I've brought this up before ... nagging suspicions about the sex involved in my husband's affair. This afternoon I had the dubious privilege of talking about the slug with a person who has a friend in common with her. This person, I'll call her "L", is very close friends with a person who lived with the slug as a roommate for a while (I'll refer to that person as "J").<P>We were talking about my Halloween costume - I dressed as a dominitrix for a Halloween costume wedding that my husband escorted me to. "L" confused "dominance and submission" with S&M (I am told they are distinctly different from each other). I explained my understanding of the difference between the two - ummm - "styles." Then she told me that "J" had told her that the slug was really into S&M ...<P>This is something I've wondered about, as my husband has made some cryptic remarks about his leaving me being "for the best" and how there was so much that I could never understand... I've suspected something of this sort since the beginning based on some of his behaviors prior to my discovery of the affair.<P>I don't know what to think, now. Another friend tells me that I can believe anything that "L" tells me. She also thinks that, even though "J" has a reputation as a "storyteller" that this story could very well be true. Which I found interesting, since she originally dismissed my suspicions as being ridiculous.<P>And, I don't quite know what to do with this information ... Thoughts? (I mean, besides the obvious reaction that many will have of disgust with that type of sexual lifestyle?)<P>Sheesh ... this gets more and more interesting as it unfolds...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Sorry to be a pest ... just bringing this back to the top...

So, Terri, are you thinking that your H's attraction to the slug is because he finds S&M exciting--that he prefers that kind of sexual activity?<BR>

Lots of thoughts have been running through my mind tonight, actually. I think that wondering about whether this is his preference is one of them. Also wondering if this is a "phase" or a lifestyle for him. If it is a lifestyle then I might have to rethink whether or not I can meet his sexual needs at all anymore. In other words - if he did come back to me, would he simply cheat on me again because of this "need"?<P>When we talked last year about his leaving and what I would be willing to do if he stayed (well, *I* talked about it), he said it wouldn't matter even if we moved away - that it would only happen again somewhere else (him cheating on me). I always wondered why he said that. Maybe THIS is why???<P>I feel a little like I've been kicked in the gut ... this is not a pleasant feeling.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

One more thing ... "L" also said she was around when the slug was threatening him - if he didn't leave me they would be "through" - and "L" believed it was entirely possible she threatened his life. "L" told me that she thinks I should be really careful of pissing the slug off ... that she might come after me.<P>I said I'm not afraid of her - if she touches me, I'll land her butt in jail and I will see to it that she spends a lot of time there. If I have to, I'm capable of physically defending myself as well.<P>What can he possibly see in a person that has a reputation like that? "Fun"? Ugh...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

terri--<P>H and I used to attend local aol get-togethers, for Monday night football, horse racing, dancing, holiday parties, etc. Big mix of people involved and of course, even though the activities were non-sexual, relationships would spring up--including infidelity. A little Melrose Place saga.<P>One married guy, who came regularly to the get-togethers sometimes w/W, sometimes not, got more and more into the infidelity scene. He hooked up with one of the group's obvious players. She's an older woman who, as countless rumor has it, lives a S&M lifestyle. (She dressed up as a dominatrix at one of our Halloween parties--your costume descrip. reminded me of this story.) Before long, this guy left his wife and moved in with Ms. S&M. Guy and wife are now divorced, though he says they remain friends (no children). He amazed us in saying how liberated he now feels in his ability to express himself to the extreme sexually. Huh? Each to his own, I guess, but he didn't stay long with Ms. S&M; she replaced him soon thereafter. I wonder how he's feeling now.<P>(We stopped going to those parties--too much stress even on a GOOD relationship when everyone else views all attendees as "ripe for the taking" JUST because you're there. So weird.)<P>My point is muddled--because I don't really understand that man's choices--but I do understand your concern about being able to connect sexually with your H now. However, you don't know if that information is true. Before you get even more upset, talk to your H about it. Tell him what you've been told.<P>Your humor still seems to be intact...I loved your phrasing..."dubious privilege." Best wishes.

Terri:<P>It's possible that he's referring to S&M or some other lifestyle choice, but I think it's much more likely that this comment reflects depressed person thinking. It reflects the "hopelessness" of someone that cannot take control or responsibility for his own life, lets events dictate his behavior, doesn't trust himself to make the right choices (I'll just cheat again), won't invest any effort to grow or learn, and has no direction. Just my opinion. I'm living it too.

Thank you Lucks and Distressed.<BR>After a good night sleep, as usual things don't look so gloomy in the morning.<P>I believe that he is a good man. I love him - if his sexual preferences have changed that drastically, it is possible that we cannot ever resolve that issue - but there has always been so much MORE to our relationship than that. I don't want to give up based on something somebody heard about somebody else.<P>In the recent past I have wondered how I could let him know that I am willing to be more adventurous sexually. Our past communication had not been good on that topic - rather, it was non-existent (with my own depression, I don't know if I would have been able to handle anything different before this anyway). My only communication to him about sex during the time previous to his leaving me was very negative when it came to anything even remotely "different." I'd like to correct the impression that I'm sure I left with him that I thought he was a pervert.<P>I truly did a lot of damage to my relationship - not excusing his affair, just being honest.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Hi Terri.<P>Your story sounds a lot like mine, in not excusing his affair, but wondering how much your depression played a role in your relationship. That is very similar to what happened to us. I got depressed and shut down, and he ran away.<P>I have a suggestion for how to let him know you're in the mood for a little adventure.<P>You may want to get a book called "52 Invitations to GRRRReat Sex". You can find it on-line at barnes & noble <A HREF="http://www.bn.com" TARGET=_blank>www.bn.com</A> <BR>Half of the invitations are for his eyes only, half are for your eyes only, and you "invite" each other to fun little dates. <P>My H and I are getting a huge kick out of it. I've invited him to one date, and now I'm eagerly awaiting our next date that he's invited me to.<P>Just a suggestion. Talk to him. Keep talking. Acknowledge that it may feel uncomfortable to talk about, then keep talking anyway.<P>Good luck!

terri,<P>I agree with Distressed - this may not really be about the sex thing - but about his fear that he is "unable" to be faithful to you. This is an issue your H will have to address if the 2 of you are going to get back together.<P>The other issues appears to be sex. Whether or not he is into S&M, the important thing is that the 2 of you are able to talk about and agree upon the sexual nature of your relationship. You allude to the fact that you 2 haven't really discussed your sexual preferences. If you are to have a chance4 at rebuilding, sounds like one of the issues will be for you to to openly communicate and agree about sex.<P>Roll Me Away

Terri, I agree with Distressed-about the comment he made- saying he would "just do it again"- to quote- " It reflects a depressed persons thinking-the "hopelessness" of someone that cannot take control or responsibility for his own life,lets events (and I will add "and people") dictate his behavior, doesn't trust himself to make the right choices- won't invest any effort to grow or learn and has no direction" If that doesn't sum up my H right now I don't know what does. I can understand your questioning his behavior- whether it's a phase or a lifestyle he's looking for- My H has had numerous infedelities during our relationship - he continues to as I write this- we are going to counseling, and he has been diagnosed as being severly depressed- If sex is what your H is after (it doesn't matter what "style")have you thought about whether or not he has a sexual addiction? I looked into it to see if I could find more understanding in my H's actions. I am still in the middle of deciding what the He** I should do in my relationship but, I believe getting as much information as possible in order to make a decision as to how to handle this is always good. I wish you the best in your situation.<BR>Moonbeam<P>------------------<BR>MAY WE ALL FIND PEACE, LOVE AND COMPASSION IN OUR WORLD(:

I agree with both of you. Only one minor problem ... the slug is still VERY much in the picture - she lives with him. And the other thing is that we don't get to talk much anymore at all because he "can't get away" in the evenings. Now, I don't know if it is because he doesn't want to be with me one on one at all under any circumstances or if it is because he doesn't want to deal with how unpleasant she would be if he were to do so. Another reason probably is because she doesn't drive - he takes her to work and picks her up from work.<P>Well, at the moment the point is moot. I left a message on his answering machine that I had to speak with him about family matters (it isn't any of her business what I want to talk with him about) and I will wait for him to call me at least until Tuesday. If he hasn't called by then, I will call him at work and see if he got my message. And I'll have to wing it from there.<P>Thank you all so very much for the reminders that 1) I really don't KNOW anything and 2) this is truly something that we need to discuss at some point in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.<P>And thank you for the support!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Let me try this again from a different approach.<P>As I see it, there's only one real problem. That problem is that your husband isn't interested in finding solutions.<P>Ultimately, I think nearly all issues are resolvable for couples that are looking for solutions. But when one party is not looking for solutions, all problems are unsolvable, trivial or otherwise.<P>I've cycled through similar concerns with my husband that may or may not be true. I've seen paper evidence of a religious cult in his car. My FIL told me that husband has said that my parents treat him coldly (they obviously do now, but it's news to me if it was during the marriage). I've heard all sorts of nonsense from my inlaws (almost nothing directly from my husband or communicated during the marriage) about personality traits I have and other things. It's quite possible that alot of this is real to some degree. But it doesn't matter. Fixing it just leads to the next reason given (I've experienced this. Now my husband says I have fixed everything but "it will just happen again in the long run".). The fact of the matter is, he's just not interested in solving problems. He is interested in using real problems and fabricated problems to justify his position of not trying. In fact, my eliminating some of the problems probably annoys him, since it's harder to use them as excuses to his parents (and probably to himself). I'm sure he can come up with new ones.<BR>

Distressed,<P>You make someinteresting points. What caught my eye the most is that your H is using the excuse of the real and unreal problems to JUSTIFY not working on solving the problems!<P>I would be willing to bet that those of us who have a S unwilling to work on the marriage also have a S with this attitude.<P>My question is this: Do you think it is fear of failure that keeps them from even trying??<P>Roll Me Away

Distressed, I'm not sure why you prefaced your post with "Let me try this again from a different approach."<P>Unless you think I don't get it. I do get it. When people are depressed, they don't WANT to find solutions, they aren't ABLE to find them even if they wanted to. That doesn't mean we should give up on them - unless that is what we need to do for ourselves.<P>Here is what surrounded the beginning of my husband's affair (based on the time frame given to me by the slug): He was attending school, enthused and hoping to continue on in higher education and become an aerospace engineer. He had trouble with math in high school, but found it easier to learn it in college. But then, he came up against a "brick wall" again. He couldn't master pre-calculus... I, pretty much embroiled in my own depression, was unsupportive if not openly disdainful. I was not capable of solutions at that point, myself. He tried again, and dropped the class once more because he wasn't "getting" it.<P>Then he turned 30. I gave him a party, we went on with life ... but his life had changed. For whatever reason, he had always believed he would not live to be 30. Now, he was 30 and all his dreams were turned to ashes. Melodramatic? Maybe. But that was what happened. I was a miserable, depressed, unpleasant person. He tried to get me to do active things with him - and I always had a reason why I couldn't (my back, my feet, my ... but I can't ...).<P>Along comes the slug. No responsibilities - able to keep late hours because her job (whichever one she had at the time) was late afternoon and evening. She was fun. I was not. He got involved. He felt guilty living two lives - and I sensed something was wrong. But thought it was his single, irresponsible friends.<P>I knew something was wrong. I nagged, I became more miserable. I gave up on many things myself - getting out of bed to go to work became the most I could do... I was overwhelmed as housework piled up. He withdrew more from me and I from him.<P>And here we are. I am recognising the harm I've done to my marriage. He is still in his depression ... given up on all of his dreams. I, on the other hand, have taken the step I need to take to make myself better. I am able and ready to overcome what we've been through. But he's not there ... yet, I hope.<P>Granted, there is a point at which one must give up and move on, acknowledging that we cannot "fix" the other person and the other person doesn't want to "fix" himself. But I KNOW that there is a spark of something wonderful in this man, despite the hurt he's done to me and our marriage. I KNOW that, if he could - and would - pick himself up out of the darkness, WE could work.<P>No, I can't make him do it - I can't fix him. I can, and will, however, fix myself. That IS what I'm working on. In the meantime, however, I'm not going to abandon my belief in my marriage. It is not "harming" me to have faith and believe that there is a chance - so why should I give that up before I'm ready and willing to do so?<P>Thank you for posting to me. Your post made me think about this more deeply and come to this conclusion - and to announce it here. There are those who believe that if I don't do what they tell me to do I am not worth their time - but we all have to do what it is we know is right for us and if it isn't harmful to our lives, others should simply respect that it IS the right thing for us... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Terri:<P>I think I was misunderstood, probably because I didn't state myself clearly and went off in a different direction. I didn't mean by my opening line that you didn't get it. I was just looking at it from a different angle. (In Harley parlance, it was meant as an "I" statement, not a "you" statement).<P>I don't think you should give up and would never encourage you to do that. I haven't even done that. I just think the best focus for working the problem is to address what I perceive to be the most significant issue - the depression (to whatever degree it's possible). I don't think you'll get great mileage from working the other problems. That doesn't mean you shouldn't address them - you should. Especially if they're the kinds of things that make you a better person. But you have to keep your expectations in check, that's all.<P>I wish you much success.

I'm kind of confused by your response to Distressed. I didn't see anything in that post that would elicit any negative response.<P>I would give my own opinion, but I guess that's not such a good idea. I just wanted to say that I felt that Distressed didn't at all say anything negative regarding your marriage or situation. And I'm not even related

Distressed,<BR>Sorry ... I didn't mean it to come off sounding so hostile and defensive ... but I WAS puzzled by the first line. I appreciate that you posted an explanation, and I do agree with you that the depression is the most immediate issue. The rest of the post wasn't at all aimed at you - that was *me* going off in a different direction. There ARE those who have been pressuring me to "move on" and some of them are on this forum. Others on the forum have been pressing the "Plan B" issue - and my gut tells me that a strict Plan B won't work with my husband. I don't think it would work with any depressed person, because they are already having trouble feeling personally valid or valuable. <P>So, I think I misunderstood and then proceeded to make myself misunderstood ... I went off on a tangent that is valid to the forum, just not particularly connected to the original topic. <P>Isaac ... I hope this addresses your concerns. I really wasn't intending my post to sound as if I felt Distressed was being negative in any way. Truly, I welcome opinions, I'm just (as we all are under the right conditions) a little touchy tonight...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Terri:<P>Based on my experience, I agree with you about Plan B. You should only use it if you need it FOR YOU, and you don't.<P>I did a solid Plan B from Jan. 1 until May 23rd this year. I needed it and I got much stronger. But my similarly depressed husband completely isolated himself and dropped out of our lives. NOT ONCE did he see our baby girl. NOT ONCE. At various stretches, he went three or more weeks without contacting our then six year old son, who he has always adored. Our daughter is now 16 months old and still doesn't know the word "daddy".<P>When I went back to A, I was able to get him to one session with Steve Harley. Guess what he said to him about the Plan B time. "It was a great relief". Enough said. I agree with your conclusion. My husband was ready to slip out of his whole life back then. He was well on his way to permanently ending his relationship with the children. He was ecstatic when I welcomed him back in and he saw that his affair wasn't going to cost him everything. But apparently, not ecstatic enough to end the affair or show any remorse for it (which was started while I was pregnant).<P>I've been doing two daycare drop offs and pick-ups per day, all doctor's appointments and all teacher conferences myself while working full time for the last 14 months. I have been the exclusive parent and custodian of a newborn, now toddler (she has never stayed with him). He has never thanked me for any of this. I have also never complained (to him, I should add). I buy him gifts. I spent $500 in October and gave him and our son a white water rafting trip, which they loved. I've invited him to waterparks, Disneyland, county fairs, dinners, you name it. He comes and has a great time. He never invites me anywhere or buys me anything. I'm lucky to get a thank you, but that's improved. I used to not get acknowlegment of receipt. He still leaves without saying good-bye.<P>The entire situation is extremely complex. I don't think we're dealing with rational human beings at this point. The books and examples we read don't generally talk about situations like this, where the infidel refuses to make a decision and the betrayed refuses to divorce them. Even stranger, the infidel doesn't really seem happy or enamored with the OW. It doesn't look like a romantic fantasy to me. My husband has gained about 50 pounds this year. He wasn't heavy to begin with. The OW is broadly considered his intellectual and social inferior (and mine too). He's too ashamed of her to introduce her to anyone. I can't tell you how many people look at me cockeyed when they ask me what's going on. No one can believe there isn't legal action in process, nor that I'm so friendly to my husband. Sometimes, I can't believe it either. I tell myself I'm going to pull back, but can't. He came by yesterday to pick up our son for soccer, and I couldn't stop myself from sharing my excitement about the pictures I took of the kids with my new digital camera. I gave him everything I had printed out for myself, with great enthusiasm. Yet again today, when returning our son, he left him at the door so he could make the 45 minute drive to his girlfriend's apartment before dark. Didn't even come in to see the baby. It seems that I'm not even capable of pulling back, no matter what he does.<P>So when I give you comments that relate to futility, it refers to my inability to do anything during these 14 months of separation to turn things around. I believe that is because the problem is my husband's depression, not because I have failed at what I'm doing. He has to crash hard enough to do something about it. So I'm playing a waiting game, hoping I can hold on long enough for that to happen. I haven't yet found anything to help. If my Plan B time of total no-contact didn't do it, it's hard to see how pulling back now will. I've made big changes to me and they are recognized. I feel good about that, but it doesn't change the marital situation. It just changes the set of reasons he now uses to justify his behavior.<P>I don't know why I'm blabbing all this so late tonight. Maybe I'm trying to show you that we're compatriots here in what we're doing, even if I talk tough. There are not many of us in this situation. I do not have a SINGLE SUPPORTER of my continued Plan A that I see in real life (only cyber supporters). I am now dishonest with my parents and brother about my interactions with my husband. Every one of my friends and family members has told me that I should serve my husband with divorce papers and be glad to get rid of him (even my inlaws have said this). I'm closer to doing it, but not there yet.<P>It's late. I'm sorry for the long vent. I hope I can help you.

Terri & Distressed,<BR>Even in the last 2 weeks I've been asked "How long are you going to 'hang on'?" My answer is "I don't know. Everyday I wake up and decide if I can hang on today. That's all I really have to do." Much eye rolling takes place. <P>Truly, if someone had told me a year ago I'd still be in this--and would go through 5 more separations (he had just come home for the first time Nov 98)--I probably would have bugged out. And I would have missed some great times--and still would have gone through the crap.<P>Terri, when I read your post, one thought occured to me. This weekend I apologized to my h for being over-emotional (involved recent anger, crying, etc.) He said, "Lor, the way you are is why I fell in love with you."<P>Same goes for you Terri, your H fell in love with you. Yes, be the best Terri you can be--keep on with with anti-deps, no/few LBs, whatever you need. We don't have to compete with the slugs--and I feel like that as well at times. We just have to be who we are. Now, how to get your H to realize it...you can't control that.<P>Sexual games between consenting adults are just that--don't go for anything that makes you unhappy or unwillingly uncomfortable.<P>All my best,<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>