I've been lurking for about 6 months, and have recently joined your forum. I have been reading almost every post for the last two hours. I am betrayed and betrayer.<P>Infidelity is something that you NEVER EVER EVER "get over". NEVER. Did I say that so it's understood? [/b]NEVER[/b]. If you are betrayed, it doesn't matter if you forgive, promise to forget, get past the daily questioning, or renew your marriage vows. None of it matters, because infidelity KILLS marriages. My SO cheated nearly 15 years ago. Yeah, the intense pain is over, but just the thought of it makes my throat choke, my heart skip a beat. Whatever... it brings it all back to me. Yes, the pain may lessen, but some part of the pain of the infidelity will remain for <B>all eternity</B>. <P>Look around this forum, read what people are saying, look for the success stories (very few), and ask yourself this question: Can <B>my</B> marriage survive what has happened? I think that somewhere, deep inside me, I wanted to get back at my SO for cheating on me. All you who carry such intense pain and anger at your cheating spouse: I understand it. However, for you who say you would <B>NEVER</B> cause that kind of pain to anyone and you are <B>sure</B> beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would never cheat... keep your eyes WIDE OPEN, because you don't know what you'll do in any given situation unless it presents itself. Yeah, your pain is raw right now, and you're too sick and tired to even consider it... but years down the road, when you least expect it, when you're vulnerable, when your H or W has all but forgotten what happened - don't be surprised when you're in the middle of something you never expected.<P>God help us all - we need it.<BR><P>------------------<BR>hurt to the core - and then some!<BR>

I think that infidelity in a marriage definitely changes the marriage - you are right in that you can never "go back", but probably the relationship needed something more anyways - and who would want to go back to the state of the relationship before the affair? The affair can actually be a catalyst to help the couple address some root problems of causing the affair, and can be a way to force the couple to look at some of the issues that leave the relationship so vulnerable to an affair in the first place....<P>No, you can't ever go back, but you can go forward.<P>My husband's alleged affair was a symptom, not a cause of a bad marriage. I want to not only get rid of the symptom, but to address the root of the real problem. I feel then, only then - is there really any hope to this marriage.<P>For me to overcome the betrayal - this site and the support have been fantastic. Now I feel strong enough to tackle some of the root problems. I AM hopeful that this can happen. <P>

trustintruth,<P>I am glad you have hope. I don't have hope. Also, I know too many couples that could NOT "get over" - not by a long shot!<P>Yes, this site is nice. Yes, this site is helpful. But let's get real here, this site may promote the Harley principals that marriages can be saved - but at what cost? Do the betrayer spouses have to live with vindictive hateful attitudes for the rest of their days? Is it the OM or OW fault or is it the SO fault? I see all these people who post abut how much they hate the OM or the OW nut they seem to ignore that there own OP made a choice to cheat on them. And never mind that the betrayed spouse was a terrible W or H. No. We are suppose to believe that the spouse is a terrible person who sefishly had an affair for no good reason. I don't believe it. I think that most of the marriages onhere were bad. In fact,I would go so far to say that most of their marriage would have dies without the affairs. They were bad marriages. Plain and simple. Why bother keeping something that was dying alive now, just because the spouse is scared of losing the one who cheated. <P>I think that this whole thing makes me sick. I am tired of watching one spouse working their asses off for what? For a moment of happiness with soemone who stopped loving you a long time ago? I think I'm worth more than that. And I don't know what I am suppose to do abuot that.<P><P>------------------<BR>hurt to the core - and then some!<BR>

<B>I know too many couples that could NOT "get over" - not by a long shot!</B><BR>Well, then that’s that, isn’t it?<P><B>Do the betrayer spouses have to live with vindictive hateful attitudes for the rest of their days?</B><BR>Where is this promoted in the MB principles? When you love someone, you want to do things for them & NOT hurt them.<P><B>they seem to ignore that there own OP made a choice to cheat on them.</B><BR>Uh, who here has posted that?<P><B>And never mind that the betrayed spouse was a terrible W or H.</B><BR>Terrible? In a very few cases possibly. Inattentive and less than perfect very likely, but not terrible.<P><B>We are suppose to believe that the spouse is a terrible person who sefishly had an affair for no good reason.</B><BR>What is the “good reason” for having an affair?<P><B>I think that most of the marriages on here were bad. In fact,I would go so far to say that most of their marriage would have dies without the affairs. They were bad marriages. Plain and simple</B><BR>Why do you think that? You don’t know any of us from Jack Squat or know anything about our marriages. Just because it’s “not good” doesn’t mean it’s “bad.” So you are saying either marriages are a honeymoon or a hell hole?<P><B>I think that this whole thing makes me sick.</B><BR>And we are happy with it?<P><B>I am tired of watching one spouse working their asses off for what?</B><BR>Why are you tired of us doing what we believe to be right?<P><B>For a moment of happiness with soemone who stopped loving you a long time ago? I think I'm worth more than that.</B><BR>I don’t intend to have a “moment” of happiness with my Wife. I intend to have a lifetime of happiness with her. <B>IF</B> she decides to wake up sometime.<P><B>However, for you who say you would NEVER cause that kind of pain to anyone and you are sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would never cheat... keep your eyes WIDE OPEN, because you don't know what you'll do in any given situation unless it presents itself. Yeah, your pain is raw right now, and you're too sick and tired to even consider it... but years down the road, when you least expect it, when you're vulnerable, when your H or W has all but forgotten what happened - don't be surprised when you're in the middle of something you never expected.</B><BR>I NEVER intend to forget what happened. I do intend to learn from it. I truly believe I will never end up in a situation where I will cheat on my Wife, because if something is wrong in the relationship, it’s gonna get fixed! If you keep aware of what is happening in your relationship & your relationship with others, then you can make sure you’re NOT surprised because you won’t end up in that situation.<P>Relationships take work from both partners. Sometimes only one is willing to give anything to it, sometimes neither are. Then it is guaranteed to fail. It takes two to make it work. If both understand how they can work together to meet each others needs and keep the communications open between them, what can go wrong?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Hurt to the Core,<P>You're not any relation to 'consider this' are you ?<P>Your comments sound extremely alike, and in the same vein, and so very negative compared to most others posted here ?<P>I think we all realise our marriages had faults, and all parties concerned had fault and blame, we don't need to have that fact thrown in our faces. If you feel the need to vent and be angry, please do so, but do it constructively.<P>I, for one, (and I don't think I'm the only one) am a bit too fragile at this moment to hear such bald, tactless comments.<P>Please understand me, I get angry too. But I really try hard not to take it out on the wrong people. If you're angry, get rid of it, vent, scream, yell, but treat us here with a bit of respect.<P>Jo

Way to go Chris. I too believe that most of us will never end up in a situation to cheat on our spouses, because we now have the "tools" to help us work things out constructively and not let things ever get so out of hand again - thanks to Dr. Harleys publishings. Yeah, I understand the revenge thing, but I guess if I am thinking about revenge, then why would I bother trying to "work my [censored] off" to put my marriage and life back together - just to undo all the hard work by stooping so low as to have an affair myself? NOT!!<BR>I'm sure the pain and memories WILL never go away and that sucks! All of this is very fresh for me also, so maybe I'm just a "keener", but I am also much more educated now than before and will be much more aware of the signs of a "budding" affair (on my part or spouses) and will hopefully be able to address the issues promptly and efficiently.

Sorry-WRONG WRONG WRONG. No wonder your hurt to the core, you are so bitter and not willing to look at the good. OK-there doesn't seem to be many success stories here, maybe because they've moved on in their lives? I know the temptation is there for me to not visit here any more because I feel my marriage is on the road to success, but I know that when I first started posting on here there were some successful marriages working out and they gave me hope, something I badly needed at the time. <BR>I am not OVER my H's affair, I have learnt how to deal with reality and that reality is this-he chose to come back to me, he loved and still loves me more than her, and I am the person for him. And no matter how badly it hurts me that he had that affair, I know that I still love him. I still believe in the basic core of us. And I still want to work things out with us no matter how hurt I am. Maybe you shouldn't be lurking, maybe you should actually participate in that healing process that's available to you. <BR>I will pray for you.....God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

Hurt to the Core:<P>I think you're lumping all affairs into the same category. There are different reasons for affairs and different types of affairs. The only common thread among them is that they ALL involve the deception and breaking of marriage vows.<P>I take exception to several of your comments:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it the OM or OW fault or is it the SO fault? I see all these people who post abut how much they hate the OM or the OW nut they seem to ignore that there own OP made a choice to cheat on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think anybody ignores this. We simply choose to focus the anger on the person we're NOT trying to live with for the rest of our lives. It's not hard to hate the OM, because I know I'll never see him again. Can you imagine if I hated my W and tried to live with her the rest of my life? Why would I want to do that?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And never mind that the betrayed spouse was a terrible W or H. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What is your basis for saying this? I wouldn't say I was a bad H. I was a little preoccupied with work and with studying for the bar exam. These were things I was doing <I>for us</I>. That doesn't make me a bad H, it makes me human. I agree with Chris. You can't have a party ALL the time. Marriages go through ups and downs, and NONE of it makes either the W or H a bad spouse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We are suppose to believe that the spouse is a terrible person who sefishly had an affair for no good reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There <B>are no</B> good reasons for an affair, and YES, the betrayer spouse IS being selfish in an affair. I don't think all (or even most) betrayers are terrible people. They are lonely or confused or depressed -- whatever. Doesn't make them terrible, it just makes them susceptible to making terrible decisions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think that most of the marriages on here were bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I beg to differ. I think most of the marriages of people on this board were troubled, but not bad. I know my marriage wasn't bad -- never has been a bad marriage. We just didn't give it the attention it deserved. We didn't WORK at the principles that Dr. Harley espouses, and as a result, we didn't know how to deal with changing feelings and growing threats to the marriage. Does that make a marriage bad? I don't think so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would go so far to say that most of their marriage would have dies without the affairs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know how you can make this argument. I'd also like to know if you are trying to say that the affair would be somehow justified by this reasoning. If so, I think you're WAY off the mark.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why bother keeping something that was dying alive now, just because the spouse is scared of losing the one who cheated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What makes you think we're scared of losing our spouse? Personally, I love my wife very much. By your logic, why should we keep a person losing blood from a massive head wound alive? That person would be dying, but we can save them by closing the wound and giving them a transfusion. Well, I think that's what Dr. Harley is doing with this website. Those of us committed to his principles are closing the wounds in our marriages and trying to pump new life into them. Why give up if you believe it can be saved?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that this whole thing makes me sick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then don't lurk or post here. Your comments aren't helpful, and if this site doesn't help YOU, then don't use it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For a moment of happiness with soemone who stopped loving you a long time ago?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My wife hasn't stopped loving me. In fact, our love is stronger NOW than ever before, because we survived this trauma. If you read carefully, a lot of betrayed spouses have said their spouse never said he/she stopped loving them. They are usually just torn between TWO loves.<P>For what it's worth, perhaps you should take stock of YOUR relationship and decide what's right for YOU. What is right for you may NOT be right for others here. Certainly can appreciate your perspective, but it doesn't apply to everyone.<P>I hope you work out your personal demons.<P>Good luck.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited November 18, 1999).]

Hurt to the Core,<BR> First I like your name, that's exactly the feeling affairs cause for all involved unfortunately. I truly believe that part of what everyone here has said is true in most situations. For me though the key has been that I DO have CONTROL of one thing out of this mess. That is my response to the situation. I strongly feel that attitude, reaction to the situation, and taking a proactive stand are the key to surviving the affair. Antidepressants don't hurt!! <BR> <BR> One thing we can remind ourselves is that we all have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change the past, we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable, whatever that will be. BUT we can determine our own attitude and this one thing we are each in charge of!!! No one can take that from us. <BR> There is so much for each of us to learn. Unfortunately we often have to experience pain to learn from our mistakes. No one can ever say I'll never do anything, but we can set our goals and principles high to strive for in hopes of making choices consistent with them, and if not, face the consequences.<P> Good luck to us all and God bless!<P>--Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Hello HTTC,<P>I am also someone who was betrayed, and then turned into a betrayer years later.<P>The one thing I will agree to whole-heartedly is that you never know what can happen down the road... insofar as the idium (is that even a word?) "Don't judge until you've walked in another man's shoes". I never thought I'd have an affair, and especially not after my H did it to me. It was 12-13 yrs. later for me... so was it revenge? I don't think so, but then again, it did slip through my mind the first time the OM kissed me that now I knew what my H felt. My affair was very short-lived, and I felt such intense guilt and shame for it that I'm still suffering the physical and emotional consequences (hence the Dr.s appt. today and my prescription bottle of Xanax). I have said this all along. <P>Hey, we're all "hurt to the core" betrayed and betrayer alike. Some stay and fight, some choose to run with tails between their legs... but here on <B>THIS</B> forum, we stay and fight... this is marriage <B>builders</B>, after all.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P>

HTTC,<P>Don't have much to add except this:<P>Sure, our marriage had problems. I had suggested counseling years ago, W said no. If she was so unhappy with our marriage she should have done something - offered to go to counseling, asked me to go to counseling, asked me to change my ways, even divorced me. <P>But I <B>STRONGLY,</B> object to the notion that there can be <B>ANY</B> justification for starting a love relationship outside of marriage - while you are still married. The immorality and duplicity of this is beyond all boundaries of acceptability.

i think we should just let HTTC vent her/his anger! That's the least we can do, because we have all been that angry and sometimes we still get that angry. HTTC, you have every right to have anger in your heart. You didn't ask to be treated with such cruelty from the person you love, but yet here you are. Left to deal with the hate and hurt that is ALL CONSUMING. It will never be forgotten it does get easier. If you stay and decide you want to work it out, then do it with 100%, because it will never work with only 50%. If you decide that it won't work then walk out KNOWING that it was the best thing for YOU to do. Goodluck!

Hurt to the Core:<P>I don't think you've spent the time to read and understand Harley's principles. He absolutely DOES NOT say the betrayer is totally to blame and the betrayed is completely innocent. In fact, he says what needs to be addressed are the problems in the marriage, not the affair per se. Unfortunately, you can't really address the issues while an affair is active.<P>The biggest difficulty of Harley's process is the heavy burden it puts on the betrayed to be respectful and loving towards the betrayer, while expecting minimal positive response back (for a while), while the betrayer typically continues hurtful behavior. You seemed to have missed the entire point of Harley's principles in your comments. He definitely does not sit back and direct all blame to the betrayer.<P>I suggest you read the materials thoroughly.

HTTC<BR>When I first read your post I was a little taken aback at just how really angry you were then I thought about it and maybe it is very therapeutic (sp?) to be able to vent in a very anonymous way. Nobody knows you personally and that probably makes it somewhat easier. I hope you found some relief in your post.<P>My H and I are on the road to recovery, it's been 6 mos. since discovery (OW was my best friend). He is very committed on making this work and trust me it isn't always easy. Our marriage was in trouble before the EA and this was as someone said in another post a catalyst to making a strong bond once again.<P>We were both at fault (no excuses, just the facts) because we were not meeting each others needs. I identified with someone earlier who said the affair happened because there was no conflict just happiness. I think alot of men (and maybe women) get so bogged down by the drudgery of everyday life they need someone who represents a no hassle lifestyle for a while. She on the other hand gets a guy who doesn't leave his socks on the floor or the toilet lid up or picks his nose or whatever, it's a constant courting mode, who didn't enjoy that time of life!It all goes back to that love bank gets major deposits and coming home to a bedraggled wife and a kid with stinky pants a big withdrawal.<P>in regard to the "never knowing what a person will do" comment, I have to say that was one thing I kept telling myself. Sure I didn't do it but could I have given the right conditions? I can't answere that, I would hope not but it just as easily could've been me asking for forgiveness instead of him. I know I would hope he would give me another chance so I can at least grant him that opportunity. <P>I don't think our marriage wasn't worth saving, in fact I think we actually breathed life into a almost pulseless existence.<P>As to the matter of never getting over infidelity, unless you get a major case of amnesia that really isn't possible. Memory is a powerful thing I just have to concentrate on making lots of new memories to replace the old yucky ones so the happy are more plentiful.<P>I, like the others have to say I think I have learned alot from this experience and although I wish it never would have had to happen I know we would not have gotten to this point without it and the pain I've felt and lessons I've learned in giving, sharing, loving and caring will no doubt keep me from the need to inflict this ugly action on anyone (my H).<P>I realize once people start getting on the right track with their marriage they abandon this forum to concentrate on the relationship so it seems all are bad but I want to stay and hopefully learn from others mistakes. Don't we all wish to help someone else by sparing them any of the pain we've had to endure?<P>I hope you find the answers you are looking for, if not here then somewhere. Life is hard enough without having to go through it bitter and cynical.<P>Rest well.<BR>LF

Gee, Duck and Weave, I wish I could be as magnanimous as you! I have no doubt it feels better than hurting. Thanks for you post. I'll reread it when I have those "down" times. It was uplifting!

Look people, it does not matter WHAT you say, it is what you DO that really makes it or breaks it.<P>All the words you write are ment to be up beat and hopeful, and I think that you really think the words are true. I think you actually believe that a marriage can survive this. I just hapen not to. I came here by accident one day, and I was impressed with the sincerity I saw here. That is why I wrote. I do not want anyone to feel badly about what I've wrote. But I can't help how I feel.<P>Some of you will make it and some of you won't make it. But whether you do or not depends more on chance than how hard to work to make it work. I bleieve in God. I think he can put it back together. But all the Plan a and Plan b in the world will not work if the betrayer doesn't want to stop. Or god forbid, is so unhappy that they cheated to get the heck out of the marriage. <P>I do not know you poeple, and you do not know me. I plan not to write here again. Let me tell you why. I am not angry like some of you think. I am relistic. Sometimes too relistic. I see the writing on the wall and heres what it says - you screwed up, your SO screwed up, there is a reason. Now go on with life and learn from this so it doesn't happen again. But my eyes will be open. I will not expect my SO to be perfect, and I will not deny that I will be more cautios next time around. Try not to blindly bleive in total trust. <P>I wish everyone a happy marraige that can get better.

hello hurt, I agree that infidelity changes the relationship forever. And I will ever look at my life as I used to. But is that bad? Not really. Believe me, I am not saying that this junk has been good for me, but it is what I was dealt. I make the choice how to deal with it, how to learn from it, and what to do with the smoldering ashes. <BR>Just me......I am the one that chooses whether to work toward rebuilding, to forgive, to quit feeling victimized, to move forward, to look at all the lessons I have been presented. If I choose to wallow, I can easily do that. If I choose to remain angry and bitter, I can do that too! <BR>Do I trust my h not to be unfaithful again. Yes, I do. But there are no guarantees. If he should slip again, then I also trust myself to do what I need to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think you actually believe that a marriage can survive this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not only survive, but be far better than before. My W and I have a sense of intimacy I never even dreamed was possible a couple years ago. Do I expect her(or me for that matter) to ever “forget?” Of course not. If we did, the lessons learned from all this pain would be wasted.<P>Learn from the mistakes, and apply what you have learned.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

hello again hurt, you sound angry? Or resentful? Why do you say you will not post again? Yeah, I got lost (again)!!<BR>I missed the 2nd page when I posted before. This website is acting up out west this am!

Don't think I'm a hypocrite, just consider my dual personality. The last few days I sounded just as bitter and angry as HTTC.<P>I don't think we ever get over an affair, but we can go around it (Just a little poetic play on words, if it wasn't good enought for ya'll to see it)<P>My marriage was bad, the affair was bad, our recovery has been hard, but our marriage is actually better now. (when I'm not destroying myself in self-pity, or we don't slip up and slide back into our old inconsiderate ways).<P>If I could have had the relationship I have now without the affair, it would have been perfect. Unfortunately we didn't. I just wish we had read His Needs Her Needs 15 years ago, but we didn't. <P>I may never have the marriage I could have had with help and no affair, but I don't have the bad marriage I had before.<P>I could possibly have a shot at a perfect marriage with someone else, but at what cost and what risk.<P>The affair has permanently changed both me and my H, in this marriage or a new one, it doesn't matter, I will never be the same person I was, but I can either be worse from the experience or better. So can you.