background info: i'm mid 40s, wife late 30s, two elementary age kids, married 11+ years. the marriage has had ups and downs but was pretty blissful for the period between years 2-10. the last 1.5 years have been a low point in our marriage. sex stopped almost 1 year ago (her withdrawal). i admit i have a greater responsibility for the breakdown - for a long time (starting late 2019 - definitely before the pandemic) i became more rude, disrespectful and condescending and she started withdrawing .. which became an unending cycle of arguments about the same things again and again. the lockdown through most of 2020 perhaps exacerbated these issues (but pandemic is not the cause). I feel like I started becoming more rude and disrespectful after she started withdrawing... whereas she will say the opposite, that she started withdrawing after my bad behavior. I honestly can't say what came first the chicken or the egg. I do know I never had an easy personality ... but like i said we had many very blissful years, low conflict, lots of love affection and sex .. everything positive that you would look for in a marriage.

during the period of arguments (approximately the first 6 months of 2020) any big argument we had .. I would bring up divorce. This happened 2-3 times. I know it is terrible, absolutely terrible as I never wanted a divorce but used it ... perhaps out of fear, or as a protective mechanism .. or maybe as she says i was emotionally abusive and manipulative by bringing up divorce.

starting late 2020 we both decided we should start to see a counselor to help address these issues. we spent some time together researching (I wish I found this site first !) and decided to try a very well known therapist .. we had a few sessions (2/3). during this time I felt like I was the only one taking the lessons to heart and trying to change anything, whereas she was using the therapy is a kind of justification to say she tried everything to save the marriage. its like she would listen to the therapist and not make any changes on her end. not accept any changes that I tried to make. and sadly during this time because of my frustration with her attitude to the counseling, we had another argument where like a fool i brought up divorce again. she says this was the last straw .. she believes I will never change (therapy or not) and my past behavior has given her all the justification she needs.

however I am trying hard to make positive changes .. with individual therapy as well as lot of reading and self reflection. I feel like I've made many changes in the past few months (since we started the counseling)... but she says its too late for her. she doesn't love me and hasn't felt romantically in love with me since almost the past year (I guess around the time we stopped having sex). also the interesting thing I have observed .. positive changes on my end means she has rarely had any real reason for arguments or her withdrawal in the past 6 months (since late last year when we both realized something needed to be fixed!). now every time there is even a hint of an argument ..... she brings up things I said 1-2 years ago. its like she cannot let go or move on from that period in the past when we had some terrible arguments.

last month she talked to a lawyer. per the laws in our state, we must be separated 12 months before she can file for divorce. she basically notified me of her intent and moved to a different bedroom in the house (per state laws, in house separation is acceptable). We are now on week 3 of separation. I cannot understand why she has given up on counseling so easily and doesn't want to work to save the marriage after she knows I am willing to try anything. Apart from the hurt this is going to cause our little kids, I feel like she has much to lose as she hasn't been in workforce for over a decade and her situation post-divorce will be very hard financially even with child support. I guess she is at the point she is not thinking rationally but emotionally. there is like a wall I cannot get through to her.

our counselor now ... is kind of trying to help us ease into the divorce as my wife notified her of the separation ... instead of helping us fix the marriage!

I do not think she is having an affair (physical at least) but her stubbornness to just throw everything away makes me second guess that as well.

any advice?

Welcome to MB.

Have you read Beware of Bad Counselors

Are you still fighting with her? If so, you need to stop that now. Have you read Dr. Harley's Love Busters?

Why are you so sure she isn't having an affair? Have you snooped?

i'm reading all the articles now .. i just came across this website last night and decided to post here today.

i'm trying 110% to change my bad behavior and as i mentioned above, i feel i have changed for the better since beginning of this year. but she says there is no longer any romantic love, any improvement she sees in me is good but too late. of course i argue too late for what? neither of us is dead ... we are technically still married. but its like my pleas for her to put in any effort fall on deaf ears.

as far as affair .. physical affair would be hard for her to consummate (for lack of better word) .. she is stay at home mom with two young kids who take up bulk of her time and energy. since covid (early 2020) i have been working from home. this means i know 90% of the times where she is and for the other 10% i don't doubt her whereabouts much as she is fairly open about where she is going or where she went and not much to be suspicious of.

emotional affair .. yes this could be. i have not snooped around her phone too much (but i do know the password/PIN and casually look every now and then). I feel she is smart enough to use incognito mode or other kind of apps if she were in fact cheating but i just don't know. when I casually see through her phone there is nothing of note. but I never go digging very deep into other apps on her phone or anything she may be doing using some kind of stealth/incognito mode.

is there any kind of PI or service that could find out what is on her phone / computer that would not be apparent at first glance? of course if she is having an affair i would like to find out and confront / expose it.

but assuming no affair (physical or emotional) .. what can i do? i have about 11months before she is eligible to file for divorce!

is it possible that a woman will just break up her family because she feels no romantic love anymore? or put no effort into fixing what is broken? (again assuming she does not have a side-guy waiting in the wings)

Fred, you are in the right place. Welcome.


That is pretty normal. Don't beg, don't discuss just be the best husband you can be. It is called Plan A. An estranged spouse will generally ignore improvements especially if there is a history of temporary behaviour modifications that go back to same old same old. I'm sure that makes logical sense to you. You have a huge advantage in that you are not separated, no matter how much she might claim that you are. Think about what made her fall in love with you when you were courting her and do that. Remember that a single angry word can undo months of romance because it will bring her negative feelings rushing back.


Yes you can put spyware on her phone. Post in the Operation Investigate forum. Be sure to tell them what type of phone she has. The fact that she is not locking or hiding her phone gives you a huge advantage. Generally cheaters lock their phone. Of course it is possible that she has a second phone . . .or that she is communicating in a different way.


Anything is possible but this is very unlikely especially when you have children together. Think outside the box. Is there someone that she talks about a lot or someone who visits regularly? Cheating spouses can be extremely sneaky. You can also hire a PI. The one thing you must not do is ask her or confront her if you find anything. They will take the affair much more deeply underground.

hg

Hi rightsaidfred,

I am not an expert like some of the posters, but your situation reminds me of my own way back before I discovered my wife's first affair. She was treating me very badly for months, fights out of the blue, blaming me for every problem, etc. The sweetest and most thoughtful woman began to treat me like public enemy #1. This was before I found MB. Then out of the blue she told me that she was planning to move to another town, we would be getting a divorce, and oh by the way the kids will be ok and you can visit them!

Of course my wife was having a long-distance emotional affair. It had been progressing for about 1 year at that time, building over time, but almost 100% via phone texts and mostly Skype messaging and video calls. They only physically saw each other once that entire time that I am aware of. Looking back the signs were clear, but I did not know what I was seeing. It was a male friend from university that I also knew that lived in a city across the country that we were living in then. Looking back with the clarity of distance and time, it was utterly whacky town. At the same time, my wife got into a lot of new age thinking. Whacky town became whacky world.

I suggest to secretly snoop and to also consider hiring a PI. You may be surprised what you find. And if the PI finds nothing, then even better as then your strategy to focus on Plan A has a higher success probability.

Also, have you read Dr. Harley's books and also the basic concepts, articles, and Q&A columns on this website? Also, listen regularly to the daily radio show and make it a part of your daily schedule. There is a lot to learn on how to enact a stellar Plan A to attract your wife back to the marriage. It is difficult for any spouse and can take many months to see an impact. Lovebusters is a great book to start with and is really the foundation to a successful Plan A, as removing the love busters from your side is the necessary first step.

It is really a journey, but you have at least 11 months to try and do a stellar Plan A and to start planting seeds in her mind that things can get better than now. Even then, she may or may not go ahead with the divorce. There are no guarantees of course, but barring an affair (where additional steps like exposure are needed), this is the strategy most likely to achieve the outcome you want.

Generally, women with young children - and husbands trying to meet their needs and become demonstrably better husbands - do not leave their husbands without another factor in play, i.e. affair or abuse, at least not without a lot of effort first to make it work. This is why your situation raises red flags.

Plan A is like throwing stones into a pond, they keep disappearing. But one day you suddenly see a little island appear. You have to be very patient.

With respect to your children, once you know the truth of what is behind this you will calmly tell them. But you do not know anything yet so stay in stealth mode.

as expected we have confirmed there is no infidelity. hired a PI who could not find any thing suspicious and he was able to get to her phone and reviewed each and every app and message going back almost a year. nothing .. not even likely an emotional affair. which I thought could be a possibility.

so question for all the experts here does this site offer anything for help in such scenario? i went back and read thousands of threads on this forum and it seems to be the experts here only focus on infidelity and exposing affairs. i don't think that is the reality for ALL divorces

Assuming there is no burner phone or she used a separate work notebook, then I think this is actually good as it makes the problem much, much simpler. And at least you can have some peace of mind now. This also clarifies the strategy to use.

Dr. Harley's site is not just about infidelity in marriage, you are not correct on that, although in his research and his work with tens of thousands of couples he has found it is a past or current problem in over half of marriages. There are a lot of threads in the infidelity section because people dealing with infidelity want help and are the most likely to seek it here or elsewhere. In your own situation you only sought help here once your wife was half out the door! Many men are just like you (me included!).

Dr. Harley has said that the main reason women leave men is neglect and not meeting emotional needs. Implementing a stellar Plan A is your best shot at attracting your wife back to the marriage. In your opening you mention a lot of problems in the marriage that Dr. Harley calls love busters. These have to all be removed from your behavior first before anything can improve. Have you read about Plan A on the site? Have you read the basic concepts on emotional needs and love busters?

Over time as you clean up your side of the fence and do your Plan A, you will show your wife what marriage with you can become and that you have changed. She will not believe the changes at first and may need months+ to believe before she starts to open up to you again. That is why above living-well gave the analogy of throwing stones into a pond. The stones are your actions to meet your wife's needs and to also change yourself to remove any love busters. You keep throwing in your stones, but there is no signal back that they are doing any good, so you have to expect nothing back. It is hard. But then one day the stones break through and your wife's feelings change. Dr. Harley has said he has seen this happen quickly once the romantic love thresh-hold is met. The love line is crossed and suddenly you have broken through.

At some point, you will need to also persuade her to work with you to create a great marriage that you are both happy with. Dr. Harley's program focuses on creating and maintaining romantic love, which is now absent in your marriage. This is why your wife wants a divorce, she is not in love with you, plus you love bust her making it worse, and in fact she may even hate you right now. But feelings change. Once your wife starts to be in love with you again - actually sometime before probably - divorce talk will fade away.

You have a year for your plan A and you have a lot going for you, including your wife living with you still, plus you have children together. If you want to turn your marriage into something great for you and your wife, this is the way to do it. There are no guarantees, but this is your best shot.

Lastly, be careful with the marriage counseling. Dr. Harley takes a dim view of most marriage counselors, as they focus on communication and acceptance instead of rebuilding romantic love which is what is needed to save the marriage.

rightsaidfred, on the website you can click on the link in the top right corner to listen to today's radio show (the new shows air about 3-4 times per week and they replay notable shows from previous years the other 1-2 days). In the last segment on today's show Dr. Harley talks about what to do with a reluctant wife who does not want to join her husband in using the marriage builders approach. The show will replay for 24 hours until a new show comes on, so listen ASAP so you don't miss the segment! There is also an android or i-tunes app store app if you prefer to listen on your phone.

Of course your situation is worst than the caller from today, but really that is your Plan A goal: to persuade your wife through your love bank building actions - and your stopping of love-busters - so that she reaches the point where she considers working with you on the marriage instead of divorce being the only option.

If you have read the basic concepts, read the Q&A columns, and perused the non-affair forum posters (since your PI confirmed this is probably not an affair situation), then start listening to the daily radio show. You can also write the Dr. Harley with questions (for free!), or if you want you can also consider the coaching center (there is a link on this website).

I get the point of managing and eliminating love busters. even today (1+month after she initiated divorce/separation and 6 months after I realized we had major marital issues and started counseling) this is something huge that I need to work on. I'm trying. it is extremely hard to do when there is provocation from her. Its like we have had many weeks even some months of harmony over the past two years (meaning no arguments but also no affection) .. and still her heart is like a rock, she will say something that provokes me, results in some angry words from me and undos all the progress over the past few weeks/months.

but nevertheless - love busters are clearly an issue I MUST WORK ON.

The bigger challenge for me is this. I mentioned it above also but haven't had specific guidance on how to resolve it. There is NO SCOPE to meet her emotional needs.

Affection - no, just not allowed. no hugging, kissing, touching or any tenderness allowed. been like this almost two years now. She verbalizes many times how she just doesn't love me anymore, how I broke her heart (see my original post), and how there is no scope for reconciliation

Sex - we haven't had sex in just under a year. or maybe exactly a year.

Conversation - she says she doesn't want to talk about anything. We talk about kids (very young) and that is about it. Even if I try to start a casual fun conversation she gets upset and moves away or asks me to leave her room

Recreational companionship - same as above. there is no companionship and if I try to initiate anything she actively discourages me and says she is not interested in spending time with me.

Physical attractiveness - this is something I can work on sure, anyone can work on this. But honestly I don't look much different now than 12+ years ago when we met, just a tad more grey hair and maybe 5lbs more. I'm maybe a bit above average but its not like I'm going to change into a don juan no matter what I do in this regard.

So what else can I do?

I also wanted to add .. her focus and areas of interests these days seems to be very much into women empowerment and those type of themes. I feel like our marriage may be a tragedy of the #metoo movement more than a pandemic divorce

There is always scope. Think back to what attracted her to you in the first place. It would not have been hugging or kissing . .


Of course not, that is stage 6, you are attempting stage 1


What we women like is to be listened to. We don't want to be judged, we don't want solutions to be offered. As we speak we are mentally walking through the problem. Give her your undivided whenever she talks, no matter what the subject. Do not yawn or interrupt.

Don't try to start a casual conversation, she will see straight through that. In any case the conversation should be a subject she brings up.


So drop it. Be alert to opportunities though. If you know she likes running, tell her you are going running. Make it a time that is likely to be good for her. If you know she likes things to be repaired, tell her you are repairing xyz. If she hovers in the background as you screw on a kitchen cupboard door, ask if it is straight. Thank her for her feedback.


My husband recently started ironing his shirts. He looks great.


Be Sherlock Holmes. By the way, keep checking her phone which you said she keeps unlocked. I'm not sure you have the whole story yet. Do not let her find out that you are doing this.


That is to wind you up, ignore it.

Are you doing fun activities with the kids? Showing them thoughtfulness? This is a need no one else can meet the way you can and will differentiate your efforts from anyone else’s.

Also you can make plans with your family and hers. This is another need no one else can fill the way you can.

Think on what you can give her that no one else can. Actions speak louder than words. Maybe there is something in the house or car that she has asked for your help with that you had ignored.

What did she 'nag' about? When a man doesn't adress his wifes complaints, it may turn into 'nagging'. What are these problems and can you fix them now?

Excellent news


How are you doing with engaging her in recreational activities? We gave given you some suggestions. Who makes dinner? What joint activities can you do with the children that she will be unable to resist because they are so attractive? You will get pushback of course because she wants to pretend she is separated.


Are you doing that? If so, you must stop right now. That is a love buster.

Of course you should continue to covertly monitor her communications but secretly. Have you put spyware onto her phone yet?


She is prodding you for a reaction. If you calmly shrugged your shoulders, you did well.


I spy a chink in her armor - good work :-)


Nice, if she is the kind of person that likes text messages, that was perfect.

Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

to answer your questions:

we are doing some kid/family activities together not as much as usually but not nothing. i installed a zipline over the weekend and four of us played on it together for a while, couple of times over the weekend. happy times, but again no real intimacy between two of us. Also, all four of us have breakfast and dinner together almost every day. she cooks for me still (family meals). on the downside ... i'm planning disney trip in july with kids only. couple days ago asked her if changed her mind and wants to come. answer was no. two little monkeys to watch @ disney is going to be a handful for me but i guess if this ends up going to divorce i best get used to it! but we both are very focused on kids so I feel like the summer will bring several opportunities for fun/recreational family time.

i have stopped accusing her of infidelity.. for several weeks now. in the text I referenced earlier I once again apologized for those accusations over the years. While I don't have spyware on her phone, the PI I had engaged last month gave me a huge data dump from her phoen and computer and there was nothing of note as I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

my parents will stay with us a few weeks in summer .., i asked wife many times if she is still ok with that idea and she was (she has good relationship with my dad and mom) but I am nervous how that will turn out. especially after her comment this weekend. on the other hand I think it can lighten things as long as no one tries to get into deep conversations on "why is she doing this". i asked my mom not to bring it up ... my dad (treats wife as his daughter they bond on many things) is a wildcard. dunno what to expect. my wife knows that divorcing me is not necessarily going to mean cutting of relationship with that side of the family. i don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing!

i know this is marathon.. our 12yr anniversary will be in late fall so until then I just plan to keep things light and not bring up any relationship talk. work on my self and my own issues, look for small wins and try not to get discouraged by pushback. and ultimately try to show that i can be fun, caring and trustworthy .... hopefully attractive again to her.

at this point I don't feel comfortable touching her. I feel like I haven't touched her in months but I am aching to do so. I just feel like I am going to put her in a bad mood if I try something like that. Any tips on how to encourage or escalate physical affection in a non-threatening way? especially when there are huge walls and just a very non-romantic vibe between us

It does seem, like you are on the right track, as she is actually spending some time with you. It is very important for you to be strategic here. Obviously, she has found the experiences of the last years bad enough to go to the trouble to seriously contemplate and seek divorce, even though you have young children. That said, it is entirely understandable, that now you have been giving and paying attention to your side of the street, your "taker" (see: basic concepts) feels that there has to be something in it for you too, especially as it seems that she may be loosening up a bit.

Because she has (or at least is trying to uphold) an image of you, where you are the villain. You are the egotistical p-g, that was rude to her when the children were little and you knew she was not going anywhere anyway because where would a 39-year-old with 2 small kids go? Let's assume this worst-case scenario is her take on this (this may or may not be true). You want to provide her with no ammunition or any resemblance of the fact that you may be thinking about your own interests, especially if these involve requiring her cooperation.

Instead you will have to be the knight in shining armour, who selflessly rescues his family from the abyss. Of course, it is only human, that you have needs as well and these have gone unmet for far too long. It will be hard, but this problem will solve itself, but it may take another few months. Until that time, you will have to take care of this need yourself wenn absolutely necessary. It is helpful to refrain from porn and other self-pleasure measures as much as possible for the following reasons:
1) When you are physically yearning for her, this heightens your energy and drive to conquer her back and will help you to find the strength in the process. Many women complain that their husbands ignore them for about 2 days after sex, or at least are not as affectionate or generally interested in them. Men rarely notice that they have changed their behaviour, but it is a biological function, so use it to your advantage.
2) If you use porn, this will create a contrast effect between actors who are ever ready and willing and into it (at least as long as the camera is on) and your wife, who is ignoring this aspect of your relationship entirely. This contrast will heighten your resentment (your taker speaking up for your interests) towards your wife and this may subconsciously hinder your efforts or change your demeanor. Secondly, your wife will seem less attractive in comparison (without lighting, flattering make-up and filters) and thirdly, almost all women don't like it, when men look at other women, or give other women too much attention. And even those who proclaim, that they don't mind, would not be sad, if their husband stated, that she was the only woman in his life worth looking at and act the part. This is big with most women. You know your wife and at best she would be irritated, should she find porn on any device. Also, if you are out and about with her, take very good care to look only at her and ignore even the most interesting passers-by. She will notice this and it will subconsciously make a MASSIVE love bank deposit, if you strictly ignore the woman with the short skirt and give full attention to your wife without even flinching.

Now, if the time comes - and it will - when she will slowly let her heart open up a bit, you have to be super strong. You will have to behave like you would on a first date with the most desirable girl of all. You will have to take it slowly and refrain - yes, I said it: REFRAIN - from any sexual interaction that she is not enthusiastic about. This means, that you will have to go to the process of holding hands, looking at sunsets and the like, stroking her hair and looking at her lovingly, before you can think of kissing her. Depending on your relationship beforehand - has she ever complained of you being overbearing? - you have to stay the gallant knight, even if everything hurts. You do it for your children and because you really can have the relationship back that was so wonderful and if you follow the rules, it will even be better.

In the articles section, there are articles about "how can a husband get the sex he wants in marriage" and about "sexual aversion". You may want to read them to see if they in any way help you in your situation.
Marriage builders is based on scientific psychological processes, that people cannot NOT react to. So keep throwing peddles in the river and eventually, you will see the heap rise above the water. One year from now, everything will have worked out.

You are the one fighting for your family here and everyone is rooting for you. Keep going strong!

P.S. Maybe she is open to work on the love busters questionnaires if you tell her, that you want to become a better person regardless if the marriage survives, but that you would appreciate her input. Please note, that it may bring up some bad memories in the process, but you can pick your time. That way, you could see what worms her the most.

I have an update, seeking help ..
we are still in house seperated. the summer was actually quite nice .. no big arguements, we had a nice "family" life although she sleeps in another room. almost no interactions that could be called a love buster. there were many days when I thougnoht I could feel/see tenderness and love in her eyes. I took my son on vacation for a week and when back she seemed even more tender for a few days mind you through all this I did not bring up us/relationship/marriage/divorce topics since way back in may/june. until a couple of days ago. i am also more convinced there is no third person/AP/guy in between this situation

so what happened? a couple of days ago I went to her bedroom late night to talk about our daughter and it escalated into a heavy/emotional/argumentative discussion about us but she reiterated that she doesn't love me anymore and that is why she doesn't want to give us a chance or work on the marriage. she said I don't want to give you any hope. I'm at a loss and feeling horrible right now. i've been doing everything right for months and her heart is as hard as a rock. she says any positive changes I have are for the next woman in my life not for her. sadly she keeps repeating the bad things I may have done and said .. 10years ago, 5 years ago, 2 years ago, 6months ago etc etc. this has been her pattern for the past two years, usually the present topic that we are arguing about is somewhat bengin and can be easily resolved but then she recalls [censored] from the past and cannot let go of the past.

whenever she rehashes the past I tell her I have apologized for my past actions (like a hundred times !), that I regret the past behavior of mine, and unfortunately I cannot change the past. I ask her for a chance to change the future but she tells me it is too late, I have hurt her too much and she no longer loves me like she did and that is why she doesn't want to work on our issues.

advice?

Fred, this has been going on like a year now and she’s still planning for divorce? Has she met an attorney yet? Why a year, are you all waiting for the holidays or something? What a stressful thing to go through. I just reread, she’s talking about dating being fine in her mind from last year.

Did you ever get spyware on her phone?
Have you read the articles Dating the One You Are Married To
Are you and your wife listening daily to the Marriage Builders Radio show?
Have you read the book Love Busters? Done the questionnaires together?
Has there been violence in your marriage? Six months is not going to be sufficient to feel safe after that for example but the Harleys have helped people in many situations.

Please Fred the tools are here to help you save your family, let’s work together. What’s your plan of action?

Why don’t you email Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the broadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.