I'm going to try to explain everything, but I guess I have to keep into perspective that this is just my side of the situation.

Brief history: My Girlfriend: She's a graduate with a BFA (Bach. of Fine Arts). Her parents divorced when she was young (about 4 or 5). Her grandmother was sick so her mom quit her job (back in 96 or 97) and just started working again in 2002. In that timeframe, nearly all of her investments had been cashed out, and she went back to work because they needed money. Her father has essentially been retired for (most likely) all of my g/f's life and has had in the region of 10+ girlfriends since their divorce. She lives with her mom, in their house that is completely disorganized. When I go over there, I either sit on their computer desk, or on a dining room chair. No sofa or anything else, because it's covered in 'junk'. They are embarassed to have people over. My g/f does not have her licence. She has been saying for the last 3 years she's going to get it, but something keeps coming up, and she procrastinates and doesn't seem like she really wants to, eventhough she says she does. I said to myself that if she postpones her driving exam again, that it would be the end of the relationship. Well, that happened a short time ago, but I think I convinced myself that it really isn’t a big deal. Her mom drives her nearly everywhere, and maybe 15% of the time she takes public transit. I sometimes pick her up and drive her to my place or if we go out somewhere. She's never had a part-time job. She's only worked in the summers, and of the summer jobs, she's only been paid for 2 of the last 8 summers, as some of it was volunteering. Her aunt whom she is close with does not work, and has not worked for at least 10-15 years. Apparently her aunt is living big, but does not have $ in her bank. She sells stuff she owns to get $. My g/f graduated in April 2003, and has not been doing anything with herself since. She worked last summer, because her boss at the volunteer place wanted some time off for personal reasons. Since then, nothing, until about mid July (this year) she received a part-time job from a family friend of my parents.


My history: I come from a family that there was no divorce. My parents have always pushed me to do the best that I can, and I've been taught that when I take something on, I do it until it's completed. I graduated college in April 2000, and was immediately hired to run a web development program for corporate training. In August 2000 I left that job to work as a Web Manager at a college and university, and to teach in the program that I graduated from. I have been working at the college/university since and continue to work there. In Feb. 2002 I started a corporation with an old friend of mine as a part-time business. Since 1991 I have been freelancing as a web designer/developer and have had many contracts through that stream. While attending college, I did not have a real part-time job, but I was freelancing. The summer between the 2 years of my program, I had a job that I left so that I could complete my education. I consider myself to be a go-getter. When we started dating, I was quite large. In March 2001 I decided to take my health back into control, and over the following 9 months I lost 80 lbs. (I've kept it off thus far! yay!, although I could stand to lose another 15). At the age of 24, I bought a decent sized condo (1400 sq ft.). I am doing very well for myself, and I do not want to degrade my standard of living. My g/f is the best person that I have ever dated (my last g/f was for 2.5 years, before her about 4 months, before her about 9 months).
I'm 26, and my g/f is 25. We've just passed the 5 year mark dating.

About 2 years ago, I brought up the subject of marriage, and she said no, that she wanted to wait until she was done school. About 5 or 6 months later it came up again, and she again said no.

Well, she graduated in April 2003, and she always said that she was going to go do more school. So I was telling her in Dec. 2002 to look into schools, so that she doesn't waste a year. Well, she procrastinated and didn't apply. To that end, she had a summer job that she knew was only for a few months.

After being told no on so many occassions (at least 5 or 6), I guess I felt discouraged and somewhat annoyed. And she was talking about marriage, and I wasn't sure if we were right for eachother. That was about 1 year ago. I told her at that point (everything that I've mentioned in this posting), that I wasn't 100% sure and that I wanted to be sure, because marriage is something that is forever. She understood that I wanted to be sure, although she wondered what changed my mind. What changed my mind was her lack of ability for planning her future, and having direction. Looking at it now, it feels more like she doesn’t want to grow up and become a responsible adult, along with her direction and ability to be self-supporting (ie. Work, driving, etc)

Since then, I got her to apply for school for Sept. 2004 and she's accepted a 1 year program but I only feel that she chose it because I pushed her to do something. I don't want her to change who she is because of me. She should go into a program that she wants for herself, not one that I want for her.

I have told her that if she wants to move in with me, that she needs to get a part-time job. At least make a couple of hundred a month, $200, $150 even, bring in something, contribute, pay for a bill/food/etc. Something... anything...

About 10 months ago, she was contacted by someone to do 2 paintings. She just recently (as in a few weeks ago) finished 1 of them. She puts her responsibility to the side (the paintings, cleaning, etc.). She went to Florida to vacation with her dad and his girlfriend. She came home and then left to England for a few weeks to visit her best friend who moved there a year ago. She came home and a couple weeks later flew back to Florida to close their condo (her grandfather sold it). She's been back for at least 2 weeks, and no work on the paintings. Her best friend just came into town for a month, and she's putting everything aside to spend as much time with her as possible, which is definately a nice gesture, but she should be out working, gaining work experience, making $, etc.

That basically leaves us where we are today.

I love her. She's a great person. Nice, caring, respectful and beautiful.

I do not want to throw away the last 5+ years because I think something is important when it very-well may not be. I've bought her many things and spent a lot of money on her over the years, and I know that's not all that important, but I think it is. It's like an investment, emotionally, physically, and financially.

I need some advice here....

1. Is not having motivation (wanting a career, direction in life, etc.) a deal breaker?

2. I perceive driving to be, in a sense, a sign of independance. Is this true? Is not being able to drive (becuase of a lack of motivation, [she has no other reason for not getting her licence, she says she's not scared]) a deal breaker?

3. Is not having a career a deal breaker?

4. Am I looking at things wrong?

5. Am I right in not wanting to degrade my standard of living?

6. Is her lack of motivation with the paintings a warning indicator that I'm not seeing?

7. Is there something that I'm missing?

You can marry her if you want to fully support her the rest of your life....

Because she sees no need to work, earn much money, etc and is perfectly comfortable to live off other people. You will not change this attitude.

If you marry her your house will be messy, she will not drive, she will not contribute financally, if you have kids your life will be a living hell because these irritants, these things about her you don't like will multiply by 10.

You are already pushing her to get more schooling, etc. You will have to push her to do everything in life. For the next 50-60 years.

Is she worth it?

Copper--

You ask if things are "dealbreakers" as if there is a universal list of "dealbreakers"....there isn't. Each person has to decide what is a dealbreaker to him or her. It is not a matter of looking at things right or wrong. It is a matter of what you will/won't be happy with.

The biggest thing is that YOU don't appear happy with many of her attributes. That is a big red flag, and one you should take very seriously.

Finally, don't even consider marrying someone hoping/expecting that they will change. If things bother you now, chances are they will bother you even more later on. So, I'd suggest you think carefully about this issue.

Good luck--

Kathi

Copper,

I will take Kathi's advice even further. I don't know where I learned this but I learned it decades ago and it stood me in good steed every since and kept me out of at least one bad marriage and probably a few other marriages.

Your GF has NO problems. She is living her life just as she wishes and it is working out just fine.

The problems are YOUR problems because you expect certain things out of someone you are going to marry. You are right to expect these things, but you are wrong to expect them out of her. She will not change and you cannot change her. You clearly have attributes that she likes, but you don't have enough of them or should have said yes to marrying you.

Copper, she will not change, and what you dislike about her, she is very happy with thankyou very much. It is time to end this relationship now and find a woman who's habits and approaches to life you find to your taste.

I will tell you that in my 20's I dated alot. I was strongly attracted to beautiful women and dated many. I was a professional, had money, had time, and dated alot. But other than one woman I was engaged to in my early 20's and realized did not view life as I did and thus became unengaged to, I did NOT marry any of those women. Why?

I learned that I needed a W that could function without me. A woman that was pretty independent with regard to doing things, but one that wanted a family and felt that family came ahead of a career. I found that woman in my early 30's, but she was NOT a beautiful woman. She was a nice looking woman, who into her 50's has indeed held her figure well, in my eye, and has been everything I needed with regard to the issues I mentioned.

My point, you cannot change them, and if something is bugging you, it is YOUR problem. You know what you are looking for in a W, and this GF is NOT her. Time to face this. No matter how beautiful she is, how nice she is, how good a friend she is, she is NOT the woman you should marry. Her core values are different from yours and they will NOT change.

Copper, take it from an older and I hope wiser <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> man. You have NOT found the woman that should be your W.

God Bless,

JL
PS: You also did NOT waste your time with this GF, because she has taught you alot about what it will take for a woman to be a W to you. You have also had good times together, and shared many things. So all is really to the good here. It is just time to move on IF you are ready to get married. If not, then enjoy her company, for she does sound like a very pleasant person.

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Copper, you should read up on my story. I can find you links if you like. I married a 45-year old male version of your g/f, except that he found a hobby that would keep him fed.... as well as make a mess out of my home.

Go get the book "Will Our Love Last?" I forget who wrote it. It has qualitative compatibility tests. Take them.

Candidly, all I can say is if you're not sure now after 5 years, you won't be any more sure after 6, and you should probably trust your gut. Love alone is NOT enough. And you've been growing and changing, and she has not.

At 26, you own a condo, have a business, and have developed a good physique. Unless you are in some way crippled, you are prime marriage material in most women's eyes.

If I were you, I'd explore my options. Of course, I'd explored my options and chose my h., but then, I was incredibly immature for 28.
Ooops. I didn’t mean to sound to negative. JL had some awesome points.

As someone who married a slop who doesn’t make any plans or set any goals, I can now tell you after 6 years of agony, there is nothing wrong with him. Nothing. He cruises through life just fine. So, he’s a little depressed right now because I’m divorcing him.

However, when I’m coupled with him, I’m a nut case. I’m ready to inflict bodily harm on him or myself. I used to vacuum around his mess saying “I hate you.” over and over and over. He basically forced his lifestyle on me, and I couldn’t stand it.

I do recognize that when I tried to impose my lifestyle on him early in the marriage, he couldn’t stand it either. I backed off, but if I hadn’t we’d have been divorced much sooner.

The real problem was we were so very, very different in our approach to life and our values. Heck, we’re so different we can’t even agree we’re different!

Hey, Copper, thanks for coming here BEFORE you got married!

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

Thank you to all of you who responded...

I do understand that the problems are mine and not hers, simply because she doesn't have all the attributes of the woman that I foresee myself being with.

I understand that relationships, and yes even marriage, require some giving and taking, however I see the point where there are some things that just cannot be given or taken (emotional attributes).

My gut is saying not to go on, but my heart is saying be with her. We get along very well, and she is my best friend. It would be strange to not have her around. However, I don't want to stay around just because I feel secure and comfortable in the relationship.

I guess secretly I don't want to lose her. What would I do if she became the woman that I wanted her to be, and I wasn't with her? On the other hand, what if we stayed together and she didn't?

I know you're saying I can't expect her to change.. I understand that, and I totally agree. But what if??

Yes, we could always split, and if she changes get back together...

She's said in the past that if we ever split, she wouldn't be able to be friends with me because she's be too hurt. I totally understand part of that (I stopped calling my ex a psycho about 2.5 years after we split).

I would hate to lose her as a friend, she knows me very well and we've been through a lot together.

Let's suppose I did want to split (I'm on the fence, and have been for a little while), what should I do or say? Again, I don't want to ruin any potential friendship that might come of it afterwards. Throughout our relationship we've been totally open and honest with eachother (yes, I've even had several conversations regarding my first e-mail with her).

Ideas? Thoughts?

You got some great advice from some of the best posters here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I won't try to add to their wise words, other than to second the advice to read "Will Our Love Last?". It will answer your questions, though unfortunatley, it will tell you to dump the GF, because you are not compatible (based on your description).

In fact, in the book, he goes through all the WRONG reasons to get married, and your situation reflects many of them, such as fear of not being able to do better, or to end up alone. The author points out that the whole point of dating is to find a compatible partner (and he gives three very simple ways of measuring compatibility), and he encourages people to "optimize" until they find a truly compatible partner, not to just latch on to a warm (even if beautiful) body. JL gave you great words of wisdom on that topic, and I can only second it from my experience, as I have found quite a number of pretty and good women in the last few years, but none of them were compatible with me. And I was smart enough to see that.

Anyway, get the book, it is a good read.

Good luck,

AGG

I've gone to a local retailer, and they didn't have it... I've got to do a bit more searching to find it...

Amazon has the electronic version for download at $9.95.

Please, before you really make up your mind, read some of my old posts. I'll show you pictures of what your house will be like.

I thought I could help/save/change my husband. I didn’t realize he really enjoyed living his life the way he did. In the end, there were two deal breakers in my marriage: His inventory and business stuff in the house and situation X. Situation X is a legal situation, but it developed because of sloppy habits and a drifting attitude. Now, it’s built and built and is big.

People don’t change in the essentials. If you drift apart in some of your interests or the way you communicate, those can usually be bridged. But, you’re talking about some fundamental differences here in your modus vivendi, or way of living. If you are compatible in the other two areas, sex and world view, you may be able to be happy, but yours will probably end up one of those marriages with daily rubs.

So, Copper, do you two understand the world in the same way? Do you want the same things out of life? And how’s the sex, or the kissing, petting, whatever?

Copper,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess secretly I don't want to lose her. What would I do if she became the woman that I wanted her to be, and I wasn't with her? On the other hand, what if we stayed together and she didn't?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is where your thinking is failing you. She is fully capable of being a good friend to you, because she possesses many attributes of a good friend, not the least of which she is a good person.

However, for a spouse there needs to be much more. Have you noticed she has turned down your proposals of marriage. My bet she knows she doesn't fit with you well, but she is in the same boat. She doesn't want to lose you from her life.

But, the reality is she will NOT change because the things that are bothering you about her are HER. It is how she sees the world, how she takes information and reacts toit. She could try and "fake" it and may even pull it off for a few years even a decade but at some point she will need to be herself.

Copper, there are very few certainties in life but one of this is that people are who they are. My father after raising my brother and sisters and I came to a realization one day. He realized despite all of the discipline, training, education, rearing he and my mother did, none of us changed one bit from when we were very young, with regard to personality. The good, and the bad were still there and they were the same issues.

My friend, your friend is NOT going to change on the base levels and neither are you. I don't think you realize that you somehow expect her to change but that you don't have to. I know why don't think you have to, it would be very hard, and you are doing things the right way now anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well, so is she.

What you have not seemed to understand is that neither of you are wrong in your approaches, in your likes and dislikes. It is just who you are. Since who she is does bother you on basic levels, this relationship has no hope of evolving further, than just friendship.

In fact if you expressed these things to her in this fashion, I think she just might continue to be your friend. ONe of the most loving things one can do, is learn to appreciate another person for who they are and accept them as that.

Copper, she is not W material for you and I think she knows you are NOT husband material for her. But she like you wants to keep the friendship at least until the right marriage material does come along.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

hey greengables...

our intimate life is just fine :-)

I'm definately not about to rush a decision... I've been thinking about things for a few months now... so I'm just going to read the book and maybe another one, and see how I feel then.

Basically, we want the same things, it's just a matter of if she really wants the same things and what she would be willing to do to get those things. (Does that make sense?)

Basically, she says she wants a career... she wants to drive... she wants she wants she wants...

I recently went out of town for some business (for 6 days)... and we had a discussion before I left. My point was basically get out of bed early, and do stuff with yourself outside of her home. When I came back, she had made me some art for my place (she said before I got my condo she was going to... that was well over a year ago), she got the part-time job (eventhough it was through a family friend of mine)...

She seems to be taking very small baby steps. Her b-day wasn't too long ago. Her mom got her a card (mushy one) that said essentially that her childhood years are over, and now it's a new stage etc. She was offended by the card. The other day I made a comment about how nice she looked, and that she looked somewhat grown-up. She basically said thanks... she knows... and she doesn't like it. It's like she fighting growing up, when she knows that it's something that I really want her to do. And I want her to do it because she wants to, not because I want to, and I've made that very clear to her.

She has to want to do something because she wants to, not because I want her to. Again, the "problems" that I see in her are really just issues that I have with what she's not. I don't want her to do something becuase I suggest it. If that happens there's the potential for her to be angry with me down the road.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

hey JL...

I hear you...

the proposals never happened as proposals... it was just in conversations. We would be talking about us, and I would say something to the effect of, if you want to get married, let me know, and her response was always, wait until I'm done school. She always said that she was going to do additional schooling after her BFA. She has (since graduating) said to me that I'm who she wants to be with. At that point (due to her saying not now to me) I said that I wasn't ready. I don't know exactly why I said that... but I did. I've told her that if she wants to move in with me, that she needs to get a job. She's said that she doesn't want to have a job while she's in school, and since she's going back to school, I guess that's why she never looked for a fulltime job (just my thought, never really got an answer as to why she wasn't doing anything with herself, and never really pressed the issue too much). She knows that I'm upset with her for not doing anything over the past year with herself (ie. work, volunteering, something, anything).

Deep down she's a great person, I just wish she was in a closer stage of life to me. I've been working fulltime since I graduated in early 2000.

I've been thinking about it... and it really comes down to her being more of an adult. Maybe I need a 40-y.o. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

ok... so I found the book... bought it... and I'm at the end of ch. 2.

This is what I've learned so far:

1. I am not the same person as my g/f, our history (ie. how we were brought up and raised) was quite different.

2. We do have similar religious beliefs, which is good.

3. We are about a 50% match on our practical dimension. I like an expensive car, she likes something more economical. Not a problem b/w us. As for keeping house, she prefers a clean place (she was quite busy a few months ago cleaning up her mother's stuff and making the place a bit neater), and I like to keep things neat, tidy, in their place, and put away. I tend to only let something go out of place and messy for about a week (at most) before I do something about it. As for style of decoration, everything in my condo was picked by me and 90% on my own. It's a modern technical-style but comfy feel. She's got no problem with it and likes what I did with my place.

4. Our sexual dimension is strong.

5. I feel we're about a 75-80% match on the wavelength dimension. We're usually in tune with eachother, as we've learned eachothers likes and dislikes. I feel that as couples grow, they tend to start to enjoy things (styles, events, etc.) that they didn't think they would like beforehand. Call it "growing with eachother" and expanding horizons. Sometimes she likes a song I can't stand, or vice versa (usually the other way around). No biggie... we change the channel or CD and solved. With the TV, we like the same types of shows (lots of A&E, TLC, and Discovery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). There are sometimes when I wonder what she sees in something (ie. sushi). Not my thing... but when she wants it I sit with her in the restaurant while she enjoys... and then she goes with me to eat, or sometimes she picks it up as a mid-afternoon snack. She likes to travel (me, eh, sometimes, but more vacation vs. travel). Ie. I like 4-5 star resorts, so does she but she also likes staying in hostles (sp?), not quite my cup of tea. She understands that I'm not into that type of travel, so she doesn't expect me to do it, let alone even ask me to. Well, she asks, but she already knows the answer.

I'll keep you posted as I get through it more. It'll probably be a good couple of days or so until I get through all of it. With work and all... gotta make a living! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a feeling this is going to turn more into a BLOG than anything else.. hope you don't mind...

Blog away.

Ok... so I've finished the book...

I've compared some of the situations mentioned in there to my relationship and this is what I've come up with.

Out of the 3 dimensions, we're aligned on the sexual one. On the wavelength we're about 50% and on the practical we're about 25%.

In the book, the author states that at least 2 of these dimensions should be totally aligned.. preferably the wavelength and 1 of the others.

He also states that some relationships have a certain something that just makes it work regardless of the dimension alignment.

Through the rest of the book I felt like things b/w us are reasons enough to call it quits, but I have a reservation about it. I'm thinking that perhaps she should read the book too, but I'm not too sure how to discuss that with her. It feels kind of akward. I don't want to lose her as a friend (she's my best friend), and I think the only way to do that is to have her read it and get the same impression that I got. She doesn't know that I bought the book.

Do you think that I should just make the decision?
OR
Do you think that I should afford her the opportunity to read this book and then we can take it from there?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

50% on the Wavelength dimension is pretty bad, and combined with only 25% in the Practical dimension, you pretty much have your answer. What you do with that knowledge is certainly your choice, but I think you do have the answer. Sorry...

OTOH, better off knowing it now and being able to call it off (if you so decide), than facing the same problems within a marriage, with a couple of kids in the picture.

AGG

So I told her that I bought the book, and that I want her to read it too. She's got no prob. with it.

She also suggested that maybe we see a counsellor or something...

We'll see what happens after she reads the book.