Someone has just thrown me the biggest doozy, I don't know what the hell to think<P>Jo

Bonnet,<P>You are doing great for the circumstances that you are in. YOU are doing what YOU have to do.<P>If it's any consilation, I just got off the phone with my Mom. She knows what's going on between me and Val, the affair, the separation, the divorce proceedings starting.<P>She says "If Val would want to come back, you wouldn't take her back, would you? How could you ever believe or trust her again?" Yes I know it would be difficult to regain trust. I told her we will see what happens. With total disgust in her voice "Oh Tim!".<P>No one here or on earth knows how you feel. Anyone can give you an opinion on what you should do. I say opinions are like @$$holes, everyone's got one.<P>It's just someone elses take looking into the fishbowl of your life and marriage.<P>Even though I'm in Plan B and divorce mode, I will not give up on this marriage until I am dead for two years.<P>Hang in there. WER'E all pulling for ya!<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

Jo,<P>Relax. I think Consider This is a marriage counseler but uncertain of that. I have some thoughts that counter the negativity of their post but right now want you to know I see your pain and will post as soon as I get those thoughts typed. Also said a little prayer for you that God will hold you in his hands and comfort you.<P>Melissa<P>

bonnet,<P>i agree w/ the others here. you are doing what you need to do to take care of yourself.<P>i am in the same boat as medic. plan b and on the divorce train.<P>i pray every night that my marriage will be saved. every night.<P>the odds may not be in my favor, but i have God on my side. so do you. God MAKES miracle. remember that.<P>don't put to much emphazise on what one person has to say.<P>you are among friends here. we will help see you through this.<P>God bless,<P>Cheryl

Jo, Honey, Calm down. Now Breathe. Do it again. Breathe. Deeply. OK. One more time.<P>Now, first lesson for MB members. No matter who we are, no matter why we're here, we tell the truth. We post our feelings, our beliefs, even those who don't necessarily go along with the mainstream here.<P>So much of what you will read here is useful. Even in the posts that upset us sometimes. But, it is, as Medic said, an opinion. So we take those that give us comfort, consider those that cause us to cringe and learn what we can from all. But, in the end, we follow our hearts, our instincts, our beliefs and values. <P>This whole experience is a learning one for all of us. And the varied opinion of all who post here help us to learn. Take what you can learn, discard the rest. Your heart will tell you what's best for you. Trust it.<P>Now, take another deep breath. Look into yourself for the answers. They're there. I promise. Don't let anyone, not me, not anyone change your mind when you listen to your heart. BREATH.<P>((((((((((((Jo)))))))))))))<P>Lori

Bonnet:<P>I read it and disagree whole-heartedly with it. Wrote a nice long response, but I lost it. Suffice it to say, that I'd prefer not to write it again, but I think it's totally unhelpful and ridiculous.<P>I think as long as you (or anyone) thinks your marriage is salvagable, you ought to try. It's too easy to quit when the going gets rough. Don't let the supposed "expertise" of a nameless person keep you from trying to rebuild your marriage.<P>I have a feeling that Consider This is either a student of psychology or therapy, or an amateur therapist. No professional with an ounce of ethics would get on a forum uninvited and start dispensing unsolicited marital advice. A real professional would look for a medium in which to promote his or her name/expertise. I wouldn't put much stock in Consider This's words, at least until I knew who he/she was and what credentials he/she had (and how reliable his/her statistics are).<P>Keep trying to save that marriage. It CAN work.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited November 14, 1999).]

Thanks heaps guys - I still haven't stopped crying but I do feel better.<BR>Medic, you crack me up. Bad choice of words there, but I love your sense of humuor. Thanks.<BR>Lostva - thank you thank you thank you.<BR>Callie - you're wonderful. I'll be in touch.<BR>To everyone else, I didn't print your responses so i can't remember who said what.<BR>I'm going to get some of my own therapy now - I'm going shopping. At least in public I won't be crying uncontrollably. I'll think of you all and I'm sending us all love hugs and kisses (is xxx allowed ??)<P>Talk soon, I have to get out<P>Jo

Bonnet<BR>There are some very strong, wise people at this forum. They have walked in shoes very similar to ours. No two situations are the same and a lot of mumbo jumbo from one person is not gospel.<BR>Relax. You are doing great. There is plenty of hope even on the darkest day as long as you're still breathing. <BR>I am very sorry that this person decided to pick your thread to spread their theory. don't take it too personally.<BR>One day at a time and remember all the FRIENDS you have made here care very much.

<BR>Dear Jo<P>I don't know how spacing will go as I wrote this in WordPerfect and then posted.<P> By the way, in response to original post, you might keep a diary of what goes on with the children but I don't think you should keep him posted if you go to Plan B. The purpose of Plan B seems to be to QUIT filling any of his emotional needs so that he can see that OW cannot. Also, he will see what he is giving up. Also, are you sure is time for Plan B. Plan A is to leave spouse with idea that there is hope for you to make it and that you can meet his needs. I don't know your whole situation or time frame you've been in this. I too am torn with where I am in plan situations and from the posts that seems to be a common dilemma. I skipped from total anger into asking for a separation and wish I had waited until I wasn't acting on emotions. I speak from ignorance, it may well be time for Plan B for you. <P>This is Consider This's post with my comments notes with an asterisk.<P> I have been reading at this sight for business-related reasons for<BR> the past few weeks. I have seen hundreds of couples in such<BR> situations as yours. What I think is important for people here who<BR> are stuck in a cycle of hope/despair, is to acquire the knowledge<BR> that these are the natural occurances in any separation and<BR> pending divorce, not just in cases of infidelity. The focus here is<BR> too often on the other person's involvement in the situation, and<BR> less on the facts about the stages of the separation process<BR> itself.<P> * Not exactly. I assume that most of us have read about Plan A & B on web site if not in Harley's Surviving An Affair. The purpose of the plans and separation are to recover the marriage or at least to have done all we could to salvage it. Harley set our clear reasons for this in the book. Also, he thought that our love banks would be drained at end if the marriage was not saved and would make it easier for us to accept and go on. *<P> CT again: It is important to understand that a partner moving out is<BR> only the first step of the death of a relationship and the birth into<BR> a new life.<P> * Consider this seems to think that separation inevitably leads to divorce. It could be the first step of reworking the marriage into something better. From Harley and another book, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy, by Frank Pittman and many other sources of information I know that many separations end with the marriage being resumed. * <P> CT again: Unless both people want out of the relationship, and<BR> often even then, you will see these periods of doubt and renewed<BR> declarations of love and then eventually, a return to the orignial<BR> position of the necessity of leave-taking.<P> *Harley too says that the original problems need to be addressed or the marriage is vulnerable to affairs again. Where CT seems off base is that he sees the leave taking as a necessity. The Pittman book over and over refers to unnecessary divorces and accidental ones when there was a workable marriage or a chance to have a much fuller marriage brought on by resolving the crisis of the affair. Pittman pointed out that most initial affairs are accidental, from his statistics from his marriage therapy practice. There are numerous ways a spouse can get into a affair, even some people who were happily married. The betrayers' responses to these varied. Some felt extreme guilt and remorse and vowed to never do it again.. Best response, especially if they were honest with partner, but not the situation for most of us on site. Others had to rationalize what was up. Some decided that if they were in an affair then something was wrong with marriage or their partner and so justify their action. Others choose to believe they're in love. My interpretation was mental gymnastics to alleviate guilt. If they decide they must be in love, they may believe they are therefore entitled, even compelled, to continue with the OP. Be careful, it is common for these people to tell their spouse they do not love the other person while in their mind that is the justification for their action. (I'm not saying there may not have been a problem in a marriage but often the affair causes the betrayer to focus on that rather than their selfishness in breaking marriage vows. If there is a problem, work on it, don't escape it. The pain from the affair will be a much more serious problem to everyone.) Pittman identified other types of affairs, romantic ones usually brought on by personality types but including accidental affairs that have been defined as being in love, and philanderers which were very difficult to overcome because the affairs are not based on marriage but personality of betrayer and marital arrangements which were a way to keep distance in the marriage but not to end it. Tremendous energy is directed at the marriage but not toward improving it in marital arrangements. In an article published after the book he also identified a type called Spider Woman in which a woman pursues married men and wrecks their marriages to restore a sense of power after she herself has been betrayed. Pittman offers different advice depending on the type of affair. But like Harley he says most affairs don't last after they are exposed.* <P> CT again: The painful part is that this often leaves one partner with renewed hope, yet it is a hallmark of the initial stages of separation. You will understand<BR> why the period after initial separation (for whatever reason it<BR> occurs) is often referred to as the "off-the-wall" stage!<P> Leaving a marriage is a frightening experience. People often long<BR> to return to the "known" , to what unrealistically and again often<BR> temporarily is remembered as an easier time. They want to return<BR> to a place that often false remembrances tell them is easier than<BR> the upheaval they are experiencing at the moment.<P>* Where does CT get off saying the memories of the marriage are false and unrealistic. The affair is the unreal state as it is built on dishonesty and stolen time and ignoring the reality of consequences. The upheaval of their guilt is creating the negative definitions of the marriage and rewriting history to rationalize and ease the guilt. Seems most of our spouses were willing to continue the marriage until the affair got exposed although some move toward ending the marriage even though the cuckold spouse hasn't learned of the affair.* <P> CT again: People will<BR> often try to return home at this time, or attempt to re-commit,<BR> usually only temporarily if they have already been to the point of<BR> physically moving out. They may make wild promises and grand<BR> declarations that prove temporary. Often they do love their<BR> partner, even if they are not able to continue the marriage. Guilt<BR> can be overwhelming for the partner who has left, especially if<BR> there are children involved.<P>* CT is implying that the betrayer made the choice to move out. Jo you are the one that chose to protect yourself when moved to Melbourne and Plan B is the betrayed spouse's choice to try to resolve the marriage. CT is ignoring that the upheaval of the separation may be what makes the betrayer realize what they are doing. The vacillation is because they are truly torn between two sources that are meeting needs. Pittman and Harley both point out that the joys and benefits of the secret affair decline rapidly upon exposure. Married love can't compete with the intensity of new love that is a world of two without kids, bills and general reality until the loss of all the wonderfulness of a committed love and life together are slipping away. On this web stie, Harley warned that separations have risks but he alo said that we must protect ourseves and in certain instances ven seaprate before Plan B. In His Needs Her Needs he seemd to say that a erquirement is to not put up with the affair antoher minute although I haven't yet sorted out how that fits in Plan A when we know the affair is continuing.*<P><BR> Ct again: Understand that the physical moving<BR> out is again the first step to the necessary emotional separation<BR> that follows, often in a wildly fluctuating manner.<P>*Again Ct seems to think marriages are inevitably ending if separation occurs.*<P> CT again: For the person<BR> who is left, and hanging on to the hopes that are bound to arise,<BR> it is important to get professional help and the support of friends<BR> and family to help maintain a position of strength. Statistics show<BR> that once a partner moves out, the chances for a solid<BR> reconcilliation drop dramatically. If a partner has made the drastic<BR> step of moving out, they are making an important declaration<BR> about their lack of desire to stay in a marriage. This seems an<BR> obvious, but a fact that can get lost in the whirlwind of emotion.<BR> A person who has left is usually someone who must go.<P>*All you Plan Bers are making the opposite choice. You are trying to save your marriage. There are those like me who said I wanted a separation early on hoping to jolt him. There are those like Jo who had to protect themselves from the pain and get themselves into a situation that made surviving the ongoing affair and becoming sudden single parents bearable. Pittman emphasized how often the betrayer is running from the mess and had not wanted to end the marriage but does not know what to do. My own betraying spouse asked me if it was possible to resume the marriage after "all this" has occurred. Betrayers truly may not know it is possible. They have something to distract them and cannot see the loss of what they are giving up and often cannot imagine that they can be forgiven. Often they keep lying about the affair even as they move out to "think it over", "it" beign this this horrible marriage they won't acknowledge has been damaged by the affair or as we ask them to leave. More on this denying the affair as they leave in a moment. I think CT is dead wrong that leaving is such a clear indication that they lack a desire to stay in.* <P> CT again: A partner who has an affair is also sending an important message.<BR> An affair does not occur in a strong, healthy marriage. This is also<BR> an obvious fact that denial encourages us to lose sight of.<BR> Unfortunately, an affair is often the signal of an eventual divorce,<BR> even if reconciliation is attempted or even successful for a short<BR> time. <P><BR>*I think most of us would agree that our marriages had some problems. Just remember that the end of the marriage doesn't crop up until the affair has begun (whether we know of affair or not) and usually not until the affair has become known even if they are still denying it. How many of you saw that the problems became drastically worse after the affair began but before you knew of it? There seem to be several couples on the site that have separated although the betrayer is still denying the extent of the affair. If they had truly written off the marriage, and were begging for the truth they should speak up. I think it is because they are confused as to what they want and avoiding guilt of us truly knowing. Pittman says guilt can be an indication of commitment to fidelity that they have betrayed. I say if the value is there it allows the betrayed some hope.<BR>I think we also agree that our marriages need some changes and are willing to make them if our spouses want a marriage.*<P> CT again: Marriages can survive infidelity, especially if the affair was of<BR> short duration, not a serious relationship, and if the partner<BR> regrets the choice and makes a wholehearted commitment to<BR> fixing the damaged relationship. There are always exceptions to<BR> this, naturally, but I beg to differ with Dr. Harley's numbers.<BR> Consider the important questions about the affair to determine if it<BR> was simply a cry for help. Was it of short duration? Was it a<BR> solitary event? Is the affair over? Is the partner intent on<BR> commitment? Have the partner's declarations been consistent and<BR> reliable and backed by action? If the answers to any of these<BR> questions is no, the marriage may be terminal. Releasing a dying<BR> marriage can bring sadness, but untold health and relief to both<BR> partners. <BR>*Harley and Pittman both disagree. The more intense and longer the affair continues, the harder it is to overcome but both cited cases of that happening. And here I have to agree with CT that it will take a commitment from the betrayer. Also CT's data bank was not full of people trying to do Plans A&B*<P> CT again: What is most damaging is when a couple or a member of such,<BR> gets stuck at any point along the stages of divorce that precede<BR> stability: Preseparation, Separation, Transition Phase, New<BR> Stability. Denial of the reality of the situation, getting hooked on<BR> high emotions or misinformation about the stages, can cause<BR> people to get stuck. Try to see and understand the partner's<BR> fluctuations for what they are. Set limits to what you will accept.<BR> Declarations of re-newed love feel good, but the pain that follows<BR> can be a damaging set-back to growth achieved. If you are stuck<BR> in a cycle of hope/despair, stop the ride and get off. A person<BR> who has left will vacillate. Read the posts in here and you will see<BR> that people take a like path through separation and divorce. See it<BR> for what it is. Encourage professional help, and get it for yourself<BR> if you haven't done so already. Someone must break the<BR> hope/despair cycle for new life to begin. Professional help can get<BR> you there.<P>*I agree that we can't live in this state forever but CT must not realize that we are also committing to ourselves to give our marriage our best efforts and then protect ourselves from much of the subsequent pain in Plan B. CT if you are reading this, I suggest you educate yourself as to what this is. So, if we are following the MB philosophy, if the plans are not successful we know we tried to work it out and gave ample opportunity to the spouse to wake up before whatever personal deadline we have set. That frees us from a lot of guilt and second guessing down the road.*<P>Jo: this is you.<P>Thanks guys, I read that and nearly fell of my chair......<BR> 'Consider this' has made me think about my leaving H, even tho<BR> he was the betrayer. I moved away to Brisbane because he<BR> said he was moving out anyway, and I just couldn't have coped<BR> with that. He would've come over every night to see the girls,<BR> and then left my home probably to go to OW. how can someone<BR> take that. 'consider this' seems to be saying that because I left<BR> and moved, that the marriage is dead. Can that be true.<BR> Oh god, the turmoil is back. !!<P>Jo you know that is not true. You are in a vulnerable state of emotions. I too sought an early separation but even then I knew I didn't want a divorce. I don't think I could have stood to live in the same house knowing he was going to her. <BR>Your situation is not absolutely hopeless. Your husband has maintained contact. He is not making a choice. Another source I think you could find helpful is an article, "Shattered Vows" by Shirley Glass, Ph.D. in Psychology Today July/August 1998. It's a magazine I assumeis available in Australia. <P>Hang in there.<P>Melissa<P>

Melissa,<P>thanks for spending so much time with me - especially given that you are going through it to. I'm going to print your response, and go through it slowly and taking deep breaths !!<BR>As i found this site after I had left H and moved to Brisbane,and have done all the reading and listening to you guys after I left, I am beginning to have doubts as to whether i acted to hastily by moving out. My point, and question here though is this: H said he would move out of the marital home in Melbourne anyway, H didn't want to live with me and the children...so...is there any difference betw. whether I moved out and away, or whether he did. To me, it's the same. Someone has still moved out. Am I missing a very important point here ? <BR>I too am in a dilemma about going to Plan B -yesterday I was so sure that it was the right thing to do, and today I think I haven't deposited enough love units into his love bank. I think he needs a bit more 'credit' where his love bank is concerned, and then I can go to Plan B. I don't know if I've done enough work depositing those damn love units - it's so hard with the images of him with her tho'<BR>I will persevere with Plan A I think for one more week, and make a concerted effort to deposit a lot more - and then go to Plan B<BR>Who knows what I will do next week - I don't even know what I'm doing in the next 10 minutes !!!<BR>You are an angel. Thanks<BR>Jo

I agree with those on here who said "consider this" is probably trying to help . . . BUT, I also agree that it is probably some student trying out grad school philosophy. Stay with your friends on here. Sounds like you have some pretty good ones. Believe me, they will be the ones who save you.

Melissa, I realy liked the way you explored CT's answer. And I agree with it.<BR>Good post!<P>Jo don't take one person's opinion as "the truth" and don't let it upset you so. We can listen to what others have to say,and sometimes we learn from it, but we have to follow what we feel should be done.<P>Take care<BR>Kat<P>Take care<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Jo,<P>You ask if there is any difference as to who moved out. I think there is because of the why. I made a point in my earlier post that CT implied that the betrayer chose to move. Betrayers are moving out for very different reasons than yours. Remember that they are in an entirely different mind frame. They have something cushioning them from the stark reality. But reality will intrude. You moved physically but you still have daily contact. He is getting both worlds but you have exposed the OW to pressures on him that he didn't have before. He is missing his children. He has to explain to callers and others that you are no longer there and try to weasel around the truth. If he lies, he has to experience the guilt of lying and the why he lied, no matter what he is saying aloud and/or to you.<P>I too think I was too hasty but I have to go from here. I try to see the bright side of this. Also, Harley's SAA book was addressed to situations where the betrayer initially said they were giving up OP and remaining with spouse. We, and several others on list, appear to be in different boat. My question is how to reconcile the plans with Harley's chapter on affairs in His Needs Her Needs when he said not to put up with it a minute. Our actions have been a clear message that we won't tolerate another woman in our marriage as if nothing had happened. I've been clear that I don't want a divorce but I cannot continue as his wife if he continues with her. It took nearly two months for him to begin believing that and I mean begin, he is nowhere near fully realizing it. However, I am grateful that some glimmering seems to have set in. I don't know how he got it. Part may have been me getting advice from an attorney and talking legal separation and part may have been a 3 week period of no contact and me finally being able to have contact that didn't degenerate into a snarling, attacking nonproductive yelling match. I studied all this during the 3 weeks and began a delayed plan A. I hope part is how the affair is not so fun now that the thrill of sneaking is gone and seeing that she had better be damn valuable to make up for the price it's costing and that she may not be quite so endearing now that his time with her is laced with his anxiety over facing ruining his marriage. She's probably not enjoying it so much now. It's no longer stolen moments they'll make the most of. They have plenty of freedom to be together. Now there is probably some down time in which she has to deal with him missing me or at least his life before instead of me being that horrible albatross standing in the way of their pleasure.<P>Look on the bright side. In a way you have both worls too. You still have contact and chanced to deposit credits and don't have the pain of of it being in your face. UI vacilate between this delayed Plan A and full B also but this moment I'm going to continue it.<P>And yes, I am fantasizing about having a real man, one who loves me and has to balls to stand up and do what is right and wants and is willing to make the effort to have a relationship that works.<P>Good luck. <P>Kat,<P>Thanks for your reply. <P>To all on list, thank you for existing. This list has been such a Godsend for me. Keep up your posts. I'm learning and feel better after I read. Knowing there are so many others going through this adventure sure makes it easier.<P>Melissa

hi Callie,<BR>thanks again.<P>Isn't it amazing that just when we think we are the ONLY ones that could possibly be in so much pain, and the only one's going thru this mess - along come others just like ourselves.<BR>I wouldn't wish this upon anyone (except maybe OW down the track when she has a man of her own - cant help it - only human !!)<P>I've just majorly love busted with H tonight - do you think you could read my latest new topic and help out with that one too.?? I hate to ask but you seem to be at exactly the same stage as me.<P>Where do I send the cheque, and do you want US$ for all your words of wisdom !!!<P>you're wonderful, but what are you still doing up ? It's only 8.10 pm Mon here<P>Thanks again <P>Jo

Consider this said something about that most separations end in divorce. If the divorce rate is 50%, and you randomly pick 100 marriages, 50 of them will end in divorce. Virtually all divorces are preceeded by separations. Let's say that in 90% of other marriages there is at least one separation, a figure that is probably way too high. That would mean 45 couples separate and stay married. Even in that case "most" separations would have led to divorce - 50/95. With a 50% divorce rate, statistically it is inevitable that "most" separations lead to divorce - therefore that is a meaningless statistic.

I just got back from a fun weekend and then to read this. Blew me away. I know when I read Consider This post I got very upset. <BR>Bonnet, when My H left to move in with OW, I left my job and moved out of town. Not as far as you but it is a two hour drive. I have always wondered if I did the right thing. Maybe I didn't for our marriageBUt it was the right thing for me. I could not have handled being in the same town worried about running into them and knowing he was with her. So my well-being at this point was more important. BUt I don't think it was wrong for my marriage of course I won't know fora very long time if it was or wasn't. BUt I know by doing this I have been able to handle the situation better. <BR>You need your family's support at a time like this. As you get your strength back then you will be able to work on your marriage. Don't give up. What one person says is always right just because this person says it is so. To me this sounds like something copied out of a textbook or another person's writing. And it may be from a combination of articel, butit has been taken out of context. It also is odd that this person hasn't responsed since. Of course I have gone through everything I have missed this weeked, but the fact is this person has responsed in tis three post. So that makes me think some thing are not quite on the up and up. Again I think it was a lot of things taken out of context to stir up some trouble. Don't let it get you down. Rely one those you are in the same shoes and who post a lot here. They know exactly how you feel and know the pain all too well.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Hi SDS,<BR>thanks for responding. I've just had a really good nights sleep - no nightmares and no time spent thinking of them together (you know that awful time just before you drift off ??)<P>I've decided that I will ignore what consider this has written, I trust myself, and more importantly, I trust you guys more. Like so many of you have said, noone could really know what we are going thru until they go thru it themselves - walking in my shoes !!!<P>I think I found ME again, yesterday I really lost it when I read that.<P>I have also decided definitely that Plan B is for me, from today. I spoke to H last night when H rang for D and asked if we could discuss d's school enrolment. She is just about to start school for the first time, and his response was 'if you're quick'.<BR>I lost it, and told him to F.... Off (can't believe I said that, I have never told him that in 12 years together) If he can't be bothered even discussing his D, then there really is no option but plan B. I cant keep depositing love units when he is now seemingly uninterested in his children.<P>Thanks for taking the time with me - I need you guys.<P>Jo

Bonnie, would reply but this topic seems tohave fallen of thelist. Am very frustrated with thislist although it has nomanypositive features I dadn't seen before. fairly new at all this internet communication. Am hoping this response will put this back on list.<P>Nellie,<BR>Good point. <BR>Statistics can be aquite meaningliss. I teach sociology ( I try and get paid for the effort) and the whoel area ofstatistics is a crapshoot without knoing howand where the data came came from. That 50% divorcde rate isreal but it ncludes kids who gotmarried beforethey wer 18, nearly a 90% cghance of divorce and the multiple marriages, with each new one the chances ofstaying married go down. If anyone reading this is despairing, the chances of second marriages stying intact beats first marriges afer many years 10 to 15, don't make me go lookit upright now! The point is, kinda like what Nelliesaid , satistics have to be considered with many factors. They are a snapshot and summary. When and where was th shapshot taken and who is it summarizing.<P>Enough. I am doing a test on web. I was nvoled in some post last night and couldnotfnd them today. I hope thisberings this back to infidelty post. I had gone to further pages but ehy were droping back n tiem. <P>Callie AKA Melissa