About two weeks ago, my W and I had a really rough weekend. Everything I did seemed to bother her and vice versa. Nothing seemed to go right, and we were both running a short fuse. The following Monday, I received an e-mail from her at my office. Some of the content... (Sorry, it's long)<P>"Again let me say that I'm sorry for the bad weekend. I've been depressed since all this has come about. Now the depression has moved into anger mode. I'm very angry when I think of the fact that you have been disconnected from me for so long. I know that years ago, when it began, I tired to reach out and bring you back. But my efforts weren't enough and then I stopped trying as hard because you didn't respond. Now you are trying to bring me back and you are faced with hostility and anger. It is very difficult for me right now. I see you put forth the effort to be happier at home and you get resentment from me. I do resent the fact that you made it seem like all this time you culd have been like you have these last few weeks.... I then feel sad that if you hadn't waited so long to try, maybe I would feel happier about this change, too. I just keep asking 'why couldn't he have done this sooner?'. Then I am mad again.<P>I don't think I've changed that much. I am pretty positive and I look to that in people I know and meet. You seem to feel that I am only positive about other people. That is so untrue. I am proud of you, of your accomplishments, of being a good dad. I just wish you hadn't stop feeling for me. <P>The love in your eyes dies many years ago. Now you are disappointed in me alot of the time. I don't see you feeling positive toward me. You seem to try so hard to 'get me' and connect. I feel sad you have to try. So I feel uncomfortable when we are togetherwith others...because they see we don't connect.... It's all work. We don't laugh together anymore.<P>I do want to try to find a place where we can be comfortable together again. I will try to let my anger go and shake that feeling that I disappoint you. I know if I can do this, then we can start to rebuild...but I don't have a timeframe. It will take as long as it does. ...I can't give you a definate timeframe. I hope that you will give me the time to work through this, then maybe we will be able to find the love left for us."<P><BR>I look at my W's e-mail at least once a day. <P>I had responded by e-mail, trying to explain that I had hopes and dreams that we could repair our relationship. That I would be supportive, positive, and patient. But I also pointed out that I was walking on egg shells, afraid to push to hard to threaten her timeframe. I wanted to hold her, to kiss her, touch her,... but was afraid that it would come off to strong. You get the point.<P>It's getting increasingly difficult to remain positive and patient. I know I preach these ideas as I've learned them from you. But, all I can think about is the fact that I haven't seen any noticable changes in her behavior or demenor. Is this normal? If I even kiss her, I fear that it will come off too strong. Yet, I want her to know that I do love her.<P>An interesting sidenote: W has not admitted to an affair, although I've found the proof. She also hasn't denied any of it. Don't know if EA got to physical stage, but I suspect it was getting close.<P>I'm signing off now. I'll check in in the morning.<P>(Still trying) to keep my chin up!<BR>--keystone

Hi Keystone,<P>I hope I can do for you what you did for me the other day.<P>I am not aware of your full situation, having only been posting for barely 2 weeks.<BR>BUT, at least you and your W are talking. In my book, any kind of communication is better than none. (within limits of course)<P>What came through to me reading your W's email is that she is looking BACKWARDS, at what you WERE like. Maybe now is the time to show and prove to her how you have changed.<P>I had what I thought was a brilliant idea - maybe take her on a holiday, doesn't have to be a long, exotic or expensive one. But get away to a place where neither of you have been before. I feel you need to create some NEW memories and experiences for her, and for her with you, and for yourself.<P>If you both like camping, take her to a 5star hotel. If you both like 5star hotels, take her camping. <P>If my H ever decides to try with me, this is what I would like us to do. I feel it would help assist with the 'movies' (as someone else called them) that play through our heads at the most inopportune times. Instead of the thoughts of them with someone else (the movies), we now have new memories and movies of good new times together. Maybe just overnight would be a start - but something NEW. You know what she likes, hop to it !!!<P>I hope I havent been presumptious, given that I do not know you at all. It was just 'something' that popped into my head as I was reading and I have no idea where it came from. As I said, if we get the chance, I will be trying to create some new memories for us. Hope I've helped a little. Have a lovely day, and keep that chin up.<P>Jo

Ketstone,<P>sounds like we married similsr women. right now i'm learning to detact with love to let her find herself. i thinmk her EA is about dead. so now ihave to wait for he to find out if she wants to rebuild. i have to remember i have a five year track record of thge old Bill, and a three week track record of the new Bill. she is very scared. i deon't know what more i can say, this is only my experience and what i'm going through.<P>Hang In,<BR>

keystone, <P>I see a lot of wonderful things in this email from your wife. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again let me say that I'm sorry for the bad weekend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just the fact that she is being curteous enough to say "I'm sorry" is a great sign. It has taken me a very long time to get back to that point with my wife. This is good.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that years ago, when it began, I tired to reach out and bring you back. But my efforts weren't enough and then I stopped trying as hard because you didn't respond.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did your wife steal this line from my wife. Gosh, this hits home for me. Can you say 'wake up call'?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just keep asking 'why couldn't he have done this sooner?'. Then I am mad again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>At one time, my wife told me I was too late. I think it is clear that what ever you are doing, you are making a big impression on her. If it's due to your Plan A, then keep it up. You must Plan A for life now. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am proud of you, of your accomplishments, of being a good dad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hope you read this quote over and over again because this quote would carry me through for a long time. Your wife loves you Keystone - that is clear to me. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The love in your eyes dies many years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This was me too. I took my wife for granted - quite possibly the worst sin a husband can do to his wife. It's going to take a long time to get this back, but you should be filled with hope. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do want to try to find a place where we can be comfortable together again. I will try to let my anger go and shake that feeling that I disappoint you. I know if I can do this, then we can start to rebuild...but I don't have a timeframe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is very good news. She does want to connect with you again. She does want your marriage to work. She does want to be happy with you. I can give you a rough timeframe - how about a year? Are you willing to keep changing and keep trying to make your marriage work? I think you are.<P>keystone, I have a few suggestions for you.<P>First, become a great conversationalist. there isn't a woman in the world who doesn't like to talk and share their experiences, their dreams, their frustrations, everything. Conversation is a key to a woman's heart. Learn this skill. Learn all you can about your wife by talking to her. Make a point to go our for coffee or something. It's very hard at first. I felt like I was interviewing my wife for a couple of months for a job she didn't. But, I kept trying. Now, my wife and I can talk for hours at anytime. I just took her to one of the fancy resorts in town for a drink and we sat and talked for three hours. It was great. Conversation is a <B>need</B> for women. If you don't develop this skill, they <B>will</B> get this need met somewhere else. It's a great way to become friends again.<P>Second, learn how to give lots and lots of non-sexual touch. If you were anything like me, touching was only occuring during sex and that wasn't happening very often. Now, I touch my wife daily with back rubs or foot rubs or hair rubs. Start very slow. Offer a hair or foot rub while you are watching TV or something. If she comes home and she has had a tough day, offer a foot rub. Maybe a back rub to help her get to sleep. After doing this for the last 9 months, it's now second nature for me. Now, I know when she would like a hair rub or foot rub. IO just sit down on the couch and tell her to come on over and put her head on my lap and I give her a nice hair rub and we talk for while. Again, this is an art and it will help you connect. It also will help lead to other things .<P>Finally, be sure to give plenty of blessings and compliments every day. Thank her when necessary. Tell her what you like or admire about her every now and then. tell her she looks pretty or you like how she fixed her hair that day or whatever. Again, don't shower her with compliments all of a sudden because it will come across as you are trying too hard. But, really start to notice her and what she does.<P>I know you are going to make it keystone. You and your wife are both going to make it.<P>God Bless,<P>SHA <p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited November 19, 1999).]

Keystone<P>Could it be that on that particular weekend it was that time of the month for your w.? That can sometimes do it for me - or maybe 1 or 2 days before (the dreaded PMS monster) - just a guess.<BR>But about the depression thing, is she taking any meds that you know of? Is she drinking or doing any recreational drugs (pot etc.)? Because they could be depressing her further and clouding her judgments. Or she could be in the withdrawal that Dr. Harley talks about because apparantly the betrayers will get very depressed and moody and angry from what I've read - and she probably doesn't know that these are normal feelings for her. Maybe print off that page from the net and "leave it around" for her to "accidentally" find and read.<P>I understand her reluctance to believe you have changed and to go forward - after you've been "kicked in the face" a few times, you stop going back for more and just put up the wall of resistance for self protection. You know what - you should see if there are any "retrouvaille" weekends happening in your city anytime soon. Their website is <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org." TARGET=_blank>www.retrouvaille.org.</A> We just came back from one and there are also 6 follow up Sat. sessions to help you keep up the momentum - it is a wonderful weekend away from it all and really helps you get into each others heads. There will be lots of other people there in probably the same situation as you guys (don't panic there are no mandatory share sessions - your life is private) but anyways, the program is geared toward couples whos marriages are in very serious trouble. Affairs I would say were probably #1 problem happening on our weekend judging from body languages of other people and the way the kleenex boxes were emptying whenever the hosting couple speakers would talk about their personal experiences dealing with affairs. I can't say enough good things about it - You get to go away alone together - no kids - to a nice hotel - all your meals are cooked - there is nothing to worry about - no distractions or outside influences - there's just the two of you and so much support around you - it could be just what you guys need to kickstart the marriage again. Learning how to dialog is the focus of the weekend and let me tell you - you do alot of it!! But it is amazing how when you are in a "safe" environment such as retrouvaille how much the two of you will open up to each other - Go for it!!<BR>And you'll "kill two birds with one stone" - this could also create some new, positive & happy memories for the two of you.<P>Wish you well.

Keystone:<P>If you look up <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html" TARGET=_blank>Harley's three states of a relationship</A>, you see listed Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal. <P>You've got your wife in Conflict. Read this section to learn how to get her back to intimacy. The bottom line is that you must avoid lovebusters, and try to meet her emotional needs.<P>Simple concepts. Put them into practice, showing your wife "new behaviors". The more consistant you are, the sooner you may coax her back to intimacy.

keystone,<P>This e-mail is really POSITIVE!!! I agree with everything SHA said. He points out all the positives and his suggestions about teh conversation and non-sexual attention/affection are right on in my book.<P>Also, as K pointed out, your W has moved from emotional withdrawal back into conflict. This is WONDERFUL! That means she is only one stage away from intimacy. You ARE on the road to marital restoration!<P>I know you are keyed up and impatient. But, you guys ARE communicating, and this hard work NEEDS t be done to get to a happier place. Give yourself a break, if you feel you are giving so much and getting so little in return. Think of worse times when she wouldn't even respond at all, and now even though this is painful and feels unnatural, she IS responding.<P>Keep your faith and energy high. You have a ways to go on your journey, but really, you have come a long way already...<P><BR>Roll Me Away

First, thanks to all who responded. I'm in one of those really big valleys these days, hoping to see a mountain soon.<P>Bonnet -- Yes, we are talking, but the only meaningful talk (ie about our marriage) seems to be done via e-mail. I've got to get us back in joint counseling, since I feer NOT talking may give her an easier escape with the OM.<P>Regarding you trip: Great idea. But, both are kids are very busy athletically, including traveling to games on weekends. When I have suggested that we try to get away, alone, in the past, it just hasn't been met with much enthusiasm. And, we've tried to make our kids priority #1. Particularly with their sensitivities to their parents problems. Truth be told, I also don't think she wants to go away with me for an overnight or weekend. It's been an element that's sadly been missing for YEARS.<P>WillamJ -- Toughest thing is to get your spouse to understand what at EA is -- an affair. They still have problems seeing it as any more than a "friendship". Good luck to you.<P>SHA -- Thanks for the words of encouragement. I read that e-mail at least once a day, still wondering if she does still have any care for me. I'm still puzzled if she realizes that she had an affair. I think some of her phrases indicate an acknowledgment, but I'm not certain.<P>I'm already working on the conversationalist angle. Even just being home and accessable is an improvement. Still, my W says, "You know you don't need to stay awake with me" -- thinking that I just want to get some sleep after a long day's work. I'm trying to convinced her that, even though I may be beat, I still want to be there, available, accessable to communicate. She doesn't have to feel obligated. Hope this isn't pushing too hard?<P>Regarding touch -- I'd love to. But, right now, I'm not wanting to come of too strong. We lost the intimacy of our relationship a while ago. Too much, too soon would be seen as pushing. Yet, I need to show her I'm still interested. If I only knew where to draw the line.<P>tmdm -- I know it was not that time of the month. But, everything is still so sensitive in the relationship that even a minor issue gets blown out of porportion. For both of us. As for the weeekend, I don't think we're ready for this yet. This would definately been seen as pushing too hard, too soon.<P>K -- trying real hard to avoid LB's, even if I come off lately as a little weak. It's a constant battle of frustrations since I want answers, acknowledgments -- anything that confirms that I've made some headway. Still waiting, and trying to acccept that those things may never come. I still want to be supportive of her.<P>RMA -- I don't know that she's cut her ties to the OM. I think withdrawl is still there, or maybe hasn't even set in yet. I'm worried that alot of the "good behavior" lately is due to the approaching holidays. I hope my judgement is wrong.<P>I'll do some reading as you and SHA suggest. Maybe I'll be an insight over the weekend since we'll be busy as a family and be together alot.<P>Thanks again everyone for the words of encouragement. I've been think this is not making progress. You overwhelmingly think it is. You guys haven't steered me wrong yet!<P>-- keystone<BR>

Keystone,<P>Man your and my wife must be twins. Sounds like we are going through the samething. My wife has admitted the EA but now is saying that she had all these issues before the EA. In fact she now downplays the EA. That email could have been written word for word by my wife. I know she feels the exact sameway. In fact anyone that has gone through what you and I are can say the exact samething.<P>Check on my latest stuff. My wife now says that for the same reasons she fell in love with me she no longer likes. So everything that you are going through I am going through. Check out <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com." TARGET=_blank>www.weiner-davis.com.</A> Go to the infidelity message board and look up truth or lies there. There is a lady named Helen that is giving me great advice. She had an EA and walks me through what women might think while she is going through it

Zip --<P>Sorry to hear about the bump in the road. You guys seemed to be doing so well after yoy talked to OM's wife.<P>Could you double check that website address you refered me to. For some reason, it's not linking up.<P>I've got to run -- work calls -- but I'll also check your thread. can't say I've run into this "hate what I used to love about you" idea. Boy, this stuff really sucks!<P>tmdm -- I forgot to address something in your post. My W is drinking. It was an issue that was also lumped together with the affair issue. I think she has been making some strides to control it. I wouldn't say she's an alcoholic, but I do beleive a problem exists. She's also hiding empty bottles, as if to minimize the appearance of the actual consumption. This "problem" has existed about the same span of time that I suspected an affair. In fact, I thought it might be her "escape" from our relationship gone awry.<P>-- keystone

keystone,<BR>I can relate to where you are at with not wanting to comoe on to strong. I have done the to strong thing for a long time which is part of the reason I am where I am with my wife. The other part is that I was placed on a pedestal because I graduated from the USAF Academy. This made getting close to her even more difficult.<P>As SHA said about beinga good coversationalist, it is key. I would add that you need to do the conversing thing with MUCH feling. I was told that I don't feel. I would beg to differ with her because that is why I came across to strong in a lot of ways. I am working on not doing so now because she keeps retreating when I want her to advance. I have been giving her much space and only talking when she wants to talk. I am doing my best to be animated in such a way that I show that I care about what she is saying. It is difficult when everything is no nonsense in my head. Even my laid back relaxed attitude is one of no nonsense as well as my joking mode.<P>I am passionate as you appear to be from your post. Hang in there. It will get better. I pray that it will be over for you soon.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Keystone,<P>Go to the URL <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com." TARGET=_blank>www.weiner-davis.com.</A> You have type in the site.

Thanks, Zip --<P>Found the website. I may do some lurking there and see what informationn you got.<P>I'm not familiar with DB's principals, so I may need a day or two to check it all out.<P>--keystone

Keystone: I don't want to throw any negativity on this post, nut I will relate my experience.<P>When reading the email about being 'too late' and your changes make her uncomfortable or angry. These are things my W told me when she was still seeing OM, I suspect it was to make her feel better for me trying so hard and her not realyy reponding. Or it could have been a way for her to try tp keep distance between us, I don't know.<P>Again, no negativity intended, just a thought. Hopefully this doesn't pertain or relate to you. Good luck<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul --<P>I do think she's at least bitter about having the extent of the "friendship" either discovered or threatened. And I do know she misses the OM -- at least "as a friend". Wheather contact is continuing or not hasn't been confirmed. <P>Another interesting thought that just came to me. In the first counseling session, my W actually said that she had "grown to accept the reality of our marraige". It was if to say that that was just a fact of life. And, that she wasn't all that unhappy anymore. She had just grown to accept it. Perhaps the confrontation blew the lid off her "acceptance" of our marriage. Perhaps it got her back to the real reality. (Make any sense?)<P>--keystone<P>P.S. You post is not negative -- it's just addressing reality. <P>-- keystone <p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited November 19, 1999).]

Hey Keystone,<P>My wife still tells me that we are married and that the friendship with OM was different. What ever the hell that means. Last night at our couseling session the counseler told my wife that she needed to stop talking to OM which is good. <P>

Zip --<P>I've got to get us back into counseling. It's been too long. We've both managed to come up with scheduling conflicts -- work, kids, school stuff, etc. Truth is, if we both want to go, we'll find the way to do it. I'm getting the "itch" to go at it alone if she cannot meet my schedule. Hope that doesn't come off wrong.<P>I'm sure my W and yours must be cut from the same cloth. She had reiterated about how she's always had male friends. Nothing wrong -- just friends. I guess if I could get her back into counseling -- maybe I could persuade the counselor to suggest a total break of contact. Problem is, we haven't even gotten that far yet. <P>I'm really starting to think about other counselors. I don't think Harley is the answer here. We need a real live warm body. Also one with a more flexible schedule.<P>Zip -- what happened to the Mr. Mom's W? Is she still an ally? It's an alliance that I cannot use since the OP is married to my wife's "best friend".