Some of the betrayers have complained that their spouses treated them disrespectfully for years. I felt the same way about my H - if he thinks I should know something and I don't, he acts like I am an idiot; if I ask him a question and he does not know the answer, he acts like I am an idiot to expect him to. There were times when I couldn't take it anymore and responded to his disrespectful judgments in kind, but, unlike him, I carefully avoided saying or doing anything that would embarass him in public, and even after he left he said he always thought I acted like I loved him. Yet he was the one to have an affair and desert his family for the OW, all the while blaming me because he "didn't like my basic personality". Now he is furious at me because I don't want a divorce.<P>As long as I have known him, he has always been angry. His anger has not always been directed at me, but he was always angry at someone. Angry at welfare mothers because they supposedly had more money to clothe their children than his parents did, angry at his employers and co-workers because they didn't know how to manage or do their jobs right, angry at big business and yuppies who are destroying the family farm (ok, that makes me angry, too), angry at those few people who are actually not losing their shirts farming, angry that his life didn't turn out to be everything he hoped. We discussed how he had rarely been happy; he always thought he'd be happy if only we had a, or did b, or moved to c. But he decided that he could, "Never be happy in a relationship with me". It didn't matter that he wasn't happy before he met me, either, I am the cause of all his unhappiness, and now I expect he thinks that he will finally be happy as soon as he is divorced from me. But it wouldn't matter - then he would think that he would finally be happy if he didn't have to pay so much child support, or if I were raising the kids differently, or he will blame me for the kids being angry at him. It will always be all my fault, no matter what. He will always find something to blame me for, there will always be some reason to hate me. <P>It was a mistake to love him, it was a mistake to treat him better than he treated me. From what I have read here, few betraying spouses treat the betrayed with the intensity of hatred that he has shown to me. I wouldn't feel quite so bad if I had been a terrible wife, but while I wasn't perfect I certainly tried to be a loving wife. I have come to the conclusion that the nicer you are to your spouse, the crueler they will be when they betray you. And Plan A just made things worse.<P>

Nellie:<P>You sound so miserable! Maybe this is so out of line for me to say, but why do you hold out for the "slight" chance that he'll see the light? I mean no disrespect with what I'm saying. I wasn't the perfect wife either, but I sure knew when enough was enough. I just couldn't see hanging on for a man who really was so clearly not interested in me at all. It just made me more depressed.

TL,<BR>Because this doesn't make any sense. I know he has suffered from depression all his life, but he used to be a caring father, and he used to appear to love me. We used to have so many common goals and interests - what was important to us in life used to be so much the same. He used to like to spend time with me - so many times if he was working on building something for instance, he just liked to have me keep him company. In early October he went on a business trip and hugged me tight before he left and said he would miss me. And virutally overnight all that changed. On Columbus Day weekend of 1998, he went to a movie alone, because neither of the older girls or I like war movies. He asked more than once if anyone would like to go - as he was going out the door, I had a sudden overwhelming feeling that I should go with him, but it seemed illogical so I didn't. Now I wonder if his asking repeatedly if someone wanted to go with him was because he wanted someone to stop him from meeting her - I found out later that he had called her several times while on his business trip. I can still see him as he stood at the door saying see you later - my H died that night. When I awoke at 1:30 and realized he was not home yet, I had never felt such fear - I thought he had died in a car crash, because he had never not let me know if he was going to be really late, he had never let me worry - and I was not far wrong. The man who came back in the middle of the night was not the same man who left. I drove to the theater expecting to see his car on the side of the road, hoping that he had just broken down and not crashed. He arrived home and was inexplicably furious with me for going out to look for him. The children were incredulous that he had not called. From that day on, he rapidly became more and more cruel and heartless. <P>There was no way to prepare for this. He did not complain about our relationship, did not complain about my "basic personality". We had been looking for a new place to live, somewhere where we could really farm again, for a couple of years. A week before he moved out, when I was despairing of ever finding anyplace suitable, he promised that we would find somewhere to move before the summer. <P>I think he reached a point of despair, realizing that my having several years earlier given up his job to follow his dream, and finding that he could not support his family on it, only to have to return to his old career, but much poorer, that he had, as he later said, "Messed up his life so badly that it could never be fixed." I firmly believe that he started the relationship with the OW on impulse,in the midst of a sense of hopelessness, and perhaps misdirected anger, and it was the relationship, and the concommittant guilt, that killed his soul, perhaps as soon as the first time they met.<P>He told me today that he has found a new job - I think it is up near where he and the OW live. He no longer has any connection to this area - he has changed not only job, but friends, doctor, everything. He has thrown away his old life and started a new one. The OW has won. Perhaps she will be happy with the shell of the man that fathered my children.

nellie, im feeling sad for you.<BR>and me. <BR>it is all my fault, too, in his mind, b/c he thinks i had an affair with his best friend, and blames me for his affair with OW.<BR>(((((nellie)))))))<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://www.alladvantage.com<BR>ID#" TARGET=_blank>www.alladvantage.com<BR>ID#</A> atp-113<P>

Nellie. I think you and I are about in the same place. I don't understand any of htis either. I never had problems with H. like you had. I know he was depressed and frustrated with his life because he wasn't where he wanted to be in his career. BUt he never co,mplained to me about anything. If he had I think we wouldn'tbe here I think I would have fixed what was wrong. But anyway. I have begun to wonder why I am trying to hard to get nowhere. He is doing anything, I don;t even know if he is alive, if you know what I mean it is like he has walked off the face of the earth. <P>But now that I vented. You are right he has to blame you because it won't blame him self that would conflict with his fantasy. It is also his guilt, by blaming you he gets out of feeling guilty.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

love WAS blind,<BR>Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I can't imagine going through this with a baby.<P>SDS,<BR>I don't really have any way to contact him directly anymore, unless I want to call him at the OW's. I used to be able to call him at work, and he was usually willing to talk, as long as the subject didn't make him feel guilty, but since he found a new job I don't know his phone number or even where the job is located. There is now no way for the kids to contact him during the day in the event of an emergency.<P>At least I understand now why he couldn't take time off to take care of the kids next week.<P>What I don't understand is why he is so secretive - why he wouldn't say he was getting a new job and that's why he couldn't take time off - when he knew he'd be telling me sooner or later. He does that sort of thing all the time since he left - keeping things secret until the last moment, but they aren't things he intends to keep secret permanently. It is like it gives him a sense of power over me.

Nellie-<P>Well, you knew that I would have to post to this. I believe that my husband fits your h description perfectly.<BR>He is always angry, alway judgements, always treated me like I was the idiot when I would iron his shirt 'the wrong' way or not mayke lasagna the 'way you are suppose to'. <BR>He would out and out hurt my feelings whenever he da@m well wanted to, w/o any regard to how it would make me feel.<BR>He has gone out of his way since he moved out to make my life as miserable as he possibly can.<BR>so, yes I do know how you feel. I also know how you feel about holding on to the slightest idea that he might come back.<BR>My suggestion to you is that you completey shut off contact w/ him. Why do you need to see him or speak to him? He has already filed for divorce. I assume that you have an attorney. If a situation comes up w/ the children or money, let your atty take care of it. That's what they get paid for.<BR>I really think it is time for Plan B. You have Plan A'ed him to death and are getting more and more frustrated.<BR>You need to take care of yourself and try and forget about this alien. You must try and stop dwelling on him. <BR>You have become a dear freind to me. I know that this is incredibly painful, esp. w/ 6 children.<BR>But, you still have your life to live. If h wants a divorce so bad, I say, let him have it. What good is he to you if he doesn't want to be a h or a father?<BR>I'm sorry if this hurts you. I am trying to help you. I just think you need to stop dwelling on him and start dwelling on Nellie.<P>Cheryl

Cheryl,<BR>I do not know what Plan B would get me, except to line some attorney's pockets. People say they feel better when they haven't had contact with their spouse, and worse when they have, but I don't feel that way.<P>My H is sick. I think he has always suffered from episodes of depression, and when he was depressed he was angry, though the anger was not always directed at me. I promised to love him in sickness and in health. We have been together my entire adult life, and I can not simply forget about him.

Nellie,<P>I do know how you feel. I feel the same way about my h. I know that what he is doing right now, stems from a very traumtic childhood. I don't know mucha about his parents (his father has passed away-oddly enough- this was during his 1st marriage and when he began his 1st affair). I know that he has no real relationship w/ anyone in his family-not even his adult children. He avoids his mother and when he has to see her it is very tense. But, these are the only people he can turn to, which makes his problems all the worse. They keep feeding him with these negative behaviors, which only reinforce that fact that "it's all ok".<BR>My h has, IMO, even been happy. I know that he is severly depressed (even tho he would have me believe that life is great since he left me) and that he has no idea what he is doing. My h, like yours, if sick. And, yes, they do need help.<BR>But, Nellie, all the wanting and wishing in the world on your part, cannot make them see that. It is something that they must come to terms with. I know that the more I suggest my h get help, he somehow turns it back on me- that I am the one who needs help.<BR>I want my h to get well. I really do. But there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it. He has to want it. He has to do it.<BR>I am not saying that you 'forget' about you h. I am merely suggesting that you start to take back your life. You cannot, for the rest of your life, dwell on the fact that he has left you and your children. That will get you no where. It will only make you bitter and resentful.<BR>I know that you are a wonderful mother. I know you if you could, you would do whatever you could to get you h to come to his senses and come back home.<BR>But, like TL said, he may not ever come home. You need to start thinking that way.<BR>Why fight something that you may not win? Why not just let him go on w. this divorce. You don't have to agree w/ it. You don't have to say it's what you want. But, frankly, it doesn't matter what you want. If he wants it, it'll happen.<BR>I don't understand how going to Plan B is going to line an atty pocket. I think you should go to Plan B for Nellie. Found out what Nellie wants out of life.<P>Cheryl

What I want out of life?<P>I want:<BR>To raise children who believe that the way to have a good life is to be responsible, to put the needs of those who are dependent on them before their own. I want them to believe that family is the most important thing in the world, and that no matter what their family will be there for them. I want them to believe that if they do the "right thing" that they will be happy. I want my son to learn that being a father is more important than any career. <P>But, you know what - all these things are a myth. What I want out of life is not possible. It would be a disservice to my children to teach them these things. I should be teaching them to trust no one. My H destroyed not only our family, but everything I believed in. I used to be basically optimistic. I used to believe that the majority of people were basically good. I do not believe that anymore.<P>My goal in life is now to trudge along, supporting my kids until they are old enough to be on their own. I used to worry that I might not live long enough to see all my grandchildren - now, not only do most of my kids not intend to marry, but I no longer have any desire to live that long. By the time my youngest finishes college, I will be a year older than my mother was when she died. I will have accomplished nothing, other than raising six kids who at best are cynical and think men, and possibly people in general, are useless and untrustworthy.

Nellie:<P>My heart bleeds when I read so many of your posts. There is such pain, almost all the time. The situation makes no sense.<P>Plan B may not be the thing for you, but I do think you need to pullback from this situation. I am concerned that this is eating you alive, to the point where you're questioning the basic tenets we all live by - morality, trust, love, commitment, honor, and values. Whether or not they exist is really not the point. WE HAVE TO believe they do. Otherwise, we can't really enjoy our lives.<P>You are still young, you have six great kids, and I'm sure there's alot of good in your life. You will be better able to see it and live it if you start emotionally disconnecting from your husband's drama. You didn't cause it, it makes no sense, and there's no way for you to control it. It's not right for you to suffer from it.<P>On the DB board (I know you go there sometimes), there's a woman named Autumn who posts under Hopefulness. I think she's got Last Resort figured out and she's a model on how to make the best out of this horrible situation. It's all about letting go. I think it's the only way many of us will begin to enjoy our lives again. You've given this effort your heart and soul and can be very proud of it.<P>I wish you all the best.

Distressed,<BR>Yes, I am questioning those basic tenets. And I have decided that they do not exist. I left a career I loved, my friends, the home we built, and our small farm to help him follow his dream, and yet he never showed even a minute amount of appreciation. Instead, when it didn't pan out, we ended up with almost nothing, and then he fell into depression, blamed me for our situation, and abandoned us.<P>It would have been bad enough if he had abandoned us while we were living in our home, in a town where I had friends, while I still had a career - while I still had a life. Instead, he waited until he had destroyed everything, until we were living in a house way to small for a family our size, where the neighbors hate us, away from my friends, and my career is gone. I can't even hope for a "good" financial settlement, since he can't give us money he does not have. I will never be able to retire - my retirement and most of his was spent following his dream. I certainly understand why he was feeling hopeless and depressed, but he managed to escape, he managed to find someone who can support him in the lifestyle to which he wishes to become accustomed. <P>Life is not something to be enjoyed. It is something to be endured. Most people are, if not evil, at the very least completely selfish. <P>Maybe you can not enjoy life unless you deny what I have just written, but it is the truth, and I can not deny it.

Nellie--<P>You seriously need some counseling. <P>I mean -- seriously.<P>-------------------------<BR>Laura

Nellie,<BR>My heart is so sore for you. It is time to take care of you. I have read many of your posts and given a little feedback. I never believed that time heals, but to a certain extent it allows one to gain a better perspective of the situation. What helped me was to let go in terms of trying to analse why "i was not good enough" or what needs I did not fulfill. In reality none of the needs he needed filled were that big until he did not want any responsibility to anyone but himself, (no parental responsibility, no caring for wife etc. and these needs I could never have filled. (and from your posts I think this is the same for you and most of us here)<P>Si he is the one who is sick, but he does not see this, does not want to deal with it and in reality you have more than enough to deal with...yourself and your children who DO learn values etc, from you. While they are disillusioned at the moment, (as are my kids) they will learn about choices and immorality from you and eventually put this all in perspective.<P>I agree, you need counseling....just to put this into perspective for yourself and understand he will always blame you for where he is, but you have to let this go. IT MAKES NO SENSE to rational thinkers....Do not ever believe ypou were not good enough. He resents how good you have been and turns it around so that he will not feel even more inadequate.<P>Funnily enough I felt as though a weight was lifted when I realized that I was no longer controlled by H's approval....it did not matter what he thought any more as I know that i am a smarter, better person than he ever gave me credit for. Put downs can be done angrily (your H) or through a veneer of charm (my H0 so you do not know what is really wrong, take stock of all you are...a wonderful human being.<P>Nellie, you have so much to offer, try to think past H and think of yourself and your family....they will heal and you will start very slowly to have fewer intense times within yourself. Start taking pleasure in the small things...your wonderful 6 children. Thier views and relationship with their father is not really your concern. Do not facilitate. This is his business and he will have to live with whatever the consequences are. BUT be there if your children want to talk, but do not iniate this conversation....see if you can get a pastor od a thrid party if not a counsellor to talk with them as they have lots of concerns as well. IUltimately they need to be emotionally whole people and no matter what a wonderful mother you are, they do have issues concerning their father which need to be addressed at some point.<P>Nellie, please take care of yourself....Can you not move back to where your friends and family are?

Nellie, My h sounds very similar to yours. Has never truly been happy, angry at welfare people, etc., angry at people who have more than him, etc, etc,etc. Frustrated with job, money, etc. I guess he blamed me because he didn't have friends, although I never stood in the way of him doing anything he wanted. I guess the main difference is that he's seen he isn't any happier without me than he was with me. He has finally conceded he is the problem,not me, and promised to get help. Now that he lives six hours away, couples therapy isn't really possible right now. Just hope he finds peace within himself.

willbok,<BR>I can not move back to where I used to live because I can no longer afford anything in that area. I have no immediate family, except for my kids and a sister in Europe.<P>My H and I went to counseling - to three different counselors. One thing he and I would probably agree on is that they were all awful. I went to one by myself for awhile, and she was nice enough but totally useless - she could not comprehend why anyone would want their spouse back if they had cheated. Of course, she, like many counselors, was divorced herself. <P>I never thought I was "not good enough". Although it certainly bothers me when he treats me like an idiot, he never convinced me that I was. I know that although I am sure I made mistakes, the problem is largely him. But you are right that it makes no sense to rational thinkers.<P>He and I used to attend a local church, but neither one of us was too happy with the new minister they hired. She would hardly be qualified to provide marriage counseling - having left her husband for another woman.<P>Yes, I am cynical now. Yes, I have completely lost faith in human nature. I still enjoy my children, I enjoy my job, most of the time, but there was nothing more important to me than raising an intact family, and I have always believed firmly in the value of fathers to their children. He has destroyed that. No he is not rational, and without rationality life is meaningless. <P>Janie,<BR>I don't know if my H will ever realize that he is the problem. Certainly the OW is encouraging him to think that it is I. My only hope now is that he will end up alone and eventually feel remorseful - otherwise the children will learn that the way to happiness is to tramble on others. <P>

Nellie, <BR>From the 2 recent posts and your replies, it seems you are at a point where you are hoing to let go of trying to make it right. (Correct me if I am wrong)It is a nightmare, but one you are living and there is no escape from the intensity of all this. Yes you get out and "get on with your life" as you state, but inside it feels like you are dying...it is a sense of going through the motions and seems so meaningless.<P>I found that when I reached this point I had to save myself from this. I could not go on. I was obsessed with the futility of all we had both stood for when my world crumbled. An intact family was always an important value as it was to my H. I am now still angry at the way h has abdicated all aprental responsibility, and this will always be. At the same time, I view him with increaingly more detachment...because he has lost my love, respect and all i treasured in him as a person. (I still am fighting him to get him to pay for the kids support and education....but he gives megabucks to charity to have his name prominently displayed!!!!)<P>While his life is not rational and that is why i use the word 'fantasy" so much. BUT YOURS IS so from your last sentence in reply to me "without rationality life is meaningless"<BR>Your life is rational both for you and the kids therefore it is very meaningful with a sense of purpose etc and will increasingly become more so. While H's life is meaningless, do not concern ypourself about this any longer. There is nothing you can do about this. Unfortunately for him, he has to find the answers himself from now on. <BR>You need to focus away from the why's and understanding....and focus on those things that make sense for you , the rationalities of life and reinforce all these with your children....because while we have both been hurt as have our children, there is no explanation and life is unpredictable...but must have a sense for you....as eventually you will get through this, and not the same. I no longer trust people the same way, I am cynical, but I have a clear sense of right or at least what is right for myself and my children. etc. However over time my anger/confusion etc has faded somewhat I was not as patient as you in my dealings with h...but Nellie..I fear that now perhaps your anger may just be surfacing...and it is for this that you need professional help if you find it consuming you. <P>If I can help you please e-mail me at willbok99@hotmail<P>Nellie, take care of yourself pleae, you are a precious person<P>