I have been discussing the current threads on porn with my H.

As I have stated, I have come from the position that I believe porn is wrong (sin) because I interpret the words of Jesus when He clearly says: "If a man looks upon another woman with lust, he is committing adultery with her in his heart", as an illustration of pornography.

I have always personally hated it when people say something is wrong, or sin, without giving me the reasons or Biblical basis. It's never been enough for me to have some one quote a couple scriptures at me and call it good. If it is wrong, I want to know why.

I need to "see" it, and get the concept. Someone challenged me that the Bible was "silent" on pornography and I decided to meet the challenge and find it in more detail then the one scripture
I usually quote.

I want to thank this person for the challenge because it gave me cause to search a little deeper.

God is the ultimate parent. I trust that He has a good reason for His commandments. I feel that all of God's commands have some sort of
beneficial reason to his creation. I do not see God as this big killjoy up in heaven with the proverbial big stick to whomp us every time
someone in his creation God forbid, has fun .. or the big "O".

My stance as a Christian was that porn was somehow taking away from the marriage.(or future marriage) I described it as something that took away the affections of one or both the spouses.

My contribution to this discussion is a mini word study that my dear hubby did on the word "porn". He was looking for a scriptural basis (Bible
facts, if you will).

Here is the word study that he came up with ... (all references to the Zondervan Bible Dictionary)

*I do apologize for having to use the "whore" word. I really don't like to use that word, but sorry, it's the literal translation.*

Pornography: the study of porn

Porne: translated from Greek to English means “whore”.

Whore: a woman who habitually commits fornication and adultery, especially for money.

Adultery and idolatry are virtually interchangeable in meaning: both mean that affections have been transferred from one person to another. In the case of adultery, it is the spouse that is deserted, and in the case of idolatry, God is deserted.

The Old Testament, in reference to Israel and Judah, refers to their idolatry as unfaithfulness and adultery. See Jeremiah 3: 8,9; Ezekiel 23:37,45; Ezekiel 16:38; Hosea 4:13,14. And there are many others.


The connection is this:


A/ fornication is SIN in the Bible (unmarried sex)


B/ adultery is SIN in the Bible

C/ idolatry is SIN in the Bible


Those three sins are at the heart of pornography.


From the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary: “WHORE (Heb.”zanah”, Gr. “porne”) a woman who habitually commits adultery or fornication, especially for hire; a prostitute, harlot. It is noteworthy that in a very large portion of cases, the word is used for idolatry. The two words “adultery” and “idolatry” can be identically defined as “taking the love which belongs to one and giving it to another”.”

*Disclaimer*: the word “woman” can be replaced with “man”. Many Old Testament temple prostitutes in the Canaanite idolatries were men.

DZZZ

Diamonzzz,
I was very heavy into porn. And because of constant pressure from my W, I admitted to being a sex addict. I have talked with many who are/were and to several therapists; its a 50/50 split of whether or not I am. But, I do know that my behavior was not good.
Until I was saved on 9/3/03, I thought that there was nothing wrong with porn. After getting into the Bible, I highlight all references to Sexual Immorality, and can definitely see that Satan had me fooled for years. So I have kept away from it, I have slipped though (not online chats or strip clubs) with a few minutes of late-nite cable. I immediately feel guilty, because I know it IS idolatry.

I am somewhat afraid to ask this, but it has been on my mind. But before I ask,

ONEGOING, please monitor this posting for ANY language that is NOT Biblical, and that becomes graphic. I feel I can talk for most of the MBer's in this Prayer forum that we want to keep Satan out of here, and show only God working in us and through us for answers.

OK. Whew. What is the Biblical stance on masturbation? I have not seen any references to masturbation in the Bible thus far. I can understand for an adultery and idolatry standpoint, if I am thinking of someone otehr than my W, yes it is a sin. But, if I am thinking of my W and remembering the joy we use to give eachother by giving of ourselves, is that a sin? If it is not, what happens if my W doesn't pull back the D, will masturbating after the D, thinking of her, be considered a sin?

I am struggling every day to remove the sins in my life, to become more Christ-like.

Thank you sister for your great Biblical insights in the past and for joining us this forum.

God Bless,
TTSMM

Not to worry Trying. This subject has been addressed over and over again on MB. I usually stay as far from the topic as I can because I rarely agree with anyone and the topic seems to get off topic very easily.

In this case I sense a sincere call for help and a sincerity to know what is right. I also recognize that this breaks your heart that you have to be put in this place in your life. You would want nothing more than to not even have to discuss this topic. I know that you are torn up about your failing marriage right now.

When trying (no pun intended) to make a decision about something like this, you have to keep in mind that God would never ask you do to something that He didn't give you the grace to do, or not do.

So, please know that I am not saying this is an easy thing. It's not one of those read this scripture and read that one, and here take two Psalms and call us in the morning.

This is one of those subjects that is best addressed between you and the Lord, on your knees. You have have to get hold of what God says to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can understand for an adultery and idolatry standpoint, if I am thinking of someone otehr than my W, yes it is a sin. But, if I am thinking of my W and remembering the joy we use to give eachother by giving of ourselves, is that a sin? If it is not, what happens if my W doesn't pull back the D, will masturbating after the D, thinking of her, be considered a sin? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try to answer this question. My problem with this thinking is two-fold. "Remembering the joy".
The problem I see with that is that you may be "remembering" the joy, however in honesty, will most likely be adding some to that experience. The truth is, over time, you will be adding your own experiences to the mix and before you know it you have fantasies that you have created in your mind.

To be a little more graphic. There will be a temptation in your mind to have her do things in your fantasy that she might not "really" do in real life. That is not just remembering, that is creating an illusion and using your wife's body and face. To me, that is still porn. You might say though that you keep it to instances that you two HAVE experienced. I am challenging that thought. Be totally honest with yourself right there. Are you really just "remembering" how it was, or are you indeed adding your own version of the events.

The next problem I have with it is the fact that she is not a willing partner at this time. I know this sounds totally off the wall, but for me, I think the thought of my ex masturbating to my "memory" is well, you know....
not a thought I like to go there with. Perhaps your wife is different, but I am only giving you how I think and feel about it, and perhaps it's representative of others.

Bottom line, masturbation involves fantasy and it involves the mind. It involves a sexual relationship void of one person. It's like anything else that God has created to be wonderful. Within the confines of what He has intended it is great. Go outside those parameters and you have distortion.

I often wonder if the reason we Christians have such difficulty trying to counsel people in this area is because it really just is so embarrassing and unnatural. It will never be something most people are happy to discuss.

If it were pure, and honorable, and holy, you would think it would be something we could discuss. IMO anyway.

Now for my husband's thoughts. I asked him to write down his thoughts and he emailed me this, this morning:

Masturbation:

The only real direct reference to it is the case in the OT where a man “spilled his seed on the ground” to avoid pregnancy of the woman he was with. (the scriptureis the only one people use in reference to masturbation in the Bible, that I know of)

I have not been able to find direct reference to the act but I have a few thoughts:

1/ It is easier (laziness) to masturbate than to have a relationship, with all the potential problems and vulnerabilities to deal with.

2/ Sexual fulfillment was designed by God as an expression of love to each other, man and woman, and to bond spiritually and emotionally and become “one flesh”. Masturbation does not do that. “Wild at Heart” by Etheridge deals with the subject in a manner that should inspire men to give to their wives and work out the marriages, rather than masturbate and become complacent.

3/ Self-gratification is self-centeredness, IMO, and I believe that there is where the sin comes in. Anything that doesn’t place God first is sin, IMO. It may well be that the thoughts are confined to the departed spouse, but that still is only self- gratification. Who can really say that the thoughts will stay confined there? It opens the door to all kinds of potential problems and leaves one vulnerable to sin. The Bible says not to give the Devil a foothold because sin is always the result. Who can say that the masturbating person won’t be tempted to explore porn, or illicit sexual relationships, and REALLY mess his/her life up?

4/ Fantasies are vain imaginings and a twisting of a God-given ability to dream, in my view.

5/ Lastly, I cannot adequately verbalize the vexation in my spirit that takes place when I read or hear that the first thing that a person says he/she misses about the departed spouse is the sexual relationship, and the need to masturbate. What about everything else? What about missing that person’s words, or acts of kindness,? Drives in the country, opening birthday gifts, expressing dreams and hopes about that new house? Is sex ALL that the person misses? That just doesn’t sit well with me.

I believe that God needs to have the honor and glory here. We can ask God to make us “eunuchs” so that we may not sin. God can equip us to put our flesh under the subjection of the Holy Spirit. The Bible has numerous references to “overcoming” sin and the flesh. Masturbation is not honoring God. We honor God by choosing to put Him first in our lives, and not ourselves.

Hope this helps. Diamonzzz's H.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

DZZZ

<small>[ November 22, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]</small>

I personally believe that masterbating is probably "okay" as in I'm not sure you will be condemned to hell for MASTURBATING if all other things are in the right order... - however, there are statements in the bible referring to the "wrong" in 'dumping your seed on the ground' --- and being wasteful --- not to mention idolatry.

I believe strongly that the use of porn is idolatry - and I believe that people make SEX an idol unto themselves. I believe that people make way more of sex than it needs to be.

YES sex is an important part of marriage - however, it isn't the END ALL. It's simply a part of marriage - and since it IS mentioned in the bible as man or woman not withholding from their spouse except for a time of prayer and fasting - I believe it is an important part. NOT however - THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.

I think the important question here would be - what is your purpose for masterbating? WHat do you focus on -- a woman --- you are sinning. If you are simply relieving stress --- think about it... I'm just not really convinced it's necessary -- there are other means of relieving stress - try serving others rather than SELF.

Jan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHat do you focus on -- a woman --- you are sinning. If you are simply relieving stress --- </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is also my feeling right here. I will ask you honestly tho, can a man do that? Can he M and NOT think of a woman? (be it wife, etc.)

This is a whole nother debate, but I think a woman could. I have never asked other men this, and I really don't want to KNOW.. but I wonder if it's a question they might ask themselves.

Is it to relieve stress and can they focus on "it" rather than let the mind wonder? I think right there would be your deciding factor.

Just more thots....

DZZZ

Thanks,
I wanted to answer one pt your H made.
I have mentioned in other postings, I believe, that I am a very physically affectionate person. I miss the physical closeness I use to have with my W. I can not, WILL NOT, find another woman to fulfil that physical realm. I do think about and miss many of the things we use to do. The masturbating is an expression of what of we use to do that I feel I can do without sinning (I am not with anyone else in thought or reality). As for imagining things that we never did, I don't go there; I can't go there. Even though I was an atcor for a short time, I was unable to visualize or fantasize. My W use to ask me what my fantasies were? I couldn't think of any. I don't want you to get the idea that I am trying to defend myself; I am explaining myself (same thing?).
The reference to Onan: his "spilling his seed" is not a sin; his sin was not obeying the law to raise children in his dead brother's name with his dead brother's wife. *Some pastors and religious sites say this.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I will ask God for answers.

God Bless,
TTSMM

dunno ----- I'm a woman ... I honestly can't answer for the men...

But in reality - I don't think they can do that --- just thinking realistically.

It's kind of like liquor ----- I personally see nothing wrong with having a drink now and then - glass of wine or whatever, but... many people have a problem with it --- it becomes an adiction --- so I choose not to embibe.

Same with sex. I'm single - therefore it just makes the most sense to leave that area of life to God to protect. I can honestly say, that when I haven't done this - I end up in trouble... So, I put my best effort in leaving it to God. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jan

Hello, Trying: DZ's hubby here.

I have to say that we are at a bit of disagreement here as I just don't see any justification for masturbation. You are trying to make yourself feel better emotionally as though she were there with you. Your openness with this puts you light-years ahead of those who just justify sin, or who are just plain into denial. Don't change that.

Nevertheless, the big picture here is that you miss your wife and kids and are feeling emotions that I can't imagine feeling. I had always treated people as expendable, and am not overly affectionate, so I can't imagine what you must be going through as an affectionate person. That's where God has to change me.

I certainly will pray for you that God shows you His answers. God will help you deal with your pain and to handle what is down the road as this situation evolves.

In His Name,
OHIT

sj,

Why do you spell the m word differently in your post? Is one past tense maybe?

OHIT,
Yes, you need to get more affectionate!!!!! Your wife is on this forum WAAAAAAAY too much!!!!! Do you know what she needs???????

Is Monica Lewinsky considered a porn star???

singleguy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />