My four youngest kids are at the sl*** house this weekend. I asked my son to call so I could say good night to them, especially the toddler. THey purposely put her to bed an hour and an half earlier than she is supposed to go to bed just so I couldn't talk to her. I don't know how they got her to sleep. I don't let her cry herself to sleep. I am afraid she has gotten herself into trouble and has suffocated but she wouldn't let my son go into check-just listen at the door. She is in a bed and she would have gotten out if she wasn't sleepy. She never goes to sleep anywhere near that early. What does she want to prove-that she is a better mother or something? I don't want her going to bed that early-I want her to stay up later so she will sleep later so I will have time with each of the kids. She has no right to change the way I raise my kids. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 22, 1999).]

hi nellie, just me again, so hope you don't mind. They are your kids...this is plain and simple. Can you stop, take a deep breathe and really look at this as an opportunity?<BR>Each thing that happens can bring a chance for change. Make the choice to have the change be good.<BR>Your kids are at the sluts house. That is a fact, cannot really change that since they need to see dad. So, what can you change to make this whole thing easier and the best possible outcome?<BR>YOu cannot change what your h does, and I do think he likely takes good care of the kids. If he does not, you need to legally forbid him from seeing the children. If he does, then the time he has with the kids is theirs. A fact you will have to accept. <BR>Work on what you can change, do not focus on what you perceive that you have lost. <BR>You have the night to yourself, which is pretty tough to come by when you have kids. Do something you want to do!! Read, talk on the phone, the computer, go to a movie, visit with friends. I could not visit with friends when I was first healing-I went into hermit mode bigtime. I realized I was sinkinf emotionally and grabbed at the chance to heal. I forced myself to listen to new music, read, meditate, and start doing yoga again. I exercised whenever the kids were out of the house or busy. It did wonders for me. <BR>Nellie, please take a few minutes to focus on where your head is, where you want to be. You are lost right now, but let us help you find the way. You really are going to be fine. <BR>Dig deep, find what you need, feel what you need, and work toward healing yourself. You are such a fine caring person, and you deserve to find your happiness. If you will take this time to look into your heart, you will find it.<BR>It is hard when you have spent so many years caring for h and kids. We tend to lose ourselves. We need to find ourselves again, and this is the perfect opportunity for you to do that. <BR>For instance, I have always adored bonsai, but never looked into it. No time, no money, kids, h, other professional duties, work, etc. As many excuses as one could find. Finally I decided that while h was gone, I was going to use the time to improve myself, to reach into my heart and do things I wanted but had put aside for yrs. I took a saturday class in bonsai which was wonderful. It was only 4 saturdays!! Now tell me I never had time for that before?! I did, but always found a way to put someone else's needs first. I work with my trees almost daily, and it brings me such peace. It is lovely-and something I always wanted to learn!! <BR>I am sure there is something you have put on hold. Want to write poetry? Go for it!! Cook gourmet meals? Go for it!! <BR>Nellie, use this time constructively. Make good choices for your future and that of your children. You can control that, but not what they do at H's on the weekend!!<BR>(((hugs)))<BR>

Nellie-<BR>I feel so bad for you right now. I can't even imagine what you are going through. I know exctly what you mean about losing your kids. They are YOUR kids. You are THEIR mom. No one can EVER take that away from you. I wish that I could be there for you right now. I can hear the pain in your voice. I know it's hard right now, but lean on God, He feels your pain, Nellie. He wants to help you.<BR>Pray that your kids are having a lousy time and they never want to do this again. You will be ok, your kids will be ok. They love YOU, don't forget that. Give them a kiss in your dreams.<BR>Hugs and Love,<BR>cc

cl,<BR>No, he does not take good care of the kids. He lets her take care of them. When they visit during the day, the older kids say he pays virtually no attention to them. But there is nothing legally I can do - he doesn't leave them in an empty house or anything clearly neglectful. <P>ceecee,<BR>Yes, I wish they didn't want to go over there but she has nintendo and that is a big draw for the older kids, and she puts a lot of effort into entertaining the six year old. I was hoping that they would regret having the baby there, since she doesn't go to sleep till late, but apparently she is magical. Everyone says she will get tired of the kids but apaarently she has infinite patience too. <P>I DIDNT HAVE KIDS SO SOME STRANGER COULD DECIDE HOW THEY SHOULD BE RAISED!!!!!!!! THIS IS NOT RIGHT AND I WILL NOT LET IT HAPPEN. SHE HAS NO RIGHT TO HAVE ANY INPUT WHATSOEVER INTO HOW THEY ARE RAISED. I know that he is not making the decisions, because he hasn't made a childrearing decision in years. If I ask for advice he always says he doesn't know. <P>I breastfed them until they were toddlers, I never let them cry themselves to sleep, some of them never set foot in a crib, they are not allowed to have nintendo, they do not have tvs or computers in their rooms, and she is completely changing their whole livestyle while they are there. If an Amish child's father deserted his mother and went to live with a non-Amish yuppie would the court let the father take the child overnight into her home? Well, knowing how screwed up the judicial system is, I suppose it is possible, but I feel just as strongly about this. I wish we had stayed in the Amish neighborhood where we used to live.

Nellie1, I understand how you feel about your children. You've made choices because you thought it was the right way to raise your children, and now somone else is changing that. Some people think "what's the big deal," as long as the kids are fed and basically cared for. But it's not enough, definitely not for YOUR children. I hate that it's like this for you. <BR>I breastfeed both of my girls (3yrs and 4mos). They sleep with me. I respond to their needs in a way that most people I know wouldn't. I don't care to leave my 3yr old with my family because I don't think they treat her with respect. I'm fortunate that my H is very dedicated to our children and how we've been raising them. He won't let anyone else take care of them.<P>I can't imagine why the OW is doing this with your kids. Is she trying to be the perfect mom? Well, there's no way she can compete with you in your kids eyes. Is there a way to politely co-parent by bringing up certain "house rules" that you would like them to maintain for consistency sake? <P>Lizbeth

Lizbeth,<BR>I am glad that someone does understand that it is a big deal. My H has always also seemed dedicated to the way we are raising our kids. Two or three years ago I think he became seriously depressed and about that time stopped participating much in raising them, but he certainly never indicated that he wanted me to stop raising them that way.<P>Yes, I think she is trying to be the perfect mom. I know my seven year old has had temper tantrums at her house and told her she hates her, but according to the other kids the OW remained calm. Of course I have never gotten mad at anyone else's kids either, or at least if I did I hid it well. My daughter is definitely a "spirited" child, and even my best friend told me the other day that she didn't know how I did it. <P>I do not dare ask him to do anything differently, because if he thinks I am criticizing anything to do with his relationship with the OW, he will do the exact opposite of what I ask. A long time ago I asked him if he could spend time with the seven year old, instead of allowing her to go places with the OW, and the very next week he ignored my request.<P>I woke up in the middle of the night and reached over to check the 3 year old and she wasn't there, of course, and it took me about an hour to go back to sleep. I miss all the kids of course but I feel like a piece of me is gone when she is not here at night. We have never left her with anybody except her older siblings. Now I wish she were not weaned because I'm sure he wouldn't want overnight visitation if she weren't.

Nellie1,<P>I'm so sorry that your very life's blood is tied to such scummy acting adults. Keep a detailed diary of everything. Names, dates, any proof of irresponsible behavior with your children.<P>If you end up divorcing, these records could prove vital in gaining custody of all of your children and severely limiting visitation rights. If you are suspicious of your children being given alcohol or drugs to sedate them, consider having tests done to detect their presense in the bloodstream.<BR>This could solve your biggest problems and worries overnight.<BR>

Cuckold,<BR>No, I doubt that they would give her alcohol or sedatives - my H doesn't drink, or at least he didn't as of 5 months ago. They probably wouldn't do anything that the courts would consider risky to their physical well-being, but they are certainly damaging their emotional health. <P>I don't want to limit my H's visitation rights - I want him to be able to see them; but I don't want her taking care of them and making decisions about how they should be raised that are contrary to the way we have been raising them. When we first separated he often stayed here overnight while I left, and I didn't have a problem with the way he cared for them.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 22, 1999).]

It scares me that my H will probably lose touch with how we are raising our children as time passes. His friends and coworkers don't understand how we raise our children, and they've advised him to start spanking our 3yr old (that's not something that we do). He's okay right now, but when I moved the girls back last month it was an adjustment for him to be around them. It had been almost two months since he'd seen them. Our 3 yr old is "spirited" and he just couldn't handle her. It's scary to think about the future.<P>The truth is, our children's emotional health is just not an issue that is addressed by divorce and separation. There are no laws that protect children from being treated disrespectfully, insensitivley, even cruelly. There are no laws that demand that our children's emotional needs be met. Others may disagree with what I am saying, but they don't view a child's needs the same way that I do. As a matter of fact, many courts would probably determine that your kids need a healthy de-tachment from you, you're too "clingy." <P>I hope I'm not being an alarmist. Take a good look at what your children's needs are right now, and concentrate on meeting those as best as you can. I would definitely find out how your 3yr old was put to bed, I believe that some states are beginning to consider the "cry it out" method child abuse. At least she was with her siblings before she went to bed. By the way, how long has it been since she last nursed? It can be quite a while before your milk completely dries up, even though it seems like it's gone. Maybe reestablishing your nursing relationship would help?<P>I wish I had some advice on how to coparent with strangers, but I have no idea how to handle that one!<P>Lizbeth

hi nellie, just checking in to see how you are today. <BR>I absolutely agree that you have the right to raise your children as you see best. And it appears you have done a marvelous job. Your kids will see that, but give them time. They will respect you for the way you have raised them, for giving them values and morals, but give them time. <BR>I know it is a terrible thing that the ow has your children at her house. What can be done about this? If there are ways to change it, do so!! If you can get h back into being with the kids at your house, do it! Maybe you could make a deal with him? One weekend at your house (you leave), and the next he can take them somewhere? Or maybe just days with h, but no overnighters? <BR>It all gets pretty complicated, and is not something we ever wanted to deal with. But here we are. Try to make compromises with h on things are are less important to you, then you will have more leverage on the things that mean a lot. <BR>I have little faith in the court system when it comes to making decisions that will effect children/families. Seems they rarely do what is right for the children. <BR>(((hugs)))

Lizbeth,<BR>I am sure my 9 year old daughter will tell me how the 3 year old was put to bed. Neither she nor my son wanted their father to take the 3 year old because they think she is too young. My nine year old, who is usually very unassertive, told me I shouldn't let him until when and if I am forced to by court order. My 13 year old offered to ask his father not to take her, but I didn't want to put him in that position.<P>It's been over a year since she stopped nursing - I am sure that relactation is possible, but it probably wouldn't be worth it at this point. <P>cl,<BR>He started out staying here overnight, but decided it was "inappropriate" a couple of weeks after he filed. Up until this weekend, he has been just seeing them during the day, but a couple of weeks ago he informed them that he was going to have them start staying over. He didn't bother telling me that he had told them that until the next day. He also told them how he was going to deal with a number of other issues without talking to me first. It is not that I would necessarily object - for instance he told them they would be home for Christmas and he would celebrate it with them before or after - but apparently he thinks I have no right to have any input or even knowledge of his plans. Yet he asks for my approval on much more minor things, like whether it is ok if he buys them a certain Disney video. He has not always been controlling.<P>

HI nellie,<BR>He decided it was inapproriate to stay at your house? Huh? Maybe I am half crazy, but who/what is inappropriate is certainly open for discussion!! <BR>Maybe he is not being controlling, but is being evasive? He makes the plans then informs the kids so he will not have to engage in discussion with you? <BR>Maybe you could take a more proactive stance here? You said you were amish, which is culturally different than mainstream america. Would it be in your kids best interests not to be exposed overnight to the OW? I think it would be. You need some sort of professional to validate this for you. There must be a way to get a psychologist to see your kids in this light-to verify and document that it would be damaging to their development at this stage. Is there a psychologist within your amish group that would help you with this? An elder that would be considered a professional in the court's eyes? <BR>Nellie, what plan are you in? A or B? If it is a, and you are trying to do no lovebusters, then this documentation maybe seen as a lovebuster. But you need to keep your own values intact, and your children's welfare comes first!! <BR>Your h's ow sounds like a parahna.

cl,<BR>Probably it wasn't clear from my post, but I thought I said we lived in an Amish neighborhood - I am not Amish, which is a good thing because one of their major beliefs is that it is wrong to be linked to the outside world, and the internet certainly does that!<P>I am in Plan A, not that it has done any good. The therapist that my H and I were seeing told us in June that it was way too soon for the kids to sleep at the OW's house. My H found a child psychiatrist who told him that since the kids already knew about the OW, it was ok to see more of her, whatever that meant. Even that psychiatrist apparently told him he shouldn't have introduced them 6 weeks after he left. I suppose I could try to find another child psychiatrist who would nix the overnights. The general consensus in this state seems to be that you are not really married anymore as soon as you are separated, and since this state does not recognize legal separation, I guess if you don't want to be married all you have to do is walk out the door.

Well, they're back. My seven year old said that the three year old fell asleep after she got tired of crying (as I feared), but at least my H apparently stayed in the room with her until she fell asleep. My seven year old informed me that he yelled at the little one to go to sleep - at least maybe the OW will discover that he is impatient and easily frustrated. I don't suppose it ever occurred to him that she wasn't sleepy, since it was well before her bedtime. The seven year old must have told me how much she loved me twenty times in the first few minutes after she came home.<P>They didn't put them two floors away - they displaced her 11 year old instead. That sounds like a recipe for building resentment.<BR>

Oh no! I want to cry for your baby! At least he stayed in the room, though. (sigh) Sometimes I hold my babies and wish we could stay together in a protective little bubble, safe from the pain of this marriage gone crazy. I cry for us because I don't know how to keep us safe. We do the best that we can with the opportunies we've got.

Lizbeth,<BR>I know. My son keeps lamenting that he just wants a "normal" family. <BR>My H is chipping away at his relationship with yet another daughter. The nine year old made a suggestion and he yelled at her and apparently acted like she was an idiot for even suggesting it. Eventually he let her try it and it worked, and when she told me about it I could her the same distain in her voice that I hear in my older two girls' voices when they talk about their father. This is part of a pattern - he has done that regularly with me, with the kids, sometimes with coworkers - I just hope it isn't long before he starts doing that with the OW or with her kids. I am hoping that the OW is observing these interactions - if so, she would have to start wondering how long it will be before he starts treating her kids like that.<P><BR>

Nellie1,<BR>I hope the OW sees your H for the real man that he is SOON. <BR>I remember talking about my dad the same way your girls do. Now, we have a wonderful relationship. He came out last week on four days notice to be with me while I stressed out about my marriage. He cleaned my house and fed us. He even had a talk with my H. He changed a few years ago, and has been a terrific listener ever since. He's still getting a divorce from my mom, but it's not MY marriage so I don't worry about it. I hope your children can eventually get that from their father.<P>Lizbeth

Nellie,<P>Your post just makes me so sad. It is unbelievable that someone could have such little disregaurd for his children's feelings? I can't belive he doesn't see what he's doing to them. I am glad that they are back home with YOU! {{{{Hugs}}}}

Nellie<P>How are you today? Okay? I know how you feel. <P>This is hard. It won't go on like this forever. Be strong.<P>{{{{{{hugs, wisdom to you, and strength}}}}}}

I am so glad that my kids are home with me. My 7 year old didn't leave my side for quite awhile after she got home. Then the kids played with each other happily for several hours. They don't play with each other there much, I guess because the 9 and 13 year olds are too busy playing video games. <P>