DW and I often talk for a few minutes before going to sleep, even if we don't go to sleep at the same time. I usually go to bed after her. She usually is doing work right before going to bed, and I've often waited 10 to 30 minutes for her to finish up her work before we get a few minutes together - the whole time thinking it's just 'one more minute'. This night, I didn't want to sit there in bed waiting for her, so I told her I'd be in my office. I asked her to come get me when she was done so we'd have some time to talk together before she fell asleep. She did not take that well. She told me what time she'd be done, and she clearly implied that she wasn't going to come get me. She was upset, and I walked away partially confused, mostly hurt (that I apparently wasn't worth a few steps to my office), and pretty much resolved to skip the conversation and just let her go to sleep that night.

Back in my office, I was reading this message board and thinking about what just happened. I realized that she took my request as a demand, so I assume I delivered it as a demand. When I had shared my request/demand, my frustration at often waiting around for her was on my mind, and that came out in a frustrated (and possibly judging) tone of voice. I had recognized the tone of voice at the time and apologized immediately, but based on her reaction I clearly still delivered it as a selfish demand.

A little bit later, it was the time that she had said she would be finished. I went back to the bedroom. After waiting 20 minutes until she was actually done with her work, I told her that what I did was a selfish demand, and she agreed, calling it "Obnoxious!" I apologized and she said she forgave me, but that was pretty much the entire conversation. It was a pretty cold conversation.

I'm not sure what my question is, if anything. The Love Busters categories helped me to name and see what I had done. Without them, I don't think I would've gone back to apologize. I probably would've just been feeling hurt for a few days - still thinking, "She doesn't think a conversation with me is even worth a couple dozen steps out of her way."

I printed out the Love Busters questionnaire and asked her to fill it out at her leisure. I get the feeling I'm doing more of this stuff without realizing it. Comments welcome, but really this is just a way to start our thread.

Background:
I've read HNHN and Love Busters, along with most of the articles, etc. on this website. I've listened to a few programs and read some of the old threads here on the message board.
We're in our 40s, 18yrs married, 1st marriage for both, 3 kids from middle school to high school.

Her Independent Behavior or His Selfish Demand?

My wife travels occasionally for her career. Not much... for a week about once a year, and maybe for a night or two a couple other times per year. I also travel for work, but less often. Usually one night a year, but over the past 18 years there have been three or four times that it was 4-6 nights.

In light of what I've been learning here, I would like minimize days away as much as possible, especially the full week. Not because of the possibility of an affair, but just because of being apart. Is it a selfish demand to ask her to stay? Is it independent behavior for her to go? This travel is not required for work, but it can help her career. If I do not support her travel, she views it as me not supporting her career. I floated the possibility of going with her, but we agree it's not really feasible due to the distance and kids (and kids' school). The finances alone kill the idea even before the school logistics enter the picture.

How would you recommend navigating this?

We are allowed to make thoughtful requests. What, in your view, makes this seem like a selfish demand? What is the definition of a selfish demand?

But equally, since you travel alone as well, is your travel up for discussion? Is it also a problem, even though it is less than your wife's?

Same question: What is the definition of independent behaviour? Do you think it's also independent behaviour when you are the one travelling? What does she say about your travels?

Just looked up the definition: a demand is a request with a threat of punishment. (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/selfish-demands.htm) I'm not planning to punish her, but just knowing I disapprove might be considered a punishment. I might also be less pleasant to be around either before or after the trip, but not on purpose. Is it punishment if it's unintentional?


I would be fine with having my own travel up for discussion, too. On the other hand, she would also be fine with me traveling just as much as she does.


Definition from Dr. Harley:
"I define Independent Behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse." (https://www.marriagebuilders.com/independent-behavior.htm)

She is fine with me traveling. If she objected and I still took a non-required work trip, I would consider that Independent Behavior on my part. But that understanding paints me in a good light according to MB principles, and her in a not-so-good light. So I might be reading things totally according to my own bias.

For a bit more context... pre-pandemic, I used to leave for 4 nights each year to a non-work convention (essentially a solo vacation that didn't interest her). I haven't been back post-pandemic, and I do not want to. Back then, we traveled about the same amount. She didn't mind when I went, and I didn't mind her work travels. The change in status quo may also play a role in the current conflict. My current objection isn't based on any mismatch (i.e. that she now travels more than I do). Instead, it's just based on the fact that I want us to spend fewer nights apart.

We love each other, but we're not in love with each other right now (on either side), and I'd like for us to be. According to MB principles, for that to happen we need to spend a LOT more time together. I think our UA time hovers around 5-8 hours per week, but probably only half of that counts since so much of it is uncomfortable conversations (no AO) about our relationship or a recent conflict... like the one about work travel. Work travel will just make us spend less time together. She doesn't really buy into MB principles, but isn't totally closed off to them, either. She's probably reading along. She knows I started posting here.

Well hello Red Flag.

How do you know you are not in love, which one of you was the first to say those words? When a married person is in love with someone else, they tell their spouse exactly that.

Sorry to ask so bluntly, but who is your wife in love with?

This thread might belong in the "In Recovery" category. If so, admins please feel free to move it.

I had problems with lust throughout our marriage. She's known about it the whole time, but we talk about it rarely. Aside from my voluntary disclosure before marriage and another one a couple years after marriage, it's just whenever she'd ask. Usually just an update of how it was going, but a few times we talked in more detail. I'd answer honestly whatever she wanted to know, but I was secretive when she wasn't asking, and she didn't ask often. As it turns out, she was in denial about the whole issue until just a couple months ago. She stopped being in denial, let in the pain, and has gone to counseling. It's been really hard for her. I've also gone to counseling, and I've stopped acting out (7+ weeks now). Seeing its impact on her has had a big impact on me. I was also in denial about how much it hurt her.

A couple of the impacts of porn that I've seen on other couples in the forums did not come into play in our relationship, thankfully. I guess the contrast effect happens to some degree by default, but I've always found her attractive, so for me the attractive-spouse emotional need hasn't been an issue. Also, I never chose porn over her when being together was an option.

I've caused a lot of pain and resentment, and I know her recovery can't be rushed. She's pretty clearly in withdrawal, so filling her love bank is difficult. Of course the lust issues (Independent Behavior) are the biggest Love Buster. But I'm also learning more about other love busters that I've been doing without realizing it. I think I still have a long way to go there.

Our undivided-attention time, as mentioned earlier, is low. Sexual fulfillment is zero. Affection is near zero: no touching, but a decent amount of "I love you." No affection coming my way beyond that. I try to offer affection, but she understandably is often unreceptive to my attempts. It's admittedly somewhat awkward. Recreational Companionship is near zero (a dinner out about once a week, and ~45 minute walks two or three times per week, but the walks aren't really RC for me... I'm just there for the company). Intimate Conversation is the bulk our UA time, but it's often talk *about* our relationship, and while the results of the conversation can help, the talking itself doesn't necessarily count as IC since the stressfulness of it might even hurt our love banks.

I go back and forth between hopeful and hopeless. Despite all the pain and difficulty, I'm hopeful because instead of the previous decade+ of stagnation and emotional distance, the relationship is actually moving. We are sharing at a deeper level... even though right now much of that sharing is painful. And I'm hopeful because I believe MB can work and we can fall in love again.

But then sometimes I feel hopeless because many of my own emotional needs are near zero, and I'm aware that I'm not doing so great at meeting hers, either. Plus the love busting going both ways. Fortunately, most (if not all) of the love busters are unintentional. We just need to learn and work at them.

I might be too eager to start using MB in earnest and see it start working, because she feels a lot of pressure on her time and from me asking to "connect". (Possibly enough to count as an annoying love buster... not sure.) We're getting less than half the recommended undivided-attention time. Raising the undivided-attention time isn't a goal for her.

So now to your questions:
=====
Q: How do you know you are not in love, which one of you was the first to say those words?
=====
I know I'm not in love because... I'm me? Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for there. I love my wife. I'm committed to my wife. I want to be in love with my wife. I have hope that I will someday again be in love with my wife. But romantic feelings right now to the point of being in love? Nope, but I think I am closer to being there than she is. While I've had a mostly empty love bank, I imagine I sent her love bank a decent way negative. I could be wrong, though. Maybe it's the case that I just have more hope that MB will "work", as opposed to me being closer to the "in love" threshold than she is.

Neither one of us said those words to each other so bluntly. I said the words to her about our relationship (both of us), recognizing where I am and recognizing that she's even further away than I am. She didn't disagree.

=====
Q: Sorry to ask so bluntly, but who is your wife in love with?
=====
She's in love with Jesus. :-)

What do I do now besides wait and, of course, not go back to lust habits? I want to provide her "just compensation", but since she's in withdrawal and not really wanting me to fulfill her emotional needs, I'm not sure how to do that. Extraordinary protections are in place, and I meet what emotional needs I can, but it's limited.

Neither of us have any intention of leaving the marriage.

What can you do to increase your UA time? Dr. Harley says we should get 15 hours a week to maintain a romantic marriage and 20+ to recover.

Can you both find non traveling jobs?

Have you stopped all porn?

Why is there no SF at all?

Also, read The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Thanks so much for your response.

That's my main question here. Increasing UA time is not a goal for her, and my requests for more time may be getting to the point of nagging/annoying habit.

Work travel is beneficial but not mandatory for both of us. Conferences, training, etc.

Yes.

She is in a lot of emotional pain still and isn't ready for that. We aren't even touching right now.

Thanks for the link to the article. I've read just about every article on this site (including that one), but there's always a chance I've missed one, so feel free to post others that would be relevant.

Do you know her top 3 emotional needs?

Have you stopped all Love Busters? If you have, for how long?

So if you set up a some time for UA time, she wouldn’t want to go?

Not really. She did the emotional needs survey, but she marked 7 of them with the highest rating. On the ranking page, Honesty + Openness was #1 with five others tied for second. Of the "intimate emotional needs", only IC was among those tied for second. She said that the survey could be very different 6 months from now, because right now everything is so colored by the porn "disclosure". That may be the reason for HO being #1. (Disclosure isn't really the right word, but I'm not sure what else to call it. It wasn't new information - she's just really reckoning with it for the first time.)


Almost certainly not. I am trying, but the very first post in this thread is an example of a love buster that I didn't realize until after the fact. There are probably plenty of others. I asked her to fill out the Love Busters survey, but she hasn't yet. When asking her, I did make sure to do that as a thoughtful-request and not a selfish-demand.

There are no AOs. My biggest independent behavior has stopped, and I don't think there are any others. No dishonesty, unless there are "lies of omission" where I'm omitting something because I don't know she wants to know. I'm not hiding anything.

The other 3 love busters are where I probably have problems. I need to make sure I phrase things as Thoughtful Requests and not Selfish Demands. Other than the failure mentioned in the first post, I'm not aware of others, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are. I probably have some Disrespectful Judgements in our conversations, but I'm trying to be conscious of not doing that. Annoying Habits... there might be a lot in that category, but I don't know about them yet.


We do go for walks a few times per week and go out to dinner sometimes. She doesn't want to go out more often than we do. We did fill out the Recreational Enjoyment questionnaire, but then when we read through the things where we matched up, she said she wasn't looking for a new hobby right now. That really just left the things we do together already anyway: dining out, church, Bible study, TV. And while those last 3 might count as recreational-companionship time, they don't really count as undivided-attention time.

We did the recreational-enjoyment questionnaire, but I haven't made a concrete "date" to offer her that incorporates one of those items. Maybe she'd be more interested if it were a concrete offer. I'll give it a try. (Oh - we are going to a concert together next month, and I'm glad about that. That was one of the things that came up on the questionnaire, but it isn't something we'd do weekly or even monthly, so it isn't going to help us get to 15 hrs/week.)

If I understand you correctly she is very hurt about the porn disclosure? She is going to need some time to trust that you have stopped watching it.

What have you done to prove to her that you aren’t doing it anymore? What EPs have you put in place?

Yes, that's correct.


Pretty much every day I let her know that I'm still not looking at anything. I haven't ever directly lied to her about it, so she doesn't doubt that I've stopped. (Secrecy and lies of omission, but I've always answered what she's asked.) I do think that she doesn't yet trust that I'll stay with it.


Filters on all the devices I use. Not watching TV alone unless it's a pre-selected show. Seeing a therapist about the issue. Two weekly men's meetings (one Bible study, one specifically about this issue). Both groups providing accountability. I've asked her what else I can do to reassure her, but she isn't even asking for as much as I've done and has no other suggestions/requests. She did ask that I see the therapist. That was one major request she had. She said it's kind of a burden to her to "watch" me. Not those exact words, but that was the gist.

Have you read through Dr. Harley on the Scourge of Pornography ?

How long have you stopped all the porn and put the precautions in place?

It's been 8 weeks.

I did read that article. Thanks for posting it.

Ok, so not a long time.

Have you read HOW ONE SPOUSE CAN LEAD THE OTHER BACK TO INTIMACY?

What can you do to figure out her top ENs?

If I had read it I forgot about it. Thanks.


Hard to say. Just trying to pay attention as much as possible at this point.

Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley for advice?