We had a big argument tonight. My H says that I haven't done the one thing he has asked me to since his affair. I haven't wanted to make our marriage to work. He says I never loved him before (I say I did/do). He says I have wanted out all along and finally got a chance without going to Hell for it (I say there were a lot of things I never felt I got from him from the very beginning)<P>He has read some of my posts and says it is obvious that I just want out. He says he has given up.<P>I don't understand why I can't get over this. I appreciate his efforts to treat me better. I understand that the lack of effort that both of us put into our marriage led to his affair. I try and want to believe him when he says it is over. I have a lot more trouble believing him when he says he won't do it again.<P>I don't feel that he has ever been able to comprehend the level of pain he has put me through, physically, emotionally, psychologically. When I tell him this he admits that he doesn't even understand what I am talking about. I told him I need him to help me deal with the feelings I have, not just demand that I change them. Ignoring my feelings isn't working, deliberately trying to act happy to be happy doesn't work. I don't feel that he has acknowledged what has happened to me. I don't know if he has acknowledged what has happened to him. I don't know how to explain to him what it is I need. He says I just refuse to see it.<P>His arrogance and selfishness has always been a sore spot for me and has been my primary complaint about our marriage. Now when I need for him to help me, his arrogance is still an issue. He has even come across as being arrogant about his ability to get over it. He didn't need help, he just had to decide to stop and that was enough, (therefore I should be able to decide to get over it and that should be enough).<P>It isn't enough.<P>I wish I could stop hurting, hating, resenting, giving up. He wants me to chose now. I feel like I'm selling my soul. If he can't feel the pain that he causes me, what will make him truly never want to cause me pain again. I understand that he is bound to be feeling his own pain. He says that he is, I feel I could have compassion for that pain if I felt there was any compassion in him toward me. <P>I know he didn't want to do this to our marriage, but the truth is, he was selfish enough that he did anyway. He has owned up to what he did, but then has left my soul to heal on it's own. <P>He has treated me much better to try to heal my heart, but has not understood me to help me heal my soul.<P>I can't even explain it, so of course I can't tell him how to do it, but I would think that he would be doing it automatically if he really loved me.<P>Maybe I'm the one that is being selfish. Am I looking for something that is already there? Am I looking for something that is impossible to get. I don't want to ruin this marriage being unselfish and unreasonable, but I don't want to make promises to him when I still feel so cheated and hurt and alone in my healing..<P>Can anyone out there tell me what I'm looking for. What went wrong with our recovery that this void is still there. Is it his tears for her and lack of tears for me? Is it has ability to just keep going? Is it because I feel he thinks I am weak because I still hurt? Is it disappointment in myself that I am so weak? Is it because I didn't go through the normal stages of mourning early on?<P>

Hey essyboo, <BR>It would take me years to write here. IF you feel comfortable email @ kachord@knology.net<BR>I will give you my opinions.<BR>Hang On!<BR>M<P>------------------<BR>Mater<P>

That brings up another big issue with my H right now. He is concerned about sexual lurkers on this forum and freaked when he found out I posted my email address. That sounds like an interesting thread of its own.<P>My email address is already posted on the email exchange.

Your husband will never know how bad he hurt you, unless you go out and have an affair and show him how it feels. I would like for my husband to understand, too. But he doesn't. And I'm not planning on having an affair, so I know that it's unreasonable to expect him to ever understand exactly how I feel. And I know that I don't know about his pain either. And maybe you trying to tell him how much you hurt only adds to his pain. I'm not saying that you shouldn't tell him how you feel, but expecting him to ever fully understand may be unreasonable. I have a friend whose husband had an affair. They stayed together and about 4 years later, HIS friend's wife had an affair and from talking to his friend and seeing the pain he went through really opened this man's eyes. He started apopogizing all over again for the pain he had caused his wife 4 years ago. Maybe they need to hear it from someone else, I don't know. I do know that once we stopped talking about it as much, things got alot better here. And I believe that they probably understand- more than we realize- what they've done.<P>I know what you mean about the "void" feeling though. I think it takes TIME for it to go away.

I have just thought of another way of expressing myself.<P>My H is very dedicated to keeping himself physically fit. He is a large man and even stronger than you would expect by looking at him. He is also extremely intelligent and never has to apply himself very much even when he went through the Navy Nuclear Power School that is considered one of the hardest programs anywhere in America.<P>He is very cool headed (usually) and takes great pride in being "logical" I greatly admired the cool headed virtue, except sometimes it came across as being uncaring or considering things unimportant. The logical aspect drove me nuts because he felt his decisions were based on logic and thus had to be the best ones.<P>The only weakness he has ever admitted too, was this affair, and that was a "Sexual and Spiritual weakness". <P>I need to see emotions from him, besides anger. That would be an emotional weakness and I don't think he will ever give it to me. I need for him to fall apart with dispair, or something to make me feel that he doesn't consider me weak for doing these things.<P>That still doesn't explain it, but that is a possible aspect of it.

Hi Essyboo,<P> How long have you been in recovery? My H came back end of April and it's been very rough going since then.(almost 7mos.). We moved and that's been hard to deal with too. I'm like you , I just wish he could comprehend the devestation this has been for me....there are times I am plotting my leaving and then there are times I think I will stay for the kids.. some days are better than others. I think if he could empathize with me it would speed things up...however, I have to deal with his depression and prolonged withdrawl....everyone keeps saying TIME and that 's probably true....hang in there.I found just taking a mental break from the whole relationship thing does some good, not thinking about it, and not worrying about it.....(easier said than done, I know!) Lu

It has been 18 months since I found out. He said he had already ended it, but I'm not sure about how long ago, somewhere between it was still going on and 6 months before. I think it was actually ended, but only for a few weeks and they were still in regularly contact.<P>He just acted like he was 100% devoted to the marriage again, no regrets, not problem. I know there are people out there that would have loved that, but I just felt that he was going to treat me good and wait for me to heal myself.

I thought that if my DH came home, he would love me so much more for putting up with this and be trying to make it up to me. Instead, sometimes it feels like I'm doing all the work. But I still believe our marriage can and will be better than ever because of the trouble we've been through.

I just read the post from exwifeblues about forgiving her H. What I don't understand is my first impression of her is that she is a strong wonderful person.<P>Why can't I consider myself that way. Why don't I feel that my H considers me that way. I haven't spent the last 18 months wanting out. I really have tried and wanted our marriage to work. I know my H realizes that even though tonight he accused me of using him for 18 months.<P>Maybe I'm needing him to appreciate that I've stayed, be proud of me as a wife that doesn't quit. To brag on me a little, maybe. That is hard to do when we have this big secret. There isn't anyone to brag to.<P>I sometimes (most of the time) feel that he doesn't realize how easy it would have been to leave and how hard it has been to stay. He has constantly told me that I just stayed because I was afraid to leave, thus making me inferior to him again when it comes to strength.<p>[This message has been edited by Essyboo (edited November 17, 1999).]

Do you women out there feel that a certain amount of vulnerability is sexy.<P>You know, the Keven Costner in "Message in a Bottle" kind of vulnerability, not the "Oh man I can't keep my hands off of that other woman" kind.<P>Why are men so afraid of showing weakness to their wives, yet they will show so much weakness by having an affair or emotion toward their OW.<P>What is it that we do wrong that causes this?<BR>

I think MEN must find vulnerability sexy. How many affairs have you heard of that the OW makes the man feel sorry for her to get his attention. Telling him about how bad she has it and all. Well, I don't even need to go there.......<P>I don't know if i would find vulnerability sexy or not as i have never known my husband to be that way.

The old "Knight in Shining Armor" syndrome. My H had a bad case of that with his OW.<P>Why won't he come to my rescue. All it would take is a little honest feeling, not sexual, not selfpitty. Just a realization of the fact that I trusted him 100%. I wouldn't have left him even though I wasn't happy. I have tried to stay because I want to be strong, not because I am weak. I want what he gave to her. I want his body (you should see it, it is something to behold), I want his heart, and I want his ego. I want all of him and am not getting it. Not to use it, but to love it.

I know exactly what you are talking about, though. My husband used to always tell people how good I was to him. How pretty I was, showing my picture at work and everything. He told his family how he wouldn't trade me for 20 other women. When we separated, his friends from his old job called me and couldn't believe it. They said in all the years they worked with him, he never said one bad word about me. WELL, I need to feel that way again. Maybe I do still mean that much to him, and maybe more. But he's not one to show his emotions much. But I need to feel special again!

I can totally relate to what you are saying.We are almost 2 years into recovery and "something"is missing.Something still just doesnt feel right.I have never been able to quite put my finger on it but I just feel it in my heart.<P>I also can relate when you say they have no idea what they have put us through.Heck,I'm not even aloud to bring it up anymore.The pain is just supposed to "poof"....disappear.Well it doesn't as we all well know.I feel I would have healed from this so much faster if I felt he was more inderstanding of my feelings and the hurt.But he will never understand in a million years.<P>I felt when we first reconciled he would try harder to make things work because of what he has done.I feel I am the one that has done most of the trying.Or have I not gotten past the anger and I just haven't seen it?Who knows.<P>What I do know is that it still hurts but I am not allowed to even talk about it anymore.His favorite sayings are"Why do we have to rehash the past again?"And....."How long are you going to make me pay for this?""Can't we just put the past in the past and move on with our lives?"Ughhhh.Makes me so angry.Who is he to tell me when to stop hurting?Maybe if once in the past 2 years he would have held me in his arms and and cried with me and told me how sorry he was I would feel better.<P>Maybe one day we will get through this.All I know is that at this point one day I feel like walking.The next I look at him and can't imagine my life without him.<P>Essyboo,I feel your frustration and your pain.I will keep you in my prayers.<P>Tammy

Essyboo,<P>Would you feel better if he had a complete emotional break down, quit his job, and stared at the wall for hours on end? Would it make the marriage better if he became a complete basket case? Just how much must he destroy himself before you would feel good?<P>He cannot fill the void in you. He cannot heal you. He can show you love, he can try to be the best H he can, but he can do nothing for you. You must do this yourself. You say that you and H have been in recovery for 16-18 months. What can he do? Lie to you I doubt that he wants to go there again. You cannot heal his pain and guilt either. He must deal with that in his own way.<P>If you won't leave the past and continue to worry about the uncontrolable future, the present just slips by and nothing good can happen or be appreciated. If you want to remain married, you must decide that is what you want and do it. The past and future are out of control. That is why you have religion. God instructs to forgive (taking care of the past) and to trust him (taking care of future), today is left for you to deal with.<P>I know nothing I have said will fill the void. In my opinion the only thing that will do that is happiness. And you control whether you will find happiness in your day to day dealing with your H and family. If you can the void will gradually be filled. Will you forget? No! But you will learn to enjoy what you have.<P>You H, as are many of us men, was trained from almost birth to control our emotions. You may view it as flaw, but it is definitely a virtue for many aspects of life. However, never assume that controlling emotions means that they are not there. They most definitely are there. <P>Finally, is the problem that you have put your H on such a pedestal that you believe that he can solve or cure any problem? And since this problem is not going away it must be his fault for not curing it? He is responsible for the affair, but he is not God ;he cannot fix you. He can only change his own behavior. He is interpreting you unwillingness to let go of the pain as your wanting an excuse to end the marriage. Is he really wrong? Only you can answer and only can change yourself.<P>I hope I havn't offended you, but you and God are the only ones that can move you forward.<P>Good Luck and God Bless You

As I said in another post; you never do get over it.<P>Now, that's what we need to live with. <P>Period.<P>------------------<BR>hurt to the core - and then some!<BR>

I'm not asking him to cure me. That is basically what he is trying to do.<P>I guess I am asking him to excuse my pain and understand it instead of just getting mad at me about it. He treats me as if I am weak and inferior anytime I have trouble with this. He has treated me inferior throughout our marriage. If I get down, he gets mad. His affair is the cause of my pain, it was such a terrible blow to my self esteem (the little I had left) it was a blow to my feeling of security. It was the absolutel proof to me that I never meant anything to him and ultimately he would do what he wanted without regard to me. He has always been very controlling and I have always been very willing to be controlled. Everytime he gets mad at me about my pain, it causes more pain so how is it ever supposed to go away. Why is anger the main emotion he has for me.<P>Now I can't give myself over to him again, because the hurt he caused almost killed me. He doesn't even understand this and I don't feel he takes responsibility for it. It is easier for him to feel that I am just too weak to get over this rather than to admit how deeply he hurt me.<P>He is trying to control my recovery, not aid it, but control it.<P>I understand he will never be able to empathize with me, but belittling me for feeling the way I do isn't fair.<P>He is constantly saying that all I have to do is decide to get over it. Don't you think I would like to. He cannot comprehend that for over 18 months, every breath I have taken, it has been there. I haven't had a break from it for even an instance. I can't get it out of my mind. I can enjoy things occassionally, but the thought and memory is still there. He acts as if he is able to actually forget it ever happened, but I can't. I see his ability to just move on and pretend as just more selfishness and calousness.<P>I go to work and get my job done, but the shadow is still there. I see the pain in my eyes, even when I'm smiling. Nothing feels pure or real anymore. My life is a total lie and everything from him feels fake.<P>He says he sees the pain in me too and he's tired of it. I'm tired of it too, but him telling me to stop isn't going to work.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Essyboo (edited November 18, 1999).]

If I were having to deal with the death of a mutual loved one, do you really feel any man with half a heart would say, okay, just decide to get over it. Just pretend it didn't happen. You have hurt long enough now so stop hurting. Do you feel my husband would have the right to tell me when to stop hurting.<P>Wouldn't he understand that I would continue having good days and bad days for quite a while.<P>The difference would have been that I would have been allowed to mourn the death of a loved one. I wouldn't have had to immediately jump into Plan A. I wouldn't have had to pretend to the rest of the world that everything was all right. I would hope that my H would show his pain too and not just wake up and go on about his life as if nothing happened.<P>He doesn't agree that I am in mourning over our marriage. I'm in mourning over the death of the total and complete faith I had in him. It was all that was left for me in the marriage, because the marriage wasn't very good for either of us and hadn't been for a long time, but I clung to the fact that he may never consider me important, he may never love me and show me affection, he may never think I'm smart enough or a good enough mother, or in good enough physical condition, but he would never break his vows. I truly and blindly believed this. It is now dead and not only am I having to get over it before I am ready, I'm having to try to build a relationship from scratch with this man, not try to get our old marriage back, why would we want that, but start over and build a brand new one.<P>How can I grow closer to this man when he is continuing to show such thoughtlessness toward my emotional needs, not only that, but adding to the pain daily by getting angry at me for still feeling pain.

Essyboo,<P>I don't know why I am going to try this but here goes. You H is disappointed in you because you are failing to see that wallowing in you dispair (just read how the tenor of this thread has changed as you go on) is destroying any chance of getting back together. He sees this "choice" as you really not wanting to have the marriage work, because if it were important to you, you would do want he does and that is deal with the pain and make the necessary changes. In other words keep you eye on the ball, so to speak.<P>Further, he is disappointed in you. Not because he thought you weak or incapable, but because he always viewed you as strong and moral. It is easy to feel sorry for the totally helpless but not those who we feel are fully capable.<P>In another words, the great irony in all of this is that your view of yourself is the opposite of what you H has and expects. He knows you as a moral and capable women. A person fully capable of making decisions about what she wants and will go do what she wants. With that view his only possible interpretation for what is going on is that you are punishing him and when you get done you will divorce him. If this were not true, you would get it together. He does expect you to feel pain and saddness, what he cannot understand is incapacitated.<P>You did not answer my question earlier on this thread. Just what level of break down would you require to make you feel vindicated? How much pain should he have? Enough to turn him into a complete fegatable? He cannot fix you and he knows he did harm you. THat is why the hurt and pain in your eyes bothers him so. But after 18 months, he is wondering if you really want the marriage and until he knows that, he is deciding how much to invest. You are hurting him as well you know or you would not be getting response that you are getting.<P>Think carefully about what I am saying and realize that your H's view of you is far different than your view of you. He would not have married a weak woman or one that was not capable. He knows he was right about that. <P>My advice: Decide do you want to be married. If the answer is yes, start to work on it and let him know that you are serious. The sadness and hurt will come and go but don't let it spill over into the task at hand. He will know when you are down as he sees it in your eyes. Ask him why he married you and what characteristics he say in you. You may be surprised. AS you said the marriage wasn't the best before the affair, are you working on those problems. If not why not. You must and so must he. It sounds as if he is trying but getting very frustrated.<P>Think about this.<P>God Bless You and Your Family

I believe that there is some middle ground between emotional breakdown and empathy for what Essyboo is going through. With my husband the guilt seems sometimes to disable him from empathy. He gets so hung up on what a bad sob he was, he stops there without feeling the hurts I feel or trying to address them.<P>Aren't there some things about their feelings and behavior that they could share that would make us feel better? When my H has talked about things he said or did, the actual facts were often much less aggravated than I had imagined. Also, I do see instances when he really was torn between ow and me. There was so much more he could have and would have done to further their relationship if in fact they had been the soul mates they thought they were. I also see sometimes that what they did share wasn't as great as it felt to them in the unreal circumstances of their contacts.<P>It is helpful to me when my H shares his past perceived and actual feelings about her together with his present conclusions. His present perceptions include that she really was a skilled manipulator and not the sweet suffering innocent that he thought she was while he was involved with her. We see ow frequently, regularly, and, for all practical purposes, unavoidably. I don't think I could handle that if he had't shared their experiences with me so that they no longer have those intimate secrets.<P>It would be even more helpful if he could initiate talking about their relationship and the resulting impact on his marriage and family. If and when we can discuss it the same way we discuss other emotional issues, I'll know we are recovered. I think I am affected as much by his ABILITY & WILLINGNESS to be open about it as any of the content of what he says.<P>As much as I'd like to declare that I will never bring up his EA again, there are times when my emotions build up - for whatever reason (I cannot figure it out) and I need to air out those feelings with him. Out of the blue things pop up in my head that they probably shared and the green eyed monster just takes possession. When he tries to lie low and wait for me to handle it or for it to blow over or when he gets angry and says things like "Don't wallow in self pity," etc., the pain multiplies many times over, and I don't get angry, I get MAD.<BR>After a good long open hearted talk, both of us feel better.<P>In our situation, my H brought this EA about. I understand that if the marriage is strong and the spouse is happy, then affairs don't usually happen. Also, I was and am no perfect spouse. However, that did not give those 2 the right to trample on me, our marriage & family, the values we hold dear, etc, etc for their selfish purposes. I think it is reasonable to expect the errant spouse to actively seek to help in the other spouse's recovery. Personally, I think they should be digging throug the boards and books just like we do trying to find ways to be helpful. I think it's cruel and flippant for them to say things like "I can't rewrite history" or "I love you and will NEVER NEVER do anything like that again so just move on." Their willingness to talk, rehash, and put things in perspective can demystify and tie into reality their former fantasy relationship. That can help us and them. I would think it would help immensely with their own pain to know that they were able to lessen our hurt.<BR>