In the past couple of months, my H has 1) threatened to not contribute to our daughter's college education if I don't sign a financial settlement by the end of the year 2) refused to take a few hours off to take care of the little kids so they wouldn't have to ride 8 hours in the car 3) on another occasion told me that it was not his responsibility to take care of the kids, even though it was so I could go take the mandatory parenting course which he wants me to take 4) is willing to go through the expense, time off from work, and effort to take me court rather than pay fifty bucks for the course and take care of the kids for two evenings, and 5) refused to see the kids more than one hour, one evening during the week even though they have asked him repeatedly to see them more often and 6) mostly ignores them on the two weekends a month he takes them to the OW's house. Apparently he has decided that since he does not have physical custody of the kids, he no longer has any responsibility toward them whatsoever, except during his visitation periods, and then he mostly delegates their care to the OW. He no longer cares at all about what they want. He has always shown love primarily through "acts of service" - he has always been happy to take the kids where they want to go, to go out of his way to do things for them, to take time off from work to chaperone their school field trips, to go to their conferences etc, and now that has completely stopped. Periodically he emails me what feel like "performance evaluations" when he feels like either they or I are not performing up to snuff. <P>Is it really beneficial to them for me to keep pretending he loves them? Are they not going to realize at some point that he doesn't, and then they won't trust me, either?

Nellie, Having been in a simular position at one time in my life I can tell you that the worst thing you can do is make excuses for him. He needs to face and deal with the children on his own and if you say anything one way or the other (for or against him) they will look at you as if you are the cause. If he wants to see his children enough he would make that effort, and they will eventually realize that on their own that you have nothing to do with their fathers actions. The worst thing you can do is to try and protect his image because it will come back to haunt you, and don't make excuses for him because they will believe you support him in his not seeing them.<BR>I don't know if it helps but I will tell you something that helps me. The only person's behaviour that I can control is my own, there is nothing I can do about someone elses behaviour other than deal with it. And I have to be truthful to myself and not try to control others around me in regards to our children, that they will recognize that I am doing the best I can for them when I put forth the effort to do for them and not the effort to complain about their fathers behaviour, since I can't control that. Make sure they understand that you are not responsible for his behaviour! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

I agree completely with what chick's says. This is how I've tried to do it with my children. Some days, it is literally heart breaking.<P>My son said something to me earlier this week that reduced me to tears. He said that "dad has alot of things to worry about so he doesn't have time to think about coming back.". So, my seven year old extremely bright boy is making excuses for his father. He is already concluding that these other worries are correctly more important than our family. Are these the lessons we want our children to learn?<P>We're the only parents in our families, so we carry the ball. My husband never talks to our son about the situation. I do. And I stress the values part constantly. I differentiate by saying "good people sometimes do bad things" and "daddy loves you very much", but I don't leave him with the impression that what his father is doing is right or even tolerable. I feel compelled to walk this line, even if it subjects me to some personal risks.

My ex-H sees the kids every other weekend. He does not pay a lot of attention to them and NEVER tries to discuss the situation with them. He doesn't talk about anything personal at all. How can he have a close relationship with them based on that?

Nellie<P>Obviously you believe your H doesn't love your children. I suspect you're right, particularly with the way he is acting.<P>I would stop defending him and as others have said don't pass on your own feelings. Tell them you don't know because you don't. It is up to him to convince his kids he loves them. They will make up their own mind regardless of what you say, and some of them may have decided already. Just make sure they know you love them.

Nellie:<P>Another point of view from an ex H who's been there. <P>Sometimes it is the ex W that the father doesn't want to deal with. She stands between him and the kids. Also too many nice Ex W tell the kids that "Daddy is a good man who did a bad thing". But did Mommy tell the kids about what she did or didn't do? I doubt it. <P>I had joint custody and "unlimited" and "unrestricted" visitation rights. I took full advantage of them. even to the point of babysitting the kids while Mommy went out on dates. I always tried to tell the kids that the problems where between Mommy and me and had nothing to do with them. I talked about personal things that affected the kids but NEVER talked about personal things about their Mommy. However, Mommy took advantage of the greater amount of time she had with the kids to ensure that they got to know their father's "other" side. However, she failed to mention her deeds (I'm the one who filed for divorce and I won that custody ruling). I would never burden the kids with telling them what I "really" thought about their mommy. <P>After a while it became difficult to continue the visits while Mommy made it a living hell just to be there or when I picked them up or dropped them off.<P>After several years, I got transferred overseas and didn't see the kids for a while. Each time I asked for the kids to come and stay with me or at least visit, it was one excuse after another simply so she wouldn't lose the child support.<P>Please do what you were telling Lucks to do in another thread. Check out the "other" side of the story. Or at least tell us what you think your H's side is.<P>One question: I haven't been following too closely but I'm not understanding the part about a "mandatory" parenting class for you. After 19 years and six kids, why now?<P>PW<p>[This message has been edited by Patiently Waiting (edited November 13, 1999).]

PW,<BR>In our state, if a couple has children, before either one of them can even ask for a hearing, they both have to attend a class on the effects of divorce on children. The course was developed apparently in response to no-fault divorce and the subsequent rise in speedy, not-well-thought-out divorces.<P>I can't really tell you what H's side of the story is. I wish he would tell me, or them. He has told the kids that he " just can't" see them anymore than he already is, which he has cut back more and more on as time goes on. He agreed that he needed to tell them when he was cutting back on visitation, but he never has - he handles it by saying, for example,instead of his usual "I'll see you on Thursday", he says, "I'll see you next Tuesday", and not until the children specifically ask will he tell them that he is only going to be coming once a week from now on, or whatever. Shortly before he started taking them to the OW's for every other weekend, he told our son I wouldn't let him take them overnight - actually, the therapist had told him, when HE asked for her opinion, that it was way too soon. His explanation for why he wants a divorce to the kids is that he made a mistake marrying me and doesn't like me anymore. He has told them that we just don't get along - unfortunately, he is the only one in the family that thought we weren't getting along - the kids have said that it always seemed like we loved each other, and I thought so too. He even told me after he left that I had always acted like I loved him. I can't tell the kids what I did or didn't do, because I have no idea. During our entire marriage, he never mentioned that there were any major problems - in the weeks after he left he came up with various complaints, most of which he had never mentioned during our marriage. He told our oldest daughter that he found the OW through a personal ad, that he was "looking for someone to talk to", and that it wasn't the first ad he had placed - neither one of us can figure out why he would confess that second part, which certainly did nothing to improve his standing in her eyes.<P>I certainly do not make it difficult for him to be here, unless it is by the fact that my very existence makes him feel guilty. I have never been anything other than cordial to him. I strongly suspect that the OW doesn't want him spending any time here.<P>awoken,<BR>He used to love the children. He claims to love the children. Our 17 year old said once that he probably even thinks he loves the children, but he doesn't know how to love.<P>already divorced,<BR>Your H's behavior sounds so much like my H's - even the rush to get the divorce (although it takes longer in this state unless both parties are willing to swear before a judge that there is no hope of reconciliation). I suspect it is all about guilt. <P>Distressed,<BR>Your son's comment was so sad. My son says his father has lost his mind - my oldest daughter' say that I'm making excuses for him, that he is a jerk, once a cheater always a cheater, and that he must have always been this way but was just hiding it. <P>chick's,<BR>The night he called to say he wasn't coming home, he told me never to tell the kids he doesn't love them - but he sure doesn't act like he does. Even if someone had told me he would leave, it never in a million years would have occurred to me that he wouldn't want to see a lot of his children, and he did, for the first six weeks, until he filed for divorce. His behavior changed almost immediately after that - at the time he was visiting them here, and I would usually come home to find him reading someone a story, or one or more of them would be sitting on his lap. Immediately after he filed, that completely stopped - I'd come home to find him sitting in front of the computer. It is like he decided that if he was going to get a divorce, it was dangerous to feel too close to them. <BR>

Nellie1,<BR> Our stories sound almost identical. My H never gave me a clue that he was unhappy. He told my children that we argued all the time and my 7 year old actually said "Daddy, thats not true". He told me everyday how much he loved me, and was always telling me I was a good wife. He has also told me more than once that he wouldn't make it a week without me and the kids. As soon as I found out about the OW, he started pointing all the blame at me. His story was so different from reality that I asked him if we were talking about the same marriage. He has also said he doesn't love me anymore, he wishes he had never married me, and he doesn't care what happens to me. He said he loved me at Christmas but by April he didn't. He started seeing the OW in Feb. He stills says she has nothing to do with it and they are just friends. She has a 7 yr. old son, he spends more time with him than with his own. He has never admitted to the kids that he is involved with her, they haven't even met her.<BR>I'm really dreading that.