Andy,<P>Happy Thaksgiving to you and your wife! How are you both doing? I hope well. We are hanging in there, I haven't seen any posts from you lately, but hope you are both OK.<P>I do have some questions for you if you are around.<P>Thank you, Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Hi Jenn,<P>I was just checking the forum before going to bed. I've come down with a cold this fine holiday, so I'm wore down!<P>We had a very nice Thanksgiving. My brother and sister and their families came over and we all ate tons of food.<P>We seem to be doing well. As well as can be expected I guess. I'm still not past the "very-good-friend" feelings for my wife. But we are getting along very well. It's a positive thing.<P>If you have any questions for me, I'm all ears... I'll help however I can. I'll be pretty busy during the weekend, but I'll try to check the forum every once in a while.<P>see ya,<BR>--andy

Andy,<P>I asked you quite some time ago if you had had an chance to read Dr. Frank Pittman's book "PRIVATE LIES" and you did not respond. I believe it would give you a ton of insight.<BR>Any thoughts?

Sorry dj, I guess I missed that post. I have not read Private Lies yet. I've seen passages of it posted on the forum, and it does sound interesting. I just haven't gotten around to picking it up yet. I guess I feel a little "booked" out at the moment... <P>--andy

dj,<P>What is the book "Private Lies" about? I am curious because I've seen several people refer to it but am not familiar with it if you could give me some insight. Thanks.<P>Andy,<P>I hope it felt good to have a houseful over for turkey day. We did too, and Matt enjoyed the cooking and playing bartender. When he keeps busy I think it helps keep his spirits up (as up as they can be!)<P>I'm taking the approach now of trying to approach things more logically and objectively when possible. As a result we seem to be able to communicate better and I can listen more to the turmoil he's experiencing without getting as emotional. Of course, he picks and chooses what we discuss and leaves out the hurtful stuff. He's been keeping a log and we review it together, editing out intimate details that I probably don't want to hear. I think he appreciates this, and is appreciating my efforts more and sees me as a better friend.<P>He is now being completely honest and has told me all except details that I can't hear. He says it feels good to get it all out. Nothing more to hide now.<P>He is becoming more frustrated with the fact that his feelings haven't changed and that so many thoughts of her still pop into his head. I tell him we have to give it more time. The counselor is starting to work with him on loss and grief issues so I hope this helps too. Do you think you can hold on to feelings that strong even without contact indefintely? He says it's so hard because there is no finality. He wrote her a letter in August and she emailed back when they ended it to not pursue anything further. She told him she'd wait for him another 20 years if that's what it took, and I'm sure he thinks of that. Any clues? Is this like your situation at all? I'm still determined and patient, although it is up and down, but I have made many plans in case he leaves and that is a relief for me.<P>How is your wife coping through all of this? She must be a very strong, determined woman herself. Give her a HUG!!!<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Hey Andy,<P>Just brought this back to the top in case you get a chance to check in. Enjoy the weekend.<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Andy or dj,<P>Just wondering about the book Private Lies and what it's all about?<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Hi Jenn,<P>Sorry I didn't reply before now... busy busy holiday weekend! But we got a lot of x-mas shopping done!<P>The book "Private Lies", from what I've been able to gather, deals with affairs from a betrayers point of view, but give a good healthy shot of reality to the whole thing. There was a really powerful passage from it posted on the forum a while back by mickey65... I'll see if I can find it and bring it to the top for you.<P>Your husband's situation is similar to mine in a few areas. The first thing is that he is frustrated that he isn't getting feelings back for you. I'm the same way. A few weeks ago, my frustration was very high. I'm less frustrated now, cuz it's finally gotten into my head that I have to give myself alot of time. I still have alot of thoughts of the OW, and I realize that until she's completely out, I won't get any feelings for my wife back. It's a slow process. But I'm not so frustrated like I was.<P>The other thing that your husband and I have in common is that the OW said she'd wait. My OW never actually said it that way, but she had this idea of a "10 year plan"... in other words, in ten years we'd be free of our current relationships and then be together. Very kooky idea... But I do think about that sometimes. I try not to, as I'm sure your husband tries not to... but it's inevitable that he will. All I can say is - the thoughts fade with time.<P>take care, and sorry again for not replying sooner...<BR>--andy

Jennifer,<P>Go here for info on Private Lies:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393307077/0021/103-5612541-8645433" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393307077/0021/103-5612541-8645433</A> <P>It'll tell you all about and have online ordering info, if you want it!

Andy,<P>I'm still wondering about your thoughts on if feelings for the OW can be maintained without contact for an indefinite amount of time. My husband says that thoughts of her pop into his mind probably 50 times a day out of the blue. I know most of his log is about her still and the wonderful times they shared.<P>Does this ring a bell with you? He doesn't see it as an obsession, because that's an "unhealthy" thought but rather such a strong connection and love. Sometimes I do just feel like I should step out of the way. So frustrating. But he says he still wants to try, he can't give more of a commitment than that, but wants to try. For how long? Who knows. It gets more difficult for me to perservere, but I'm determined to not give up now because I WANT HIM!!!!<P>How crazy am I? I do wonder. Please share your thoughts with me, Andy. Thanks<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Jenn,<P>Indefinitely? No. For a really really long time? Yeah.<P>I'm not sure what to tell you. It <B>is</B> an obsession in a way. Because it's an addiction. I know your husband doesn't want to think of her in that way. I don't like thinking of my OW in that way either (I don't even like calling her "OW"!). But hey, I have to face up to the facts that I'm freakin' <B>addicted</B>! And so does your husband. Yes, the feelings he has for her is a deep connection and love. So what? So was mine. Ask any other betrayer on this forum! So was theirs! Your husband has got to realize that he's not unique. His love for the OW isn't some magical thing that no-one else has or can understand. I know exactly how he feels! Believe me. I wish I could directly talk to him.<P>Anyway, the point is, he has to realize that in order to really <I>try</I> with you, he has to FORGET about those special feelings. It won't work any other way. I was never able to give my wife any other commitment other than that I would "just try" too. I think those were my exact words. But he's still holding on to the OW. Part of his trying has to be letting go.<P>BTW, did you see the post from mickey65 about Private Lies that I brought to the top for you?<P>--andy

Just noticed your question about "Private Lies". I read it several times, but the following is the real meat of the book:<P>He writes about the chances that your affair will lead to marriage is about 12%, and of those 12%,,, 75% will divorce.. leaving about 3% chance that your marriage to op will succeed (and who knows if will be a happy one even if you dont divorce).. Pittman also states that the successful marriages to op usually left their marriage to an alcoholic, abusive, drug addiction or just a horrific terrible spouse.. Anyhow her goes.. Its long, but worth it..<BR>THE DEFECTS OF ROMANTIC 2ND MARRIAGES TO OP:<P>1) THE INTERVENTION OF REALITY:<BR>Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During the affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic no one ever got around to asking if it was sane.<P>2) GUILT:<BR>People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about something an are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for thei misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the reluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blithely, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.<P>3) DISPARITY OF SACRIFICE;<BR>Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the finacial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone, after losing that mush, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted shurvivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner fo the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partne who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.<P>4) EXPECTAIONS;<BR>Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likely to find now is the ordinariness of real life... The dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.<P>5) GENERAL DISTRUST OF MARRIAGE:<BR>Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likley to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affairs. People who distrust marriage have a hard time being in one.<P>6) DISTRUST OF AFFAIREE;<BR>It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or event ot marry them, but not quite appropriate to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and people who feel guilty about having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.<P>7_ DIVIDED LOYALTIES:<BR>During the affair and the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses that are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempted to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand fo their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renogotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.<P>8) THE NATURE OF INFIDELS:<BR>People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affari partner are romantics that drift hypnotically through this romantic hight without taking much responsibilty. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of the unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.<P>9) NATURE OF AFFAIREES: <BR>Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, just as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in a position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and thye demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.<P>10) ROMANCE..<BR>People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics fo relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have already demonstrated that they would rather get divorced thatn learn the physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern,<P>11) SCAPEGOATING OF CUCKOLDS..<BR>During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betraysl of the resue fantasies that fed the romance.<P>12) UNSHARED HISTORY;<BR>Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages to op: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity to relationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage ot 2, the history of the relationshop is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrarsing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, save manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilty. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally proud of their new marriage...<P>Hope this helps.<P>Hi Andy.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by freedom (edited November 28, 1999).]

Andy and freedom,<P>Thanks for your responses. I'll see if my husband is willing to discuss this. I certainly don't want to force info. on him, because I do know the situation has meant alot to him, but at the expense of me unfortunately.<P>I'm just trying so very hard to understand his frame of mind. It may lead to me leaving or distancing, but at least hopefully I'll come out of it his friend, which often times now I'm not sure I'm even that to him. And I am a really good friend to my friends. But they do have to show some loyalty to me.<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>