My husband and I have been in counseling for over a year now without making much progress. A few months ago, our therapist suggested that we move to individual counseling. She has recognized some emotional abuse coming from him and I stayed with her while he went to another counselor. She is helping me be more assertive in situations with him... and she is on my side. I am familiar with the MB principles and have shared them with her. She is completely on board with us trying to find ways that we can both feel enthusiastic about solutions to our issues, but he has been completely detached from trying to come together with me. He is controlling and manipulative and treats me like a child a lot of the time. I am doing the best I can right now to gain some strength from my own therapy and pray that he will eventually be helped by his own individual therapy. I feel, and my therapist agrees, that a lot of hurt has come from my husband not allowing me to be free, and me enabling this behavior. A situation has come up that I'm just not sure how to handle in light of this dynamic and his unwillingness to come together and figure out something we are both happy about. Any advice would be appreciated!

A few years ago, I was really hurt by my church when they let me go from my job there. I had worked there for 10 years and it’s a long story but the circumstances surrounding my being let go were very hurtful. Following being let go, we continued to attend church at the same place, mainly because of the kids and their involvement with the youth. My husband has shown no interest in going anywhere else even though I have mentioned it a few times. Basically he feels like he can easily accept “the business of the church“, after watching his mom work for a church for years. He is able to separate that from worshiping there, even though I have a much harder time. I have sacrificed for my kids to continue going there and been getting my spiritual nourishment online for the most part.

This week, the topic came up again and the idea of exploring another church virtually was suggested. I was hopeful since he asked me about it. My oldest who has been most involved in our church is headed off to college and do it seems like an opportunity has opened. Especially given the pandemic, we are not really comfortable joining a congregation in person yet. It’s a great time to check out some local churches virtually and see where we might want to visit when we feel comfortable. I got excited and looked around and found one I was interested in watching that was recommended by one of my former colleagues. I put it forth to him because if he found something  about it he didn’t like or had a problem with any of their belief statements, then there’d be no reason to even check it out. He has a very fundamentalist, dare I say legalistic background and so he’s very particular about what he is comfortable concerning choosing a church. A couple of days went by and he hadn’t said anything about it so I asked. His response was that he felt going there would cause problems for us because they have a mid-week service. He knew I wouldn’t always go, but he would want me to. So he basically said if he is going to church alone, then he’d like to be the one to pick what church we go to. I’m really discouraged here. It feels manipulative and wrong to not be given a say in the matter because I won’t always go on Wednesday. I feel like whether I go to church or not on Wednesday is my choice... it has to do with me, my comfort level, my preferences. I also have some health issues that make it difficult to commit to regular attendance.

In response, I just said “ok... then you pick the church we are tuning into this Sunday.” I was calm when I responded but inside I felt anger. These are the options I feel I have. Even though I don’t like how he put this all forth, maybe he will pick somewhere that works for all of us. This doesn’t really take care of the issue of him controlling and removing me from having a say, but it would solve the issue of actually finding a church. I could be passive and prayerful, and just hope it all worked out in the end. Provided it did work out, I suppose I could live with that.

The ideal option and the one that feels best to me because it addresses his unhealthy response would be for me to ask him to compromise. We could look for a church together that we are both happy with, regardless of there being a mid-week service. I could go sometimes but not always, or virtually or something - or at least be given the freedom to choose. Hopefully he would agree to that... but what do I do if he refuses? I’m unsure how to proceed or how to lay a boundary down other than just saying that if we can’t talk about it together, I will find a church for myself (which doesn’t really feel right either). Or, going along with it but letting him know how it makes me feel and that I’m doing it resentfully.

There are a lot of other examples of ways he takes control in the relationship but this just just one example I’m facing currently. Any advice would be welxome! Thanks!

Hi Schmee, welcome to Marriage Builders. The best outcome would be for neither of you to compromise, but to find a solution that suits you both. Win/lose decisions lead to resentment and unhappiness, but win/win solutions avoid all that. That is the objective of the Policy of Joint Agreement, which is: "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse" The Policy of Joint Agreement


Marriages that won't use this concept are not usually successful because their inability to negotiate win/win solutions creates incompatibility and erodes romantic love. Please read and share the article with your husband. You can also listen to the Marriage Builders radio show and enlist Dr. Harley's help. [for free] https://www.marriagebuilders.com/marriage-builders-radio.htm

Maybe this MB approach isn’t for me then. Finding a win win just isn’t possible for my situation that I see. My options are:

Be passive and just go along with whatever my husband chooses = lose for me

Ask him to understand my need to sit out the odd Wednesday night service and try and find a church regardless of there being a mid-week service (hardly any here in the south): Lose for him

Go my separate way from my family on Sunday: really just lose lose for both of us.

Believe me, I understand the policy of joint agreement but I don’t think it fits every situation. I appreciate you copying and pasting to remind me, but I’ve read all the MB books. I’m really looking for someone to give me an example of how it could apply here for my specific situation. Something that is a win-win for both of us in this case. I do appreciate your response Melody. But I’m still unclear how to respond to him. I’m starting to think that at some point, if a win win is not possible, something else needs to be done. No option in my mind feels right.

While I can share the principles with you, I couldn't decide what would constitute a win/win for someone else. That has to be determined by your husband and you together. It seems to me that you have been tasked - all alone - with finding such a solution and that is not the way it should be. The POJA should be a negotiation where you are both brainstorming to find solutions.

The default position is to do nothing until a win/win decision is reached. That means, no church until that happens. That is the position of Dr. Harley.

Please send an email to Dr. Harley like I suggested above to enlist his help. He is very creative and may be able you both.. Did you read the link I provided?

Schmee, I want to make another point. Couples who are incompatible tend to think in very black and white terms as in "my way" or "your way," and that is the wrong way to start any negotiation. Starting off like that means the negotiation is over before it started.

While it is a hard habit to learn to be open minded enough to put aside your own pre-set desires, once learned it comes very easily. My husband and I actually had a fight in a Kroger grocery store over lettuce when we were learning to use the POJA. We worked through that until we fully understood we couldn't come into any negotiation with a set view because the objective is to find a solution that suits you both. You have had trouble with this principle, as many do, but Dr Harley can help you get over that hump. I was very independent and he helped us resolve it.

The reason that this MB approach is not for you seems to be that your husband does not want to stop being controlling and manipulative and treating you like a child (in your words). There is no care and concern for your perspectives and your happiness on his part. There is no attempt to create a relationship of extraordinary care and protection, where you are never the source of each other's unhappiness (from Dr Harley's definitions of what a marriage should be).

The policy of joint agreement would fit every situation if there were a serious desire on both parts to create a loving marriage. If the couple were desperate to escape their bad marriage and create a good one, if they both used this tool it would work. Regardless of how bad the marriage has been in the past, and of what controlling and dictatorial behaviours either of you used in the past to get your own way (such as demands, disrespect and angry outbursts), if both spouses were willing to use POJA and look for solutions that did not involve bulldozing the other into submission, and overriding the other's unhappiness and unwillingness, more solutions would be explored. Eventually you would find one that did not involve one spouse losing, and did not involve one spouse sacrificing.

The problem in your case is not with POJA and there actually being no win-win solution. The problem is that fundamentally, your husband does not believe that your perspectives should be incorporated into all decisions. To the extent that they differ from his, your perspectives are not at the forefront of his mind. If you do not agree quickly with him, the only perspectives he cares about are his own.

If you've read all the MB books (and the free articles on this website), you already know that goodwill between the spouses is essential for effective conflict resolution. You already know the four guidelines for successful negotiation, and that these include identifying the problem from both perspectives, discussing the problem and possible solutions without demands, disrespect or anger, and brainstorming with abandon until you find a solution to which you both enthusiastically agree. The problem is that your husband does not know, or does not agree with, these principles.

The problem is that despite your having been in counselling for over a year, and despite your counsellor apparently understanding the MB principles, both she and his new counsellor have been unable to tackle your husband's "emotional abuse". Instead, she has focused on teaching you to "be more assertive with him". Focusing on your assertiveness will not make for a loving marriage that uses POJA. Instead, it will only encourage tendencies for both of you to dig your heels in and become, in Dr Harley's words, duelling dictators, making the problem even worse.

I think that it's very clear from what you wrote that your husband's emotional abuse and controlling behaviour have destroyed your marriage. The problem is not with specific issues, such as church attendance, but with his whole attitude to you.

Thanks for your suggestions. I feel like I have sacrificed or compromised for years to accommodate my husbands set views and keep things peaceful. He never has been open to considering anything other than the way he sees things. He is not open to even discussing a win win that I can see. It’s his decision or I’m sinning as a wife if don’t back it up. I’m contrary, in opposition or not following Gods plan. Honestly I feel like it’s spiritual abuse. I can’t convince him of my alternate (and I believe accurate) view of Biblical headship (that it is mutual). So coming to a win win is extremely difficult with him if not impossible.

Yes this makes a lot of sense. I don’t have much to work with. Maybe I’m trying to make some of these principles work when they simply can’t.

This is exactly what I suspected and exactly how Sugarcane described. This is why I am asking you to reach out to Dr. Harley. Your issue is not the POJA, it is that your husband does not care about your feelings or your perspective. Sugarcane made a great point that trying to become more assertive with your bulldozing husband won't help the situation. Your marriage will change when your husband stops trying to bulldoze you and starts treating you as an equal. If you reach out to Dr Harley, he can help you and your husband.

The principles always work. It is your husband that is not working.

Have you ever thought about divorce? Is that why you are in counseling? [I am not advocating divorce, I am wondering if you think about it]

It is something I have only contemplated recently. I am extremely against it and would only consider it as a last resort. My husband has only been to one session with his individual counselor. Our therapist thought it would be better to deal with his issues one on one with a male counselor who has been brought up to speed on our issues. I am hoping and praying this makes a difference. My counselor is actually pretty great and suggested the move to individual therapy for exactly this reason stated above... where he just isn’t open to change. Like I said... he’s been to one session so maybe I need to allow some time. Divorce would be very challenging for me as I have health issues and I depend on a certain amount of care. Covid hasn’t helped either these days. I am in a position where I need to be extremely cautious because of underlying health conditions. My family all live in Canada. If it weren’t for the Canadian border being closed, I might have gone to stay with my family for awhile. I am looking to a time when it might be safer to do so, but I have to think of my kids too who need me here. I know all the principles, so really I’m just trying to figure out the best way to deal with this immediate situation and looking for suggestions or scenarios. Not going to church isn’t really a great option now because we go to church in our living room. I can at least be present with my family but make it clear to my husband that I’m not committed to choosing the church we choose to watch necessarily. NOT going to church would really only have an effect when we decide to go in person if that makes sense. I’m always listening to sermons and podcasts anyway these days so it isn’t like there’s a shortage of good things to listen to.

I urge you to read this article all the way through. It comes as part of Dr Harley's series about spouses dating, but it's not in itself about dating. It tells of a broken, angry couple who came to Dr Harley in despair. They did not believe their marriage could be turned around and did not believe that negotiating and POJA could help them. However, they were desperate enough to try anything that Dr Harley suggested. He describes their painful progress towards using POJA.

The reason I'm suggesting it for you is to show that a marriage can only be rebuilt if both spouses want that. If only one spouse (you, in this case) wants the marriage to change but the other does not, the task is hopeless. If your husband wants to maintain the control that he has and is indifferent to your desires and perspectives, you've got a much bigger problem that resolving specific conflicts.

You mentioned your husband's views on Biblical headship and your being a sinning wife if you do not submit. You badly both need to talk to Dr Harley to understand how the view of the submitting wife is not only destroying your marriage, it goes against Biblical teachings. I'm not knowledgeable enough to talk about this, but Dr Harley absolutely is. Please take MelodyLane's advice and write to him today, even if your husband isn't interested in doing so.

If one year ago you had both had just one free session with Dr Harley, on his radio show or in private by email, instead of more than a year's paid counselling, you would not be where you are today, "without making much progress".

Yeah...but as I say, the problem isn't really about going to church.

Thanks for answering honestly. I suspected you had thought of divorce.

The reason I want you to speak to Dr Harley is because he can often get through to thick headed husbands and he knows how to save your marriage. A therapist does not have experience saving marriages. Your husband doesn't really need individual therapy, he needs to learn how to be a better husband. While he is going off to therapy, your marriage problems are not being addressed and resolved. Dr. Harley can do both and the help is free. He is really good with husbands like yours.

And opting out of making any decisions and giving in to your husband isn't the solution. It just creates a bigger problem.

And yet here you are again, planning to do the same again; to agree to do things his way to keep things peaceful. That hasn't made you happy, it hasn't solved the problem of his abuse and it hasn't made him more considerate towards you. It hasn't helped you at all. If it had, you wouldn't be going to counselling for over a year to get relief from his emotional abuse.

Please don't do this any more, Schmee. Write to Dr Harley today.

Bingo!!

I hear what you're saying but something in me just feels like not sitting with my family during church and retreating elsewhere doesn't show a loving spirit either. I mean if they decided to listen to a church I have a problem with, that would be one thing and something different. If he chose a strict fundamental church to listen to that was against what I believe, that would be one thing too. I haven't even decided on a church yet myself... so there are options to be peaceful with all of us that I am definitely OK with until the time actually comes to choose a church to go to in person. And yes, I agree, it's not about church. There are many other examples of controlling behavior in our marriage that aren't about choosing a church, and maybe "doing nothing" around some of those would make more sense. I desire to worship with my family so if I can find a way to do that that is OK with me, I will do it. I'm really just looking ahead to what I will do in this specific instance when we return to in person church. So in that case, maybe yes... I will just stay home and listen to what I want to listen to or go elsewhere if I don't get to have a say in the choice.

Will you write Dr. Harley?

Yes