Dear all,

I am new here, I am married to my wife close to 18 years. We have two wonderful kids, 11 and 13.
I am a researcher and my wife had to make a lot of compromises… move from one country to another… The relationship was indeed not great - seldom intimacy and conversation/affection on both sides. I substituted it with a lot of work that I now know did not fulfil me and showed increasingly demands, judgement and sometimes angry outbursts.

Past September, my wife started an affair with a male co-worker. End of the year she changed her job.
Beginning of the year, she led me know that she is not sure whether there is any love for me and she was considering a divorce.
She said she felt empowered and saw this empowerment - that I wanted for her all the time (granted not using the most ineffective means) - as liberating. We agreed to try counselling - she stopped contacting the lover - a RELATE trained marriage counsellor in the UK was approached.

I felt that the 4-5 sessions we had did not provide guidance… only vague feelings was questioned, which was very frustrating.
I understand that our relationship is very weak, but I had hoped for clear guidance. I recognised my shortcomings, tried not to pressure her…
In any case, she also never deleted the contact number to the lover. The wife’s lover is fighting for their marriage too.
As you can imagine, I have stopped all negative habits for the past 6 weeks, yet I could not show any affection/positive steps… as there is too much pain on her side.

After the finale session (the first individual one) / this Friday, my wife let me know that she does not have the energy to rebuild the marriage.

I am sad of this outcome - I did not object and said that it might be good to give her space.
She seems more relaxed now but I am afraid of a messy separation and divorce with my kids as ultimate victims.
I am now with the kids visiting relatives. In the meantime, she tries to get back to the lover.

It is a messy situation… I am not sure you can help with your advice.

Welcome to MB. I'm sorry to hear about these events in your marriage.

There are several questions that we need to ask, but I'll start with a few.

You say that "the lover" (please get rid of this term in your head. It romanticises the affair. He is the Other Man - OM) is fighting for his marriage, too. Please confirm that this mean that he is married. Does his wife know about the affair? Have you contacted her directly about the affair, to tell her what you know and find out what she knows? If so, how does she feel about her marriage now? Is she willing to rebuild her marriage? What if she knew that OM was still in contact with your wife - would she end the marriage? Do they have kids - of what ages?

How do you know your wife is trying to get back with the lover? Has she told you this, or do you have any means of monitoring her phone and online activities?

You are visiting relatives now, but do you intend for you and the kids to go back home when the visit is over? We would strongly warn you not to move out of your home.

It sounds as if you are in the UK now, but is that temporary? Is there any plan to move back to your home country? You need to prevent the situation where she moves away with the kids. If anything, you need to offer to move back home, all of you together.

I'll stop and give you a chance to respond.

You might find it reassuring to know that this is not a particularly messy situation - it seems like a very common affair pattern, where the unfaithful spouse meets someone from work. In addition, in the case of your wife, she has kids, which are a big pull back to the marriage. Your wife is involved with a married man, which will ultimately lead her nowhere, and she will grow to see that. Her married man will not leave his own kids to move in with her and her kids. Her married man got involved because your wife made it easy for him to have sex and clandestine thrills. That is nothing to throw away a marriage for, and he won't do that. You need to concentrate on busting up the affair - and you have tools to do this - and making her agree to give your marriage another try. She'll be obsessed with the affair, and depressed and miserable when it seems to be ending, so you'll have to be patient while she tries to hang on to it with every ounce of her energy. (This is if you want to rebuild; no-one would fault you for wanting to walk away, as long as you protect your kids.)

UK Relate does not tell people what to do when there is an affair. Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme tells people how to fight the affair and rebuild the marriage when it is over. You need to read the free articles about surviving an affair, on this site.

Thank you for the prompt response:

here my responses:

-> You say that "the lover" (please get rid of this term in your head. It romanticises the affair. He is the Other Man - OM) is fighting for his marriage, too. Please confirm that this mean that he is married.

Yes he is married.

-> Does his wife know about the affair?

Yes she knows of the affair and is also trying to rescue the marriage.

-> Have you contacted her directly about the affair, to tell her what you know and find out what she knows? If so, how does she feel about her marriage now? Is she willing to rebuild her marriage? What if she knew that OM was still in contact with your wife - would she end the marriage? Do they have kids - of what ages?

I have not contacted her. My wife told it to me. They have no kids - are married for 20 years... my wife said that the OM said to her that she is controlling.

-> How do you know your wife is trying to get back with the lover? Has she told you this, or do you have any means of monitoring her phone and online activities?

Once I did not object and said that it might be good to give her space, she told me that she will finally call him once visiting relatives with the kids. I can monitor her calls yet so far she has not called OM. Before leaving for the airport, I left her a romantic poem book - she liked it a lot, yet i am not sure if it is her elevated feelings to talk soon to the OM.

-> You are visiting relatives now, but do you intend for you and the kids to go back home when the visit is over? We would strongly warn you not to move out of your home.

It is a long planned visit. We will be back by mid-week. No intention to leave... i want my family in a beatiful house.

-> It sounds as if you are in the UK now, but is that temporary? Is there any plan to move back to your home country? You need to prevent the situation where she moves away with the kids. If anything, you need to offer to move back home, all of you together.

We live in London bought a newbuild 2 years ago. We plan to stay. We both like it here.

I'll stop and give you a chance to respond.

Thank you for your comments.

Here my comments:

-> Her married man will not leave his own kids to move in with her and her kids. Her married man got involved because your wife made it easy for him to have sex and clandestine thrills.

The OM has no kids. My did not show much affection to my wife and she felt it... she felt hurt and certainly looked for reassurance. She told me that they had once sex in Dec... the OM knew that she would leave for the other job... The initimate affair - first kiss - started end of September... and my wife got the other job offer around that time.

-> You need to concentrate on busting up the affair - and you have tools to do this - and making her agree to give your marriage another try.

I was good from January when she confessed to the affair. I read your books and avoid the love busting bahaviours that she also pointed out: angry outbursts, judgement and demands.
I am much more relaxed to her and also to kids. I control my work stress levels. She knows this. But she does not trust my behaviour. As I did not object for the separation, she might get angry if I aks her again for a counsel try. Not sure. Since Friday, she sleeps in the guest room. I hope the affair dies out soon, yet I am afraid that she thinks she being a strong indepenent women is incopaible with me. She lost weight and is much more attractive now. I cannot touch her. We talk though.

-> She'll be obsessed with the affair, and depressed and miserable when it seems to be ending, so you'll have to be patient while she tries to hang on to it with every ounce of her energy.

I agree with you... she never wanted to delete the number. She seemed not really committed to the sessions. I think she looked for reassurance to leave. She told me that she woudl do this independent of the OM. I am not sure.

-> UK Relate does not tell people what to do when there is an affair. Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme tells people how to fight the affair and rebuild the marriage when it is over. You need to read the free articles about surviving an affair, on this site.

I have read all the articles. I mentioned them to her... she has not read them. I ordered the books that will arrive in my absence. Is there an online councelling option following your programme?

First, I need to clarify as you seem to think that I am Dr Harley, the author of the books and free articles on this site. I am not him: I am a woman who has been through a drawn-out version of what you're going through now, and because of my experience, I know that you are being told a lot of lies. You must be much sharper than you've probably been so far if you are to survive this ordeal.

My husband's affair dragged on and on. He was able to hide it from me because his OW lived in another country and he had a job that involved travelling there. I had no clue that after I first discovered it, he didn't tell OW "sorry, my wife and I are rebuilding our marriage" as I thought he had done. (The reality is that the unfaithful spouses never do this. They do not end the affair until continuing it becomes deeply uncomfortable for them.) After my first discovery, my husband simply told OW nothing about my finding out, and back here at home, let me think the affair was over. I found out two years later that it had never ended after my first discovery. After my second discovery it continued in person for another year because of his working abroad and my finding it impossible to monitor him - 3.5 years of the physical part, in total.

During that final (3rd) year of the physical affair, I too saw a counsellor at my GP practice, and her advice was that his job was not the problem. She said that he could change jobs and simply find someone at the new job. Her advice left me stuck. I could leave and break up my children's home even though my husband was promising it was all over, or I could beg him to be truthful with me and threaten to have nervous breakdown if he wasn't being. Neither of those things is the way to end an affair, or make a decision as a betrayed spouse. I was in limbo for months after several meetings with the counsellor. Meetings with her were an expensive way of sitting and crying for an hour.

It took my stumbling across Dr Harley's work to realise that I needed my husband to leave his job if there was to be any chance of his ending his contact with OW. If my husband was the kind of unfaithful spouse that Dr Harley mostly wrote about, he had not been hell-bent on an affair. He had done something he thought had no chance of being discovered but they built up a deep, alternative life hidden from both their spouses. By the second time I found out they were addicted to each other and the affair, and were in love.

My point is that the affair got underway because the opportunity for no-strings sex presented itself, and he thought that since it was all taking place abroad, there was no chance of his being found out. There was a big gap in our marriage through which he could lead a secret second life - the gap being travelling abroad.

Dr Harley's work showed me that if he was that sort of unfaithful husband, and not the kind who seeks affairs, I needed to give him the choice of giving up his job or staying with me. Within a short time of reading Dr Harley on this site, I gave my husband an ultimatum - me or the job. He gave up the job right then and there. He was besotted with OW, was having a great time travelling abroad with her, but he wasn't prepared to give up his life with me for her. That's how most married men feel. The affair is hugely thrilling, but that doesn't mean they would choose OW over the wife. They love their wife (and kids, if any) and don't actually want to give it all up, no matter how much they have complained to OW about the marriage. Complaining about the marriage comes with the territory. You wouldn't expect them to tell their OW that their marriage is good, and they love their wife. This is likely to be true with OM in your case.

However, in my case, OW's sporadic telephone contact continued via his work for about another 5 years, and it took his retirement for her to stop being able to contact him out of my sight. She was a very obsessive woman, but we have no reason to think your wife will be like her.

I don't usually write my story here any more, but I'm telling you all this because during those years I learned a lot about married women who have affairs with married men. Using Dr Harley's advice, after a long time of being gaslighted and outright lied to, I contacted her husband and he told me a lot about his marriage, and he found out a lot more about their affair, by asking his wife. He too made her change her job as she was also travelling away from home.

I don't have any reason yet to think that your wife is like OW in my marriage, but there are a few things I am cast-iron certain about. All betrayed spouses do these things, and married women in love do them worse.

She is lying about only having had sex once.

She is lying about her last contact with him - about having phoned him to say goodbye, and sticking to that. If she knows you can monitor her calls, she probably has a secret affair phone.

She is lying about what OM's wife does and does not know. She is lying about anything she says about their marriage. If OM's wife (OMW) is so controlling, she's doing a rubbish job of it.

She is lying to your counsellor. However, as she can probably by now see that the counsellor will not tell her to end her affair, she might now be perceiving the counsellor as an ally. If she can get the counsellor to get you to see that she must follow her heart, the counselling would be worth going through. Relate counselling is absolutely useless to you now.

Now, I know your wife has already left her job, but the crucial advice Dr Harley gives is that she must actually end contact with him for good (not just tell you she has ended it - she's lying). You need to contact his wife to get her on side, you need to spy on your wife's communications so that you do not wake up in two years' time and find yourself where I was, and you need to confront OM (not necessarily in person) and tell him that if he ever speaks to your wife again, you will know, and his wife will be the first person to know after that. Contact his employer and let them know that this affair started while he was supposed to be working. HR will speak to him and he will not be pleased about that. You have to bring down holy hell on his head so that he knows that this this particular married woman - your wife - is not worth the uncomplicated sex. Let him know that it's not uncomplicated any more, and you do not appreciate his putting your children's happiness at risk.

Stand up to this man to protect your children.

There is an online counselling programme for Marriage Builders, but you don't need that now. You need to write to Dr Harley directly and he will advise you for free. He has a weekday online radio programme during which he and his wife read and answer emails. It would be great if you would agree to have your letter read out on air, because then regular listeners like me would be able to hear his advice and use it in the future. If you would agree to go on air, you would get quite a lot of airtime to ask questions and explain your worries. However, if you don't want to go on air or have it read out, he will email his response, and keep emailing with you for as long as you need. All of this is free. I'll get you the address to write to shortly.

Welcome to MB and sorry for what has brought you here.

If you want to save your marriage, please follow Dr. Harley’s plan and expose the affair.

Also, I would ask the MODS to move your thread to Survining an Affair section.

Please read Exposure 101

Also please think about emailing Dr. Harley.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the broadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will receive a call to explain the procedure.

just sent my post to the email - thank you. In the meantime, she admitted to have been in contact with the OM during the councelling... at least the first 2-3 weeks... she does not remember she tells me.
She met him yesterday. I try to figure out the OM's spouse to talk to her...

Did she volunteer the information that she met him yesterday, or did you find out by spying?

What spying techniques are you using (apart from checking her phone, which she already knows you can do)? Have you put a keylogger on her phone while you have the chance? Also, hide a voice recorder in the place she is likely to speak to him - e.g. her car.

Start by Googling the spouse's name. You will be able to narrow her down from the many people sharing her names. There is so much available information online that you can do this in minutes.

No surveillance necessary … I asked her directly as the RELATE counsellor reminded us for the next meeting this Thursday. She wanted the meeting first yet now said that she will cancel it. I asked her if she was ever committed to the session and whether she was in contact with him during this time. She said first 2-3 weeks she was in contact with him… so she lied also during counselling.

I have asked a PI to figure out the address of the OM’s wife to meet her. I need to know whether they really break up/ their marriage is over. My wife told me that his marriage will be over soon.

My family advises me to file for divorce…
I will meet my mother in law tomorrow - she was told that we do not love each other any longer and divorce is considered. I will open up to her. I have much respect for her… it will be tough.

Have you read the exposure thread?

Who all have you exposed to?

My parents, my brother&wife know, tomorrow my mother in law, her sister. Then I go back to the U.K.:
Next week the OM’s wife and his company/HR.
I think the two friends of my wife know about the affair… but I will try to talk to them too. It seems that they do not discourage her to consider separation…

I find it difficult to tell it to my kids (11/13) now … they feel that something is not right. I might do after I talk to the OM’s wife.

I think I should open up to mother in law, workplace of OM, OM‘s spouse and her friends in the U.K. on the same day next week… this way I target them all at once.

I might then open up to kids.

My wife will be out of town from Monday to Friday … she might be furious … is it a good strategy?

Should I wait until Friday if she is coming back?

Today I will talk to the mother in law and say that I will try my best to rebuild but it depends on her. If she asks more I will tell her to talk to her. She is aware of a possible separation as she heard her clean, limited version without the affair.

Yes, of course your wife will be furious. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy. That just means you've hit home.

However, you want to do all of the telling people quickly, rather than dragging it out over a long time. That way you aren't going through the same furious uproar over and over again, which distracts from the actual good that exposure can do.

Did you read the exposure thread? You should expose all at once.

Also, here to help with Exposing to Children

Update: We went to another marriage counsellor on Saturday together…this marriage counsellor was highly recommended by the divorce lawyer I contacted. We spent nearly 5 hours at the counsellors place… it rocked her a little… we had good talks, yet on Sunday she had the desire to see the OM. I was expecting for her to get clarity and did not object, yet she got nothing out of it. Apparently, she told him that we have now meaningful talks and he said that he wants to get a divorce. The OM is married for 20 years without kids… and cannot offer her the lifestyle I can provide.
The private investigator I hired to get all info of the wife of the OM will be done by this weekend. I will then strike and reveal to all plus my kids. In the meantime, my wife stays at a hotel for business until Friday - he might go and meet her. We agreed not to make any steps (affair and divorce proceedings) without contacting the marriage counsellor. The idea is that we start individual sessions. She has not called the counsellor yet which is frustrating. I want her to have individual sessions with the counsellor to ‚rattle ‘ her… she needs to wake up.

Yes, she will continue to have the desire to see the other man for quite some time, as long as he maintains a high balance in her love bank.

Which is why you need to carry through with the sudden all at once exposure process to make as much trouble in the affair as you can. Don't let yourself get dissuaded!

Are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show? You need as much education and encouragement as you can get, and the show provides both.

Dissuasion = fear. What are you fearful of exactly? The real fear is facing a Grizzly Bear that wants to eat you. This fear is an illusion that you will have to deal with uncomfortable pushback or feelings from your wife or the OM or family. Don't focus on the problem; focus on what you want and deserve. You deserve an extraordinary relationship where you feel safe and where you get your needs met. It appears to me that your wife is in the FOG and thinks that this OM and she have a real future with an Affairage. This is highly unlikely. Fear is what holds you captive. If you manage to keep it together you will be fine and if the marriage ends you will be fine.