Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3016907 03/28/23 12:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
It's been a few years since I posted. I must be the most waffling person on the planet. I continuously waiver between should I divorce? Why haven't I divorced yet? And But I love him, I don't WANT a divorce!

Details - complicated relationship from the start, 18 years ago. No cheating, no affairs, not even emotional affairs that I'm aware of. I work, he's at home, retired & disabled due to vision. DSD and DSS are now grown, DSD has a family of her own. DS is now a teenager. Both older kids are living good lives according to their own tastes and preferences.

Which leaves, why am I posting on the divorced/divorcing threads? Because I've been reading the updates since my last time on this website and have come to the conclusion that my complete withdrawal is one of the top three biggest problem in my marriage. It's true that DH still won't meet my top two needs. After this many years, and warning him that my 'well' was running dry to meet HIS needs while mine go unmet, I ran out of 'want-to'. I no longer want to try to meet his needs. Oh, he goes through seasons when his needs are unmet for long periods where he will try, but he tries by trying to fulfil HIS needs towards me. He shows me appreciation and kindness, he just can't do affection or conversation. Correction - he does conversation as long as it's about topics HE chooses and last until HE is satisfied I've heard him. I hear him on the phone with friends having relaxed, engaging conversations. I can have relaxed, engaged conversations with friends and family. We just can't have free-flowing engaging conversations together. Our conversations feel more like news bites that keep each other in the loop.

Yes, there are issues which have become deep-seated. Like a bone infection, I wonder if they can be cured at all. Even the cure is likely to be painful. And, today, I'm mostly in the place of - why bother? After 18 years, it's not going to change. Well, after 15 years. The first few were pretty good.

He still asks for things I cannot / will not give him. I explain why (he offended in a criminal way before marriage. I forgave, he promised no repeats.) We married, in part because I believed him. A few years pass and he breaks his promise. He continues to break that promise. He simply refuses to believe that I mean it when I say that is a deal breaker and he needs to stop. But, I haven't backed that up with action, like a separation, so who can blame him for not believing how serious I am. He's determined to change my mind, so he can have that offensive part back in his life.

We have had seasons of getting along quite well, fighting so bad I got a credit card so I could move out next time, fighting about me getting a credit card, withdrawal from both sides. Right now, he's trying by giving me his needs, but I'm so deep in chronic withdrawal that I see it, I appreciate the gestures, but I groan because I know he's going to ask for his needs again, when he hasn't put any of my currency in my love bank.

And, I'm back posting because I'm trying to break out of this apathy and decide the next step. I know my son sees the less-than-ideal marriage of his parents. I know he'd rather we stay together, because he knows things could be worse. But, I am reaching a stage in my life where I want more than this withdrawn existence. It sucks to only engage with my son in the house. It stinks when I was honestly telling hubby that a visit with our oldest (DSD) and her family for an afternoon was medicine for my soul. Hubby didn't want to go because he doesn't like his son-in-law. So, he misses out.

But, with him trying again, and so very dependent on me with his disability, I always feel like such a heel when I consider divorce at all. Or separation. Heck, or DSS bought a house in our neighborhood in case our DS needed a 'breather' from us, or DH and I finally did divorce. He doesn't want his dad in his home, but he will if needed. Still, I hesitate. SPIN is a good handle for me, I just keep spinning around and getting nowhere.

Any words of advice to help me kick this apathy, break through this withdrawal and decide to engage or leave?


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Welcome back. What was your previous posting name? It's hard to get a handle on this without seeing the history. Thanks.

Originally Posted by SPinSC10
It's been a few years since I posted. I must be the most waffling person on the planet. I continuously waiver between should I divorce? Why haven't I divorced yet? And But I love him, I don't WANT a divorce!

Details - complicated relationship from the start, 18 years ago. No cheating, no affairs, not even emotional affairs that I'm aware of. I work, he's at home, retired & disabled due to vision. DSD and DSS are now grown, DSD has a family of her own. DS is now a teenager. Both older kids are living good lives according to their own tastes and preferences.

Which leaves, why am I posting on the divorced/divorcing threads? Because I've been reading the updates since my last time on this website and have come to the conclusion that my complete withdrawal is one of the top three biggest problem in my marriage. It's true that DH still won't meet my top two needs. After this many years, and warning him that my 'well' was running dry to meet HIS needs while mine go unmet, I ran out of 'want-to'. I no longer want to try to meet his needs. Oh, he goes through seasons when his needs are unmet for long periods where he will try, but he tries by trying to fulfil HIS needs towards me. He shows me appreciation and kindness, he just can't do affection or conversation. Correction - he does conversation as long as it's about topics HE chooses and last until HE is satisfied I've heard him. I hear him on the phone with friends having relaxed, engaging conversations. I can have relaxed, engaged conversations with friends and family. We just can't have free-flowing engaging conversations together. Our conversations feel more like news bites that keep each other in the loop.

Yes, there are issues which have become deep-seated. Like a bone infection, I wonder if they can be cured at all. Even the cure is likely to be painful. And, today, I'm mostly in the place of - why bother? After 18 years, it's not going to change. Well, after 15 years. The first few were pretty good.

He still asks for things I cannot / will not give him. I explain why (he offended in a criminal way before marriage. I forgave, he promised no repeats.) We married, in part because I believed him. A few years pass and he breaks his promise. He continues to break that promise. He simply refuses to believe that I mean it when I say that is a deal breaker and he needs to stop. But, I haven't backed that up with action, like a separation, so who can blame him for not believing how serious I am. He's determined to change my mind, so he can have that offensive part back in his life.

We have had seasons of getting along quite well, fighting so bad I got a credit card so I could move out next time, fighting about me getting a credit card, withdrawal from both sides. Right now, he's trying by giving me his needs, but I'm so deep in chronic withdrawal that I see it, I appreciate the gestures, but I groan because I know he's going to ask for his needs again, when he hasn't put any of my currency in my love bank.

And, I'm back posting because I'm trying to break out of this apathy and decide the next step. I know my son sees the less-than-ideal marriage of his parents. I know he'd rather we stay together, because he knows things could be worse. But, I am reaching a stage in my life where I want more than this withdrawn existence. It sucks to only engage with my son in the house. It stinks when I was honestly telling hubby that a visit with our oldest (DSD) and her family for an afternoon was medicine for my soul. Hubby didn't want to go because he doesn't like his son-in-law. So, he misses out.

But, with him trying again, and so very dependent on me with his disability, I always feel like such a heel when I consider divorce at all. Or separation. Heck, or DSS bought a house in our neighborhood in case our DS needed a 'breather' from us, or DH and I finally did divorce. He doesn't want his dad in his home, but he will if needed. Still, I hesitate. SPIN is a good handle for me, I just keep spinning around and getting nowhere.

Any words of advice to help me kick this apathy, break through this withdrawal and decide to engage or leave?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Just SPinSC - I had to add the 10 when I logged back in. It's been a few years.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Can you please link us to one of your old threads?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
I can't find them myself, I looked.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
When I was on here before, hubby and I were in a bad place. We tried working the program, but hubby became frustrated at how long things were taking for me to work through withdrawal. There was a lot of drama, some I caused, some he caused. Still, there were lingering effects from some bad mistakes early in our relationship. One almost stopped it before it got started (the offense that I decided not to pursue legally, then eventually forgave him as long as no attempted repeats).

Though we didn't get through the program as we ought, we did incorporate a few of the principles. They helped, just not enough for it to be a strong marriage. I measure the health of our relationship based on both of our needs being met - that still isn't happening. For either of us. And, the level of self control we both have developed over our angry outbursts. That, at least, is much better. He still appears to be measuring the health of the relationship as reflected in our sex life. He can tell me to the hour how long we've gone. I would care about that a lot more if my needs were being met.

I try to build on the kindness he shows, the efforts he does put in. It's so hard to explain to him that I see that, respect it and appreciate it. BUT, it's still not meeting my top two needs. He doesn't feel the respect or appreciation because his EN for sex still isn't being met to his satisfaction. Round and round we go, spinning between caring, trying and withdrawal.

Right now, I'm in heavy withdrawal and his mentions about sex or being allowed to break his promise are huge love busters to me. So, I'm back. Willing to put the mirror to my face, but also willing to recognize that little will change regarding my EN being met. Ever. And, I contemplate divorce. Even though I do still love him (not in love, though). Even though the thought of it makes me feel like I'm kicking the puppy, because I DO see what he does, thinking it should be enough for me.

Hope that helps some. It's far better than it was when I was posting yeas ago. It's just still not a strong marriage. And I have to own a good part of that, due to withdrawal.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,574
Likes: 1
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,574
Likes: 1
It sounds like you’re married to him more out of feeling like you need to take care of him than anything else. But his son bought him a house, and he’s not willing to give up this deal breaker habit he has. You sound like you’d be much happier if you followed the advice in the When to Call it Quits article.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Oh, let me clear up one little detail - DSS bought the house for himself, not for his Dad. It's just surprisingly in our neighborhood.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
It's really good to get back in and read the articles, It's also been triggering to an extent. Thank you, NewEveryDay for suggesting 'When to Call It Quits'. I've re-read that first.

My first reaction to 'because you need to take care of him' comment was to be dismissive. Maybe because it was hitting home very accurately. I do get satisfaction being the family caretaker. The balance of power is skewed in our family. Our roles are largely reversed from a traditional couple. So, throughout the marriage, I've been very cautious about requesting my needs, fearing I was being too pushy and domineering. And, I've been too willing to tolerate his love busters, for peace and quiet sake. Lousy reasons to allow my marriage to deteriorate. Besides, I haven't been any angel, either. I've got a few love busters that would show up when I was feeling defensive instead of willing to hear him.

When I'm in a generous frame of mind, I have a great skill for words which I use to help encourage folks around me. I enjoy encouraging others, too! Sadly, my husband knows that I can use that same skill with words to be very unkind.

We both engage in love busters far less often than we had. Like the 'when to call it quits' article's first letter, we've held this together for 18 years so far. It's not unbelievable that another 18 years can go by before we know it. I don't hate him at all. I just don't feel compatible, either. Like our timing is so far off that one will try while the other is too far gone in withdrawal. Then, heartbroken, that one gives up. just in time for the other to emerge from withdrawal and want to give improving the marriage a real try. Rinse, repeat, mark another anniversary on the calendar. Sigh.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
Are you going to file for D or are you going to stay?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Truth, not likely to file for divorce any time soon, so will post in future in relationships instead of divorced/divorcing.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by SPinSC10
Truth, not likely to file for divorce any time soon, so will post in future in relationships instead of divorced/divorcing.
I was just asking so I knew which advice to give.

How much UA time do you get?

Have all AOs been eliminated from your marriage?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
UA time doesn't happen. We will be in the same room for up to two hours at a time, but one of us is watching TV or I'm playing on my cell phone, or he's got his headphones on while surfing the net. Attempts at conversation are usually shot down. Both of us are more capable of having real or long conversations with our friends. He was custodial dad when we met. Just before DSS graduated high school, I had DS. The kids had often been an excuse DH used for no dating. DS has become an excuse now. Even though he's a teenager, can stay in the home alone for hours, and will respect our privacy if I let him know Dad and I just need some time alone together.

AO's are so much better than they used to be, from both of us, but they're not completely eliminated.

_______________________________
My 1st M, his 2nd.
DSD & DSS were in our custody, now adults.
Teen DS at home.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
I've addressed a habit that hubby of 18 years has about being so negative. His sense of humor runs towards sarcastic and biting. He's quick with insulting one-liners. They're usually inappropriate, but sometimes funny anyway. I find myself laughing, but regretting it those times. Because, when I do laugh, he takes that as I'm ok with the inappropriate part, too. I get it, I probably would as well. BUT, I'm not. I tell him - That's wrong. Funny, but wrong. Rarely, his biting comments are so rude, I can't laugh. Then, I'm told I have no sense of humor, too thin skin, it (a very sexist comment) wasn't directed AT ME,

The thing is, there are so many insults towards pretty much anyone who isn't exactly like he is. And, it wears me down. There is almost no 'other point of view' allowed. If I try to 'defend' the target of his biting commentary, I missed the point, it was just supposed to be a joke. I've tried letting him know that I feel like it's a joke if it's once in a while, it's an outlook when it's nearly every week. And the demeaning aspects of his 'humor' towards women really grinds my gears.

So, I've tried complaining kindly that I would appreciate if he would stop 'sharing' those biting comments with me. I've tried pointing out WHY it insults me when he makes general 'women always do that' whatever he thinks of at that time. I've even got nasty back from time to time, which solved nothing and let to days of hard feelings on both sides.

I guess this would classify as a love buster for me. I can hear up to five comments in an evening. By the end of that bad of an evening, I don't even want to share a bedroom with him.

Any suggestions on how to approach this, when he sees his quick wit as one of his top five assets, but I see it as an amazing skill when not being used to insult so deeply?


Not sure of anything anymore.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
You need to eliminate AOs. Dr. Harley says you should separate until AOs completely stop. What will you do?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
Have you read How to Complain in a Marriage?
What do you think?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 63
I
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 63
Merged threads and moved to MB 101 since you state you aren’t divorcing and have chosen to work on the marriage. If you have any questions please contact the MODS.

Please keep your posts on one thread to help posters have all the information to give you the best help.


MBMod IrishGreen
MBIrishGreen@gmail.com
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Your post about complaining asks how to complain kindly, and it is indeed an important part of MB that we complain to our spouse, but do so respectfully.

However, having read what you've written recently (and I still wish you could find your old posts for more context) I don't think the problem is with your style of doing things. It's difficult to be sure, because you've written as if reader here will remember you (and I don't), but it sounds as if the fundamental problem is that your husband isn't motivated to change his behaviour in order to stop love busters. He isn't concerned enough (if at all) about whether you feel in love with him, and whether his behaviour harms your love for him. It may be that he assumes that you will never leave him, and he can carry on as he pleases.

I searched Dr Harley's private forum, where he advises people taking the online course, for his direct answers to this kind of problem. This is what I have found so far: he was responding to a poster who complained to her husband using the guidance offered by Dr Harley, but whose husband brushed off her complaints.

The answer was all about being jointly invested in the marriage. He explained that couples would listen to each other and work on making changes if they wanted their marriage to be mutually romantic and if they wanted their spouse to be happy with them. Where one spouse did not take complaints seriously, or did not act on them, they risked the end of the marriage.

Nobody can make your husband take your complaints seriously. He has to understand the need for this himself. Yes, respectful language and tone are important when complaining, but this will go nowhere if there is an unwillingness to eliminate love busters.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
When you tell your husband that something he is doing bothers you, you're telling him that he's making Love Bank withdrawals. If he wants a wife who is in love with him, he should take that feedback very seriously and stop doing whatever she is complaining about. The purpose of the POJA is to help couples avoid those Love Bank withdrawals so that they can be in love with each other.

But there are many who view it as a demand -- "If you don't stop doing this, I won't love you anymore." But it isn't a demand because the feeling of love isn't something we can turn on and off. I can't stop loving someone who keeps making massive Love Bank deposits, and and can't love someone who keeps making massive Love Bank withdrawals.

It's a statement of fact that as long as your husband keeps doing what upsets you, you won't be able to be in love with him. Looking at the situation from that perspective, I'd say that it's clearly in your husband's best interest to start...(doing the thing that the wife asked of him)

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Ok, I think I see a way forward for me and my husband. 'When to Say 'We Have a Problem' https://www.marriagebuilders.com/when-should-you-tell-your-spouse-we-have-a-problem.htm hits a couple of the nails right on the head. I also see this working with a complaint my husband offered earlier today. It's an issue that's bothered him for a while. He's been firmly planted on one solution. I've been firmly planted on another. Years ago, I had made the compromise suggestion, which was rejected. But, today, he offered it up as his own compromise suggestion. It's something I am sure we both can reach POJA on, and it will help both of us physically as well as emotionally.

I may need to post that letter to my dresser. That way, I can remember to be calm, thoughtfully state my complaint. Offer suggestions which consider his feelings as well. Allow the discussion to unfold with respect. And, if it has to be his idea to be POJA , be glad it's being considered.

I do need to work on letting go of 'right fighter' tendencies. I don't have to be 'right'. I'd much rather be loved, loving and happy. That means to me (typing it here because I reinforce well when I re-read things like this): Don't sweat WHOSE idea it is, if it's a good one, go with it. If it's one you mentioned, but hear presented as his idea - SO WHAT?!? Maybe that means it really is a good idea that can achieve POJA. You're that much closer to a solution! It's OK to surprise him by being enthusiastic now, even if you have downplayed the same idea in the past.

Marriage is a process, an action verb. Like loving. They aren't just words, they're verbs (for me to re-read in future LOL). We show them by how we live them. I'd rather put in the work and do my part to make this marriage a working existence between us.


Not sure of anything anymore.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5