Such sad times...W and I are to the point of quitting(she hasn't said but by the way she's been acting toward me the last three days, she has made up her mind). We had a bad session at therapy Friday. She still intends to move out. I have asked that she be truthful to me about current status of OM. She refuses, saying that's "prying".<P>I talked to our joint therapist today alone via phone. She told me that I wanted something that W cannot give. She uses the metaphor "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?". Well the answer is obvious, but someone please help me here...<P>Is wanting to know the current state of the W/OM relationship before a second separation, wanting to be right(as the therapist told me today)??<P>I guess I shouldn't have read all of the material about affairs, maybe I could have handled this better. Everything I've read, and everyone I've talked to(except W's therapist) says that OP has to be gone completely for re-building to be successful. I never even asked for that much. I never asked for details about the affair or anything. All I wanted to know about was the present.<P>I'm really sliding downhill now...I guess it's doctor-time, I need some anti-deps to cope with the final separation...I love her so much and what little I asked for was too much.

Oh, Heartpain, I am so sorry. You have the right idea - head straight for the doctor. You are doing a hard thing and a little help would be great right now.<P>I know what you mean about needing the OP gone. But, you know, I've noticed hanging around here for a few months now that it doesn't always work that way. I know it's the way it's supposed to be, but I remember a few who Plan a-d AROUND the OP and did ok. Just plan-a'd them right out of the picture. Just some food for thought.<P>But, we do know, as long as the OP is in the picture, you're not gonna get honesty. Can't happen. It's also gonna make it much harder on you.<P>It's gotta be your decision. And it's not an easy one.<P>But we're here. All the way. No matter what you decide.<P>Hang in there. Believe in yourself and follow your OWN best instincts. I think you can trust them.<P>Lori

Trust your intuition. How do you feel about working on your marriage if om is still in the picture ?<P>My stbx would not give om up either time we were in joint counseling.<BR>The first time around she gave up after the first session and just went thru the motions according to her and the counselor.<P>The second time, she was drawn to em about a week and then I felt her pulling away and getting distant. When she started yelling at me for no reason, I asked her if om was still in the picture and she said yes.<P>At that point I felt I had had enough. We had also planned to go to her mothers for T-day, all the while see was still involved with om. That just killed it for me. <P>The question is how much are you willing to put up with, and how repentent/remorseful is your w ? My stbx was neither.<P>Best of luck and God Bless!

Isn't that a little smug:<BR>"Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?"<P>The last thing I'd ask this therapist before replacing her is does your wife...<BR>want to the do the right thing and remain married?<P>A play on words, I know. But shouldn't the therapist also try to show each of you how to see it from the other person's point of view? She seems a bit biased.<P>Hang in there. saying prayers for all of us.<P>--keystone

Heartpain,<P>Don't be so down on yourself...<P>It is <B>not</B> wrong to want to know... but when the affair really isn't over... when W's withdrawal wasn't genuine... and no real commitment by her is there... you can't force it to be the way you want!<P>I agree... if you can tough out some more Plan A... do it! But don't let it break/tear you down. Anti-dep medication (especially with holidays looming heavy) is a good idea.<P>Maybe it's time to fix a time limit to Plan A... I did... late Jan/early Feb. My W's discovery was also this past April.<P>Consider protecting yourself... your love for her... Plan B? It is a hard decision... hard plan to follow... but didn't Harley say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The path that leads to recovery is very narrow...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Prayers are coming your way tonight guy!<P>Jim

lostva -- I never insisted that OM be completely out of the way. I know how much W sees him as her best friend. I told her(and still feel) that I could accept that. It's just that it's so hard to be positive when the situation is kept in doubt. I guess some would call this a "lie by omission", but I think it's more deception than dishonesty.<P>She had started to be more honest on her feelings in general and I really appreciated that. In fact, the "current status" of OM wasn't all that important except for her moving out.<P>I really appreciate your support and encouragement.<P>RWD -- It really depended on how much in the picture OM was. Just as a close friend would have been fine. And, unfortunately, that may have been where we were at, she just wouldn't say. Seeing here on the forum and other places and books how many people suffer thru deceptions of this type, made me feel incredibly insecure about this and I was looking for some reassurance from W. She just cannot give it to me for some reason. I don't necessarily believe that it's because something is going on, but I cannot be sure if I'm kept in the dark.<P>I believe she is somewhat remorseful/repentful, but this is a topic that tends to strike too close to OM topic and we don't really talk about it. <P>I believe I could put up with anything except blatant emotional and any physical infidelity, but given the current state of things, how would I know? I trust her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt, but not enough to give blind trust.<P>I know enough of your situation to admire how you are handling it. Hang tough.....<P>Keystone -- <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But shouldn't the therapist also try to show each of you how to see it from the other person's point of view? She seems a bit biased.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I always felt that therapist was a little on the side of W. I do credit that mostly to the fact that she had been seeing her for six months and came to know her pretty well. She did help to point out the things I was doing wrong and how to correct them, but when I expressed how I felt, she did listen, but didn't seem to feel that it was more important that what I did wrong.<P>I know I did wrong, but the feelings I had were often the cause. Easing my feelings would have made it much easier to change the behavior(s) and I did say that during the sessions, but it seemed to fall on deaf ears.<P>Good luck Keystone and thanks from all of us for the prayers.<P>NSR --<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and no real commitment by her is there<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>To be honest, I did feel that there was a commitment from W, just not total commitment.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but when the affair really isn't over<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ay, there's the rub. This is exactly what I really wanted to know. I know that at one point, things were just put on hold between them pending W's decision. This might very well have been changed to the benefit of the work on the marriage, but I couldn't find out for sure.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if you can tough out some more Plan A<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am continuing to do this, but I do slip up occasionally. God, I hate it when I have a setback, because it devastates W and erases all of the good things that had happened between us.<P>I'm not really a religious person, but the prayers are appreciated.....<P>Note to all -- I originally called therapist to try to see her alone(she offered this on Friday). She very coldly asked "Why do you want to see me"? I told her that I wanted to discuss some things with her and she just said "What are they?". I really felt that she just wanted to blow me off and she kinda did, getting off the phone after some discussion without even addressing whether I could see her or not. It really hurt my feelings.<P>

heartpain, I am sorry I have not noticed your situation before, maybe we were both laying low. I have to side with RWD more than some of the others. Do you really want to stay in a marriage where your wife's best friend is not you, but some other guy, that she could at any time resume the affair? If it has not been physical yet, it could at anytime start. I personally don't want that type of marriage regardless of how much I love my wife. I believe what harley says about the OP having to be out of picture to have marital recovery . Once you recover maybe she could stay friends with him, but I would not want that fire in your life. Otherwise, if OM is still around you are really still in plan A mode and it does not matter what she says about OM still in the picture or not. You must decide how much of that you will put up with. I personally am ready to move onto plan B, cutoff excessive financial support, and let things happen.

Izzy -- I know I sound like a complete idiot, but I <B>do</B> believe that if W wants to stay in the marriage, she will be able to keep OM as a friend. This is contrary to everything I have read here and elsewhere, but I believe it to be true. I just wanted some reassurances from her.<P>UPDATE -- I talked to my therapist about the phone conversation with the joint counsellor and she advised me to tell W about it as counselor probably would(where are ethics these days?). It has been a slow process from the ultimate sadness this weekend and coolness of W's towards me to a complete re-warming yesterday(T-day) and even telling me she loved me(today).<P>I decided after much consideration that I should tell her about the phone call. However, I started by breaking the news to her that I would no longer feel it necessary to let me know the status of OM. That if there was still any desire left to try to work things out, that I would just sit back while she did what she needed to do(including moving out) without putting any conditions or criteria on how I would decide what I would do. She said she hasn't given up completely yet(but I think she is really close).<P>So, Sheba(if you see this), I finally took your advice. It may be too late, but therapist gave me some referrals to get anti-deps which I intend to use. The most heartening thing she(T) told me was that most of the anti-deps tackle anxiety before getting the strength to hit depression. The anxiety is what was driving me to know what W/OM's status was. It drove me crazy. I have some hope that the meds may help this.<P>After this discussion, I told W about the phone call with her/joint therapist. She seemed quite disturbed by my portrayal and wanted to bring it up in her individual session tonight(she's there now). I asked her not to unless therapist did first. I am no longer angry or really upset at her actions. I just attribute it to her taking sides(even unknowingly). My mistake was in asking that she keep it(the call) between the two of us for now. I didn't want to get the third degree from W on what I wanted to talk about as I wasn't even sure yet. I fully intended to brief W before the session. Anyway, my therapist said that if someone in a similar situation had made the same request of her, alarm bells would have gone off. She would have been more polite and receptive in the initial conversation, but would have been thinking out why did it need to be kept quiet.<P>My therapist told me that she almost never has to consider that situation as she won't do joint counseling for a couple if she is seeing one separately. And even if she is seeing both separately, she would think long and hard about doing joint work. <P>She has also been supportive in my desire to know what the current situation is between W/OM. The only dissenters from this position that I have found are W and her therapist. However, that makes no difference. I've decided that I would rather be "married than right", so I will forgo any attempt to get W to keep me informed.<P>The marriage may still be over, but I've got to give it one last shot. We both agree that we do love each other very much. It would be a shame to get a D, but I guess sometimes it's unavoidable as well as unfortunate.<P>Forgive the length of the update......

Well W got back from her therapy session. T asked her if I had mentioned the phone call and W said yes. W said that I had felt a little "put down". T said she was "straight" with me and since I didn't reiterate that I wanted to talk to her, she thought I had changed my mind. The only problem with this is that she hurriedly let me go before we could return to the subject. She also told W that she thought it was "improper" for her to ask me if I still wanted the session. Go figure!!<P>I think that the therapist is either actively against W staying with me or she is a bigger nutcase than I am.

Heartpain,<BR>Sorry you are having so many problem getting to the truth. Thats one thing mystbx didn't do. As soon as I asked her, all 3 times if she was still involved she said yes. She lied to me about a million other things related but as soon as I asked directly about om she confirmed.<P>I think you are making a mistake if you think they can remain friends. My stbx wanted to do the same as she sees him at work. All the time he is telling her he still loves her and wants to marry her. She also felt sorry for him as no one was talking to him because he dumped her.<P>Now she is taking him back and they plan to keep it a secret at work. I hear they were carrying on like a couple 15 yo at work over the summer.<P><BR> I hope you don't think I'm too negative, but I don't want you to be deceived .<P><BR>Best of luck and God Bless.

RWD -- Thanks so much for the concern. As I said, I believe that they <B>could</B> be friends, but I'm not stupid enough to think that this is necessarily the case. But, I have no choice as W's therapist supports her in this. They are the only two dissenting voices in an ocean of "OM's gotta go". So, what can I do except try in the current circumstances?<P>I don't know how you do it, because your stbx is open about it. You know, and that's gotta be so much worse than my situation. <P>It's good to have friends like you that want to make sure I don't get deceived. If there's anything I can do for you, I will try.<P>Strength and peace, my brother....