Also I agree... it was wrong of me to do it anyway, and lie about it, knowing he didn’t like it. I will not proceed this way moving forward.

You don't 'need his permission to drink, you are not a child. But would you want to do that if it made him unhappy? That is the problem. If my husband smoked, it would make me unhappy and make lovebank withdrawals. He doesn't need my "permission," but we don't try to make each other unhappy. The premise of the policy of joint agreement is to never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy. You don't need his permission, you are grown woman. But do you want to do something that makes him unhappy?

It sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to follow the POJA. Am I wrong about that?

The Policy of Joint Agreement is:

Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse


That is great example of something he should stop doing because it makes you unhappy. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse..."


Well, you can't tell him what to do, but you can - and SHOULD - tell him that makes you unhappy so he can stop doing it. He can't very well stop doing that if you don't tell him it bothers you. A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. Sacrifice is bad for marriage. As you can see, people who sacrifice keep score and when the score is not even, resentment ensues. A better solution is to never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you both.


You are a grown woman and already have the freedom. You have the freedom to do anything legal even if it makes your spouse unhappy. But why would you want to make your spouse unhappy when it wrecks marriages? That makes no sense.

I would also suggest that thinking you, an adult woman, need "permission" from your husband is part of the cause of the imbalance of power in your relationship.

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things
she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed.
But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated
because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I
make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and
only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has
recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive.
I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some
situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think
she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and
bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are
received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is
regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In
bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant --
something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and
disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing
love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply
giving you accurate information about the present state of your
relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are
losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be
worse in the long run.

More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and
you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial
objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by
behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of
recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and
you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the
number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If
you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and
eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and
she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem
to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be
more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues
that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the
more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her
happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy
(an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being
defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and
that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to
care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address
your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Did you read the article on the Policy of Joint Agreement?



THE POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT

I see what you are saying, and no, I do not want to make him unhappy. That is why I am sticking to his rules. But am I enthusiastic about sticking to the rules? No. So what am I supposed to do? How do I make myself feel enthusiastic about it... or maybe my feelings will change after awhile?

He is not open to brainstorming other solutions with this issue, that is what I was meaning when I said he wasn’t approaching this issue with the PoJA. He is making the call about it, and for this issue, I might as well be his child. I think that’s the thing that complicates it... if he didn’t lay down rules for me to “obey or else”, then maybe I’d be much more enthusiastic about making him happy. Right now, it just feels like he wants to control and threaten with consequences.

Maybe once we get into a proper habit of dealing with other conflicts differently then maybe this one will follow or my feelings will change to be more enthusiastic about it. He still wants to exercise the husband as leader and wife needs to obey for this issue.

But that rule is the POJA, not "his rule," which is what you have agreed to. You don't need to make yourself enthusiastic about it. The rule is: "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse." So you are not doing anything.


If you are trying to force him to endure your drinking, then you are trying to control him. His asking you to not to do something that makes him unhappy is not controlling, but trying to force him to put up with it IS. I am not sure how you would negotiate drinking if he is adamantly against it, like I am with smoking. However, when you both get more skilled with negotiating, you might be able to find a solution that makes you both happy.

I want to emphasize again that you are not his child and don't need permission. But if you are following the POJA, it comes back to this rule: "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse."


Will he speak to Dr Harley about this?

I’m still confused and not understanding how I am currently NOT following the POJA. I am not forcing him to endure my drinking, nor do I ever want to. Before, I was hiding it... and that was wrong and I am no longer doing that. Currently I am doing nothing. I am sticking to his rules surrounding alcohol. He is actually not adamantly against drinking at all, but adamantly against me breaking his “alcohol rules”. In fact, just to make things better for our dates, I have stopped ordering a glass of wine. I want our dates to be happy for both of us, and even though ordering a glass on our dates is "allowed", I decided it was better not to. I guess really, what I was hoping to negotiate, is the legalism with which the rules are enforced. Some of them just do not make sense to me. There are occasionally grey areas or awkward moments surrounding these rules and his enforcement of them. For instance, do I really need permission and to show my receipt every time I buy a bottle of marsala for my chicken recipe? If someone brings a bottle of wine to a dinner party at our house (which happens quite often!) and we don’t finish it, do I really have to throw the rest of the bottle down the sink after they leave? My cousin will be visiting next month and every time I visit her, we typically enjoy a glass of wine together when we eat dinner. This will be the first time she visits me at my home, and I will have no wine in the house. If it comes up and she suggests we to get some, I will have to explain that we can, but she needs to be the one to purchase it and bring it into the house. It’s these things that really get to me and he is unwilling to discuss or ever bend on.

He was not happy about what Dr. Harley had to say on the radio. He is, however, open to looking at some of our other issues and trying to work them out mutually according to the POJA, but doesn’t feel like all conflicts can be worked out this way. Honestly, his reaction to the POJA was more hopeful than I expected... and I am encouraged that he didn’t dismiss it completely. However, he does think there will be times that he has the Biblical right to make a final call on something and he is not willing to discuss this with anyone, and especially. Dr. Harley.

In other words, he is not enthusiastic about you drinking. You don't need his permission. A grown woman does not need permission from her husband.

It sounds like he is never enthusiastic about you drinking or buying alcohol at all. Is that correct? I thought you wanted to follow the POJA? Isn't that the rule that you wanted to follow? If so, then drinking should just be completely avoided.

Of course not, because he is not willing to give up his power over you. But he does not have power unless you give it to him.

I've been following this thread carefully, and wanted to bounce off you, Melody, a different perception on the POJA in this instance.

Kimber is not enthusiastic about being forced to "obey" her husband. His demanding such is making large withdrawals in her account. It would seem the default of POJA would be to state "I'm not enthusiastic about obeying you" so obeying him would be off the table.

What about putting a broader negotiation out on the table? Kimber could acknowledge to him that he's not enthusiastic about her occasional glass of wine, so for now that's off the table. However, she's not enthusiastic about his gaming, so by the same rules that's off the table.

He may find some enthusiasm to negotiate on her issues when his issues are now also at the same level as hers.

Thoughts?

Exactly, and that is what I have tried to convey to her over and over again. She is contributing to the imbalance of power in her marriage by pretending she has to obey her husband like a child. She is an adult woman. She is not being "forced" at all. That is her own choice and if she is going to participate in such treatment, she needs to either stop it or take accountability.

Finally understanding HOW to stop participating in such treatment was so empowering to me. It took me a while to figure out how to translate the concept into action.

The "Giver and Taker" and POJA concepts were key to my making the connection. It was easy to recognize the large withdrawals after being coerced into giving. Those concepts gave me the words inside my brain to help me understand how to stop the dynamic from happening.

So Kimber, you've put your finger on a dynamic here. For my part, I would not be enthusiastic about physical intimacy while role playing father/daughter relationship. That would seem gross to me.

Perhaps I'm oversensitive to this dynamic because my xH did enjoy dipping down a generation or two in his sexual tastes to the point it caused him some legal problems. So for me, that's just a no-go. Any father/daughter role playing in my marriage (including 'obey') is just off the table.

Melody, what are your thoughts on this?

I don’t think you are being oversensitive @Sunnytimes, this is probably why I am so aversive to any kind of intimacy.

That being said, I am on my way to have lunch with 5 of my girlfriends and need to put this out of my mind for a bit! I hope you lovely ladies have a fantastic day and thank you for offering me your advice and admonishment. Next counseling session is on Thursday next week. Please pray for us. Thank you!

Accidental double post.

Well, the whole L&R concept you were shamed into probably plays a part as well, where a wife is scolded for not providing sex upon demand because it just takes a FEW MINUTES and it's a NEED your husband has that only his wife can meet!! The concept of a wife's needs, or the idea that she too is a sexual being, doesn't make it to L&R's pages.

I saw a wonderful quote that helped tie a bow on my thoughts about all of the made up, vain doctrines of man in that book (and others like it) that make three verses into 250+ page tomes with such hair splitting detail on doctrines we must be bound to an account of those 3 verses:


Dr. Harley's methods are instead beautifully entwined with the WHOLE counsel of Scripture. Dr. Harley's wisdom gives us practical advice on the HOW of applying the full counsel of Scripture to your marriage.

You won't find one thing he advises husbands or wives to do to contradict any other verses in the Bible. Where L&R demands a wife's dutiful respect (aka "obedience") and duty sex that her husband takes from her, Dr. Harley rightly looks to a Biblical model of marital connection in Song of Solomon.

Dr. Harley applies the love chapter to both genders equally. L&R claims the man is responsible to "love" his wife, but seems to cut the love chapter out of their Bible on how the man might actually love his wife. It's almost like L&R cuts the few marriage verses out of the Bible and constructs a whole new one for just those verses since so much of what it teaches is in stark dissonance to the rest of the Bible. But sometimes things that are so hard and sacrificial seem to be "Biblical" so people don't challenge their filters when they read this dung (this should pass the filters, since Paul uses that word in the Bible ..lol.)

Dr. Harley doesn't cut husbands out of "esteem others better than yourself".

Dr. Harley doesn't cut wives out of the Proverbs verses that tell us how to treat an angry person.

Dr. Harley's work documents a methodology to allow all of the pieces to come together in a way that builds a union of joy mirroring that of Christ and his church. He is not adding doctrines to the Bible. His books have a very different tenor to them than the gnat straining, vain doctrine books.