I know you're not in family law, but tell me what you think about this situation.<P>If my H won't leave the house for me and my girls to be together in the form of legal separation .... and I leave the house for 6 months to "get myself together" ... will that be construed as abandonment and possibly used against me if there was custody issues down the road in the event of a divorce?<P>I can see my H saying that he's not leaving the house, and then my only option is for ME to leave. I don't wanna leave the girls, but it doesn't make sense to uproot them and squeeze them into a tiny apartment and let their dad have the ENTIRE house to himself ....<P>I don't want any judge thinking that I'm abandoning my post as MOTHER.<BR>

Back to the top .... I gotta go home now. Will talk to you tomorrow!!!<P>Thanks!

Maya--<P>I am not an attorney. Just went through a motion for custody change though. (we won)<P>I defer to Lonestar, of course...however, just wanted to mention in my state (Kentucky)a change in custody that is not agreed upon cannot be requested for 2 years--unless certain statutory requirements are met, including proving harm TO the child if left in the same environment. This is to prevent pingponging children for reasons other than their best interests.<P>Is there any way you and your H can AGREE in written form to you moving out and establishing yourself, then regaining them in your primary care? Would make things a lot easier later.<P>Laura

<BR>Maya,<P>I haven't followed your story too closely. Why are you so intent on separating? Wouldn't your daughters need their father?<P>I'm also very torn by this decision because of the children involved. Isn't there an ethical conundrum in betraying your spouse, and then later suing him for child support? Is it fair to hit him with such a financial burden when it was your decision to separate?<P>I don't mean to flame you, Maya. This is one of those cases that seem very unfair to the husband. And I just don't think separations do any good.<P>Bystander

Maya:<P>Not sure if there's precedent suggesting that a mother who leaves the house would be considered an abandoner in your type of situation. Not familiar enough with family law to answer that competently.<P>However, I do know trial law, and divorce/custody proceedings are "trial law" of sorts. Any attorney your H employed would be under an ethical obligation to try ANYTHING to get the result his client wants. That means, he'd have to at least make the argument that you abandoned your children.<P>Would a judge buy that? Depends on the judge. However, the argument <I>could</I> be made, and it would be something you'd have to bring up with your own attorney as a possible scenario.<P>That's one reason that a [i]legal[/i separation might be good in your case. It would specify that H gets primary custody for the period of the separation, but that in the event of a divorce, new custody arrangements could be established. Better to have it in writing. With no writing, a judge would have ONLY your word against his in a divorce proceeding. At least with a writing, you could specify that giving H custody is soley in the interest of NOT uprooting the girls, and should not be construed as abandonment.<P>Then, of course, you'd have to live by the terms and visit them when it's called for, or else he could make the argument that you didn't live up to the terms. Gets complicated.<P>The question you have to ask yourself is "What is the long-term effect of you leaving?" It might push the girls more into wanting to be with their dad rather than you if a divorce occurs. They may see it as abandonment even if it's not legally called that.<P>I know it's hard to deal with, but I really would talk to a lawyer in your state before I did anything. You've got to think of ALL the ramifications of leaving and what it will do to you later if you end up asking for divorce. You don't want to be caught behind the eight ball. And, yo CERTAINLY don't want to give your H any leverage if a divorce becomes unavoidable.<P>I know I haven't been much help, but I sure hope things work out for you, regardless of what you decide.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

My girlfriend's is paying right now for her mistakes....<P>She got involved with someone, gave up on the marriage, and ended up leaving her husband and kids - temporarily. Temporary custody was awarded to him - because she left. <P>Couple years later, she is paying child support to him, and it will cost her $5000 to retain an attorney to change custody. And the likelihood of it changing is pretty slim.<P>Maya, don't leave the kids. Whatever you do, don't leave the kids.<P>TNT<BR>

How old are the kids Maya???<P>If they're anything under 18, don't leave them. I know TOO many women who did the same and are paying dearly.<P>Be careful, sweetie!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P>

Thanks for the info, guys.<P>That was my gut feeling ... and you all confirmed it. I cannot leave those girls. Period. They are 15 and 11.<P>I haven't begun discussing this with H yet. I know he will be crushed, but it seems to be an answer for both of us. He doesn't want a divorce and I need space. And who's to say in 6 months I'm missing him so very badly that I'm right back home. Ya know?<P>Finances are very much an issue. If he were to move out for a while, possibly live with someone and not have additional bills, then it would be easier. But if he says he's not leaving, then he forces me to leave with the girls ... and rent an apartment. Added living expenses. (and he has the entire house to himself with the dog, the bird and the bunny)<P>

Maya, this may have been covered before, but have you told your H about this forum? I said something to my W and she posted. I dont know if it positive for us or not- but her being here, if only once, was good. I know I have learned so much about my mistakes in this relationship and how to not do them.<BR>I hope for the best for all of you, - H, kids and you.

We dont' have a computer at home, so he can't post. I've told him I write here, and taken home some of the posts for him to read.<P>

Maya, <P>It hurts me so much that you have helped so many here and yet we can't seem to help you. We can't find the right words to help your marriage heal. We can't find the right words to lift you out of this depression. We can't find the right words to help you keep trying. <P>I fear this separation you seek is the beginning of the end. Isn't there some other way?<P>SHA

I can understan where your husband is at Maya. I have told my wife the same thing.<BR>I guess what is so hard is the letting go and allowing the other one free to discover their path in life. I sthere also issues of trust- i see alot of mistrust in your posts towards him, espcially concerning the kids. Is he so blind as not to see your pain and hurt- is he unwilling, only caring about "outside appearances"?<BR>sometimes a break and allowing others to go their own way is the way to get there.<BR>I m sorry we are all in this place- you, my W, me, and all who post here at all.<BR>As a husband who was NEVER concerned about my wifes feelings - i know his stubborness and unwillingnesss. Still hoping for the best.

He's tried so hard, covenant. There have been many changes ... I believe the break would be good for him too. He's been working his butt off, and hasn't seen any progress ... but seems content with that.<P>And I thought I could just "exist" and be compliant ... but I can't. I've tried that for a year ... and nothing's different ..... except that OM is out of my life ... he was really fogging up the issue.<P>I will still be going to the counselor (been trying to get in sooner from a cancelation--no luck yet) because I do believe I am clinically depressed and need help with that.<P>I just really really really need some space and time alone ...<BR>

Hey Maya:<P>It's blunt old K again.<P>I really believe that you need to address your depression before you do anything that's going to hurt your marriage. And that includes separation.<P>And frankly, I'd have you ask yourself this important question if you're still considering a separation:<P>"Who would my daughters be better off with right now?? Me or my husband?"<P>I'm fully aware of all the legal ramifications that can be incurred when a spouse separates (hey---I did it too). But if you have the capacity to step back and look at this situation from a non-emotional point-of-view, you may decide that your husband is better suited for primary custody right now.<P>And one other point: my SIL did a few weeks of inpatient therapy at a hospital several years ago (she had four children at the time). It really did help her tremendously at the time. If you think that your problems are of that serious nature (and from what I see out of you here---you're close), you may want to check that option out.<P>I wish I had a wand to wave to make this go away---but I don't. Please take your depression seriously, and get into a professional soon.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited November 17, 1999).]

Thanks, K, for your concern! I do appreciate it.<P>Actually, when it's just me and the girls (like last weekend) we do GREAT! We laugh and giggle, we pile on the sofa and watch movies together .... because I'M more at ease when H isn't around.<P>You cannot believe how much weight was taken off me by having him gone just over the weekend. That's what made me realize that I need some space ....<P>I'm not minimizing my depression issue. I do believe there are problems there .. and I WILL address them. I promise.<P>I just need some space from H. He's unintentionally suffocating me. Part of my insanity I do believe.

Maya, <P>Forgive me for what I'm about to say, but I say these things as your brother in Christ.<P>I whole heartedly disagree with the Legal Separation idea. <P>This rings too strongly of "self". I think I have a walked a mile, probably further in your husband's shoes. I <B>know</B> what it is like to have a wife go through the things he has experienced. I think of everything you have written about him, how hard he is working to restore your marriage, the fact that he has forgiven you, and on and on and yet the answer seems to be "I want him out of my life." To top it off, he is being rewarded by having his kids taken from him too. And you think this will be better for him? Do you think this will be better for your kids?<P>I'm not sure how much your kids know about what has happened to you and what is currently going on between you and your husband; but I sense resentment is on its way. <P>If your husband did post here, I'm not sure what advice we could offer him? He seems to be doing almost everything by the book to help your marriage heal and yet it seems to be in vain.<P>Have you permanently locked him out as a friend? Does he really understand this need of yours? Do you just not want him to fill that need? Are you and your husband praying together for your marriage? I have asked you that several times and I don't recall getting an answer. <P>I just don't see any "good" coming out of a Legal Separation Maya. I don't just want you to heal Maya, I want you, your husband and your marriage to heal. <P>Isn't there some other way?<P>SHA

Thanks for caring, SHA. I do appreciate it. There's always gonna be someone that doesn't agree with what I'm doing. I envision an entire church completely disowning me. (the loving church family that they claim to be)<P>Fact is I just have no feelings for H. I care about him. Hate that I've hurt him. I look at him and think he deserves so much more. But he's suffocating me.<P>No we're not friends, we really have never had that kind of relationship. And no, we don't pray together. We don't have that kind of relationship either. He's mentioned it, but I haven't pursued it.<P>I guess it IS about self. I'm trying to save myself before I explode. I cannot stay where I'm at and not go insane. I'm trying my best to be a good wife, and meet HIS needs ... but it's driving me over the edge.<P>I thought I could "exist" for the kids' sake. But as I look at it, I believe it would be better for them to see their mom stable and happy ... like I was last weekend when H was gone hunting. You cannot believe the weight that was lifted, knowing that he wouldn't be there and I wouldn't have to be "pretending" to be a good wife, etc.<P>I'm sorry you don't agree. Separation seems like a good option because he gets what HE wants -- we stay married. And I get out physically. I don't want another man, no way no how. They are too much trouble, and relationships just suck. If I don't get close to someone then they can't hurt me. That's what I've learned.

Maya,<P>If my Wife were in your situation, there is absolutely no way I would let her leave with the kids, as much as I want to save the marriage.<P>Why a legal separation? Why not just discuss the issue of getting a separate place?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

I started to stay out of this one but K, SHA, and Chris ring too true.<P>When my W left the kids stayed with me. If my W leaves tomorrow the kids will stay with me. If ever my W wanted to truly be on the other end of my bad side (we all have one) all she would have to do his try and take our kids from me.<P>She claimed that if I didn't let her take them with her that I was taking them away from her. No, she was leaving them. They were staying in their home. Maya your kids have a home. Whether you are there or not they have a home, it's up to you if you leave that home and them.<P>As with K, treat the depression. With this on the up swing things might look better at home. I would not let my children leave with my W if I knew she was as depressed as you sound sometimes, I would fear for them.<P>As with SHA, Why do you shy away from God? Why do you not pray? How much praying do the people that are telling you to leave do? How much praying do the ones telling you to stay do? I can not see how God would think it better for you to leave your H, unless God has another path for your H. Who is guiding your path?<P>And I know Chris and I agree that we will be with our kids every step of the way. Period.<P>Maya, you do what you think you have to. We'll pray that God does what He will do because that is one thing we can count on.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Maya, <P>I hope I'm not coming across as beating you up over this issue but I want you to make sure you understand what is at stake.<P>Many moons ago, my wife told me she wanted out. We talked in length of what the possibilities were and what it would mean to the kids and us. She was where you are (maybe not as bad) but I was indeed suffocating her. <P>I stood firm in stating that I would not give up my rights to the kids. She thought I would enjoy the break of only having them half the time. I said no. I said if she wanted space, that she should go not the kids. She finally decided to stay and not disrupt their life with some agreements on my part. I had to figure out how to not be so suffocating. She stated that she had no desire to meet my needs at that point and she wasn't sure when/if she ever could. I accepted that knowing she was working through some pretty tough issues. <P>Now, I know she is happy she stayed. I have given her space. She takes the kids to places on her own and gets plenty of one-on-one time with them. I offer things for us to do together; sometimes she accepts sometimes she doesn't. I have learned to not take the rejection personal. Over time (many months) she is warming up to me more. She certainly appreciates me not being so needy of her attention. The past 9 months have given us time to become friends again. We are far from husband and wife intimacy, but I always have hope.<P>Maya, I think there is another way for you and your husband if he is acceptable to it. You need to outline what space is for you. If that means moving into to spearate bedrooms for now, than so be it. You, of course, will need to compromise on a few things. Meeting all his needs right now is not possible for you but I'm sure you can meet some. For instance, doing things together as a family. If physical intimacy with him is not possible (sex), then how about just going out for coffee and talking a little and maybe a nice hug? <P>My wife allowed me to be her friend again. It wasn't easy at first, in fact it was down right frustrating and uncomfortable, but we tried and kept trying and now we can go out for coffee or something and talk for hours.<P>Maya, maybe you and your husband are trying for a home run with being husband and wife again and not going real slow to being friends. Perhaps if you did try to be friends first maybe your marriage could work out. <P>I don't know - just throwing out a few ideas.<P>All I know is that I wouldn't lose my kids over this and I would do what ever I had to do to keep them. If your goal is to make your husband lose any love he has for you, taking the kids from him would certainly have done it for me.<P>Think this through Maya before you take make that leap.<P>SHA