Well, it's gotten to the point where I don't think I can beat my head on the wall anymore. I asked my betrayer wife, if we could talk today. I had a couple of more questions about our marriage and the last 3-12 months of it. I also had my plan B (hybrid B) letter to give to her today. <P>Basically the discussion came back to .... she never felt any physical desire for me in our marriage. Similar to some of the threads from Maya and Airheart, she may be correct in how she has felt in our marriage. If I had to be honest with myself, I would have to admit I always wondered why the passion/physical aspect had to be so hard for her. She would just not be aroused, would not respond to my attempts at affection ( I now realize, I mostly tried "affection leading to sex" kind though). I am not sure that if I actually met all her needs for affection and conversation, if it would actually make her desire to be more intimate. It's like those passion threads, we all posted about. Guys can have desire (that's what drives most of our attractions), but for women desire is a combination of physical and emotional. My W feels she just never connected when we started, and then during our marriage the conflict of me wanting more physical intimacy and the conflict of her not wanting it, made for more stress. Sorta like a viscious cycle. And we never went for help, (maybe we would have figured out we just weren't meant for each other then). <P>Well, I have been preparing myself to move on and to make changes for myself. I feel positive about what I have learned, and I have learned alot. It can be used in my future, but probably not with my current wife. Sorry to be so down this holiday, but I just figured out it's not really about the OM (yeah her mind is clouded) but the reality of our marriage can not be denied. BTW, her affair will still crash, IMHO, but do we really have something to work on?

Sorry to hear the bad news zizzy.<BR>My stbx has no feelings for me at all either and can't understand why I'm bitter and angry. she told me to just get over it. Talk about cold!<P>She told her friend today she is getting back with om but this time they are not going to let anybody at their work know. She also told her that she's not afraid if it doesn't work out this time with them as she isn't investing any emotion. What a cold fish !!

izzy:<P>Did you give your W the Plan B letter?...<BR>Run with Plan B for a while...<P>Think of it as if Plan A is over...<BR>Plan B gives you the time to slowly "break away" from your W... <B>Don't even think of you W.</B> Make it less painful than a "quick and dramatic" break.<P>I hear your pain...<P>{{{{{{{{{{izzy}}}}}}}}}}<P>Try and have a loving Thanksgiving...<BR>Love yourself most of all!<P>Jim

NSR,<P>Yes, I gave her the letter. Since we have a child I did not feel comfortable giving the do not see/talk to me spiel. I did tell her I needed to pull out and give myself some distance. She asked me how she should act, I told her do what she felt comfortable with and that I would let her know if my boundary was crossed and if I felt uncomfortable. <P>She said she's been okay and on a rollercoaster. Though, I think her rollercoaster is about the natural feelings of impending divorce and all the memories. I don't really think she is still conflicted much about choosing me or the OM. ? Is it good news or bad news, she told me that when she has our child she is not seeing OM, wants to focus on child? I actually did not like her exposing child to OM, but maybe it would create friction or conflict between them if OM was around. Well, I'm still planning on moving on....but yes I will give this Plan B some time before I file for D.

rwd:<P>sorry to hear about your pain with the STBX. You guys had passion in beginning though, right? It just got sidetracked by reality and marriage life. Sorry you guys could not work it out. Isnt the OM married (or is he the one with a fiancee). <P>It unfortunately sounds like the addiction is still there for her, she chooses not to withdraw. What was your timeline? I know you did plan B near the end, how long was that?

izzy,<P>NSR makes a good point in doing PlanB right now, or at least your modified version, you can give yourself some time to diffuse.<P>I do have to wonder about her keeping the child from OM - maybe as you pointed out, she knows in her heart this isn't for the long haul??<P>One last comment - and you know this - you can't trust a whole lot of what is said by your W right now. OK, maybe you 2 haven't had the best affection/sexual closeness. Was it a TOTAL ZERO or just needing some pizazz? If the latter is the case, although right now things look bleak - you never know... if things could work out between you 2 - you would probably be a lot more motivated to learn more to spice up this aspect of your life. Just a thought....<P>Know that we are here thinking about you and wishing you only life's VERY best!!!!!!!!<P>Hugs and care coming via e-waves for you...<P>{{{{{{{{{{izzy}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Roll Me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

roll,<P>thanks for the support. You know I am dying to attempt all the the things I have learned from the Harley books and other books. I know that I was clueless when it came to setting an environment of affection and when it came to do those things that would "arouse" women. <P>My only concern, is my wife feels that I did do those things, she even commended me for staying in the marriage though the sexual conflict was frustrating for me (more than her I guess, until recently). We had both discussed before the affair, the lack of sexual sparks in the beginning, its been a struggle all 6 years. Your a woman right? Is it really black and white, this desire thing? She has said she never felt that even back then. Was it a total ZERO. No, there were times when we actually had some connection (like I told her usually after spending quality 2-3 marathon talks). But those were rare. Sorta like forcing a circle into a square. Yes, you could do it, but should it be that hard to work on. Does any physical intimacy always have to be this, this, and then this. She was never just naturally aroused, unless great efforts were done. She's only 31, so I know it's not age, and lo and behold she could be aroused in one night after mtg OM ... just makes me wonder if the truth is staring me in the face.

izzy,<P>Yes, I am a woman. Let me share a story with you. The H I have now is H#2. I was married 13 years before. Now, when I married my first H, he was my first lover and vice-versa. We had, what I thought, was a good sex life. Well, after we D and I met H#2 - my current H, I will tell you, #1 and I did NOT have that great of a sex life. We were both too inexperienced to know any better! H#2 was alot more skilled and practiced - believe me, a LITTLE sexual knowledge and skill goes a LONG way! There is more than just the act. I am now a "lusty" woman, and I would not have described myself that way before, with H#1. <P>This is why I asked the question - not trying to be nosy, but to see if maybe skills and knowledge can be gotten to improve things. Maybe I an being too personal here, or off-base, and if I am offending you in any way, I apologize. If you guys have had SOME connections, it can happen again. Maybe your W just needed a sexual "awakening" life I did (rats that it happened with OM!)....<P>Roll Me Away

Izzy,<P>I don't think that most women are 'naturally aroused'. Sounds like you've read Harley's stuff, so you're probably aware of the importance of foreplay for women. Now, that doesn't mean just the physical stimulation prior to "having sex". It's the emotional feeling a man gives a woman on a daily basis that they are safe, secure, special & truly treasured by the man. This is what turns women on! This feeling is relayed by a variety of thoughtful actions- giving your W your undivided attention when she talks to you, holding her hand when you are walking, making her feel she is number one in your life, getting her small gifts for no reason, being affectionate in a non-sexual way. Remember back when you were dating. Are you still doing the things that won her heart?

roll and sidney,<P>thanks for your feedback and honesty. Yes, I am now very aware of the emotional needs my wife needed (affection,conversation which leads to sexual fulfillment), and that is what I want to bring into our marriage. I would say I was doing some of the affection and other things, but not enough. I did not focus on her and make her a priority (at least for the last year I feel). It had alot do to with the frustration we both felt (me more than her I think). She had decided to bury those desires and not make them important. She says that is why she was overwhelmed by her "awakening" after the first (accidental date) with the OM. I know that the OM knows his stuff. He is 31/32, single and in my opinion played his cards right. He gave her a steamy music tape within 2-3 wks, he called her, paged her with cryptic messages, and basically did all that romancing/courting stuff. And in bed, I am sure he has learned his skills and knowledge and probably has had some practice. So that is obviously what I am up against. Is he a player? Not sure, he seems to be geniunely interested in her and maybe in love with her also. She of course has eaten all this up, because she had been missing all those emotional desires.<P>What is my story? Honesty, I know I need more practice, I have learned alot lately about what it takes. I have known about foreplay, but not about the whole affectionate environment. Gotta go, will write more soon

izzy,<P>You are such a smart person! You know, NOBODY knows it all - but the WISE man continues to seek and learn. That is all we can do throughout life. Your willingness to learn more is really important to being successful! I hope your W will give you the chance you need to show her your determination to be a better amour.<P>Funny, but I read this in a book at the bookstore I was flipping through on Wednesday: many men are sexual pursuers but emotional distancers. Sounds like the OM is skilled and adept in sexually wooing your wife, but things between them might not be so "connected" once the "newness" wears off. Sexual fulfillment is VERY important to most people. But, what is also important is shared values and goals, sense of family, companionship, shared interests, financial compatibility and many OTHER things, too. I wonder how well this OM will be able to carry the torch in these other important areas of a LASTING relationship????????? I guess the point is that great sex is important, but only ONE dimension of a fulfilling relationship. <P>Talk to you later,<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

roll,<P>continuing my story... I am interested in your story. I have not read many of your past posts, (sorry, I get confused sometimes regarding every posters background.) In your first marriage you thought sex was good, but later found it could be better. You were awakened thru your affair? Did that lead to your divorce? Personally, I have not been with many women and thus I know I am not that experienced. I have had two long-term relationships from the age of 19-31. The first one was basically about sex, but only that teenage physical stuff not the rest. I met my wife when I was 25. I had dated one other women between there, and she really wanted me sexually so I went along. Again, it was just sex to me, not any connection. I did not date her long. So, my wife and I have discussed in the past about my lack on confidence, self-esteem sexually, and to be very honest...because our frequency was 2-3 times a month (after my asking/pleading) it led me to be like a camel to water. I was too quick in all aspects, (you know 5 minutes oral, another 5 minutes act). It was also frustrating because she obviously was not getting into it, and most of the times it was painful for her (especially after our child). Boy, like sidney said the setting up of the whole environment is so important. I understand it now. Though, my wife would probably tell you she felt secure, stable, cared for, safe, and possibly even treasured by me. It's her feelings that she has said were more like love for brother (no hots!!). My theory on her... mixed in with some of her thoughts are that she dated 2 guys before me where the passion was great. One of the them she was with off and on for 5 years due to distance issues thru college. She was really in love with the 5 yr guy, but he would not commit, and all of her friends thought he was no good for her, somewhat of a player. He strung her along at times. The other guy was known as a campus stud, and she got emotionally involved with him (again probably because of good sex). He broke her heart after about 4 months. Then I came along...I was the anti-passion guy. She figured it did not work the other way, all the hurt she did not want, so if she had the great friendship, companionship, compatibility, and supernice guy that it would be okay. She did not make passion a priority. We lived together for almost 2 yrs before we got married. The physical was a struggle from the beginning, we both thought our religious guilt was holding us back and I hoped marriage would take care of the guilt. Well, I thought it was getting better about 5 months after our marriage, then we got pregnant and our lives changed again. Just the other day we discussed how, we always seemed to have something else to focus on to not deal with the sexual issue. Not until about the last year when she felt the frustration and desire to have that sexuality building did she focus on what was missing . That's why I know she was vulnerable, and I was clueless in how to deal with it. <P>Thanks for that insight from the book you were reading. I am not sure though, he seems to really want to connect with her. I read in the Private Lies book, that single men pursuers of married women are emotional beggars. So maybe he's just desperate to have someone love him, and he's learned how to get that. But you may be right, that once the newness wears off and reality hits, he may be history. One of our mutual friends told me the OM has dated a married woman before (not sure if she was separated or still with H at the time though).<P>Actually I wonder if her sexual awakening would make it easier for her to feel that way<BR>when her affair crashes and after withdrawal. Maybe it would make her lusty also. Just a thought. I know it takes two to communicate sexually, and I just feel like we never took the time or frequency to get in synch with each other. Shoot by my count in almost four years of marriage, I would bet we had sex under 100 times. That includes a yr off for pregnancy. But, if its so natural with the OM, I'm sure it's hard to wonder how to leave that and go back to a marriage. Even if I have told her we go back to rebuild and not to the way it was.<BR>Thanks for listening, I am interested in your story about your affair. <P>Sidney,<P>You were right, no I stopped doing the courting things. I know its so important to always stay in that mode. The first time though I am not sure I won her heart, maybe just her mind, and definitely not her passion. Still left wondering.... I am just feeling like it's time to move on... I feel I deserve to have someone feel about me the way some of the betrayed women on this board feel about their blind husbands.

Izzy, all other "betrayed" people,<P>I don't think you can believe anything your stbx says right now. An affair can often be just a "large" sign of an even "larger" abuse problem. Anything she can think of right now to make you feel bad she will say. Most of it is false or grossly exaggerated to prove her point.<P>I really don't know if or how much of this applies to you, but I find a lot of "betrayed" people on this site have heard some of the statements below. I personally heard every single one of them.<P>These are some statements I have noticed are quite common from "leavers". I have eventually come to see them as very abusive, even though they seemed rational at the time. (Abuse always does. That's what makes it different than anger. You can be angry without having to "win", and perhaps you need some "anger management training". But you can't need to "win" without being abusive, even if you don't act angry.) <P>I don't know if I love you the way a H/W should love his/her W/H.<BR>I'm not attracted to you anymore.<BR>I was never really in love with you.<BR>I only married you because I lacked self esteem.<BR>I did everything in this relationship.<BR>I'm tired of doing 100% in this relationship.<BR>I did 100% in this relationship, you did nothing!<BR>You didn't do enough to meet my needs.<BR>I put up with so much from you over the years. I have had it.<BR>You should have done more for me. I found someone else who can.<BR>There is more to life than this.<BR>Life is too short for me to stay married to you.<BR>There are men/women out there who treat their partners better than you do. (Oh ya? Do you have a survey on that? Why are they single?)<BR>I'm entitled to be happy. I need to be away from you to do it.<BR>You'll find somebody else who is better suited to you. (Which I always took to mean "More at your low level, I personally am too good for you.)<BR>It's not about whether or not I'm seeing someone else. It's about how awful this relationship has been for me.<BR>I just feel that our (meaning the new) relationship was meant to be.<BR>It's too late.<BR>I don't need counseling. You are the one who has the problem.<BR>I'll go so the counselor can better understand your problems.<BR>You are abusive. (This one is the best. It is not easy to determine this from within the relationship, so if someone is calling you abusive, a counselor needs to verify it.)<BR>Etc., etc. The list goes on.<P>In any case, if the statement puts you in a situation where you "loose", without any possibility of a "win-win" negotiated solution, it is abuse. If the statement invalidates your point of view and minimizes you, it is abuse. If your spouse is exonerating themselves and exemplifying there own role in the relationship, while vilifying you and minimizing your contributions to the relationship, it is abuse. If your spouse brings up old, dead issues every time you have a current concern, to prove that you have no business raising the issue, it is abuse. If a person blames you for their unhappiness and/or expects you to make them happy, it is abuse.<P>Two people can be very angry and yell and scream and carry on, and you don't necessarily have an abusive situation. So long as it's tit for tat, and a win-win solution is negotiated, it's just poor problem resolution skills. This hypothetical couple needs counseling to find better ways to deal with issues, but that's about it. But when one person must win, which by necessity means one person must loose, you have a problem.<P>Interestingly it's the abusive person that usually seems calm and rational to the outside world, where as the "abused" person is usually found screaming like a jerk, phoning all the relatives to tell them about their "lying, cheating, dirty H/W", and generally acting like a fool. On the outside, the anger looks like the problem, and everyone goes "that poor person, no wonder they had an affair. I'd leave the jerk too." But that is exactly what the abuser wants and sets about to accomplish in the first place. In reality the betrayed has some pretty damn good reasons to be mad, and our sympathies should be with them.<P>If you are in this situation, let them go. This is nothing that can be fixed in 6 months. It will take years to heal the childhood wounds that cause this sort of behavior, and they can't even start so long as you are willing to pick them up as soon as they fall.<P>A quick rule of thumb I use is: the last person to arrive at the counselor's to work on their own problems is probably the instigator. It is similar to the psychology "phrase" that goes "the first one in to your office is not usually the one that needs your help."<P>Anyway, don't use any of this against your spouse, whether or not it seems to fit. They have to find their own way back to rationality. It's good to keep in mind that we abused them in our own way too, and nobody is every blameless in these situations.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.drirene.com" TARGET=_blank>www.drirene.com</A> is a good place to get the full, unbutchered version. I usually make lots of mistakes interpreting this kind of stuff. It probably comes from my own tendency to see things in a light that works well for me. But hey, I don't know anybody who doesn't do that.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited November 26, 1999).]

Hi Izzy,<P>Sorry to hear how you are feeling and the stuff you are going through.<P>Two suggested readings. One thread started by Chris is located in the infidelity archives regarding the standard phrases that the betrayer uses. I was amazed how many that I heard from Val. Aparently "they" must get a handbook upon entering an affair spelling out how to act and what to say. I am not looking down on the betrayers as I was one in my first marriage. I did not use any of the phrases outlined because my W at the time would not speak to me.<P>Second one that I started "Everything you know is wrong". This is just for your personal edification and should not be considered a recommendation by me. I am however going to procede with the plans as presented by Karmagrrl and RMA. I do not have children with the present W and at this point have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I trust their female instincts and suggestions. We are planning to meet tomorrow afternoon. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm at my wits end and it's a short rope.<P>Take care Izzy, God Bless, <P>------------------<BR>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P><BR>

This is, by far, the most insightful thread I've ever read. I'm sure, Izzy, that it wasn't your intent... but, dammed if I didn't learn some things that I've never realized. <P>Izzy, I'm sorry for your pain. I can't imagine feeling that there was <B>never</B> passion. My H and I, although we know both sides of this thing (betrayed and betrayer) were <B>very, very passionate</B> for a long time. It hurts when the feelings leave, of course, but we did have it, and it was wonderful.<P>Again, I know how at times it seems that all is lost. The only consistant thing about recovery is its inconsistancy... tomorrow may bring something you never expected. <P>Best wishes...<BR>

medic,<P>I am going to look for that thread. BTW, I know all the standard phrases used by betrayers and I know my wife is using some of them. But...how long are we actually suppossed to put up with this. I am losing my own self-respect, feel like a doormat, and yeah she's having all the fun and great sex. You know that's probably what sickens me the most. She's getting what I could never give her..intimacy and great sex.<P>That's why I feel very ill and unsure about what to do. I know she's doing betrayer speak, but I also know she and I had discussed our issue before the affair was even an issue. We both realized she did not have those sparks, and we never went to a sex therapist to figure out if it could be resolved. So do I believe she will want to come back after her affair crashes? Probably not. Her affair will crash, but my goodness I am betting on 12-24 mths instead of the 4-8 mths others have talked about. I personally will not wait longer than one year. I think anyone that has a relationship longer than a year gets too involved, has formed some kind of bond, and will she really be the same person when and if she wants to come back. Will my feelings still be strong enough to forgive, get past the resentment, to try to compete sexually with the past OM, and so on? You see that's how I feel. The break has to happen like within the next 2-3 mths and then there is withdrawal....It just seems like we the betrayed deserve better and I think there is better out there (better meaning someone that won't trample our hearts, lie to our faces, out and out not respect us or care enough to not get involved in the first place, and to continue to lie about it even when we know). I just gave my wife my hybrid plan B letter a couple of days ago, and yesterday she seemed a little angry I cut off some of the funds. We agreed to talk next week. How much does the betrayed actually have to put up with. I stayed in the house, so I'm paying that. I have the older car (mine before marriage, no pmt on it), and she has the newer van. We have joint sharing situation with child. So she expected I would continue to pay for the van $500, and $375 for childcare. Let's see childcare is only $400 a month and I see my van (not use it), like twice a month. So no I don't think I should even be paying for HER van, but as of now I agreed to pay half of van and $250 for childcare. She even said "Well, I'm not sure what I should be getting but I probably should check with a lawyer". Yeah, I'm suppossed to be financially strapped, while she gets half time off from child responsibilities so she can spend her nights at OM apartment and ....well enough ramblin. I'm just tired of what we have to put with. Thanks for lettin me vent, I actually got angry, I rarely have been thru this.<P>Nonplused, <BR>You lost me a little, but my marriage was not about abuse I don't think. There was no anger on my part or much on hers (part of the problem she says, not enough passion to get angry). I tried to link but my AOL browser said wrong address?

Izzy my friend,<P>I think you could give your W intimacy and yes even great sex. Who said you couldn't? I have learned alot here in the last 8 months. I was, repeat WAS a rotten H. That is not the case anymore. I certainly hope to be reunited with my beautiful Val, but, I am also prepared to move on without her. I certainly know about losing your self respect, been there. This has been the worst 8 months of my life.<P>Tomorrow at 14:30 the axe falls. Medic is no longer the doormat and will not be waiting in the wings. I know some don't approve of me seeing a "friend" but we had the greatest time tonight just watching "Spaceballs". My son was in the room having fun with us. If he wasn't there, yes, being unchaperoned we would still have kept out clothes on and had fun. I am still legally and morally married to Val. I screwed up once, not again.<P>I'm with ya when you think about what "they" could be doing. It just eats you up from the inside out. This is not healthy. I can not do anything about it, so I don't concern myself with it anymore.<P>And yes, I have also said that finding someone else with a clean slate would be so much easier. Would you be able to do that? If you would ask me right now I would say yes! Some might say that I am in a fog now. I have known Michele [XGF] for 13 years or so and would still like nothing more than to reconsile with Val. No fog here. I just felt the need for female companionship. I'm not screwing her and don't find the need too. <P>Never say never. Stay strong on Plan B. God I know it's rough. It certainly sucks that the betrayed have to walk on eggshells. I don't know about you, but, for me I really had the best W I could imagine and I f#cked up. Now I'm paying for my neglect. Not saying you are to blame in your marriage.<P>Plan for you meeting now. I rehearsed my speach many time over as to avoid LBs. Vent as much as you would like. That's what wer'e here for.<P>Take care my friend, God Bless. <P>------------------<BR>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P><BR>

Izzy:<P>Insightful thread indeed! <P>H and I have a similar problem except he did the affair(s). We recently completed Harley's questionairre and H was surprised that our frequency of sex needs were the same because that has not been the case. I explained to him that I desire sex but I need the "package" also. <P>H also did the affection leading to sexual fulfillment...big difference for me. I have told him that when he always approaches me that way, it makes me feel merely functional or practical. Not a living being with thoughts, feelings, emotions that I need and want to share with him.<P>I got a kick out of your reference to the "marathon" conversations . H feels the same way...and I'll admit that it is true. For me, I have told him that if H would make me a priority and give me his undivided attention, we would not need these marathons. Because he dismisses me when he is not interested, what could have been discussed/shared in 20 minutes requires a 5-part conversation w/my H w/each part needing additional time because I've built up some additional sub-issue because of the dismissals. OR, like your camel to water reference, when I finally get his attention, I just unload. <P>Sydney's post about thoughtful actions necessary to make W feel safe, secure, special, etc. is dead on for me. We returned from vacation a few weeks ago. That vacation was the first time in a long time that we (me and kids) had his full attention and focus. No cell phones, voice mail, friends, activities, etc. I started to feel that "connection" w/him again. When we returned, H went right back to his routine and, as a result, my walls went right back up. (Who mentioned the viscious cycle?)<P>H refuses counseling. Doesn't think it will help. Last one to the psychiatrists office.... I've gone alone.<P>Also, I read a thread here awhile back stating that some large (approx. 75%) of women ONLY achieve orgasm through oral sex. Gee, I thought it was just me. H and I have worked that out now but was a big problem that neither of us was aware of. (He didn't know I wasn't and I didn't know I couldn't)<P>Do you have something left to work on? I think so. Techniques, etc. can be adjusted. The connection is more difficult, especially w/an OP in the picture. I'm so starved right now, it would only take the 2-3 hr marathon conversation , but w/your wife and an OM lurking, it may take more, alot more. If you are ready for plan B, the timing may not be good for such plan A type efforts.<P>I'm teetering on the walk-away wife path myself. If I left and H asked me what he could do to get me back I would say...be my friend. The friend that I could reach out to at any time of the day or night; the friend that knows, I need a friend; the friend that hurts when I hurt and laughs when I laugh; the friend that cares when no one else cares. <P>His friendship would tear my walls down. Can that work for you?<P>God Bless Izzy. My prayers are with you.<P>Enlightened

medic and enlightened, <P>thanks for your feedback. Medic, I am with you it's time for me to be a standup, I can live without you kinda guy. You know, I have already realized that I can live without her. I don't need her, but I want to be her husband, best friend, and lover. I guess that's love, but not obsessive love. <P>enlightened, you know I agree with the oral part for women. I even told my wife on a few occasions, lets spend all the upcoming time on just you. Well, maybe I was bad but even like after 10 minutes she could not get into it. Maybe physically, but not emotionally. Sorta like those fake women on the porn videos. <P>One other question for all of you? I just remembered last night about something I've wondered. Early in our relationship this happened quite a bit, and lately in our marriage it happened every once in awhile. During the middle of the night, me half asleep and her asleep, my hands would start to wander on her body and I would do the whole foreplay thing (skin, arms, breasts and then midsection). Mind you when it started I was half asleep, and she was asleep and woke up maybe half way thru when she was totally aroused. It all took maybe 10 minutes and she definitely had an O. Then we would fall back asleep. Would she remember it? She said she did, but almost felt guilty or maybe violated because she did not say 'yes". Who knows? she never said otherwise. So whats up with that? Maybe it was her way of enjoying just physical sex, maybe she was dreaming/fantasing it was someone else, or what? Maybe her buried desire, I could only reach in her sleep, go figure. Is this normal? I know other couples wakeup in the middle of the night and attack each other, but usually I did it for her and did not expect anything back. Well, just looking for more feedback.<P>Enlightened, I'm sorry it sounds like your H is missing meeting some of those needs that are important. Hope he wakes up soon. My wife will probably stay asleep, until I am gone and moved on.

You know izzy and Medic, I am trying to get to the same place that the two of you are:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have already realized that I can live without her. I don't need her, but I want to be her husband, best friend, and lover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is where I want to be, but I'm not quite there yet. I am coming to believe that I have an addiction to my marriage to W that could be similar to the addiction betrayers have to OP.<P>In one of my threads <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009585.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009585.html</A> , Sheba said something in a response that struck a nerve with me: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But it is fact, that we have to do some work here because we are not "addicted" to anything other than our marriages.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am wondering if it is the addiction that keeps me hanging on when W is totally driving the conclusion of this little show. The love I feel for her has be wanting to let her go and this is conflict with some of my actions that are designed to keep us together.<P>Maybe I should start a discussion thread on addiction to marriage.<P>W doesn't seem to <B>want</B> to let me fulfill her needs. She seems happy to do without or let OM do it for her. Maybe it's time to let him have the full-time job.<P>Anyway, Medic and izzy, both of you are strong and squared away like I hope to be soon. <P>