Well, it's time for another of my streams of consciousness. W still intends to move out and I am still in the process of deciding whether or not I can continue to be married to her if that happens. She is going to call the real estate agent who helped us buy this house to get a recommendation for an appraiser. <P>I'm still in a quandry as to what I want to do. She told me that whether or not she moved out, she wouldn't necessarily consider us to be "over". The intent to move is based on her inability to deal with the negative emotions and anger that each of us has had trying to sort all of this out. The good times, where we are sweet and loving to each other outnumber the bad times 20 to 1, but this doesn't make any difference to her.<P>Thru the summer and once this fall since I moved back, W indicated that OM was "on-hold" awaiting a decision from her. For me this is a <B>major</B> factor in how I will deal with her moving out. I asked her today if either she or OM still considered him "on-hold". Well, she said no, but she seemed a little "funny" in that answer. She kinda acts as if we had never discussed that issue before and how would I know that he was ever in that state if we hadn't talked about it. I do know that she has told others that he was waiting on her to make up her mind and she wasn't discouraging him in that, but we did indeed talk about it on more than one occasion.<P>I don't feel that I want to stop or delay the divorce when she moves if OM is "on-hold". She is still being quite reticent about discussing OM to the point of appearing to be secretive. She has called him at least twice since I moved back, trying to hide the fact by dialing invalid or inappropriate numbers after she finishes the call to him to throw me off if I hit "redial". She continues to do this even though I have gone overboard to assure her that it's OK with me if she calls him to just talk as friends. I'm not going to put myself in the position of being hurt again if I can help it. I know she loves me a great deal, but I don't feel comfortable that the honesty level is sufficient for me to go along with the move out.<P>She wanted to know why I wanted to know this information about OM and I just told her it was important to me for my decision-making process. I was then asked what decisions this would pertain to and I brushed her off saying we could talk about it later. She should be quite aware of the issue as we talked last Sunday about the move and I told her that my feelings then were that if she moved out, the marriage was over for me. I'm still evaluating that possibility(in other words, waffling).<P>Anyway, sorry that some of you folks end up reading this stuff. It makes me feel a little better just to write it down and help organize my mind. And, also, I never know when Sheba, new beginning or someone else will see places where I'm being stupid and beat me about the head and shoulders with a large salmon. I do love this place.

Heartpain - I'll leave the "salmon slapping" to those other guys - much better at it than I am!!!! (no offense you guys!)<P>You know the drill. If there's contact, she will not be working on your marriage. After all, we're not talking about forced contact here. <P>We're allowed to waffle, too, you know? I've become quite good at it lately. I wish I had some good advice for you. Don't be hasty in making any decisions. But I don't think you usually are. <P>Anyway, just wanted you to know I was listening - and I'm sorry. I know how disappointed you must be. <P>Lori

Lori -- Actually, she <B>has</B> been working on the marriage some. It's just that everytime there's a down side, she declares that she can't take it anymore. I'm sure she's moving out, but she has gone from being sure about the divorce(wanting it) to starting to think about putting it on hold. She did tell me that she discussed that possibility with her attorney.<P>On my part, I am getting to the point where I can't take the little surrenders of hers anymore. Our joint counselor(who happens to be W's personal one) chided me one time that it would get worse before better and I told her to address that comment to W, which she never did. Sheba did have some good reasons why that was, but it's still frustrating to me.<P>On the contact issue, that won't change in any way so I have to accept some.<P>Thanks for listening and the pep talk. Yes, we are allowed to waffle. W's been doing it since April, but likes to criticize me if I do it at all. I'm learning to take it in stride(even if it doesn't look that way now).<BR>

Hi Heartpain -<P>Gee, I thought that the only time I ever dealt with salmon was when I used to go to Palaski, NY fishing with my H!! LOL!<BR>I miss that ...... boy, we caught some whoppers there!!!! Oh Well....<P>Anyway, on to you.......<P>I think you just have to search your heart. She is back and forth with OM whether you are home or not, then whether she moves out or not....basically, this "thing" with them is going to run it's course.<P>You can't control it, by trying to get her to promise this or that...part of all this is the addiction/confusion, she does not see or feel clearly about the marriage and you. Selfishness and lies will wreak havoc on you if you don't gain the perspective that it is part of infidelity.<P>If you take each incident as a personal blow to you....then you don't have that perspective - this is not about you!!! It's her being in her confused "what if" phase.....she will play things out till she sees an answer...<P>We as the betrayed usually don't get the separation....she is not doing this TO YOU - she is doing this FOR HERSELF!!<P>The only part we play is what we did/didn't do within the marriage before the affair....therefore that is the only part we can make a difference with. <P>She knows that you don't want her with another guy.....that's not the point that you need to keep trying to get through to her. You have to try to show her that YOUR MARRIAGE can/will be better and something she can be happy in!!! <P>Like I said before, you have to search your heart for just how much you love her and want your marriage.....how much can you handle? How much is it worth to you? Is it for better or worse? <P>Noone can answer those questions but you. Don't threaten divorce though, that's not a good way to help your wife or yourself...that's just putting an axe over your heads!!!<P>If you find that you can't Plan A, then go to Plan B........but for God sakes, don't get a divorce if YOU don't want one!!!!<P>People go through rough times - they also make bad choices along the way...<BR>Sometimes they have to learn lessons. Who knows why this has to happen, but for some reason it is!!<P>Of course, you are not comfortable with the honesty level....shoot, I'm not comfortable with ANYTHING about it!!!!<BR>I look at it as this is something that my H dealt for himself and I got dragged along to hell with him....<P>Difference is - I KNOW that despite all the pain, anguish, disrespect, devastation, etc....I WILL get out of this hell someday. But will HE?<P>I have remained steadfast with my love and belief in the marriage. I have - for the most part - not reacted to his actions. In other words, I have not allowed myself to beat down my own selfworth by thinking that he is doing this to me....he's doing this to himself!!! I have no need to feel used or "doormattish" because I am still the person I was throughout the marriage - I didn't change - HE DID!!! What he thinks of me changes with any given moment and thought!!! When he feels guilt or has a flash of reality...he sees me for who I am.....I will not give him ANY justifications for blaming me for his choices.....<P>Yeah, I'm rambling at you, sorry!!! Just want you to understand that this is our spouses choices and NOT something that we have to feel reactionary to because of ego..... IF you love her, do what you can to wait it out and do what you can to show her hope with you and the marriage. <P>It all stinks!! But it is fact, that we have to do some work here because we are not "addicted" to anything other than our marriages....our minds are not cluttered with something or someone else and we have the "saner" view!!!<P>I don't know if this classifies as "salmoning" you.....does it? LOL!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba <P> <BR>

Hey! I like salmon, and although it would tenderize to slap you about the head and shoulders, I would not do it... no, I prefer a wet noodle, possibly a pop tart fruit filling squeezing upon the nose!!!!<P>Big time ookie about her still even considering the OM. That's gotta be so hard on you, and frankly, on her too. I know that place, and it hurts.<P>You are doing all the right things. I think that now it's just a matter of a waiting game. I am so sorry you're having to live through this. It seems like the ones on this board are always saying they wish their spouse was like the one who doesn't come here... Zip said to me, I wish my W would try as hard as you do... I'm saying to you, I wish my H would try as hard as you do... geez...<P>You're a good guy... so now put your nose right up to the screen for a good fruit filling lashing!!!!!! Blueberry, I think!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sheba & Sheryl -- I know you guys are right. It <B>is</B> a waiting game, but sometimes I think I'm too old to do a lot of waiting. All this stuff makes me feel even older, but doesn't it do it to us all. The "salmoning" comment was actually inspired by a Monty Python sketch -- "The Fish-slapping Dance"...if you don't already know, I don't think I'll go there....<P>Sheba -- No, that didn't qualify as "salmoning". I was thinking of the last long reply you gave me. A real woodshedder it was and I deserved it.<P>What did you mean by "personal blow". I guess I do feel that way except I see it more as a blow to the marriage, but I know W isn't doing it to me, personally. She really is a nice person at heart. It's just the way she thinks now and the decisions she's trying to make for herself.<P>I'm not really threatening divorce. She knows I didn't want this and only filed as a measure of last resort for my sanity. The divorce was filed and she wants it to keep trucking along. <P>No, you are not rambling. If you look that word up in the dictionary you will see a picture of me there as an example of a rambler.<P>I have searched my heart and I realize that I love her much more than I want the marriage. I want her to be happy no matter which path she needs to take. But I do know that if she searches <B>her</B> heart she will find that she can be happy with me.<P>I wonder sometimes if it is detrimental to be addicted to our marriages. Does this keep us from making the right choices in life? Do we end up wanting our marriages to work out at the eventual expense of ourselves? Man, this is too deep for a Sunday....<P>Sheryl -- I know it's all hard on her and I do feel sympathetic. It's just that she is responsible for where we are now and I don't want her to feel any pain, but it would probably do her some good. We don't really learn anything unless we get a cookie(or poptart) for right and our knuckles rapped for wrong.<P>Blueberry!!!! Bring it on, it's my <B>favorite</B> fruit. I remember when I lived in SW Michigan going to the u-pick places and picking blueberries in a 70 acre field. It was like heaven.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder sometimes if it is detrimental to be addicted to our marriages. Does this keep us from making the right choices in life? Do we end up wanting our marriages to work out at the eventual expense of ourselves? Man, this is too deep for a Sunday....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, this is not too deep and is a <B>very</B> good question. You know what? I don't know, and frankly, right at this very moment, I think the answer is this:<P>Yes, it is at the expense of ourselves and can be very detremental to our health, psyche and life in general. Wish it 'twernt so... <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi Heartpain (and you, too NB!!)<P>See this is where I think I am a little off (my head!!).....<P>I don't understand what is meant by separating marriage and me....<P>When I got married - I chose to become "one" with my H. Well, I did that!!<BR>Nothing that has happened since including all that my husband has done and is still doing has changed that within ME.......<P>He broke away and when he divorces me I will then be one with myself legally, physically and in day to day life.<P>But I often wonder how my heart and spiritual side will respond....Right now I am still One with my H....probably always will be in some respect.<P>NONE of this has changed my thinking at all....it is who I am!!<P>I never at any time thought that I would not want or have my H in my life...NEVER. It is just something that never entered my head......I've always looked at it as something to be worked through, learned from and growth to be gained. <P>H, on the other hand - has no capability and/or desire to face anything difficult and has chosen an easy way out..with the help of OW and "friends" and is happily (or not) playing in his new little world. So who is really separating marriage from themselves? <P>I am not addicted to the marriage...it's what I created and am half of - it's part of who I am now. I guess I just don't understand what you mean....<P>Yes, I want H to be happy....but I think that being a liar, cheat, and running from the hard stuff is not going to be a road to happiness for him..or anyone!! I don't want a divorce and that is why I never took that route in the almost 3yrs. that he has been doing this.....<P>He had to be pushed into it by one of the OW's and that is very sad to me. He will not be happy with this person or anyone else if he doesn't deal with problems when they come up in his life.<P>I stayed true to my feelings and who I am and what I believe. My love did not "go away" because of his behavior.. ..sometimes I wish it did!!! <P>So, when you and others talk about getting a divorce to save your sanity or to get on with your lives or whatever..I don't quite see the rush in it. What would you be doing different if you choose not to wait and see where this marriage goes? Is it the need to date or something? Do you think that leaving your spouse so permanently when you know that there is so much confusion going on is really getting on with your life? Or is it just a big an abandonment as you have felt? Or is it an escape from your own pain? <P>Please explain it to me if you can...I really am beginning to think that there is something wrong with me!!! How can you end your life with your spouse if you really don't want to? If they really want that - wouldn't you let that be their doing then?<P>Thanks and HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sheba -- I can't speak for others, but I will try to explain where I'm coming from. You spoke of becoming "one" with H. I became "one" with W. The way I was raised instilled certain moral and ethical values in my just like everyone else. And just like everyone else these are in their own way unique to me.<P>It is ingrained in me that when two people are married they cannot be one without physical, emotional and mental fidelity. For me, if any of those is missing, the "oneness" is broken and cannot be rebuilt until the missing element is restored. My marriage is also part of what I am now. Unfortunately, without a return of all three fidelities, there is no "oneness", which is essential to me to stay married.<P>If it appears that the trinity will not be restored, then it's just a matter of how long to wait. This is the most individual decision any of us have to grapple with. I have a life to get on with. I would like nothing more than to continue life with my W, but all three fidelities have not returned, and won't if she moves out.<P>Background on this is that at one point, after we had been separated about three months, she told me that she was starting to feel like she really didn't want to be married. This really fits in to the Pittman book in that it describes people who want separation as not wanting to be married, but using the paper marriage as a deterrant against future couplings.<P>I love my wife, but I am not going to live my life this way. A miracle may happen and we put things back together. However, I won't spend my life waiting for the improbable. I'm too old for this **** and it doesn't do either one of us any good.<P>Life gives us consequences for our actions. If W knows I will wait until hell freezes over for her, then she has no consequences to face by moving out.<P>Anyway, I want to think about this some more before continuing. As soon as I get a chance, I'm going to respond to your post of today..you did fine.