Sadmv,<P>I will be blunt. I don't know if your H is having an affair. It turns out that it is not relavent. You will be getting divorced soon if you continue what you are doing and thinking. You will finally convince yourself (with no evidence by the way) that he is having an affair and make his life hell thereby making you life hell. THis will mean divorce. Or he is having an affair and your obsessiveness will convince him that he is making the correct choice and he will divorce you.<P>Either way you will end up without an H and your children without a father at home. Is this blunt enough for you? Several people around here have gently suggested that you try Plan A, which by the way both spouses really should be doing in their marriages any way. If your H is having an affair it may convince him so stop it and return to loving you. If your H is not having an affair it will deepen his attraction to you and his love of you.<P>I will also point there was another lady on this board last week that was convinced her H was having an affair. After much hand wringing and realizing that much of his behavior had to do with losing his father within the last month she has come to realized that no affair took place. Not all instincts of problems lead to the same problem. If your instincts say there is a problem there might well be one but it does not mean there is an affair. Yet!! <P>It does seem that your H finds this woman interesting at least. The question you have to answer is: are you going to spend you time trying to PROVE something or trying to IMPROVE your marriage?<P>Hope this makes some sense to you.<P>Good Luck and God Bless You and Your Family

Sadmv:<P>If you can't do this alone, get counseling. That's what I did. In April, after losing 2 jobs (one of them the one where he worked with his "friend") and one consulting gig, he took a job with one of HER clients. I'd thought that not working with her would mean the "friendship" would die out. This meant it wouldn't.<P>So I sought counseling. My mantra there is "Be nice to me. I cannot change what he does, I can only change what I do." Counseling has helped me put myself back together. <P>I know where you're coming from; believe me, I do. And I also agree with Just Learning: keep on this path and end up divorced, and that's NOT where you want to go. As my therapist says, when those tapes of what the sick part of you thinks is going on kick in, just hit the "stop" button and take them out. You can do this.<P>Your H may be sitting on the fence. Maybe something happened (and you know something did) that scared him, but he doesn't know what to do about his attraction to this person. I'm somewhat skeptical of the success rate of the Harley methods when dealing with a full-blown emotional/sexual affair, but I suspect that your H is about where mine was, maybe a little further along. In cases like ours, I do think that doing a singlehanded effort to work on the marriage will help.<P>My H used to go to parties and get-togethers with those co-workers (including her) alone. Now he takes me.<P>It's not easy. Believe me, it's not. But I think that for you it'll work. If you need help stopping your cognitive runaway train, get help.

Your H may be sitting on the fence. Maybe something happened (and you know something did) that<BR> scared him, but he doesn't know what to do about his attraction to this person. I'm somewhat<BR> skeptical of the success rate of the Harley methods when dealing with a full-blown emotional/sexual<BR> affair, but I suspect that your H is about where mine was, maybe a little further along. In cases like<BR> o<P>What do you mean by that?

Just another quick question/observation...<P>During one of our many discussions where I was practically begging for the truth...at one point he said, "Let me ask you something, if there was a truth to be told, I'm curious to know how knowing would benefit you?"<P>Do you take that as an admission without actually admitting it?

Hi there Sadmv,<P>I became so obsessed at finding the TRUTH about my H, when I really knew the truth the whole time. My usually non-lying husband would have denied AFFAIR all the way to the gas chamber if I hadn't finally (JUNIOR private eye that I became) discovered the proof that I needed. Finding out that my H was having an affair was horrendous, but not knowing was tons worse. When trying to discover the true story I stayed up one night, all night, waiting for my husband to talk truth in his sleep. I searched for letters, receipt, anything that might shed light, When I accused him of going off to see someone else, he would cup my chin, stare deep into my eyes and say "trust me, please" HA!!!!<P>I was a couple months pregnant at the time and was experiencing some severe morning sickness and following him was not an option. <P>He never slept with OW, but an affair he did have. He wanted to be with someone more than me and our 3 year old child. He wanted to kiss and touch her more than me. He did this all and lied to me about every bit of it. I knew, H knew I knew, and still stuck with it until I had the absolute proof. Go with your gut feeling, find the proof that you need and then you know where to stand on what to do with the rest of your life. Marriage Builders is the perfect spot to begin. Dr. Harley's theories are excellent and it might surprise you that my marriage has never been more on the right track to success. Good luck to you.<P>

wafflestoo:<P>I have a couple of questions for you... What is this proof you say you finally have that convinced you? How do you know he didn't sleep with her?<P>I'm asking you this because I personally do not feel I can believe ANYTHING my husband says and I'm curious as to how you can claim to know that they didn't sleep together.<P>Also, only after being abruptly introduced to all this infidelity stuff have I started noticing that many feel that you can have an affair without having intercourse and I obviously see that you share this belief. Can you explain it to me? (Don't mean to sound stupid)

Sadmv,<P>I could not believe anything my husband was saying either. I actually called the OW for verification on many of the things that H was confessing. I asked her about the sex and her story matched my H's. She claimed that she would have eventually got him into bed because he was wearing down. He, too, did not want to cross the line, but he came closer and closer to crossing it everytime that he saw her. She had no reason to lie because she actually wanted my H to leave me and the family to be with her. She told me many things that I did not want to hear (things that my husband convieniently did not tell me and then later admitted to) and I felt that she was telling me the truth. She enjoyed the role of importance that I put her in and spoke long on the subject of their affair. The amount of heavy petting was substantial and I do believe that I caught them before the final step was taken. <P>I was frantic in searching for the proof. I searched high and low for evidence. My husband was going out one night a week to play in a band that he belonged to, but there were other members there that could prove that he was there. He was, however, coming in late from band practice and this led me to suspect, along with so many other things, that something was up. Like I said, I was dealing with a pretty heavy blow of early pregnancy sickness so I couldn't really ever physically follow him or spy on him leaving work. I also had my 3 year old son to watch.<P>I finally found proof while we were away in Orlando on vacation at Disney World. We had a pre-paid phone card to call our families and I made sure that I kept track of how much time we used on this card. When we returned home, I demanded the card and checked the time left on it. Of course, it had been used more than my records indicated. I called the phonecard's toll free service number and told a service rep. that the card was defective because of the time lost on the card. The service rep. went through all the phone calls that were made, when they were made and who they were made to. This is where I discovered the OW's phone number. So I called her, call number 1 that it. I asked her if she knew my husband and asked her if she knew that I was three months pregnant. She told me who she was and that indeed she knew my husband. She did not know that I was three months pregnant. My husband had no choice but to fess up at this time. I am so thankful for finally finding out. It was driving me NUTS. Of course, I would have rather found out nothing was up. <P>So at least I know what I am dealing with and where to go with it. My husband is working very hard at making this marriage work. He has read Dr. Harley's books, gone to marriage counseling, gone to individual counseling and he has started to meet some of my emotional needs. <P>I was scared to death of the prospect of starting over with two small children. I have always enjoyed being married and did not want to Not be married. I didn't want to have a baby alone. I will, however, NEVER put up with this type of bull Sh*t again. It has been the hardest time in my entire life!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>During one of our many discussions where I was practically begging for the truth...at one point he said, "Let me ask you something, if there was a truth to be told, I'm curious to know how knowing would benefit you?"<P>Do you take that as an admission without actually admitting it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope. I do not. FHL, where are you? Please step in here!<P>One thing treacherous about posting here is that everyone who responds is filtering their responses through their own experiences, which may or may not resemble yours.<P>My experiences resemble yours in some ways, but not others. Some other people here found out that there WAS a full-blown affair.<P>Basically, you have two choices: 1) Next time he goes away, hire a PI to follow him. If the PI finds something, then what do you do? Having your spouse followed is about as big a lovebuster as you can get. It will NOT bring him back to your loving arms. 2) Try to work on your marriage, make it a place he WANTS to be. This will take time. Try to focus on what you loved about him in the first place. Those things get lost in the daily grind.<P>My H goes to sleep at 8:30 every night, and he's often gone by the time I get up in the morning at 5:30 AM. I no longer go out to see my friends at night, unless it's after he goes to sleep. No matter what else needs to be done, those two hours in the evening are for HIM and ME. TOGETHER. Every weekend, I try to plan something we can do together. If he's working, I try to go with him when possible. This accomplishes two things -- it puts my fears at rest, and gives him some company in the office. We go out to breakfast, then to his office.<P>Sadmv, I fear that you are latching onto the WORST stories here, because they confirm your suspicions. What is this doing for you? Let's suppose your H is really attracted to this woman, and has some sort of flirtation going, but he's not having sex or other physical contact with her. There is no way you will be able to convince him this is an affair, because he thinks that an affair is intercourse. Therefore, what he's doing is not an affair and you are crazy. <P>So what gets accomplished? Nothing. But you are his wife. You have children and history with him. Wouldn't it be easier for him to have that wonderfulness with you?<P>I have a friend whose H is involved in a pretty serious emotional affair. She thinks she's wonderful to him, but then says that he can't figure out anything, his family is defective, all these things indicating that he's somehow less than capable. His "friend" goes to him for emotional support. Guess what? SHE thinks he IS capable...and that makes him feel wonderful.<P>In my case, my H is attracted to strong, nurturing women. When he wasn't getting the support and nurturing he needs from me, he got it from Dragon Lady. Now that he's getting it from me, he doesn't need it from her.<P>Very simple. You can CHOOSE to take action to help your situation, reserving judgment until you know what's going on, or you can continue to play the victim, snooping and finding nothing, until your H decides, he's got the name, he might as well play the game.<P>I don't think that's what you want, is it?<BR>

OK, I'm back.<P>Dazed is right. She has been there, is there and she knows.<P>You can read my story in my profile. I did catch my H as he was walking away from an affair. He denied the first few pieces of evidence, but could not deny the opposing team sweatshirt and love note from brazen hussy in his pocket. Actually all he didn't leave for me to find was a billboard on the highway.<P>I took me months to believe it was non sexual (yet, thankfully) non emotional and a huge mistake.<P>Although my H clearly crossed the line, he didn't score and he was trying to cross back when I caught him. <P>There was some real damage done, but also an opportunity for healing we wouldn't have had if there was nothing to heal. If I would have persisted, we would not have the growth and recovery we have had.<P>I guess my definition of an affair is any inappropriate relationship that significantly diminishes the commitment or emotional investment you have with your spouse. Sex is an ugly outcome, but is not the sole determining factor.<P>If both of you want your marriage, then your H needs to be committed to fidelity and growth and you need to be committed to doing whatever it takes to move forward rather than spin your wheels in mistrust. <P>Look at your contribution to this mess and really evaluate if it is worth it. If you want a healthy marriage, do what it takes on your end to make it healthy. If H is also committed, your actions will encourage him to follow suit.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I appreciate your responses and understand fully what you are advising me to do. It's just so frustrating to realize and understand what you should do and at the same time have no control over this part of you that does the complete opposite. <P>For some reason on my way home last night I started wondering since OW knew I had her number and had used it to confirm that she was at the "business trip", if she had resorted to changing it. According to my "twisted" thought process, I figured that if she was indeed the innocent bystander that he portrays her to be, the individual that has done nothing wrong, the individual that just figures that I am some jealous lunatic b/c as my husband says, she knows that they've done nothing wrong, she would not fear or worry about me calling her house, why would she? If she is without fault and has basically fallen into this triangle without really intending to, I would think that she would have nothing to worry about. But...guess what? When I called I got the good old operator telling me the # I had just dialed had been changed to an unpublished #. Well, you can just imagine by mind going 100 miles an hour at that time. To me, it just confirmed that she is as guilty as he is and an active participant in this triangle and therefore is trying to protect herself from me and what I may do. (contact her husband).<P>Of course, this was enough ammunition for an entire night's worth of fighting. It just seems so clear to me sometimes...when things fall into place the way they do. He claims that of course she's going to change her # b/c of what happened when they were out of town. That she realizes that I am capable of anything so she is going to avoid any problems that I may cause. That he would too if he were in her place. I feel I wouldn't if I were in her place. I would simply come home and tell my husband..."You would not believe what is going on....etc.etc." Instead she decides to change her #. She just seems so guilty to me.<P>ANYWAY.... I totally pissed him off, he says that he is numb, that he can't take it anymore, that he's trying to get on with our lives and I continue to take us back, that I am obsessed with her when I should be worried about our marriage and what it needs to be better, that he's at a point where he doesn't care anymore, that he realizes that I will never be able to let this go, that ultimately I am ruining our marriage by holding on. <P>I understand what he's telling me is true, but I can't control my mind. How can I ignore that the situation doesn't look like what he claims that it is? I guess I am not strong enough.<P>I apologized this morning and pledged to him that I would not look back and keep rehashing the past events, that I would try to be the wife he wants me to be, more responsible, more affectionate, etc. and he promised me that he would do everything he had to in order to be the husband I want him to be and that he wants to be. He also said that he regrets what has happened, but is glad our marriage is going in another direction.<P>Let's see if I CAN BEHAVE!!!

Sometimes you can not control your immediate emotions. You can do what is necessary to move toward changing them. And you can immediately control how you react to them. You can choose the words that come out of your mouth and each and every action you take. Empower yourself. You are in control if you want to be.<P>If I was alleged OW, I would most certainly have my phone # changed, especially if I was innocent. I wouldn't want some woman disrupting my family. If you can not believe your H, certainly you would not believe anything OW says either.<P>Listen to what H is telling you. Your home and your relationship is not a safe haven for him. He is trying to hang on anyway. For a person having an affair, who many times is looking for an "excuse" to walk, this would be atypical behavior. <P>If you want your marriage, you must set this aside, keep your eyes open, but make your marriage safe. It may not be fair, it will not be easy, but if you continue on your present path, you will certainly destroy your marriage.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi: TRUST YOUR INTUITION! TRUST YOUR INTUITION! TRUST YOUR INTUITION!<P>My husband had an affair with a subordinate. I could go into a lot of name calling right now, but I'm past that point. He lost his job over it, screwed up our teenage kids. Our daughter left home to live with her loser boyfriend. Our youngest daughter's grades went way down. Our son had bouts of anger.I was fired from a job for being unhappy. I could hardly concentrate. It was pure hell.<BR>What did I do? Everything wrong, love busting, to everything right, love building. I prayed a lot. I talked to friends a lot. I went to therapy, a lot. I read this board a lot. I never posted much, still don't, but found much solace here. I stuck it out as long as possible. I left for a very short time. I came back. I went to my parent's house and realized I need to go back to my house. My mother told me to stop acting like a function and become a person again. That clicked for me. I started nurturing myself. In the meantime...everything corrected itself. Husband has a new job that challenges him. I work temp jobs, which I love doing. We moved. We love our new space. Husband realized that he needed to change his behavior, and did so. Somewhere along the line he knew he had too much to lose over an endorphine rush with an OW. We are back on track and very happy. If my intuiton is trying to get my attention, I listen and I question. If my husband ever exhibits that kind of behavior again, it's over. No questions asked. TRUST YOUR INTUITION! Decide what you are willing to put up with, decide how much time you want to give. Set your boundaries. Make sure they are clear. This is the ride of your life! You will find out what you are made of. Good luck, my prayers are with you.<P>------------------<BR>"Life is What Happens While You Are Busy Making Other Plans"<BR>

Listen to what FHL has been saying. Listen to what your H has been saying. You will not have to worry about being jealous pretty soon your marriage will be over.<P>FHL made a great point. If you read this board, most people in affairs use the kind of treatment you are giving your H as a excuse to leave and be with OP. Your H has not done that, but he will leave soon.<P>Please listen to her. Make your home a place that he wants to be and your relation with him will improve. Also have you considered counseling for you rather uncontrollable feelings. Even if they are correct your reaction is apparently not within your control.<P>Again, listen and quite making up things. If this little evidence is all it takes for you, then I would have no trouble convincing you that the Earth is not a sphere but a convex object. Proof?? Look at your shoes which way do they bend? If you were on a sphere they would bend downward. The bend upward, therefore the Earth is not a sphere. How is that for bad logic? <P>You know the correct thing to do no matter the situation. Please give it a try.

I am not going to play "Why don't you...yes but" with you any longer.<P>You need to look at what kind of gratification you're getting out of this digging...out of continuing to foster conflict in your marriage.<P>Is it possible that YOU want out of your marriage and you're projecting your emotions onto your H? Think about it. I know that syndrome, because I've been there -- relationships I didn't want but didn't have the guts to end, so I got jealous and that did it for me.<P>Don't tell me you can't control your emotions. You can. You have to learn how to train your mind, and recognize when it's the crazies talking. A good cognitive therapist can help.<P>Right now you are creating a self-fulfilling prophesy. Clearly the situation with H and "friend" is inappropriate, but your behavior will NOT solve the problem, it will only make it worse. What are you gaining by this behavior? Is he loving you more? No. Do you feel more secure? No. So what is this doing for you? Nothing. <P>So try something new. Be good to him today. Then be good to him tomorrow. Suggest something fun for you both to do. Initiate sex. Buy a new nightgown. Make a great dinner. Take him OUT to dinner. Plan a hike. Get theatre tickets. Go rollerblading. Book a "getaway" weekend at a local hotel. Hilton does a "bounce back" weekend special at participating hotels for $99/night.<P>It sure sounds like your H is trying to save your marriage, in his own clueless, lunkheaded way. He may not even think he's doing anything inappropriate, and in his mind, he's innocent and you're just acting nuts. (See, FHL? I do listen. )<P>What do you have to lose by giving him the benefit of the doubt for a while? A week? A month? A year? Why not just put your fears aside and work on YOU and how YOU behave in the marriage? The potential returns are great and the risks are really negligible.<P>If you can't do it alone, then seek counseling -- that's what I did. But don't sit here and tell me "I can't do anything about it because I can't control my emotions."<P>Yes you can. You have to make an effort of will, but you can.<P>Been there, done that.<P>