Hello all,<P>Alice is right, it's Donna's thread and I got angry because of some verbally offensive things said by DG99H. Donna, I apologize to you as well as everyone else for lighting things up on the thread.<P>Nevertheless, I definitely posted with purpose. There's a point to be made and it's one I feel strongly enough about to start a new post. It's not about infidelity. It's not about Marcil. It's not about Donna. It's about civility. And, I get very angry when I see individuals who consistently act in hurtful ways.<P>In this I agree with D99: infidelity is an awful thing. Anyone who considers it or willfully takes advantage of another person is wrong. I am not condoning the idea of a young single lady starting any kind of intimate relationship with a married man. However, that is not the point.<P>What I got so angry about is the bluntness which you use to make your point. Truly, there are other's here who might have *thought* the same thing but they either kept it to themselves or found another way to say it.<P>Why do you have to express yourself in that way? Couldn't you find a way that is more socially acceptable? Do you think you are being helpful by calling people names? <P>That's why I asked the question in the way that I did. Do all of us have the right to call each other any obnoxious name we can think up? Consistently since I've participated here these last several months, you are the only one who chooses to behave in this fashion.<P>This young lady obviously is conflicted. She had the guts to log onto this forum and I've watched her take abuse. I'd finally had enough when twice I saw you call her hurtful names. <P>Fundamentally, she has done *NOTHING* wrong. She is sharing a personal conflict with us. It's in her *mind* D99, in her *mind*. Did she say she had sex with the guy? I didn't see it if she did.<P>Have you ever yourself thought of hurting someone? Does that make you a felon? Have you ever thought of taking something that doesn't belong to you? Does that make you a thief for life? Have you ever thought of having a drink to many? Does that make you an alcoholic for life? <P>Similarly, I ask the same questions about your statements in your last post. Is Marcil EVIL and DOOMED to some WORTHLESS life because she has THOUGHTS? My gosh, have we come to this in our society? Do you even have a wisp of an idea about her? She's probably posted 10 times here. So, you are absolutely convinced she's a SLUT?<P>I have learned enough about you to understand that in many ways you are a very responsible person, a very loving person. So, why, I ask do you behave the way you do here? <P><BR>Marcil appears to be trying to figure this out and find strength before she DOES make a mistake. And, I think we should help her. At least try to. Name-calling is not gonna help the girl. <P><BR>D99...I don't hate you. I don't object to your existence or your right to post anytime you want. What I object to is your insensitivity. So many times I have watched you emphatically call people names. I believe that to be hateful. In our society, there are usually rules against people being allowed to express themselves hatefully towards someone else.<P>I apologize to those I might have upset. Still, the point needs to be made.<P>------------------<BR>"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain, 1898.

Well said DMac!<P>We could probably call some (if not all) of the betrayed here, stupid, insensitive, uncaring morons (and much worse) for the way they treated their spouses. After all most of us were equally to blame for whatever problems existed in the marriage BEFORE the affair. We don't because they are here for help. Donna and Marcil are here for a reason. They are obviously struggling with some thoughts (and behaviors). It's good they are asking about it, because it means they are THINKING about it (the behavior).

What he said!

Real reasonable points DuncMac. Thank you.<P>Chris,<P>Thank you for not calling me all those names. However accurate they might in fact be... I know what I did to my H was a huge ugly mistake. I'm not sure I need anymore convincing of how much I should be ashamed. Taking care of that grandly myself... <P>-rjr <P>------------------<BR>If you're headed in the wrong direction, God allows U-turns.<p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited May 07, 1999).]

To reiterate what I wrote:<P>DuncanMac,<BR>I am the betraying wife of DG99. I am responding because I find your attitude towards my husband most confusing.<P>Why is it you choose to focus on his replies to threads, versus the content of the thread? Why is he not permitted his opinion, yet you are? Why are you so hateful towards him? Your replies are full of anger and unlike my husband's posts, your anger is directed towards him, as opposed to the subject on this forum, infidelity.<P>If my recollection is correct, you too are a betrayer. But I get the feeling from YOUR angry posts that you haven't quite come to grips with your own guilt, self-hatred, and total fall from morality. Thus, the way you deal with it to to attack my husband with your hate.<P>Why don't you go back and read the posts on this thread that were written before my H's. They all carry the same messages, yet only my H was "selected" to be targeted by you. As Maya told Marcil, there is a word for people like her. My husband was more specific and said the word. Why should that offend you? Perhaps if someone had confronted me with the reality of what I would become (use whatever name you'd like) and what I would cause, my own personal crisis could have been avoided. <P>My husband may have anger in him, but it is for the ACT OF INFIDELITY and its resulting devastation. Contrary to your conclusion, it isn't hate for people, even US betrayers. My husband and I are doing very well in our recovery. Most days he is consoling ME through the process, not vice versa.<P>If my husband's honesty is too much for you to handle, perhaps you shouldn't read or respond to his threads. To tell you the truth, if he hadn't written the above, I would have. You see, I have come to TOTAL GRIPS with what I did and the pain it has caused. And because of that, I can sit and read everything on this forum with a greater sense of understanding. The names and descriptive acts don't hurt, because I have accepted, repented, and work daily at being worthy of forgiveness. It is working. Perhaps one day this will happen for you. And when it does, you will be able to share on this forum in a constructive manner. My husband responded to a single woman who wanted to have sex with a married man, and came on this forum for feedback. He spoke honestly about the harm it would cause and in summary told her what she would become if she acted on those impulses. In the dictionary, that "word" is defined as "a sexually immoral woman". Gosh, sounds like a pretty accurate description of what she will become if she does this. It also describes what I WAS for 5 years. I am not bothered by the statement. I am bothered by the fact that I WAS a sexually immoral woman and I must now live with that legacy.<P>My husband has and continues to love me deeply. That is why what I have done has caused him so much pain. But he is beginning to heal, and with that, the anger is subsiding. His posts are not filled with anger, as you desire to see them. They are filled with honesty and a passion for others to not experience what he has and is going through. Something I don't see in your posts. Infidelity is not a pretty subject, and tippy-toeing around it with subtle words won't make it any nicer or acceptable. Open discussion of it is a cold slap of reality in the face.<P>One last thought on this: you stated, should I be allowed to call you everything I believe you to be? What in the world does that mean? My husband didn't get on this forum and ask if we all thought it was OK to sleep with a married man. He responded to the question. Since you don't know my husband, but I do, I'll help you with the description of what he is: a loving father of two, a compassionate and kind-hearted man, a Little-League coach, the care-giver of an Alzheimer-stricken mother-in-law, and finally, the husband to a wife who had an affair for almost 5 years, but who is willing to work at rebuilding the marriage and to keep our family intact. I forgot, a man of total honesty and one who has lived his life with morality.<P>If my tone sounds angry, it is, because instead of focusing on the subject of this thread and that of Marcil's (Should I or shouldn't I have an affair?), you attacked my husband for no logical reason. The question was asked and he responded. He is the VICTIM of infidelity, and he sure as heck doesn't want to see other people experience it.<P>Have a nice day. <P>Disgrace99 - Wife - former infidel<P>P.S. To DonnaD- forget that guy. Stick with the single guys and let some other woman be his victim. <P><BR>New post:<P>I felt it necessary to pull this over, as this was an obvious response to me, but done so completely out of context. You wrote that you have read my husband calling people names on this forum....where are those postings?? I read everything my husband writes, and what you say isn't true...but people who read here, will believe you, because you are "here" all of the time...that's not fair.<P>Perhaps you are confusing the use of "words" to describe what people are doing or have become because of the act of infidelity with personally attaching the name to a specific individual on this forum. My husband speaks English, and "SLUT" is a word belonging in the English language. It is NOT a cussword contrary to your apparent belief.<P>This was not name-calling this was a wake-up call for Marcil. Even K agreed with what he wrote.<P>Go find quotes where my husband has called people "names",,you won't be able to. Descriptions of actual facts, are just that.<P><BR>Disgrace99/wife-former SLUT<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by DG99s (edited May 07, 1999).]

DMac -<P>Very good post. I agree with MUCH of what you said. I, too, object to the name-calling and the insensitivity of some I've seen here. In fact, I'm guilty of being a name-caller. I let my emotions get the best of me and I gave DDC a hard time for her post "He'll always love me. . ."<P>I apologize for that. It was wrong of me to call names.<P>Just one caveat: If someone WANTS to call names, that's their right, as long as they keep it clean. I don't agree with it. I don't condone it, and I'm sorry I posted one of my own.<P>However, we are not a censoring society. We can't tell people not to speak in ways that may offend some (or many) of us. Fact is, DG99's are well within their rights to issue scathing invective upon ALL of us if they want.<P>I would like to point out, though, that doing so only shows us how closed-minded and petty such people can be. I hope any and ALL of us (including the DG99's) will take a long introspective look at ourselves and try to be a little more sensitive to everyone else before we heap such anger on a public forum.<P>Let's all remember that this is a place for healing. We may not agree with what our neighbors say, but they DO have a right to say it.<P>As far as I'm concerned, DMac, I applaud you when you stand up for those who are being attacked. I don't agree with the way the DG99's choose to express themselves either. I will monitor this board myself and continue to let them know I disagree with their methods. I hope you do too. <P>Point made. Thanks for the soap box!!! Next!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>Memo to DG99-W:<P>For the record, since you seem so concerned with accuracy, Marcil claims she hasn't slept with the MM yet. Unless I was napping when they changed the meaning of the word, a SLUT is someone who actually DOES sleep around. Can't call someone a slut if they haven't done the act. Ergo, your H's use of the word to describe Marcil would be incorrect. If he meant it to meant that she WOULD be a slut if she slept with the MM, then he should have been more precise in his post.<P>End of lesson.<P><BR>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited May 07, 1999).]

Lonestar,<P>Perhaps "You are acting like a Slut" would have been better...I'll suggest he be more precise in the future. <P>One point: People bend over backwards here, to try to "Prove" how accepting they are of any and all behaviors. Sometimes I think we should be more direct in pointing facts out to some. Anything, does not go.<P>Disgrace99-wife/former SLUT<P>

rjr,<P>Notice I said "betrayed" such as me. Yes I take full acceptance for the behavior I had towards my Wife (still don't know much of what it was and I have searched my soul for an answer) which led to making her affair possible (notice I don't blame myself for the affair)<P>I was pointing out the fact that the BETRAYED were not saints either, but some people get to slamming people such as Marcil & Donna so...<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited May 07, 1999).]

DG99/W,<P>Please, we're splitting hairs with a cleaver here. We're getting into the esoterics of semantics. We're getting into arguments about connotations of words not denotations. These are arguments that are never winnable for any of us. <P>Yet, I don't believe it is about dictionary definitions. It is about *how* things are said. There is a *lot* of information conveyed not just by words but by inference.<P>Do you have children? Do they sometimes do stupid things? And, if you get mad at them for doing them, do you sometimes say, "you are sooooooo STUPID!!!"?<P>I was taught that kids are very impressionable. If you tell them what you think they are enough times, they will start to act in that image. Call your kids stupid, they think they are stupid.<P>On the other hand, object to your child's *behavior* and you have gone a long way towards not attacking the child. They already feel badly about behaving stupidly. Why let them believe they *are* stupid! Do you see the difference?<P>Calling a young woman a SLUT, as I saw your H do twice is not helpful. It is insulting. Especially to someone who has never actually DONE the single act which YOUR dictionary defines as making one a slut.<P>My dictionary defines "slut" as a woman of loose character. Again, I ask...has Marcil committed an act which damns her to sluttery? Do we even know her well enough? But, from what we know, by definition, if she has not committed the act, she cannot "be" a slut.<P>Object to the behavior if you feel strongly. And make it clear that you do. Don't assault the person. Yes, there are rules against that.<P>I am objecting to your husband's behaviour. I have not called him any names. I have not posted an affront towards him. Do you see the difference?

Good job DMAC,<P>I for one, have chosen not to get involved with some of the threads here for obvious reasons. I read them, if I can't add some insight or help I don't respond. Simple.<P>If you don't feed a fire, it eventually goes out and many of these threads should just not be fed.<P>I will add this... There isn't one person on this thread that is completely innocent of any and all transgressions during our married lives. We may not have all chosen to become involved with another person, but we did contribute to the decay of our marriage. We are all human, we all make mistakes and we all deserve to take or give a second chance. We all live in glass houses, and there are skeletons everywhere. There are no good guys and bad guys here.<P>If someone wants to vent, vent...If you want to offer you opinion, offer it...If you want help someone, help them. Thats what this site is for, its not for attacking others. Its for understanding, forgivness and compassion. If you don't have this to offer, don't post.<P>Thanks for being here Dmac, you and suse have been an inspiration to a lot of us.<P>Chris, Maya, rjr#2--Thank You for helping me through the rough spots. <P>Step by Step, Day by Day<BR>VMV

eeek. a double post. sorry sorry. <p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited May 07, 1999).]

Wow I'm driving myself crazy...that was not a double post...just scared myself....ok what I wanted to say was...<P><BR>Chris,<P>Sorry! I did mis-read that...my apologies! Actually, even if you had said 'betrayer's'- like I read it- I meant to agree with you...<P>It was my intention to write that in a joking 'light' manner in view of the discusion of 'who's what' ... After all I know what I am so...that works for me. <P>I apologize if I sounded defensive in some way, again, wasn't meant that way...<BR>Thank you for clearing it up for me, I understand completely now..<P>On with the discussion... <P>-rjr<P>

rjr,<BR>I took no offense nor meant any

D99 (Supposedly the Wife)<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You wrote that you have read my husband calling people names on this forum....where are those postings?? I read everything my husband writes, and what you say isn't true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You know, I've had a pretty crummy week, not that you should care, of course! Anyway, haven't had much reason to smile. But I gotta say, after your comment above, I am ROTFL! <P>Thanks, D99. I needed a laugh.

Chris:<P>You can go ahead and call me all those things(even though I know you were talking about the betrayed). I lied to and treated my W horribly during my affair. But due to this terrible mistake I made, I learned many valuable lessons I am attempting to weave into our lives. Even my counselor says I have made incredible strides in the last year! My W now needs to work on many of the fears she still has, fears brought about by what *I* did. Her greatest fear seems to be anything different, even though I know different will be better. After all, what we had before enabled me to do something neither of us thought was possible. I am not known for my patience, but am willing to help in any way I can, even if that means Not dealing with things as I think she must. My job is not to tell Her how to make our marriage better than it ever was, but to show her by example. And I try, every day.<P>Doug, I'm with ya on the ROTFLOL. Haven't been reading much lately(no need), but that one was pretty good. Sorry you're having such a lousy week... commiseration is only an email away, pal...<BR>

Infidelity is cruel, thoughtless, mean behavior. I've admitted to my H that what I did was all of the above. However, I am *highly* sensitive to hypocrisy. I consider name-calling to also be cruel, thoughtless, mean behavior. Some people feel justified displaying any sort of destructive behavior in the face of their pain (as long as they are faithful). That makes them NO DIFFERENT than an unremorseful betrayer, irresponsible and unwilling to face the damage their behavior causes. Does faithfulness and fidelity make anyone a "good person"? No, it is ONE and ONLY ONE component of a loving, thoughtful marriage. <P>Only the weak are cruel, it takes strength to be kind. One can choose to be cruel in the face of weakness, or can choose to be kind in the face of weakness. Jesus is worshipped, and martyrs are sainted because they specifically chose kindness in the face of the cruelty dealt them. It has nothing to do with "accepting" mean behavior, it is just a choice not to be mean in return.

Why would OW's be on a MARRIAGE BUILDERS forum actually asking those of us who've been through this horror whether or not they should do it? I'm sorry, but that makes ZERO sense. As a matter of fact, I'm wondering why either Marcil or Donna "happened" onto this site in the first place. They can't possibly be looking for our "blessings," can they? Or maybe trying to rouse our feathers? Have a little fun with us? Guess we'll never know for sure.<P>Marcil and Donna, if you really do want to share your experiences and compare notes, I'd try www.affairs-help.com There is a discussion forum there that is specifically for single people involved in affairs with married people at the present time.<P>It's unlikely you are going to get anything here that you haven't gotten already.

So you mean there really IS a forum for stupid chicks who don't know the difference between being used and being loved???

Welllllll....(*cringes* )...for what it's worth... if I can throw in my "waxing philosophical"...<P>I'd like to start by saying that, as a general thing, I believe there are very few truly bad people in life. Yet many of us do, or have done, bad things. We do them for a multitude of reasons: because we are hurting, naive, misled, angry, depressed, ignorant, immature, desperate...the list goes on endlessly. When we do these things, we learn from them. Or we should. Being ignorant, or young, or naive, doesn't make one evil. Not in my book anyway. It just makes one very subject to misjudgement sometimes.<P>Marcil has touched some very raw nerves here (understandably), and parts of her post were certainly thoughtless. However, she is 20 years old. How many of us can say we had all of life figured out at 20? Not me! How many of us can say we never did anything foolish or self-centered at that age? Not me! If she was a 30-year-old saying some of those things, I'd feel a little differently.<P>She also started a thread today asking if any of us had suffered abuse earlier in our lives. This, to me, would hint at the possibility of big trouble in her life, although she didn't make this clear. <P>This young woman could be our sister, our daughter. She came here seeking advice, seeking mentoring from people who have a little more "life" under their belts. Would any of us want our 20-year-old daughters called a "slut" (in caps, yet)? Does blowing her off the board with cruel epithets (hurled in the holy name of "Honesty") do her - OR her MM's family - any good? <P>Even when I was most heartsick about my mistakes in my marriage, I never thought of myself as a "SLUT". I don't now think of myself as a "former SLUT". What an ugly word. I think of myself as a person who has made some whopping-big mistakes in my life; and who has learned, matured, and grown a great deal as a result of them. In so doing, I have learned to forgive myself (not an easy task, but a valuable and neccessary one, imo). I have learned to forgive DMac. I have learned an awful lot about human frailties and vulnerability....and an awful lot about human strength and redemption. Those things happen when you dig deep to create an atmosphere of love and forgiveness - and respect.<P>Nobody behaves like an idiot because they *want* to (well, almost nobody ). They do it because they don't know any better at the time. This forum should be a safe haven where people on all sides of this thorny issue of infidelity can meet and learn from each other. Mentor each other with dignity and respect. True, most of us are either betrayed spouses or repentent betrayers. So what makes a 20-year-old, with a possible history of abuse, who is being preyed on by a 40-year-old married man who ought to know better, any "sluttier" than any of the betraying spouses here? Beats me. I'm not defending her behavior, I'm just trying to see the person behind it. At least she's here, asking questions & struggling to understand her situation. That takes some guts.<P>My hotheaded DuncanMac seems to have really opened a can of worms here... but I have to support the notion that repeatedly spewing venom and vitriolic epithets in the name of "honesty" is sad and counter-productive. Freedom of speech may give us the *right* to choose the absolutely most inflammatory word possible, and SAY it in CAPITALS to ADD to the HORROR of it all... but it doesn't make it right.

To all on this post:<P>This is so absurd....this young girl who wants to have sex with a married man who lives across the street from her. I referred to her as a SLUT..because she wants to ruin this family's life..and I am attacked..NOT HER>> you people are truly amazing. I've obviously become your personal scapegoat in dealing with your circumstances, both betrayer, and betrayed, mainly betrayer...this is so incredible...<P>I told my wife today (yes, she writes her own thoughts, I have the BALLS to claim my own) that Maya seemed so calm..but guess what? As soon as my name came up on the screen, she went ballistic...does that mean anything to you?? Once again, you have discarded the real issue at hand, only to focus on me, an oddity I have yet to figure out...I think some of you, recoil at my HONESTY, you can't handle it..I'm for real, you will never know if Marcil is...<P>Here we are on an ifidelity board, but you have more compassion for a 20 year old who wants to screw the man across the street, and ruin a family's life, than you do for a man who after 22 years of marriage discovers his wife has had an affair for the last 5 years...you should all take pause at this..and you claim to be here to help people..as the saying goes, with friends like you, who needs enemies????<P>Maya,Duncanmac,whodat,doug, all of you get aroused,,especially you Maya, in a lot of ways, if I write here,,,you shouldn't I am just a solitary man,trying to save my family, and I don't always go along with the "line" here, "whatever you say or do is okay except DG99". Then the rules change...think about it.<BR>. <P>Whatever any one else does is Okay..but if my purpose here, is to help you live with what you have done, and to take out your anger on me, then I can live with that,I know none of you, I only know what you write..I'm sure some of you are fighting your own demons,and to strike out at another person, is your first line of defense..I can handle it..I am with you all. <P>I wish you all the best, especially Maya, who more so than others, draws my own personal interest, and her mine. Have peace in your lives, accept what you have done, and don't focus on others, who have nothing to do with what you have done, or what you wish for your life.<P>As an aside don't you veterans here find it interesting that "K" sided with me on this issue 100%....go attack him, now, with great haste..this says something about your objectivity, or mostly, your lack there of...reflect please...<P>Take Care,<P>Disgrace99(H)