Ok, I've read the first couple of chapters again. I'm ready to discuss.

Tony

Jave/Tony,

I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in (or even if you live in the U.S. to be honest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I am doing the mom taxi thing this afternoon. Two teenagers--ya know?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> After taxiing them to the various malls and friends' houses, then I have to make dinner and load dishes and do at least one load of laundry. Thus, when my household duties are complete, I suspect I'll be back about 9pm Mtn. Time (which is 8pm Pacific, 10pm Central, and 11pm Eastern time for those of you who can't translate--haha).

If this is too late for you, I suggest you start a new thread about "Winning Your Wife Back" and give me ONE new thing you learned by re-reading the first few chapters, and one way that you plan to immediately integrate that new learning into your daily life. In my spare moments watching the dryer tumble, I will also re-read the chapters and discuss with you from the point of view of a lady, and what I LONGED from my exH to understand. Okay?? Okay, see ya then!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Jave/Tony,

I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in (or even if you live in the U.S. to be honest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I am doing the mom taxi thing this afternoon. Two teenagers--ya know?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> After taxiing them to the various malls and friends' houses, then I have to make dinner and load dishes and do at least one load of laundry. Thus, when my household duties are complete, I suspect I'll be back about 9pm Mtn. Time (which is 8pm Pacific, 10pm Central, and 11pm Eastern time for those of you who can't translate--haha).

If this is too late for you, I suggest you start a new thread about "Winning Your Wife Back" and give me ONE new thing you learned by re-reading the first few chapters, and one way that you plan to immediately integrate that new learning into your daily life. In my spare moments watching the dryer tumble, I will also re-read the chapters and discuss with you from the point of view of a lady, and what I LONGED from my exH to understand. Okay?? Okay, see ya then!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

I'm in the midwest. I've done two loads of laundry, a third is about to go in. I've changed the drive belt on my "new" car (a 1995 T-Bird), have now read three chapters in that book, as well as Day 15 of The Purpose Driven life and looked up the scripture references.

Alas, no kids here at the home as DW took them with her.

I still have bills to pay. (Is it disrespect of me to comment that DW didn't bother to take those with her?) As well as I should probably do my monthly report and close some of my calls from earlier this week.

So I empathise with the busy.

What did I learn?

I've comitted almost every penalty in the forward of the book since she has left.

How do I integrate that? Well, if I do nothing, at least I stop the penalties.

However, I don't see that as winning as much as stopping the losing.

I want to win.

Tony
Wondering how to do more than "not lose"

PS, I did read the part about starting a new thread. I can copy this to that new thread.

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony!!!

Listen and listen carefully. One thing the Purpose Driven life and many churches and Christians leave out of their view of life and Christianity is that we are at WAR! You have an enemy who will tell you (and your wife) every lie he can to keep you from being the man/warrior God intends, no, LONGS for you to be. You have a great mission, Tony, you have a glory in you that is unmistakeable - why? because you are a Christian and ALMIGHT GOD lives INSIDE OF YOU!!! Think about that for a moment - think about the ramifications of that. Now, do you think that Satan likes that? Do you think that he wants you to reflect God's glory? NO!!! By no means!! So, he's going to do everything he can to stop you - everything. I agree with the others - don't listen to those who aren't saved - they have the glory of Creation, but not the glory of Transformation. God has given you a new heart - the problems that you feel are such a part of you are not. That is your old sin nature that hangs around because we are still on the earth. It seems so radical to say that I have a good heart, but it's not - it's the Bible. "old things are passed away, behold, ALL THINGS are become new." That means you are a NEW creation - what afflicts you is Satan throwing everything he can at you. See it for what it is - an attack. God wants the best for you, but we are His soldiers so we have to defend our homeland (God's kingdom) and it is not always easy. Worth it, but not easy. I would urge you to read John Eldridge's book Waking the Dead (and by urge I mean read this book NOW). It has really changed my way of looking at life. I am beginning to see God work in powerful ways - He is calling me to battle too. It's scary, but there are prisoners who need freeing - aka your wife and my husband. One thing that really stuck with me is that John E said (paraphrased of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Jesus said that the thief comes only to steal, to kill and to destroy. Why in the world do we not believe and live like the thief really is out here stealing and killing and destroying.

Yep, he's out there - wake up, it's war.

Skilletsoup is so right, Tony. Consider this a spiritual war, trying to win souls! Don't let Satan win! It is so important to surround yourself with Christian support through this. I remember when this all first happened, I went to the other boards on here looking for advice on what to do. My H was with OW for a few months already & some people had told me to contact the OWH. I did not feel comfortable with this because I had read in scripture that it was not up to us to confess someone else's sins. This was to be done from the OW to her own H. It was not my place to do this for her. So I didn't. I had prayed, instead, a hedge of protection around my family, around my H, a hedge of thorns around my H so that the OW's interest in him would diminish. This worked. If I had done as I was advised by non-Christians, I really believe it would have made matters worse, and added more fuel to the fire! We are called to create peace and love, not strife. When I didn't do as they had asked me, I was shunned and still am. Only on this prayer request forum and surrounding myself with those that were also believing that my H would return as God promised, did I start to see changes in a positive direction, both in myself & in my H's heart.

I urge you to read the books everyone is recommending. They know their stuff. We have some very wise people on this forum. Take their advice and use it wisely, my friend.

And, please, pray for patience. You will need it. We are all here for you to encourage you and lift you up when you're feeling down. We love you, Tony.

I wrote this tonight in an e-mail and I wanted to share it here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony writes in an e-mail to a marriage builder:
<strong>

First, I want to say I didn't take your "preaching" as a negative. And perhaps that was not the right word to use

I don't know who it was who suggested this book to me, but I've been reading it tonight (when I can, I do have Camy with me.)
It is Discovering the Mind of a Woman.

Well, I'm half way through it, an I can tell you the title is a bit misleading. I've not learned a thing about the mind of a woman, but
I have learned that what has happened is because I don't have a Christlike attitude. Maybe as I read on, I will learn.

You know, even if I were to say this is because of Lori's baggage she had before the marriage, the author, Ken Nair asks an
interesting question. Has that problem gotten better or worse since the marriage?

I have to honestly answer that it has probably gotten worse.

On page 23 the author makes a bold statement: "Of more than five hundred men who have submitted to the discipline to become truly
Christlike in their behavior toward their wives, all have experienced a renewal of their marriages, even if they had already been divorced
for several years. Expressing love to your wife like Christ expresses His love to the church is a winner every time!"

You know, that seems to be a pretty bold statement. But I can see where that would work. It's not about plan A or plan B or protection
plans, it's about God's Plan!

It doesn't matter what plan I follow if I'm not following God's plan, if I'm not the husband God calls me to be.

I really think I've known this all along. You know how I've been saying all along that it hasn't really helped to tell me to do this or avoid that
LoveBuster. Well, maybe that's because that's not the problem? Those are simply symptoms of the problem I want to attack the root. I've already
experienced victory over one un-Christlike behavior and have made strides in other areas. But there is so much more to do.

I have a coach in mind. There is a Christian man I know from when I was in the Army, who seems to have such a gentle spirit and seems to
know his wife so well as well as what the Holy Spirit has to say. He too is a minister (ironic that many of my friends are in the ministry yet I'm so
oblivious to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in my life. It's not like I wanted to drive my wife crazy, make her mad, feel inferior, unloved, unimportant.
It's just I had no idea I was even doing those things.) I'm going to approach him to see if he has time to work with me.

I do wish she could see and trust that my heart is truly seeking to work on my own issues, how I accept responsibility for my spiritual failures, how I do
not judge her for her affair, nor why she felt that she had to file for divorce. My pride has gotten in the way, the idea that I can't be wrong has destroyed our
marriage and her love for me. Things I did "out of love" were only hurting her more. My ignorance is no excuse, I should have know to look at the
Word of God and the example of Jesus, yet I stubbornly, pridefully tried to do this in my own strength.

No, the answer is not any particular plan of man (or woman) but what is God's plan.

I pray as Ken Nair prayed in his own story for these three things:

1. That God would help me learn how to meet the needs of my wife, to understand her mind, her way of thinking, her innermost feelings.
2. That God would show me how to love my wife so that she would be able to experience more than just hearing me say, "I love you."
As God's representative, I wanted to have her experience God's loving her through me, to bless her heart through me. That would include
learning how to love her from her frame of reference.
3. That I would learn how to be the spiritual leader of my home. That my spirit might become so sensitive that I would become aware of the
Holy Spirit leading my spirit.

That is the plan to follow, not A, B, PP, but WWJD.

Tony

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Boy, Java, I'm impressed. I have to tell you, I read this post and had to walk away from it for a little bit to think about it and let it sink in.

I think first thing, I'd like to tell you how thankful I am that you are a godly man. That's fairly unusual these days (singelguy, s&c, and TTSMM excepted!--heehee), so as a woman seeking God's face, I'm grateful to see a man who is doing the same.

Anway, you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I've been reading it tonight (when I can, I do have Camy with me.) It is Discovering the Mind of a Woman.

Well, I'm half way through it, an I can tell you the title is a bit misleading. I've not learned a thing about the mind of a woman, but I have learned that what has happened is because I don't have a Christlike attitude. Maybe as I read on, I will learn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm.... interesting insite. I'm curious how you came to this conclusion.

I myself have not read the book to which you refer, and yet I'm not surprised that the book is not explaining to you how women think, because women, like men, all think differently. I wish it were as easy as saying, "Java, here's how women think and here's what you can do to show your wife that you love her." You know it's not the easy, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

However, I think it is a step in the right direction to realize that somewhere in your wife's heart, she is hurting, hurting, hurting. I do not know what went on or who did what to whom, but loving someone with the love and giving and devotion that Christ showed would be a HEALING thing. Of that, I am sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, even if I were to say this is because of Lori's baggage she had before the marriage, the author, Ken Nair asks an interesting question. Has that problem gotten better or worse since the marriage?

I have to honestly answer that it has probably gotten worse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May I speak directly to this? When I entered my marriage, I had been sexually abused by my father and beaten on a daily basis by my mother. I had some serious baggage from my past, and had managed to survive but had not yet gone to therapy or counseling of any kind.

People have baggage from their past, and pre-dispositions from the FOOs (families of origin). But that does not mean that the baggage has to be triggered, and if it is triggered, counseling and therapy and support/encouragement of a loved one can change things. In my instance, it was 7 or 8 years after my marriage before I began to be aware that I needed counseling and before I went. I started what was a become a 3 year counseling relationship with a man whom I now believe saved my life. But during my counseling, which I knew I NEEDED to become an abuse SURVIVOR and not just a victim of abuse, my H at the time was not supportive or encouraging. He wanted me to stop. He teased me about needing to go and called me crazy. He deliberately planned things to conflict with my counseling. It was crushing to have to go through what I went through in remembering and reconciling the past, AND simultaneously to have to struggle with my spouse just to go!

What's my point here? I was blessed--and I was determined. Even though I was teased and had to fight for every session, I went no matter what. Java, not every woman would get to the point of even recognizing they needed to go. Then, if by the grace of God they did recognize it, not every woman would keep going when their spouse was so resistant.

In your W's case, I bet you she did have baggage from her past, but she needed you to support her in her efforts to deal with her baggage. It really is an enormous soul-hurt when you are there for your spouse time after time, and when you really need him to be there for you, he's not. Now, I'm not saying that was the case with you, but from a lady's point of view, that's how it was for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On page 23 the author makes a bold statement: "Of more than five hundred men who have submitted to the discipline to become truly
Christlike in their behavior toward their wives, all have experienced a renewal of their marriages, even if they had already been divorced
for several years. Expressing love to your wife like Christ expresses His love to the church is a winner every time!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. You need to go see the movie to understand what that man just said. If a man expresses to his wife that he will love her to the point of giving of himself because it's best for her, I can tell you...he will win her back. I think this is what every woman craves--they just may not be able to verbalize it.

The thing is, Christ did not just "die for the church". That's way too rosey. He SUFFERED for her. He gave his all for her--ALL. He put the needs of her ahead of his needs. He endured separation from God because He loved her. He was innocent but kept his mouth shut. He was afraid to do it, and did it anyway. He was broken and ruined and hated and abused--and he did it all for love.

This is so convicting, because how many times have I refused to suffer for my H? How many times did I give but not ALL? How many times did I put his needs ahead of my own? How many times did I feel like I was enduring things and complain about it? How many times was I innocent and I had to PROVE it and prove it was his fault and not mine? How many times was I afraid and so I ran away?

See??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, that seems to be a pretty bold statement. But I can see where that would work. It's not about plan A or plan B or protection
plans, it's about God's Plan!

It doesn't matter what plan I follow if I'm not following God's plan, if I'm not the husband God calls me to be.

I really think I've known this all along. You know how I've been saying all along that it hasn't really helped to tell me to do this or avoid that LoveBuster. Well, maybe that's because that's not the problem? Those are simply symptoms of the problem I want to attack the root. I've already experienced victory over one un-Christlike behavior and have made strides in other areas. But there is so much more to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this may not be a very popular thing to say, but I do not believe that the Harley method is the end-all answer to saving marriages and ending affairs, etc. It is a wonderful TOOL which can be used to name concepts and provide visual images (like the lovebank is an analogy). But, I think that often people will do the MB "steps" and then say "This isn't working" or "This doesn't work" because it is the BEGINNING from which you can start--but it is not the cure. It's one way to start people thinking about needs and acting loving/lovebusters and acting unloving/and marriage. It's a START.

Thus, Plan A does not mean give in to your spouse's every need, be a doormat, and just be a giver. Neither does Plan B mean be completely silent and closeminded. Plan A is to get you thinking: Am I behaving in a way that reflects the "me" I was intended to be? Am I behaving lovingly in the way that my spouse understands love? What does my spouse need to feel love? Am I willing to do that? Understanding and having a name for Plan A is the first step toward BEING the person you were intended to be. So Plan A, B or XYZ is not "the answer"--it just gets you started on the right path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do wish she could see and trust that my heart is truly seeking to work on my own issues, how I accept responsibility for my spiritual failures, how I do not judge her for her affair, nor why she felt that she had to file for divorce. My pride has gotten in the way, the idea that I can't be wrong has destroyed our
marriage and her love for me. Things I did "out of love" were only hurting her more. My ignorance is no excuse, I should have know to look at the Word of God and the example of Jesus, yet I stubbornly, pridefully tried to do this in my own strength.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, Tony, without knowing it, you have stumbled across the mind of a woman. She is not in a place right now where she is capable of trusting. Thus, she can not trust that you have changed or are changing or seeking to work on your issues or anything. She can not trust. It's not there. And I don't mean to grind it into you, I'm just trying to clarify that it is not a possibility at this time. I bet she has even told you this, hasn't she?

Well, take heart and be encouraged, my brother. When you see that your pride has destroyed you, it is the beginning of true healing. Yes, my exH was very destructive to me, but my pride stood in my way and refused to admit my fault or take responsibility for my blame. I fought it for so long, and when I stopped fighting it, I tried to "fix it" in my own strength too.

Tony, I can not say whether your wife may have hardened her heart and determined to do this divorce. It may be. But I CAN say that as long as you keep your mind and heart on God and walking the path He has for you, you will be right where you are supposed to be. Now, it's hard to walk on a path when there's a whirlwind of hurt and strife all around you, but stay focused, humble yourself, be still and listen to God--and you will be where God called you to be.

I'm highly encouraged by your post, and I thank you for sharing it. Keep up the good work!!


CJ

Hello Tony

I have two cents that I want to add to all the wisdom that I have read.

My opinion only - I have yet to find a self help book that helped. I have found that reading the Bible has helped - you should be reading Psalms right now. Trust me - many people have told me that and I balked at it because I loved the misery because it made me feel like I was doing something for my wife - like suffering for her.

Someone said in a post that to know that God is always there whether you feel it or not; that God has given you His will for your life. They are so right it is scary! God never departs from us - Holy Spirit - we depart from Him - leaning on our own understanding and not His. God's will for your life is to live your life for Him as Him. Be imitators of Christ - Paul said to imitate him as he imitates Christ. He has given you all the grace and mercy you need. IT says that mercy and truth has kissed - is that not a wonderful thought. God is Good - He can't be anything else.

AS far as understanding what is happening or how your wife is thinking ---- give it up! To know how she is thinking is to start acting like her - sin has her - remember world, flesh and satan. The more you want to understand is because you want to solve her problems - you feel responsible as the husband to set things right because you wer such a bad bad bad man (husband). You know what you probably were - yet right now - you have your mind on Christ. You should be able to easily see where hers is.....so if you are trying to undestand her - you are going to get to where I was - frustrated and despairing of life. Hating myself because she hated me. Heck, right now my wife is with another man that is not a believer and believes that he is the greatest thing that ever happened to her. Amazing what happens when emotional needs are met. A woman desires are not a mams --- hae you been told this - don't believe it. We all have the same desires - we just react differently to them in both thinking and reacting.

Your on the right road! The narrow path! It is hard because you like me want to make it hard - you want to figure out the formula so that you won't have to struggle any more - ignoring the fact that it is through the suffering and struggle that true Life in Him is found. By the way - you said you don't follow the Holy Spirit - let me tell you something you do. It is the times that strange things happen that you notice the working of the Spirit of God because He wants you to notice it. Remember that the washing of the Word is just that...Faith comes by what?

Dude - if you could see Him and feel Him you would be in Heaven - yet look up for your redemption draws near. Stop blaming yourself when God doesn't. Stop trying to figure out the formula and know that it has already been given to you - the helper - the spirit of truth - the Holy Spirit has been given to you. Feed it with the Word so that it can use it to change your life towards His. Rivers of living water -- cool.....

I know where you are at - I feel your pain - for I have been there many times since Sept. The last 2 weeks I have been an emotional baby - and have left messages on WS phone crying and begging for another chance ---- she just loves knowing that I am suffering - she feels so much better after that.

Keep on Keepin on!

CJ and JoeCM,

Thank you for the responses. Wifey came over this AM to pick up our daughter to take her to a baptism this morning.

She was cordial and not nearly as combative as she was on Friday.

So it's easy to be Christlike when she is being nice. It will be much harder if she is being combative.

It's not appropriate to go into detail about Friday, but lets just say I didn't fight, I just said if you don't think I know what I'm doing, you can do it, and left it at that.

I did apologize this morning as I'm sure I didn't sound pleasant. I didn't yell or anything, but it was obvious I was perturbed, but I wasn't going to let her drag me into a fight.

She actually apologized too, as she realized the she called into question my abilities in doing something I was very good at doing, and said she can understand why I was upset at what she said.

So there is a human heart beating in there after all. I had begun to wonder if the little green men captured my wife and left a completely different person with me, LOL.

There is still much to pray for, and I've not heard from my Army buddy yet. Of course, he is a minster and today is his busy day, so I'll call him tomorrow.

Thanks for the comments, and your prayers.

Tony