An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.

Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.

History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.

Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.

Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.

Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).

Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).

She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.

She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.

Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.

She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.

This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.

My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.

I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.

There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.

I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.

Hi DD, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Your marriage is salvageable, but only if you directly address the problems. The biggest problems are a) your anger issues and b) her serial cheating. Your wife has poor boundaries around men and as such, has become a serial cheater. You could have been the perfect husband and she still would have had affairs because she allows other men to meet her needs. While a bad marriage might make an affair more tempting, there is nothing you could have ever done that would overcome her poor boundaries. It is really important you understand this if you move forward in this marriage.

There is a chance to save your marriage if you follow certain steps and she ends all contact with this OM for life. The most important step is to expose her affair. I would encourage you to snoop on her and find out the depth of her affair. But everyone should know about it, your kids, family, close friends, the OM’s wife and family. I would demand that she end all contact and that your kids stop playing with theirs. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure is like bringing in a crowd of onlookers to watch the crackheads get high. Exposure is the most important first step towards recovery; go read the link in my signature.

Exposure is part of what we call Plan A. The objective of Plan A is to bust up the affair while presenting yourself as the most attractive spouse. You should convey to her that you would be willing to meet her needs and be a great husband if she ends ALL contact with the OM.

And before I go any further, I would encourage you to stop saying you are “separated.” You are not. That is a pretend status concocted by wayward spouses to justify pursuit of an affair. They move into the guest room, declare themselves “separated,” and then carry on an affair. Sometimes right in front of their family. Don’t give credence to that silly game. You are not “separated.” You are married and live at the same address.

“ Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.”

Snooping is not “passive aggressive.” If you suspect your spouse is hiding something from you, it is a necessity. Snooping allows you to see problems in your marriage early on that are being hidden. You have a right to know everything she does since her actions directly affect you and your children. In your case, you already know she has hidden much in the past and has engaged in destructive, secretive behavior. Your spouse does not have a right to privacy to destroy your marriage behind your back. So I would encourage you to put aside your negative views of snooping.

Thank you, Melody.

I have asked her to stop all contact and not just because I am asking, but because the OM and his wife are attempting to mend their marriage as his wife goes through treatment for alcoholism. What more can I do here? I don't even know how to think about this let alone identify possible approaches.

As for the kids and demanding that they stop playing together, that seems too harsh. If we can keep the children and contact regarding the children to just me and the OMs wife, while stopping contact between my wife and the OM, is that sufficient?

I don't believe that my wife will even want to hear that I will meet her needs and be a great husband. In fact, I think it may cause her to resent me more. This has been a long time coming and she has indicated that shes been thinking about this for a while. I'm thinking along the lines of avoiding giving her signals that I am pursuing here and potentially pushing her further away. Then again, absent moving out, can I push her even further away than she already is?

She wants to use mediation rather than attorneys and I am resisting,but she is not initiating it and seems to be putting it all on me to start the divorce even though that's not what I want.

I continue to poke around, but have limited my snooping. The pain and the suffering that I feel after reading what she writes and texts to others is very hard to cope with.

I have hurt my wife tremendously in this marriage whether by causing her emotional pain, leaving her feel unsafe and uncared for, and her loneliness in this marriage.

Does his wife know all about the affair? Has the affair been exposed to everyone? The approach is to demand she end all contact with him. One thing you can do is approach the OM and ask him to leave your family alone.


The success of your marriage depends on complete and total no contact. Your children can get new playmates, they can't replace their parent's marriage. Your marriage is the most important thing to your children. If you get divorced, their lives will be irreparably harmed. Your children will understand and see the reasons if you explain the WHY. And yes, they should be told all about your wife's affair and why it is wrong.


AS long as she is still in touch with her OM, it will be hard to meet her needs, but you should still try because she will be more open to you as her affair dies. You need to tell her that you don't want to be divorced and that you don't want the old marriage back, but a great marriage where you are both happy. You need to paint this picture. She may reject it at first, but if you are a broken record, you will plant the seed.


Just don't cooperate at all. Tell her you are interested in recovery, not divorce.

Your main focus should be on 2 things, being the best husband possible and running off the OM. The best way to run him off is exposure and constant pressure. OM are cowards who don't like trouble.

I would step this up immensely. She has been very destructive and you need to know what is going on. I understand it is tough, but it is tougher not knowing because you don't have an opportunity to address the problems.


I understand. And she has done far worse. But if she will end her affair, you can create a marriage where you are both safe from the harmful behavior of each other. We can help you with this.

I would suggest telling her that you want to have a passionate, romantic SAFE marriage with her where you don’t hurt each other any more. Tell her you won’t go along with “separation” game anymore; you are very married and live at the same address. Ask her to end all contact with the OM and move back into your bedroom.

She will tell you to go to hell at first, but you need to plant these seeds. Be a broken record with all of the above while you work to expose the affair and run off the OM.

I wonder what telling her that I won't go along with separation means in practice, though?

One important detail that I left out and didn't remember until just now, when she told me on fathers day that she wanted to separate, she also indicated that she wanted to move out. And that was plan going forward. We all would go back to our home state for summer vacation, I would stay a week, her two and half weeks, and the boys going to camp for a week and change and then when she came home, she'd be moving out.

When she did come home from vacation, we went to a MC session and she explained that she changed her mind, that she didn't trust leaving the boys with me while she moved out. It was weird because she was looking at places, talking to her friend about living together. I suspect it was mostly because she couldn't afford it. But, that's what happened.

I suppose I were to tell her that I am no longer willing to go along with a separation that she would just move out.

One of the key reasons that waywards do this pretend "separation" is so they can pursue other people from the guest room. You don't want that to happen. You need to be loud and clear that you are very married and nothing has changed. So, in practice you are telling her she is very married and not free to pursue new relationships. It is also a reality check for her. She is lost in the fog, which is why she even came up with this pretense.


She is not serious about "separating" so she decided to do a pretend separation and hope you would go along. You shouldn't do so.


She would have already moved out if she was serious. She is not serious.

A key trait of wayward spouses is talking about doing things but never doing them. They are very double minded and confused.

A warning about marriage counselors. They are typically little more than divorce counselors and do not know how to save marriages. They are downright destructive when there is an affair involved because they don't understand the FOG, which is the high that comes with affairs. They give marriage wrecking advice and validation to the wayward spouse's foggy ideas that harms the marriage. Many advocate "trial separations" which are devastating to marriages. MC's have a higher divorce rate than the general population, so I would keep this in mind if you are going to see a "marriage counselor."

The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, a clinical psychologist who specializes in saving marriages after an affair. He has written a book Surviving an Affair, that many of us here have used to save our marriages. Just know that the advice you get here will be dramatically different from what you would get from a marriage counselor.

Okay. I can only imagine the response that would result if I asked her to return to our bedroom. She has unsolicited twice now said that she would not be returning to the marital bed or our bedroom. But I see what you're saying. Basically, we are married and the expectation is that you're not free to pursue other relationships. That's establishing a boundary, but what happens if she violates that boundary? I guess I'm in a position to make a choice and change my mind about not divorcing her.


Without anger or confrontation, how do I not go along with it?

Just let her know that you are not separated and won't pretend any more. You are both very married and still live at the same address. Tell her you love her and would like her to move back into the bedroom.


Without anger or confrontation, how do I not go along with it?[/quote]

Tell her what I said above. Don't be angry about it.


Did you read the rest of my posts? I don't see any response to them, especially the post about exposure.

The OMs wife knows. The OMs wife and OM were having a very difficult time in their marriage which is how the OM and my wife started connecting. The OMs wife suffered a brain injury years ago and over the last year developed a bad drinking problem. Just before I found out about my wife and the OM's "feelings for each other", he had told me that he'd given his wife an ultimatum that she clean up the drinking or they were done and he was trying to get her into rehab (with my wife's help!).

The OM told his wife two days after I confronted the OM and my wife. I have been in touch with the OM's wife (these are very close family friends of ours) and while I told her initially only about the I love you texts, I didn't say anything about the showering text. I stupidly assumed that he would be honest and that my wife would be honest. The OMs wife wrote a letter to my wife wherein she encouraged my wife not to abandon the friendship with the OM because they worked so hard on developing it. I was beside myself, wtf?

In the meantime, the OMs wife and I have discussed our situations and I have stated more than once that if the OM and my wife can't keep in contact if she hopes to mend her marriage. That the "feelings" will reignite every time they interact. Finally, a week ago I told her about the showering text. I reiterated that I didn't want a divorce and that if her husband and she wanted to mend their marriage then there shouldn't be contact. She responded by saying that she didn't care if my wife and her husband were talking 'cuz she could only control herself...can you believe it?

So the OMs wife knows. Some of my wife's friends know of her "inappropriate relationship" with the OM. Some of her family knows that we are "separated" but I don't know if they know about her "feelings" for the OM. To be honest, based on other reading, including Divorce Busters, I haven't been inclined to explicitly expose this to her family or other friends.


They knew the night I found out. I told them that their mother was choosing another man. Boy was she mad about that, she thinks I traumatized the kids by exposing her affair to them so clearly.


I have planted that seed and when any talk of divorce or the marriage comes up I reiterate that I don't want a divorce.


I have thought the last 2 days about contacting the OM and getting together with him to talk. First, to tell him to end contact so he can focus on his own marriage; and second, if he's really working on that, then to help me repair mine. He has a lot of influence with her.

So this is where you should start. Exposure is the most effective weapon you have against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it, using the steps outlined in my Exposure 101 thread will inflict a blow to the affair. It sounds to me like the affair has been somewhat normalized with all of you, and I would change that if you want to save this. I would reach out to her family and friends and tell them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. I would also stop your kids from being around her kids. An affair and a divorce is "traumatic" to kids, not losing friends because the parents have behaved inappropriately. Your kids are being taught that adultery is no big deal. That is the wrong lesson to teach them.

Marriage Builders is a radically different program from DB. Keeping an affair secret is about the worst thing you can do since affairs thrive on secrecy. You will never save a marriage if you are an enabler. Dr Harley is a trained psychologist with 45 yrs experience and he calls exposure the "most important first step towards recovery." You won't get DB advice here and that is why so many DB refugees end up here.


Her AFFAIR has traumatized them, not the truth. Kids can handle the truth, they can't handle lies and affairs.


I would expose his affair to his family and friends on facebook [use the steps outlined in the exposure 101 thread in my signature] and then reach out to him and tell him to never contact your wife again. I wouldn't address his marriage at all, he is not your friend. He is the enemy of your marriage and your children's family. I would take a more serious approach to running this dirty rat OFF. He is not a friend and he is not a person who uses reason.

This is bad advice. Here is what Dr Bill Harley says about exposure. I will add that those of us here in recovered marriages attribute that in part to exposure:



In your situation, the affair has been almost normalized and you and the other betrayed spouse are very foggy. You are playing along with a pretend "separation," your kids still play with his, and the OM's W is all in favor of their affair. Every adult in this situation is fogged out and in dire need of a dose of reality. Exposure will help you all see the affair for what it really is when you see yourselves through the eyes of others. It is like bringing in a crowd of people to the crack house to watch the crack heads get high. It ruins the high!

The interaction they have now is via email, though I don't know the frequency. I caught one email (she deleted them all) yesterday wherein she email the OM to tell him about a panic attack she had the night before. He thanked her for sharing and then asked how far she ran.

I'll read through the exposure thread....thanks!

Follow-up...does the exposure work even when the wayward spouse believes that they're done and/or that there was not or is not a strong foundation to the marriage?

Of course. The affair thrives on secrecy, getting it out into the open is ruinous. Exposure will hasten its death. However, another problem I see is your complacence. Your wife is still having an affair and it seems not to bother you at all. Your complacence comes across as a lack of caring. If you really care about your marriage, it is important that you start taking action. I would expose the affair, using the tips in my exposure thread and then DEMAND that she cut off all contact with this man. I would then confront him and tell him to stay away.

Have you read the Exposure 101 thread yet?

Tonight was simply maddening, though. Had my car at the auto shop that needed to be picked up and she offers to give me a ride...cool. On the way over, I get the, well, we have a moment without the kids and I'd like to talk about mediation. She then goes down the road of starting mediation now so that by next summer we can dissolve the marriage and the kids don't have to adjust while they're in school. According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM.

I basically just let her talk and didn't reply. She kept on trying to persuade me that mediation was the best approach so that we could avoid the expense of attorneys and avoid a bitter, drawn out divorce fight...unless, she says, that is what I want.

I reiterated, again, that I want neither mediation or a divorce. That I'm not going to divorce her right now and would prefer remaining married. So she took me down the road asking why I would want this marriage (this being our crappy marriage where I had anger problems and would isolate and withdraw). I explained I wanted a different marriage and she banged me with, well, why, why do you want to stay married to me. She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.

Here's the real kicker...As she was talking about wanting to move on with mediation, she said that she wanted a chance to be happy with someone who wants her as a companion. I took a few moments and let her go on before telling her that I want to be and would be that companion. She smirked and sniffed and told me that that's not what I have been showing her recently because while she's been in crisis mode about her job, finding a new job and having panic attacks, I haven't been a kind friend. When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty and she responded that yeah, I knew, but that I wasn't doing anything about it. I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce and that for my well-being I was detaching to protect myself. Of course, her reply now is well, why wait to divorce, why not end it since we're both detaching. **** her. That was bull****, man.

Somewhere in this conversation she asked if I wanted her to find a mediator or if we should find one together. I told her that this is her thing and if she wants to pursue then move and at some point I'll have to become a participant, until then, I'm not initiating a divorce.

For our entire relationship I was the giving her the pep talks, encouraging her, supporting her and she was grateful for that. Now, because I am 180'ing her she's complaining that I'm not someone she can ask for help or for support since I'm detaching. Well, tough ****, this is what separation looks like.

It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game in the living room or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys. I'm not going to emotionally invest myself just so she can turn it on me the next day with another demand that I start divorce proceedings and telling that she wants to move forward with dissolving the marriage