It's real important that you differentiate between things you have complete control over and things you don't. You don't really have a choice when it comes to depression but you certainly DO have a choice about having angry outbursts and withdrawing. If you blame shift the depression for your bad behavior, what is she supposed to expect the next time you get depressed? Do you see how that makes her feel hopeless?

Depression might make bad behaviors more tempting, but you have ALWAYS had the choice to be angry or not. So this cannot be connected in your mind or in your explanation to her. They are separate things.

1. you had depression - you are treating that. Depression is also extremely hard for your spouse
2. you INDULGED in thoughtless behavior, angry outbursts and withdrawals and will never do it again.

Don't say you are "working on" these changes. Say you have MADE those changes. The truth is that if you stop having angry outbursts and train your brain to RELAX, your brain will actually rewire itself and you will never go there again.


Ok whatever. It doesn't matter to her WHY, it just matters that it stops and that you tell her it has stopped.


Emphasize that you HAVE eliminated those destructive behaviors.

That's great! "away from screens " what does that mean?

About the flowers. Your wife might have seen them as a "waste" when you had a great relationship and demonstrated affection in other ways, but that has all changed. I used to feel the same way about my husband until we hit a place where I felt VERY UNCARED FOR. The flowers demonstrated his care for me and it WORKED. IT meant so much to me that he went to that trouble. In your case, your wife feels very uncared for and went through a terrible scene last night. [of her own making] I actually think it would be a loving gesture to go buy some flowers for her and write in the card:

"wife, I just want you to know I care for you so much and it hurts to see you in such pain. I hope I have a chance to make it up to you someday. All my love, Dr D"

She will probably throw them in the trash, but she will remember this gesture as her anger and affair fog wears off. I PROMISE YOU.

One of our former members put it best:
Depression is a syndrome. Angry outbursts and withdrawal ARE not. That is my point. And it is important you know the difference and can articulate this to her.

Another reason I feel so hopeful is that your wife is in a state of CONFLICT and not a state of withdrawal. That is a good thing! https://www.marriagebuilders.com/conflict.htm

I don't even know how to start this conversation that you suggested above. She was out yesterday afternoon and evening with her friend, so didn't see much of her.

I want to show her empathy, talk to her about the changes I have made and am making. But I think she's just not interested in even taking to me.

Yeah, not a good day. She wanted to talk about separate accounts, separate phone plans and I said that I wasn't to talk about that. So that led to a conversation about divorce and how everything I am doing is too late. She's choosing not to work on the marriage. Choosing to have an opportunity to be a companion with someone else, to be intimate with someone else.

I suggested that she get moving then on divorce. She said she tried with mediation. I said just to get on with it. She said she is.

I tried talking about taking a step in the direction of repairing the marriage, to follow a plan. Nope. Just a wall.

I can imagine nothing other than this is done.

Ironically,I was just trying to explain to her that I was not making a conscious choice to be angry and do damage to our family intentionally.

She firmly believes that I chose to be angry and chose to wreck our marriage.

Damn it... I am not equipped to have conversations with my wife. This feels so frigging hopeless. I want to be a good person. I want to just talk but always always get trapped into an argument.

How can I Plan A when she is so adamant that this is over? How do I even attempt to show care and affection when I am told over and over that it's too late and that the thought me and intimacy wants to make her vomit?

I'm just not equipped for this...

I don't even know why I try talking to her. There is no redemption in this, no more chances, no more tries.

It very much sounds like you were making excuses for your angry behavior. And yes, you did CHOOSE your behavior. If she can't trust that you have control over your behavior, then you are not safe.

What is happening when she approaches you with these discussions? Are you losing your temper? It almost sounds like she is baiting you and you are taking the bait.

You HAVE TO HAVE patience. This will not come overnight. Just because you approach her with a plan does not mean she will be receptive today. This will take some time to soften her up by showing her your changes.

I guess I was making excuses for my anger and withdrawal. I tried opening them by acknowledging that while I was not intending to wreck the marriage, I realize now that we're marriage wreckers.

I'm not losing my temper in there conversations. But it sure does feel like I'm Inna debate. However,I keep a calm voice, I don't judge, I calmly describe what I do or don't want.

I don't know if she's baiting me or not. It doesn't really matter, does it? I'm still sucked into a conversation that I feel I am unprepared to have and fall back on to my usual excuse-making and promises, neither of which carry credibility with her.

She simply will not allow herself to consider that we could be or have anything different than what we have had for 16 years and that is a lonely, unsafe marriage. I've been so bad to this woman, perhaps she is right, there is no chance to repair this marriage.

And now she's texting her longest-term best friend which I am sure is nothing more than how disgusted my wife is with me, how I've demonstrated, again, that I'm not a good husband, and bucking herself up to divorce me.

Want in one hand and [censored] in the other, right? No matter how much I want to do something or avoid something, I cannot control everything.

Edit - she keeps telling me that I don't love her and that my desire is for a marriage, but not her. I then get trapped in telling her I feel abut her as she stares at me in disbelief.

You are not going to convince her overnight and you really need to be more patient. The big watch out here is making excuses. She has heard that for years and all it means is: nothing will change.


She is telling you she doesn't FEEL LOVED by you. The way you show love to her is not coming across. So you can tell her you do love her, but it has never been translated effectively. It has left her feeling unloved. I would calm down and re-read that article I gave you on affection and let it soak in.

Can you re-link that article, please?

Did you not read this?

I did....I had the article open on my phone and closed all of the tabs in chrome. Thanks for relinking it. I'll read it again and dwell on it more.

So, now I remember reading this and wondering how to translate into my current situation. I'm avoiding demands, disrespect, and anger.

I think my wife is totally shut off from me expression/showing affection. In the article you linked to, Roseanne was actually willing to have Ted display affection and prepared a lost of ways that he could do so. As my wife says, the thought of me touching her makes her skin crawl. So holding hands, hugs, and affection physical touches are out.

I will stop for flowers and a small card on the way home tomorrow and give them to her after the kids go to bed.

Saw her text to her best friend...her friend thinks I am just crazy and my wife responded that she thinks I am being manipulative.

During our conversation and after my wife repeatedly told me it was over and she just wanted the divorce, I repeated that I wasn't going to talk about divorce and I wasn't going to help her with it. When she repeated that I just wanted to keep her in a bad marriage I told her that I couldn't stop her from getting a divorce. I then asked her what she was waiting for if she wanted a divorce. I then said that if she was intent on getting a divorce and wouldn't go no contact with the OM then I thought it best that she moved out. Her response was, again, that the OM went no contact with and she hasn't talked to him in a few weeks and that she would let the courts decide who stays or leaves the house. Which is weird because she's haranguing me with nonsense that absent mediation then I am willing to have the courts decide our future.

Why not give her the flowers in front of your kids?

Fear that she will admonish me in front of them or roll her eyes or start crying or otherwise refuse to accept them.

Do you think it’s best she moves out? I’d rather see you make real tangible efforts that she and the kids can see daily. You told them you were going to fight for your marriage. They need to see that in action so they will know how to fight for their families as adults.