Hi,

I'm new to the boards and came here looking for help from other people that are looking and/or might have a heads up on this kind of stuff. My situation:
- I'm dating an awesome divorced single mother.
- She's 24. Her daughter is 3.5 years old. Her x had multiple affairs.
- I'm 26.
- We recently started talking about marriage.

Here's why I came here:
- My gf can barely remember her past. She spent most of them addicted to heroin and cocaine.
- Her parents forced her into rehab against her will at one point via a 6 month detox program. By all indications it seems to have worked. She tells me that she hasn't relapsed even once. I'm inclined to believe her... but know next to nill about relapse.
- Part of the drug thing... she experienced rape on several occassions (consequence of hanging with the wrong crowd I guess), traded sex for drugs and subsequently got pregnant (more than 2x), miscarried several times and I haven't had the heart to ask if she had to abort (which is a deal breaker for me) or put up a child for adoption though I suspect she did.
- She did a lot of other drugs too and lets just say that she followed the typical addict story.

I am deeply in love with her. I see her in my future. I'm terrified of falling in love with her and then:
- Ending up in a relationship with her, her daughter, and her drugs.

This site talks a lot about how drugs are a deal breaker. I'm not willing to go into a committed relationship with this hanging over my head. Nor do I want to become her anti-drug monitor. I need and am interested in a partner that I can trust absolutely and am actually scared I can't with her because of her past. I was hoping that some of you might have some experience with drug-addiction relapse rates, being in an "addiction-recovered" relationship, etc. Once I decide to ask her to marry me, if I find out about these deal-breakers, I think my heart will break into a 1000 pieces.

How do you cope with the past when it's so scary? Can people really change? I'm hesitant to even mention it because everything I've read about cocaine relapse indicates that just talking about it can trigger cravings for many years after you stop using it. We're getting to a point where I'm going to have to make a decision to stay or leave. How do you cope with this kind of past?

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Sunkist ]</small>

I don't know what your taste in movies is like, but have you ever seen one called Chasing Amy? The actual movie doesn't apply to your situation, but I believe one part of it does. One of the characters talks about how he broke up with a girl named Amy, who he loved and broke up with because of her sordid past, and the fact that he couldn't deal with it. He tells the whole long story, and at the end he says that by the time he is finally able to deal with it all, his chance is gone, and he's destined to spend the rest of his life dating other women but always chasing Amy.

I don't have a particularly exciting past as far as drugs and sex go, but I do have an ex husband and two little girls from that marriage. When I questioned my current boyfriend about his willingness to accept the fact that I had a past, and still carried two little reminders of it with me, he referred to that movie, and told me that the past was something he wasn't concerned with, because I am his future.

In your situation, you can't hold her past against her, because that was all pre-you, but the concern about a drug relapse is valid. My ex-husband was, and is, a cocaine addict. He started in high school, and by the time I met him he had been doing it for three and a half years. The seedy side of the drug world was never a factor, as he and most of his friends had the money to support their habits... or at least the parents did. I didn't know how bad it was until we were already seriously dating, and I gave him a choice: me or the drug. He chose me, but continued to have relapses throughout our relationship and then our marriage.

One doctor explained the cravings as "kindling." Apparently, one of the reasons cocaine is so hard to kick is that the brain is able to recall the exact feeling of the "high" when it's remembered later. Most drugs don't have that capability, so when they talk about it, hear about it, or even think about it, their minds immediately remember how good it feels. That spark of rememberence, and recognition, is called "kindling."

Now that I've given you the bad news, and probably a heart attack, let me add the other side. I know many people who have successfully kicked the habit and never looked back. It all comes down to willpower, and the desire to live a healthy and fulfilling life. My ex, sadly, didn't have enough faith in himself, or anyone else, to stay strong. He had problems with all types of addictions, including drinking and multiple affairs. That doesn't mean that your girlfriend can't stay clean... if she knows that you have faith in her, she might be able to use that as a starting point for having faith in herself.

You say you are scared of falling in love with her only to find out that there are deal breakers for you in her past... well, it's a little late for that, don't you think? If you are already talking about marriage, then the subject should have already been broached and dealt with. You need to tell her all of this, and tell her now. If an abortion, or any other number of things, are deal breakers for you, you have to get over the fear of asking her and do it now to save you both any more agony. What if you get engaged, and then finally work up the nerve to ask her, and then she tells you that she did have an abortion? Are you going to rip the ring off of her finger and make her feel even lower than she already surely does?

You need to broach the subject in a non-confrontational and non-judgmental manner. Don't go into it saying that these are deal breakers or accusing her of any wrongdoing... just tell her that you have a few questions about her past that you feel need to cleared up before your relationship can progress any further.

You said you have talked about going to counseling prior to marriage... that is a very good sign. It sounds like she is willing to do what it takes for you to trust her, and for her to trust herself. No addict is ever completely "cured"... once an addict, always one, but in some instances, people have the right combination of good people around them, a reason to stay clean (her baby is a damn good one), and the willpower to see it through. My advice is to talk about everything - EVERYTHING - before you put a ring on her finger. Leave no doubts undiscussed, no rock unturned. If you love her enough to want to marry her, you owe her the opportunity to give you the truth. If, however, you give her that chance and she is less than honest, tell her about your concerns, and let her know that only by complete and total honesty, radical hoesty, as I believe it's called here, will you be able to deal with her past. You will only get past this by talking, talking, and talking some more. If you think this is the woman you are meant to spend your life with, don't throw it away because you have questions you're too scared to ask. Ask them, and you may be surprised. Give her a little credit... it takes amazing strength to overcome an addiction like that, and if she's truthful about no relapses, she is one tough cookie. Just don't give up until you know everything, good and bad - then make an informed decision. You don't want to decide six months later that she was the one, and you can live with her past, blah blah blah, only to find that you scarred her too deeply the first time. You don't want to be that guy chasing a dream all of his life.

Thank you for that awesome response! Though we have talked about marriage and future, I would never commit to it until these things are resolved. Ripping the ring off of her finger... <shudders> How rude would that be?

Everything huh? I've made a list of questions I'm thinking about asking. I don't know how I can ask these in a non-judgemental manner though. I'm going to post the questions here. Where you were married to a cocaine addict, I'd love for you to toss anything in here that you think I should also ask. Where my questions are full of BS, let me know that too. ;-) My intent is to sleep on most of these and weigh them in my mind. Until the big ones are resolved, I'm not going to take things any further. I won't be Chasing Amy; I'm not that kind of person nor do I believe in the One. I do however believe in a future where I'm happy, I have a family, and am in love with a woman who shares this dream. Can an addict have dreams like this? I don't do well in triangles, either love affairs or when the other corner is a drug.

Here are the questions:
1. What were the other drugs, besides alcohol, ecstasy, and cocaine, that you were addicted to and/or did on a regular basis?
2. How did you get/afford the drugs? What triggers cravings for you? Did you ever trade sex for drugs? How far did you go to obtain them: criminally, sexually, etc.?
3. How many times did you get pregnant prior to marriage?
4. Did any of those pregnancies carry full term? What happened to the child?
5. You told me that you haven't done drugs since you were 18. Is this the 100% truth?
6. How can you reassure me that you aren't going to relapse on ANY of these drugs?
7. What are the behaviors/conditions that would make it more likely for you to relapse?

I'm seriously considering pre-empting this with a pre-nup that would state terms of divorce for any relapse on her part. Plan A and B on this site are great... but a pre-nup is kind of like a Plan B reserve. I just don't know. Like I said, I'm a little overwhelmed. Where are the happy stories? Thanks for sharing that one btw. Any others?

First of all, due to your lack of understanding of addiction, all those questions are valid questions.

I would like to ask if she is in a recovery program such as AA or Cocaine Anonymous, and I would suggest that you attend Alanon. Lots of your questions can be answered from people who have lived with those who have been through the relapse.

Relapse is ALWAYS an uncertainty, She CANNOT guarentee to you that she won't relapse. Please read up on addictions. If you want a guarentee, there is none. She can guarentee that she will never WANT to be like that again, but she cannot guarentee that the disease of addiction won't overpower her reason one day, which is why she should have the support of a group of people who will know exactly what its like to crave the drug, and learn from them what methods they have used to overcome the cravings.

She can stay straight forever. It is possible. Then again, today she could go and get stoned. That is also possible. Alanon will teach you how to live with this uncertainty should you choose to marry her. But do not ever stop attending Alanon meetings on at least a weekly basis! It will be necessary for you to have the support also. There may be a support program for the families of Cocaine addicts, however, Alanon has the same steps and principals no matter what the addiction. Please, attend a few meeting, and if you intend to continue this relationship, married or not, continue Alanon, its a very necessary part of living with an addict, whether they are active in their addiction or not. Also, go to different meetings, not the same ones over and over again.

Please take my advice...Alanon is worth more than gold.

Okay, I had several things I wanted to respond to, but as I am at work, I'll try to keep it a little shorter.

You said you don't know how to ask her all of this in a non-judgemental manner... well, first of all, try to find a safe place to have the conversation. A restaurant is highly overrated for discussions such as these. Secondly, just try to keep in mind, throughout the whole conversation, that this is the woman you love and want to marry - she is not a common criminal. She may have been in the past, but that's not who she is now, so go easy on her. You don't want to be the Gestapo, or worse, Kenneth Star.

Also, you asked if an addict can have dreams... of course they can, they're still human. While under the influence of a mind-altering drug, I wouldn't put much faith in them, but if she's been clean that long, she's surely had time to reevaluate her life and figure out what she wants... and it's obviously not the drugs that she wants.

Another thing I was curious about, which is totally off the subject, is what your background is like. It sounds like you were raised in a somewhat sheltered household (whatever that means these days). Now, if I'm way off here, please let me know... It's not my intention to offend you, so tell me to back off if needed, I don't mind. It's just that you sound a lot like I did when I first found out about that whole world, and I grew up in a very priveleged and extremely sheltered house.

Now to the questions... I don't know if it's just me, but when I read them, they almost sound harsh, and accusatory. I'm sure you don't mean them to be, so you might want to take a second look at your wording. Another suggestion I have is to only ask the questions that are most important for you in the first conversation. And yes, I said first, because this should be the first of many discussions you have on this subject. You don't want her to feel cornered and get defensive... that doesn't exactly pave the road to a productive conversation.

This would be my list of questions... and again, all of this is just my own opinion.
1. What drugs would you say were a serious problem for you?
2. How did you get them?
3. Did you ever have an unwanted pregnancy? If so, what happened?
4. How long has it been since you last did drugs?
5. What triggers cravings for you, and how often do you get them?
6. Do certain people or places make the triggers more intense?
7. What plan of action do you have in place to ensure that you don't backslide? Is there a friend that you can call, or a counselor, when the cravings become overwhelming?
8. What can WE do to help prevent you from going back there again? (The 'we' is a biggie... this shows that while you expect her to do the work, you will be there to support her.)
9. Would you be willing to continue with some kind of therapy (you'll have to agree on what makes you comfortable), and would you keep up with it as a precaution?

As far as the rest goes, you can add or subtract what you want from this... it's only a suggestion. If I may say a few more things, though... If she is being honest about not doing drugs since she was eighteen, and she's twenty-two now, that's a huge difference in maturity levels, especially since she has a baby. Some people just need a good enough reason (something that makes them WANT to stay clean) to keep their lives straight. I know when I had my first baby, I immediatly shot past all of my friends in maturity levels and long-term planning. If she has been clean for four years, applaud her... it really does take strength beyond much of what you or I could imagine.

Lastly, I wouldn't think a pre-nup would be in order unless there is money involved. If that's the case, go for it... I insisted on one with my ex-husband, as I'm the one that came from money and he wasn't. But if there's nothing monetary driving it, don't insult her by asking her to sign something. Unfortunately, divorces are very easy to come by, and you could legally divorce her for doing drugs and breaking your trust, just as you could legally divorce her because you didn't like the way she chewed. I wouldn't push it for anything except the material things.

If you love her, talk all of this over with her as soon as you can. You owe that much to her, and she needs to know what kind of doubts you're having, so she can either appease you or shrug her shoulders with you. Either way, at least it will be out in the open, instead of festering in your mind.

Had a wonderful talk with her last night that answered a lot of these questions. She financed her drugs independently.

She stopped because of family pressure... I think; it's still kind of vague. She did stop and completely (on her own) dissociated herself from the drug culture. The program actually was a disaster... it put her in touch with people who had more and better access to drugs and more variety of drugs... which led her into heroin. She stopped several days later and has never touched any of those drugs. Or so she says. I'm not sure what I think.

Two of the pregnancies ended with miscarriages; one with an abortion; and there were 3.

She obviously regrets all of this stuff in her past. She might be trying to trick me... but I sincerely doubt it. Time will tell though and I do intend to keep my eyes open.

She quit on her own without going into multi-step programs. She went cold turkey... relapsed 8 months later... and then went cold turkey again. She doesn't remember having any withdrawals as such, but her parents went out of their way to take her out on weekends, which was when she would typically go hang out with friends that did drugs. She completely removed herself from those people and only occassionally (once a year or so for a holiday/birthday card) keeps in touch with one of them...

She also has yet to find any situation where she develops cravings. She got active in her church and made a lot of friends there to replace the drug culture. In her marriage, for the past 20 months she has had a daughter. For the 9 months prior to that she was pregnant trying to have a baby. For the 6 months before that she was trying to have a baby but miscarrying.

We talked about what "we" and "us" could do and I told her some of the concerns I have shared here. We talked about some of those other things and thank god she hasn't hit any of the dealbreakers I had like abortion, etc.

It was a very gentle conversation and at several points, I think if I had pressed harder she would have burst into tears. If it was an act, it was Oscar-worthy. I feel so much better... but like I said, I'm going to be keeping my eyes open as I go forward... and unfortunately, I think that postponing the marriage proposal is a given.

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Sunkist ]</small>

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Sunkist ]</small>

I was once very addicted to drugs, and yes the addiction is a nasty one. My drug of choice was Rock Cocaine. I put myself into a treatment center once I realized that I didn't want my life to end up like some of the people I was hanging out with. I have been clean now for 16 years, and have never relapsed. It is possible. One thing I notice, is that you are so set on the relapse issue and how you can't handle that if it happens. Don't get me wrong, I understand your concerns, but praise for her being clean this long, and supporting her that it won't happen again is what she really needs. It takes so much for a person to get clean and stay clean, and if they are surrounded by people that look at them all the time out of the corner of their eye waiting for them to slip up, they may do just that. Everyone has skeletons, everyone has some kind of past, but people can change their lives for the better and learn from mistakes that they have made. Your girlfriend sounds like she is one that is really sincere about wanting to move forward with her life and leave the past where it's at, in the past.
I do wish you the best, but please don't sit around waiting for her to fail. Praise her for where she has taken herself

Thanks for sharing that story! 16 years! Congrats! My girlfriend did rock cocaine and heroin (needles), though in her words, she did it in whatever form it happened to be available in... and can't recall any specific type she preferred.

Just one thing about your comment I'd like more info on... and this is what scares me about relapse. I can only speak for myself. So, I can treat her like she's a wonderful person rather than an addict. But, I can't say that for other people. So, we meet some people who do treat her that way... if THAT alone increases her chances of a relapse... <sighs>. I don't understand that logic of this. I'm going to do it just to prove you're right?! Is that what you meant to say?

Now, I know that for some people, there is a tendency to go, "Everyone thinks I'm doing this, so I might as well." Is that what you're talking about? What if I'm the only one who believes in her?

More interesting to me... and I have a bzillion questions for you. If you want send me an email with the answers if you don't want them posted here...
- How did you stay clean for 16 years? Any specifics.
- How long after your last use before the cravings noticeably became more or less controllable... where "controllable" is defined as "didn't adversely affect your life".
- Do you still have cravings and what triggers them? What do you do when it happens?
- Does your significant other know all this stuff about you? What has your SO done that has been helpful to you? What has your SO done that has not been?
- What consequences do you feel like you still carry from when you were addicted?
- What made you give it up?
- If you came across my girlfriend and somehow knew she was having a craving, what would you say to her and do to help it pass?
- She told me that her rehab program helped her get in touch with users... and actually was a huge step backwards for her. Was it that way with you? It seems that Alanon and whatnot would be awful that way... my perspective.
- Is your story typical? In that, you have been clean this long. Most of the stories I've found are of relapse after relapse leading into nightmares of ruin.

I would love any words of wisdom you might care to share above and beyond what I've asked here.

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Sunkist ]</small>

How do you know she's telling you the truth about any of the questions you've asked?

If you find out later that she was lying, it will be much harder to back out. By then, it will be too late.

She is 22. That's a lot younger than you in terms of how solidified her personality is. She is not likely to be the same person when she is 28.

My heart already broke in to a thousand pieces.I remember the exact second it happened. It's still vivid in my mind. I asked all the questions, and got satisfactory answers. Later, too late, I found out he was lying, and he's probably still lying about some things.

So far, she hasn't given me any reason to doubt her. But, I have decided to postpone asking her to marry me so that I can have more time see for myself. I guess at some point, you have to rekindle faith in humans - in spite of the SPITE others may have inflicted on us - and walk by faith. At the point that she gives me cause for doubt, I'll reinvestigate.

I'm sorry you were hurt. In hindsight, what would you have done differently to find out the things so reassuring were in fact lies? I'd also like to add the hope that by the time she is 28... that she has grown and matured. There's very little I can do to control her actions; I can only be supportive of GOOD decisions in her life.

I suppose that if she chooses to return to drugs, I will do what I have already looked into - my state allows divorce based on drug addiction. I don't believe in "The One". Being The One is a decision we make in the quiet moments of our lives during temptation. I see it as being tied to integrity and anyone at anytime can make decisions that hurt those that love them. It would hurt her child and parents too. I can always leave.

Hi Sunkist,

I was trowling threads for something like this. I'm dating a wonderful girl who shares some similiarities with your girlfriend. I'm curious to know how things are going... you haven't had much follow up. Are you still together? Did you ever get your answers resolved?

I love her so much. Like you, there are some things there that scare me. I'd love to know what's going on if you don't mind sharing. Please email me at tover26@yahoo.com. I think my biggest concern/fear is of doing something that inadvertently triggers a craving for her... or (on the flipside) making her feel bad about her past through something I say which, without meaning to be, comes across as insensitive. I'd hate to treat her as anything other than how I feel about her - my love.

Well, since no one wants to jump onto this thread, I thought I'd revisit it with some of my own thoughts. Addictions are terrible things... whether it's psychological or chemical or whatever. I think that they're a strange driver of our lives because at some level we are all addicted to one thing or another. The thing that is hardest to deal with for me is the turning (or possibility of) to an addiction of pleasure, like drugs, and away from the love and life of a family. Having already had to deal with the pain of an affair, I don't know what I would do if the other "lover" in the relationship were a widely-available substance pleasurably addictive with a proven ability to rip apart the lives of not just the addict, but of everyone around them as well.

I've thought a lot about this in the context of my relationship with my girlfriend and besides deciding on patience, I have yet to see her do anything or act in any way that would indicate even a desire on her part to re-engage this kind of thing. I've also figured out what I would do if such a thing happened. It's a difficult thing Sunkist, but if you love her and she loves you - theoretically you SHOULD be able to work through anything, if she's flexible. The hard thing about drugs are that they can take a fairly flexible and reasonable person and turn them into something unrecognizable. I guess. I really don't know and hope that I never have to deal with this. I hope she loves me and the vision of "us" enough to stay far away from that other world.

Make sure that she has a social circle that is supportive of activities and such that have nothing to do with that I guess... it's the only thing you can really do. I'd still love to hear positive things on this topic.

Sunkist-

Just read this thread. On one of your posts you state

"Two of the pregnancies ended with miscarriages; one with an abortion; and there were 3."

Nobody else has pointed this out. At the end of that same post you stated

"We talked about what "we" and "us" could do and I told her some of the concerns I have shared here. We talked about some of those other things and thank god she hasn't hit any of the dealbreakers I had like abortion, etc."

which is a dealbreaker you brought up as a concern in your very first post. Just wanted to bring attention to this in case its of value to you and your decisions.