I was reading some old threads that mentioned Jennifer Harley Chalmers was available for coaching, and was very good at talking to wives who weren't sure about whether they wanted to do the Marriage Builders program. However, I don't see her listed on the coaching page on the web site. Does anyone know whether she is still available for Marriage Builders coaching, and if so, how to reach her?

Hi, FanPalm. Welcome to Marriage Builders!

I don't know if Dr. Chalmers is presently coaching or not, but you can contact the Marriage Builders office and ask. Their email address and phone number are here:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/contact-us.htm

I had to learn how to motivate a wife who wasn't sure about whether she wanted to do the Marriage Builders program - mine! What's your situation? Maybe we can help. I strongly recommend the radio show and the forum, plus coaching as needed.

I would double check with the office; but I believe Steve is the only coach now. I believe Dr. Chalmers now runs fourgiftsoflove.org and I am not sure she does personal phone coaching.

Thanks for your response, markos and mb_hope. (By the way, markos, I've been reading a bunch of forum posts and I've gotten a lot from your writings on here. Thank you!) Good suggestion -- maybe I should introduce myself. I would welcome any help or suggestions you might be able to provide.

I've been together with my wife for 23 years and married for 14 years. I've been reading about Marriage Builders and it resonates with me. The marriage is in a bad place right now and MB has helped me understand some of the causes. I've had a bunch of independent behavior throughout the marriage, and I have problems with lovebusters and not meeting her needs.

Our relationship was great for much of it but it's taken a bad turn for the past 6 years. There were three major events where I did tremendous harm. The first: 6 years ago we had a big fight; I wanted more sex and was upset about it and I told her that if we didn't fix the sex problem I worried it would tear us apart within two years. She quite understandably took that as an ultimatum, which didn't go over well, and we had a big fight. I had adopted a number of problematic views about marriage from several books, and was using porn, which were deeply harmful to me and the marriage. For the next 6 months I was a jerk to her. Her responses during that time were patient and mature -- looking back, I am thoroughly impressed with how well she handled what must have been a really tough situation -- but it had a huge and lasting effect. She says that from her perspective after about 6 months I changed somehow and came out of it and was a good husband, but from my perspective that was only external and my problematic attitudes remained. The second: 3 years ago she developed breast cancer. Near the end of her treatment, there was a month where I was abusive, made a bunch of mean and harmful comments, and annoying and hurtful actions. It culminated in an experience at the park where she was having an existential moment, unsure whether she'd even survive, and was trying to get her to kiss me even though she wasn't interested and I groped her. After that, she tells me something snapped in her and we've been severely disconnected ever since. That month happened about a month after she stopped having sex with me due to the cancer treatment. The third: a little over a year ago, we were having a fight and I lunged at her in anger, which was very scary for her.

Overall, my actions have hurt her badly. She is really hurting.

I've realized that I have problems with passive aggressiveness, with selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, dishonesty, and withdrawing in the face of conflict. I also have engaged in too much independent behavior during the marriage, haven't met her needs, and have had too much of a Renter attitude. I think I've made progress with the passive aggressiveness and selfish demands and anger but have a long way to go on everything else -- but that's just my self-assessment and I don't know whether it's accurate. From my reading of Marriage Builders, I think it could really help me. If my wife is interested I'd love it if she would join me, but I think she has concerns about it... but in any case I would like to follow it for my own sake.

That's the broad strokes. As this message has already gotten quite long, I'll follow up with another message with some specifics of where we are right now.

How can you all help? I certainly would welcome any advice or education you might be able to offer me. Perhaps also accountability, if that is something you think could work over this forum. Finally, perhaps you might be able to help with specific questions I have from time to time. Or, maybe you will have other suggestions how you can help. I'd be grateful for any help anyone in this community can offer; and in any case, I'm so grateful for all the wisdom found in this program and on this website and forum; it is huge.

Where we are right now: I don't know, exactly. Yesterday she told me she is done, and wants either a separation or a divorce and will let me know in a week or so. Later that night she asked me to find a way to avert it. This morning she told me she would do Marriage Builders with me as a gift to me, so I wouldn't have to always wonder if it would have saved our marriage. We'll see where things go. It sure seems like this has taken a tremendous toll on her, and she's told me she thinks the only way to heal is to leave the relationship. It's also been difficult on me.

Some thoughts on the matters of the day:

I'm a little concerned about her doing the Marriage Builders online program if she doesn't see benefit in it for her: I don't want to force or pressure her to do something that she doesn't want to do or feel like she has to do it out of guilt. I don't want her to feel resentful that she was forced into it. I truly think it could help us both and might save the marriage, but I can understand how she might have a different view. Anyway, I am currently thinking that I gladly accept her offer and sign us up for the online program, but briefly mention this concern. I'm certainly grateful that she'd be willing to do it. I am not sure if any of you have any advice on that or how to approach that conversation. Do you have any suggestions about what might be a good way to find out if there are any benefits to her that speak to her?

I can share with you her complaints about me, if you think that's productive. The primary ones, if I understand correctly, are that she thinks I have a mental illness, and that I'm not doing enough to address it; I'm not providing her enough appreciation, especially given how I've treated her in the past; she feels disconnected and has for a long time; she doesn't think she can heal within the relationship, and she's concerned about the effects on her health; I'm arrogant, and need to approach her from the position of someone who is emotionally junior; I take too long to address problems. I don't know whether I'm getting that list right. She's been so disconnected for such a long time and I think she's super tired.

Two specific complaints that I think I need to address in the next day or two: For most of my adult life I've been an atheist but over the past 6 months or so I've been studying about Christianity and some of what I've read has spoken to me in a powerful way. She's mentioned in the past that she's uncomfortable with that but I've continued reading and learning about it and talking to my dad about it (independent behavior). This morning she raised it again, and I mentioned that I'm not sure I've gotten that right; I suspect I might have gotten it wrong. I mentioned that it is significant for me and asked her if she'd be willing to negotiate about it and I tried brainstorming some options; she said that any religion that involves a God is a dealbreaker for her (though Buddhism might be OK). So, after some thought, my takeaway is that I need to stop studying and reading about Christianity and avoid any further involvement or engagement with it. I can't wipe clean from my brain the Christian teachings I've already learned or the effect they've had on me so far, but I can change my actions and stop further studying and learning about it. I'm sad about that but if I understand POJA accurately it seems like it is necessary, as my continued study despite her discomfort has been a violation of POJA. I'm concerned and sad about removing something that I think has been beneficial for me and has been helping me learn to be a gentler, more generous, more patient, better person, so this feels like it will be a loss for me, though I can understand why she'd be concerned. Another is that she is concerned about weekly phone calls I've been having with my dad; he's been helping me develop a self-improvement plan, providing some accountability on elements of the plan, giving me advice, answering my questions about Christianity (he is Christian), and I've also been just chatting with him. I've scheduled a conversation with her to talk about that. I can see that I will need to cancel the weekly call with my dad if she is uncomfortable with it (which I suspect she is), and that we'll need to talk about whether there's any form of interaction with him that she feels good about. I'm discouraged about that because he's been supportive to me and I think I've gotten a lot out of my calls with him; and I also suspect my stronger connection with him might be helpful for my issues with dismissive avoidant attachment style; but I think it's necessary. Do you think I'm thinking about those in the right way? Do any of you have any advice or thoughts about either of those specific matters, or about the rest of this?

(I don't want to lend the impression that the latter two are necessarily the primary issues overall -- there are other complaints that I suspect are long-standing and broader issues and will be more challenging to solve -- I'm just mentioning two specific issues that I plan to address immediately, in case you have any immediate feedback that will help with those two.)

Yes, sign up for the online program! You will have access to Dr. Harley, and he is GREAT for wives who are feeling reluctant. Dr. Harley will be her advocate. Tell her that you want to give her a wonderful, beautiful marriage in which all her needs are met and in which she is protected from any abuse from you. Tell her you believe this program will help you do that.

What does she believe you have?
Dr. Harley is a Clinical Psychologist that used to run mental health clinics.

Thanks!

I am not entirely sure what mental illness she believes I have, and I'm not sure she is 100% certain, either. Depression is probably the leading candidate. She has also asked about others as well (most recently, complex PTSD). Symptoms: she says my personality changed about 6 years ago; I had been having daily thoughts of wishing I was dead; I've been having a harder time getting things done; I have gut problems, and she thinks those are related. I've been working with a therapist and he says that while I have some of the elements, he wouldn't diagnose me with depression based on what he sees; that it sounds like I had or might have had depression in the past but he didn't know me then. I saw a psychiatrist for one visit and he seemed confident I was suffering from depression. I am not persuaded. I think the primary problems are my habits and attitudes and beliefs.

That being the case I would definitely like you to hear Dr. Harley's opinion... I think you should send an email to Dr. Harley and Joyce and go on the radio show. Dr. Harley's able to see through a lot of the overdiagnosed situations in the therapy world, but he also doesn't shy away from giving you a plan that should yield results if that's what you need!

Markos, thank you for your encouragement. The Harleys were kind enough to have me on the radio show last week and they were helpful. I've signed up for the online program and am watching their videos and I find their materials very helpful. I think she is concerned it will be used to control her and so is very wary. She has asked me to move out and I have told her I will, so that is one step that is next for me. We'll see where things go from here.