Hi folks,<P>When my H saw the OW he told her that he missed her everyday, and thought of her everyday. He then went on to say that he wasn't sure if it was her (the individual) that he missed or the idea of her.<P>This has led me to analyse my thoughts and feelings for my H. Is it the person that I miss or the idea of him, and what he represents in my life.<P>Sometimes I think it's both. Other times I'd say it's the idea of him. <P>Can I really miss and love a man capable of causing me so much pain and sadness? Can I really miss a man that is able to walk out on his 10 month old?<P>I know I miss his companionship, his comfort, his laughter and sense of humor. I miss him in my bed, and I miss having a drink with him at the end of the day, catching up on the daily events. I also miss the security and sense of protection (up until now, he killed all the spiders....)he provided. I miss having someone to help me parent our D (esp. at 3 am). I miss his touch and smell, and cleaning up after him. Yes, I know I miss him very much, but do I miss <B> HIM </B> or the <B> idea of him? </B><P>How 'bout you guys?<P>{aka Raenbow}<P>------------------<BR><B> <I> Black Heart </B> </I>

i guess it depends if you believe in "soulmates", and think your H is yours. if so, then you certainly miss him.<BR>if you think there are "other fish in the sea", then you miss the idea of him. either way, it is a pain to not have help at 3am, and to have to kill your own spiders...<BR><P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.alladvantage.com<BR>ID#" TARGET=_blank>www.alladvantage.com<BR>ID#</A> atp-113<P>

Hey BH,<P>I also wondered about this subject. Do I miss 'Valerie' or do I miss the person who just happens to be holding the position of my W?<P>I have decided that I miss the old Valerie, [the beautiful blonde with blue eyes that worshipped the ground I walked on, well maybe not worshipped but she had great respect for me] but not the woman she is now. The old Val is the one I fell in love with so many years ago and pledged my life to until death do us part. In sickness and in health. I consider her to be "sick" right now and will wait awhile to see if she gets any better. It is unfortunate that presently she is MIA in Fanstasyland. <P>I can not turn off my love for her like a light switch and believe that she can not <BR>do that for her love for me either. I don't think anyone could unless there was some type of abuse in the marriage.<P>Boy, your H comments must have hurt like the dickens. I hope you had your "shields up".<P>I'm a little concerned with your name change. I really liked Raenbow better. I'm sure your are just in one of the dips in the coaster ride. It will get better. It did for me.<P>Hang on Raenbow, wer'e all pulling for ya.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

How can we tell the difference between who someone really is and our idea of who they are? All we really have, ultimately, is our idea of them, which may be completely different from their idea of themselves. (Much of the past year-and-a-half of my W and me going to couples counseling was to get us really to see this simple fact.) Just a few Wexwillian mystic musings and mumblings. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Blackheart,<P>Excellent issue. I too have been pondering this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Can I really miss and love a man capable of causing me so much pain and sadness?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I keep wondering "who IS this person?" The woman I fell in love with and married (seemingly) didn't have it within her to betray, deceive, evade, etc. And upon being confronted to just continue doing so... Ah, um, ... I'm speechless! <P>And what kind of invertebrate have <B>I</B> become that I will even consider trying to repair our marriage against her resistance? Ok, there are two kids involved, but what example am I setting for them? To accept any kind of dehumanizing treatment from your spouse? To hold onto some imaginary relationship against all rational evidence of its demise?<P>Am I <B>SO</B> attached to the "idea" of our marriage and my wife that now <B>I</B> have lost touch with reality?<P>As you can tell I am teetering on the edge of the abyss. Didn't mean for this to sound so dark - because it really is a good question. I just don't like what I am finding as I dig deeper into it.

Hi guys,<BR>Been busy at work, so it's taken me awhile to get back here. Thanks for all your responses.<P>Love WAS blind- Yes, I used to think he was my soulmate. I can remember the first time I met him. He was 18, and handsome. But the thing that really struck me was how much of a nice, down to earth guy he was. He made me feel at ease instantly. After that I knew he was my soulmate. And everytime I saw a shooting star, I wished us a lifetime of happiness. I guess wishing on shooting stars doesn't work, and soulmates change. Who knows, he might still be my soulmate, but not in the state of mind he is in right now. As for the 3am wakeups, my D is being nice and sleeping through the night now. But the spiders still get me everytime.<P>Medic238- I like the idea of thinking he's 'sick'. It sort of fits. I know that the qualities and traits in him that I love are still there, but that a side of his personality (some traits and qualities) I hadn't met before have come out. The side I love is still there too, just momentarily hiding (out of guilt, I hope).<P>Yup, his comments did hurt, but I think that was his intention. I think he was/is trying to drive us away. But like you, I'll give it some time to see if he recovers. In the end, even with this side to him, and the deeds he's done, I want him back. It's like I'm missing my arm or leg without him here. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life with anyone but him, or even without him.<P>The name change was a nessecity. I've moved out and forgot to bring my password with me. So I had to re-register. I agree the name is a bit bleak....but it shows the mood I was in at the time. Today, things look brighter.<BR>And yes, I wish <B>us all the best!</B><P>Wexwill- I couldn't have put it in to words like you did. I was thinking along those lines too. Please, continue to muse. It helps us all.<P>2sad4words- I believe you have to face the darkness in order to know yourself and what you want. I don't think it's your attachment to marriage, per se, but to the marriage partner that causes you to be plunged into chaos when the W deserts the relationship. If it were that simple, more of us would abandon ship, and marry the next person to cross our paths.<P>I think that to question like this is healing, and very theraputic. It means that we are actively trying to accept what has happened, analyzing the events in context to the new image of our spouses, and re-evaluating how we fit in amongst it all. I know I'm not saying this right, but I'm not quite sure how else to word it.<P>I think that the image the children get would be of a <B> MAN </B> who's love is so strong and unconditional, who's not afraid to work for what he wants, and what he feels is right. They see a man who is not afraid to feel, whether it be pain or happiness.<P>They take their lead from you too. If you show compassion for your W's addiction, they might follow. In the end, if nothing else, their own relationship with MOM might not suffer because of any feelings of loyalty they have for you. They will not feel that they have to choose, that it's okay to love you <B>both very much</B>. You have shown them some valuable lessons about forgiveness, and love.<P>Medic238 thinks of this phase as a sickness, and if she were medically sick, would you give up hope? Would you abandon her when she denies her sickness? Or would you stay, and try to help her fight, give her strength, love and support?<P>Out of all the people in the world, our spouses know that they can treat us badly because they know that to a certain extent we'll take it. I don't think that the bad behaviour is a conscious thing, but something akin to a knee jerk reaction. And the thing is, one knee jerk reaction starts a whole chain of reactions, where their bad behaviour gets compounded. If we see it for what it is, we, then, don't take it personally.<P><BR>Once again, thanks for your replies.<BR>{<I>aka Raenbow</I>}<P><P>------------------<BR><B> <I> Black Heart </B> </I>

This is a very interesting topic, and of course, I have an opinion concerning my situation.<P>I feel that my expectations of him were shattered very early in our marriage. I'm sure his of me were too. What replaced that head over heals love feeling for me was the "Idea" that he would keep his vows to me and now that has been shattered also.<P>We had a marriage that was based on a promise and a license and wasn't based on either each other. <P>We were just two people sharing a bed and pooling resources to raise some kids.<P>His OW became a replacement for that need to dream. With her it was definitely the idea of her.<P>After I found out and didn't leave, then my H was able again to have the "Idea" of me, but it is still not me. He is depending on the idea of having the marriage we should have had and could have had from the beginning. He has the comfort of finding out there was more to me than he thought. I have become more attentive, and attractive and aggressive to satisfying his needs.<P>I am having to deal with the knowledge that there is even less than I thought, he didn't live up to my Idea of being faithful. He too has tried to be a better husband to me, but I relied so long on my idea of him as faithful and considered it so very important that I am having trouble letting the other things make me happy.<P>I need both the H and the idea of the H. I have my H still, he never left and we actually have a pretty good marriage if by some miracle we could remove the affair. What I am missing is my idea of a faithful husband, because I do not have that and never will again.

Somewhere I read that in most affairs, it is not actually the op (which are in reality usually no better or worse than the betrayed spouse) that the spouse, it is how the op makes them feel. (okay, it's kinda psychological mumbo jumbo, but I feel so true). Perhaps this is why so many of the unfaithful say things like, "i never felt so good when I was with him/her" or "he/she made me feel so alive."<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited November 17, 1999).]

So the betrayed have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they can never make their spouses feel that good?<P>I hear so much about this then I hear that it never really goes away. They never truly forget the good, even if they regret it. Why shouldn't we feel like consolation prizes?<p>[This message has been edited by Essyboo (edited November 17, 1999).]

Essyboo-<BR>You shouldn't feel like a consolation prize. Have faith in the devine (if you are religous) or at least in human nature. I, myself, would not settle for second best in anything. Maybe a second rate job, while I search for my dream job, but that's about it. My mother has asked me if I would take my H back after all he's done, if I would settle for him for the sake of this marriage, or for the sake of our D. But I don't look at it that way. I think of my H as the prize (1st) and that his affair is just an obstacle to overcome.<P>Furthermore, I believe that should he come back, he won't be settling for me either. It's not that I have faith in him and his judgement (for I don't at the moment), but that I have faith in human nature. I believe its human nature to do what makes us feel good, to keep doing what makes us feel good, and his coming back and wanting to commit to the marriage would be because it would feel right, be the best thing for him to do to make him feel good and whole.<P>Yeah, sure he will remember the good times or the way the affair made him feel good, but he can use that memory to help him in the here and now. Sure, the memories of the affair may be special to him, and you feel cheated for not sharing those memories with him, but don't cut yourself short, and think that they will be his ultimate memories, the ones that he places on a pedastal and worships day after day. If that were the case, why is he with you? You might be surprised to know that it's the memories of you that are most dear to him, and the reason he is with you now.<P>Don't forget that everytime he remembers the OP or moments of the affair, he druges up feelings of guilt and pain too. But when he remembers courting you, marrying you and being with you now, he only feels happiness or joy.<P>As for the IDEA OF HIM or the IDEA OF MARRIAGE, well, you make of them what you want. The marriage has the beauty of being able to evolve into something you both want, a result of both your efforts. Marriage is more than just a piece of paper that unites and binds us legally. If you work on it like building a house, one brick at a time, to a blue-print of your ideal marriage, you will find that you will get there in time. It might not be exactly to plan, but it will be unique, and 100% your own. And it will be made by a labour of love, and therefore very loving. And in time, the part about faithfullness will be restored. You might look back to this time, and think that it had to happen in order to get you where you will be, that the affair was a means to a perfect ending in your marriage.<P>Do not give this betrayal, indiscretion or affair any more power or force than it deserves. Do not let it wreck havoc within you. Spend a bit of each day focusing on you and your H, not on the past but on your future. The future is the only part you can have input to, the only part you can change. It is the only part left that can define you, who you want to be.<P>All my best,<P>------------------<BR><B> <I> Black Heart </B> </I>

Hi guys,<P>I agree with EVERYTHING. I've just got back from the Gold Coast where I walked along the beach and actually felt at peace with myself.<BR>I'm now in day 2 of Plan B - and it's killing me. Reading what you've all just said has put in to words the things I was thinking as I walked that beach from end to end. I won't settle for second best, either from H or from myself. Somewhere, at some time, and when the time is right, the answers will be there for me. Whether that is if H comes home, at whether its when I'm deciding should i file for divorce, I believe I will feel and know what is right.<P>There's no peace from my 2 kids at the moment - baby sick and teething, and older d just being a pain in the but. God love 'em.<P>Everyone take care of YOU, <P>JO

BlackHeart: You have so much wisdom and grace and I am humbled by your forgiveness. I am the one with the black heart because I tend to be bitter and vindictive when I am so blessed. Your name should be Braveheart or Lion heart. Thanks for the things you said tonight. Catnip

Bonnet,<P>Funny thing; I was planning to flee to the Gold Coast too, but my friends and family convinced me to stay and face this head on. Just the thought of that long beach, and nameless faces (mostly tourists) appealed, and of course the hope that he would follow.<P>I think there is truth to what has been written, that we miss both the individual and the idea of him/her, but in the end, it's them that we miss most; their quirkiness, their spark. I don't believe we'd be here if it wasn't.<P>Glad to see that your kids are living up to their part of the bargin- being typical kids that is. Teething is a pain ain't it? My D has only cut her 2 bottom ones so far, and boy did I know it.<P>What is it with these men, that makes them turn their backs on their babies? I don't know about yours, by mine looks like she is clone from him. And she is so cute and sweet. Maybe its the responsibilies, the thought that they might fail, who knows?<P>Catnip-<BR>Thanks for your kind words. I just write what I feel at the time. I guess I still love him, and want so much to put this behind us. But I do know that he won't accept my forgiveness until he can forgive himself. He is his own worst judge, his own worst enemy.<P>Keep strong, safe and happy,<P>------------------<BR><B> <I> Black Heart </B> </I>