CJ et al.

The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.

What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!

Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday.

I'm off to church.

I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air. ...I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do. ...I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Java,

Actually I do have a small clue about your ESTJ personality type, since both my ex and my son are ESTJ's. I know with both my men, I need to encourage them to do something fun, because they are very goal-oriented or task-oriented. So with them I try to get them to think of something they enjoy--they complain and whine that there's not anything they like to do--and then they go do whatever it is and have a pretty good time!

I'm glad you took a drive. Like you, I enjoy just driving a lot. Somehow it's soothing and comfortable, and I can usually think pretty clearly--I think the rhythm of the tires makes it easier for my Thinker tendencies to come out. Anyway, I also enjoy the scenery and knowing where the roads go, etc. Some nights, I just get on the freeway and DRIVE--other nights, I pick a road I haven't been on before and say, "I'm gonna see where this leads." I've found TONS of great shortcuts across Denver by doing that!

Anyway, I know what it's like to live alone and have things hanging up in the air. In some ways, having things undecided is even worse than just having it over with, and yes, in a way once a divorce is final there's the relief of knowing where you stand vs. being in limbo-land. Limbo-land always drove me nuts (well, nuttier--I was nuts before limbo-land! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). OTOH, in limbo-land there's hope and after the divorce is final it's less hopeful.

However, while I was in limbo-land, one of the things that I found myself doing was that I was afraid to be happy. Somehow it seems wrong or sacreligious or something to be happy while I was abandoned by my spouse. Does that make any sense? Almost like a person in mourning is "supposed" to act all sad and gloomy for a respectful period of time, I thought that if I felt joy it would somehow be disrespectful of the huge loss of my marriage.

This is why I encourage people to try a little fun. It feels odd to have fun and be happy when so much time has been spent feeling sad, lonely, and blue. It feels "wrong" to feel joy when your husband/wife is gone!! But I believe God wants us to be happy and feel joy, so let yourself feel a little bit of happiness and enjoyment. Practice some of the things that you used to just LIKE so much. Now what is fun to you is probably not fun to me...but if it makes your heart sings, that's what I'm talking about!

Now, Tony, just so you know, I won't leave you hanging. I have that big old post ready to go, and I'll put it up in just a minute.

Chin up, my brother.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Java, did you realize that most of what you are learning is for you to practice on yourself, to make you the man God intended you to be? People often get the wrong idea that Plan A is being a doormat doing everything their spouse wants in order to meet the spouse's needs. Nope. Plan A is finding out who JAVA is, finding out the kind of man JAVA has the potential to be, finding out the kind of husband and father God intended you to be, and then BEING THAT MAN.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as we are going through the Penalty chapter here, your thought is to figure out what penalties you did (and it sounds like most of them) and then GO TELL HER you're sorry and you've changed. Right? Nope. The purpose of the Penalty chapter is all about YOU...getting honest with yourself and admitting to yourself that you actually did participate in the EA and break up. It's about seeking out within you, the areas that you need to work on and then WORKING ON THEM. It's not about telling her or somehow convincing her that you've changed, because frankly that's not a change--that's more of the same of being the "in control" "impatient" old Java.

I'm trying not to be too harsh here, but the work that needs to be done is not to prove to her...it's to transform you into the man you have the potential to be, and then if she is ready, she will SEE the difference just by the way you treat her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha! Well I'm going to giggle. I can't tell you how many times I heard this from my ex: "Gee what's your problem? I'm not so bad. After all, it's not like I go out drinking every night, come home drunk and beat you--or blow all our money on drugs and getting high! It's not like I'm a convict or anything." Can you believe it? He didn't go out drinking, and he didn't do drugs...that's true...but he DID have 13 affairs, was a sex addict who wouldn't even try recovery, and had a mental illness he would not deal with!

See, he spent so much time dwelling on how he WASN'T such a bad guy, that he could never quite soften his heart to see where he WAS having trouble. Now, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist, but I do know that if he had worked on those issues, he really wasn't such a bad guy and I think the marriage and family could have chosen to stay together. Problem is, he would have had to admit it, and it probably would have been a lifelong struggle and required lifelong work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday. I'm off to church. I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me tell you a cute story. For the longest time I used to pray to God for patience, and then I got sick of it. I realized that if I prayed for patience, He would send me situations that required it. So I decided to say, "God, I do not pray for any more patience. I believe I understand patience and I would prefer to not have to be patient any longer. Could you please teach me another lesson? Thank you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Aren't I funny? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

April 20th is my birthday. Hmmmm...


CJ

CJ,

I really do hear what you are saying, but sometimes I think we are talking apples and oranges.

I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic.

You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey.

So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???

I'm certainly not perfect, but I AM willing to learn.

I have ALWAYS been willing to learn and have acknowleged to W that we speak different languages, have different ideas about romance.

I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted.

She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings.

Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.

I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)

Well, I just re-wired the stereo in the T-Bird. The "clown" that previously owned the car just threw it in there. Hey, even my power antenna sorta works now, but it is very slow going up.

It's a sunny day, so I think I'll go for another drive before evening services.

Tony

CJ,

Can you tell me when the next lesson will be?

I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset.

She says I have too many expectation. ( We were talking about me seeing our daughter. )

She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help.

I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. I dunno, I'm secondguessing everything I say. W brought up help and I said I was willing to help.

Probably sounds like I'm blaming her, and I guess in a way I was.

In hindsight, the best thing to say was that it must be tough, but you will figure out the right thing to do.

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me these words during the conversation and not an hour later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, on the plus side, 6 months ago, these words wouldn't even have been in my mind, so there is some progress.

I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul.

So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!

There I go again, focusing soley on the destination and not "enjoying" the journey.

Well, to be honest, this is not a fun journey and sometimes I want to wring James' neck. I really don't see the joy in my trials right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">James 1:2-8
<strong>

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony

One more thing. I sent this in an e-mail to another MB'er, but I wanted to post my "logic" here as well:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally E-Mailed by jSC
<strong>
One more thing!

Thoughts I had folding laundry.

1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them.
2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.

Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion)
Isn't it about time I came to this conclusion, it only took either 6 months since she moved out or 10+ years that I've known her.

Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings.

Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. <-- I can't believe I spelled this right, the spell checker did not complain, LOL

Does God make Andro for the soul?

Tony
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well,

I also figure out one way to get there.

SHUT MY MOUTH!!!

At least that way, I won't overpower her with logic. Now how do I keep my mouth shut AND get her to open up and begin to share with me what she is feeling?

I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.

Listen right!

Of course there is that pesky matter of patience. Now that I've figured out these things, I want to put them into practice.

Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W.

Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed.

I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL

Tony

Good evening, Tony/Java.

Were you on-call? Here in Colorado it was sunny, warm, and beautiful, and I love living in the west because of days like this. BTW, off-topic a little, I wish all of you folks out there in MB-Land could see a Colorado day like this. It’s so clear and the sky is so blue…it just snowed two days ago, so the mountains are dressed in a delicate white. Seriously, days like this I just thank God that I live in a place where I have the privilege of seeing some of the most beautiful creation in the world—God’s handiwork is just SO evident in the mountains!

Well, let’s take a moment to sip some coffee and get started, shall we?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I’ve read and pondered your “Penalties” Tony, and I have one overall, general comment. As I was reading, I got the general feeling that almost all of the penalty answers were, “Guilty, but…”. Is this the message you were intending to get across, or were you trying to be honest with yourself about yourself and that’s hard? Or were you being honest with yourself yet also explaining how or why you behaved that way? Or were you maybe explaining to yourself whilst also typing “out loud”?

In a very general way, I personally usually do not find that explanations help soften the blow. When I’m hurting, it can maybe turn a gigantic hurt into a medium hurt, but frankly it usually sounds like justification to me, rather than doing any good or feeling any better. From a logical point of view, it sometimes does help to at least see the progression of how you got there—and then my mind sort of says, “Ahh…that’s what happened.” Nonetheless, this is a little bit like a person stabbing someone 3-4 times and then explaining how he or she logically thought the victim was a burglar. “Cool—I can see why you stabbed me—but could you please get me a band aide and an ambulance??” Speaking as a Feeler, render aide to the wounded first and THEN explain it to them.

BTW, just so you know, I just realized something literally as I was typing here. Initially I was going to say, “Speaking as a Feeler, fix it first and THEN…” and I realized that I MYSELF was not taking personal responsibility there. My own words were sort of reflecting that someone else fix my wound, and that’s not healthy. Yep—someone else may assist a lot and like a doctor would give me stitches, but in the end, I’m the one who has to heal, right? The doc can’t heal for me. Same applies here. You may inadvertently hurt your wife, and you have the choice to create an environment in which she can heal or not, but SHE has to do the healing and SHE has to choose to allow restoration. (In other words, if she’s the one who’s wounded, she can choose to forgive and heal it, or she can choose to keep that wound open and deny recovery).

Anyway…let’s get started on the Penalties:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Recruiting. … It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for L, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her, …so I try to avoid her family as much as possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, it sounds like that doesn’t make sense to you. Here’s why that upset her. She established a boundary and said, “My boundary is around my family. Do not cross this boundary” and you did. Without saying a word, this says to her that you do not respect the limits and restrictions that she says she needs. Even though your words to her family were gentle and understanding, the action itself communicated that you did not care about what limits she said she needed, and you trampled all over her limit. A few options that might have worked better would be “I hear you saying you don’t want me to even talk to your family, but I would like them to know that I realize they are going to be there for you, and all these years I did not understand how much I was hurting you 1) HOWEVER, since your limit is not to talk to them, I will respect your wishes. Would it be okay if I write to them?” or 2) HOWEVER, I will respect your wishes because getting understanding from you is much more important than getting understanding from them.” Or 3) HOWEVER, if you need me to not talk to your family in order to have some space from me, I will respect it.”

Do you see, Tony?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. Blaming Well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt… But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself. This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer. …This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you are right about one thing. It really is hard to not blame. It’s so much easier to say, “Well, since my spouse had an affair and has mental health issues and unresolved FOO issues from her past and refuses to address them, it’s not MY FAULT.” However, we are commanded to live in faith, and faith makes things POSSIBLE, not EASY. We have to face the tough facts here.

I suspect you may not want to understand this right now, but your wife had an EA for a reason. This isn’t the blame game, Tony, it’s reality. I had a temptation to have an affair once, and at the time I felt AWFUL about it—and now I think it happened so I could at least sympathize with the WS’s and not think of them as selfish monsters. My H at the time had moved out of state and was living with his OW and her 4 kids. For YEARS prior to that, my H had blamed me for all that was wrong with the family, the kids, and our lives…he called me names, gave me the silent treatment to punish me, was demanding and controlling, and at times he was abusive. Now, I’m not blaming—I’m telling you all this because I am a VERY, VERY monogamous person and my mind and desire did not wander from him…and yet my head was really down on myself and I truly believed most of his blame and criticism. Along came a fella—yep a man—who told me he thought I was smart and had a great sense of humor and was fun to talk to. Who, ME?? * I * was smart? You’ve got to be kidding! I couldn’t believe it that someone actually enjoyed my company and thought I had something to contribute. When we would talk or write, he spoke to me as if I was intelligent and interesting—my H at the time spoke to me like he could not beeeeeelieeeeeeve how stupid I was, I never used ANY common sense, and I was boring and mind-numbing. Thank God I realized in time where I was heading if I kept talking to that man, but nonetheless I am a VERY faithful person and even * I * almost fell for it.

My point here Tony is that blame is usually one tactic that people take in order to avoid looking at themselves. I didn’t realize until after this fella spoke to me, how my H was speaking to me –or- (more importantly) how I was speaking to him. We had fallen into the habit of speaking to each other critically and judgmentally, and probably without meaning to, had ended up hurting each other and falling out of love. Sound familiar?

Tony, you can’t blame her for her EA weakness, because part of what crumbled the foundation was you. Let me guess (and I admit…I am guessing here): long hours working—career was IMPORTANT after all; little or no time alone together having fun; maybe kids take away even more time; when you were together, it was criticizing and arguing, not fun and playing; she didn’t want to do things with you, and you didn’t want to do things with her; she did not admire you so you did not appreciate her; etc. Am I on the right track??

As you think of blame and forgiveness, please keep your focus purely and exclusively on you and how you contributed. She may have done XYZ and chosen ABC, but there were ways that you added fuel to the fire—maybe inadvertently. And btw, I’m not trying to make you feel bad here—I am confident you feel bad already. What I AM trying to do is to take a look at yourself and be honest with yourself and maybe get a glimpse of how it looks through Feeler-colored glasses. My exH actually DID some things and CHOSE some things that contributed to the ending of our marriage, but those are his bags to carry. My job—and YOUR job—is to look at my own self, repent and repair for the things I did, and learn to do better. I can’t “make” him get better, but I can focus on myself and on what God needs to change in me. Hey, maybe we will NEVER, EVER get back together (in fact, I doubt it at this time), but that does not preclude me from becoming a better woman, nor does it give me reason to not become the woman God intended me to be. God gave me the potential to be a warm, wonderful, mature woman, and that’s who I should become whether I’m with him or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. Critical Spirit Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical…Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticism is even more dangerous. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, since my other replies have been so long, I think I’ll keep this one as short as I can. You have no idea how much criticism can harm an INFP. Now as an INFP, I’m not saying we can’t take constructive criticism, but my own tendency is to take a criticism PERSONALLY. Thus, when I try really hard to make a tasty roast dinner and overcook the roast just a little (it’s still tasty and edible but a little dry), a comment about how dry the roast is could be dangerous.

See if you can see the distinction:

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner. The roast is a little more dry than I personally prefer, but that gravy you made just moistens it right up and gives it the best flavor!”

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner, but the roast was too dry.”

“Oh, honey, good god. How hard is it to watch the clock and get the roast out at the right time so it doesn’t dry out?”

In the instance where a criticism is requested, or if a criticism is necessary for open and honest communication, try to remember before you say it that your wife is a delicate butterfly and you are a buffalo about to throw a small pebble at her. If you toss it gently, it may knock her over but not rip through her wing—but if you throw it with any force at all—you’re a buffalo! It will rip through her like she’s not even there! My guess is that the difference of force to a buffalo is pretty undetectable—but the difference of force to the butterfly is ENORMOUS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enough space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my brother Tony, “space” does not mean cubic inches of unfilled air between us. “Space” means the freedom to think her own thoughts and be the woman she is, in an environment that is safe and supportive. You two could live with each other and have tons of “space” or you could live states apart and still not have enough “space.” It has to do with feeling squelched and controlled, and it has to do with feeling like she’s not allowed to make decisions for herself or BE herself.

Let me give you a concrete example. I live with my children and I have plenty of space with them. I can be a crazy, funny, happy-go-lucky person with them, and if I goof up they laugh and say “oh well!” I feel completely safe to be myself and I won’t be ridiculed. I make decisions about our lives and about myself, and even when my kids disagree with me, they ask me if I can explain my reasoning and then say, “I disagree but I understand why you feel that way.” I do NOT live with my exH and have not for about 2 years now. I can not be who I am with him, because if I make one mistake, he believes he has the right and duty to chastise me in front of everyone. If I goof up, I am teased for days. When I make decisions about my life or the kids’ lives, he second-guesses me and belittles my decision. If we disagree, I am forced to agree with him or else… See, I don’t live with the man, but I have no space from him. (Plus he has no desire to “fix” things between us, so it’s quite different from your situation).

Tony, being patient is important because it communicates several things: 1) I’m willing to let you call the shots. 2) We can work on YOUR timeframe not mine. 3) I will let you control things in this regard. 4) You are valuable enough to wait for. 5) I do not need instant gratification. 6) You have some say in your own life.

I bet you didn’t know it said all that, did ya??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. Setting a Time Frame Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The “setting a time frame” penalty is a little more like: “You should trust me by now. It’s been long enough. Now you’re just punishing me,” or “You should have been able to find yourself by now. How much longer do you need, for crying out loud?” or “You have until next week and then I divorcing you.” It’s inflicting YOUR timing onto your partner. In this penalty, the usual thing that most men miss or misunderstand is that the greater the hurt, the longer the time it takes to heal. In other words, if you were to make the conscientious decision today to stop hurting her and give her time to heal, it might take a few months or a year of NOT BEING HURT. If you accidentally add hurt along the way, it can be a setback. Trust is a major issue—the relationship needs security.

May I be completely blunt here? I wish my exH had any kind of desire to stop hurting me and give me the time I need to heal. Your wife may not know it, but she’s SO LUCKY—you want to stop, you just don’t understand what you’re doing. So, if she says she needs space and time, give her space and time. The way I look at it, this is a marriage for life, right? If people live to 80 and were married when they’re 20, that means a 60 YEAR INVESTMENT. What’s a few months or even a year to let her know she’s loved and give her time to heal?

By the same token, I wanted to commend you for even considering a time frame for your Plan A and Plan B. At the time, I never even thought to consider a time frame, and before I knew it years had gone by. It was one of my regrets, that I didn’t decide within myself what was right and set a limit. So good for you that you have established that time frame! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6. Displaying Affection No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay—so since this does not seem to be a penalty you are committing, for now let’s go past it. I will comment that I notice it is an issue for you, but that’s another post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7. Overkilling Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capable of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counseled me to see what I could do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony do you see something? It sounds to me as if you immediately were defending why it was okay for you to do this penalty…Steve Harley told you to. Just consider that for a bit and see what you think.

She asked you for a long time to please bring her flowers or something, and you blew her off and didn’t do it. It took too much time, cost too much money, etc. But NOT doing those little things that she clearly told you out loud, you communicated that she was not important—what she needed was not important. So finally, she gave up. In her mind, if she wasn’t important to you, then she’d go somewhere where she WAS important. THEN you started to do the things that she asked and asked and asked you to do, and she thought, “You had your chance buddy and you dismissed me. Why should I take your flowers now? When I needed them, you told me tough!” Why now?? Why didn’t you do this when she needed it for a pick-me-up or encouragement or reassurance? Because you didn’t care. So why should she care now? That door to her heart is closed now, and she wanted to give you the key and leave it open, but didn’t care so now it’s LOCKED!!

I’m sorry, my friend. I know this is harsh, but part of the process here is being honest and not avoiding what is really happening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. Underestimating Hurt Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. …

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really…well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, at times I wonder if I should even point out what I see or hear. I’m trying really hard to be sensitive here, but it just feels to me as if over and over again she TOLD you and even used her voice to say things out loud, and yet you chose to ignore it or dismiss it or put it out of your mind—and then you say, “She never said anything!!!”

Not to pile it on, but she gave you a LOT of info!! She told you not to talk to her family, and you disrespected her boundary and her. You were critical and she asked you to stop and you disrespected her way of doing things. You were impatient and wanting things to hurry up to your schedule, and she asked you to give her some “space” and you disrespected her time frame and her. She did not want you to display affection and had to move away from you so that you wouldn’t hug or kiss her, and you sure resent that she took that away from you. She told you she needed flowers (or whatever it was) and you ignored her and didn’t care—and then when she gave up and locked that door…THEN you started to give her what she needed because you were feeling the loss. When it was only HER feeling the pain, you didn’t care. She asked for the flowers and you disrespected her need. Even now she has told you that she’s not sure if she could ever re-commit to the marriage again, and you are pushing for DAILY TIME TOGETHER to prove how much you’ve changed!!

OUCH. I’m so sorry to have to say these things to you. I know today is already a hurting day for you so I’m going to stop. But I pray that you’ll take a moment and soften your heart and put your defenses down and consider before God if this is what He was trying to say to you today. The reason we are studying penalties here is to INVESTIGATE and find out what it was that caused us to lose yardage in our marriages, remember? We can’t get a handle on the penalty if we don’t admit that we do it. Tony, I know she never hit you over the head with a frypan to get your attention and tell you she was hurting (a much easier sign to read) but she DID try!

I think a big part of the puzzle here is that your wife feels invalidated—she’s not allowed to be a unique person complete with needs and wants that she deserves to have met too. Invalidation occurs when you talk to her like a child, flare up in jealousy, rage at her, restrict her freedom…pout, sulk, withdraw, or give her “the silent treatment.”

Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her.

Well, my friend, I have spent almost all day with you. Now, I’m going to give myself a break and think on lighter things (like a peanut butter cookie and some cold milk). Please consider what I’ve said and let me know what you decide.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

CJ,

I was just saying why I did what I did, not that what I did was right.

You did want to hear the logic that drove my actions, right?

You have done an excellent job of telling me what I did wrong.

The hard part is how do I change those things? You've read my writings before, even what happened tonight. So how do I realize BEFORE I do one of these "horrible" things not to do them.

My "logic" tells me they are not wrong, so I need new logic, an yes I'm impatient to have it now.

I don't see in anything I've read HOW to reprogram myself for these situations.

For example, you mentioned that I was competing with SD. I never thought of it that way, but yes there was an element of that. I felt that she put SD before me, even after talking about this and we both agreed that we had to put each other before any other person on earth, including our children, as we would be with each other after the children were gone.

Anyway, so HOW do I do these things, and I am SERIOUS. It is obvious that I just don't get it, and I have not yet found how to make these changes. You are asking me to change things that:

a) I don't truely understand.
b) That I don't truely realize I do.
c) That I've done for 38 years give or take.

I'm not saying I'm unwilling. What I'm saying is, I don't know how.

I've been telling myself for 6 months to consider her feelings. I'm still as oblivious as ever.

I appreciate the feedback on the feelings and I do believe you are right on. I've prayed, tried to work with Steve Harley, I'm working with a local therapist, I've been to see my pastor, asked my one true friend to role play with me. (he is dubious, BTW.)

So I've not found the way to get there yet.

I don't want this to sound like I don't believe you, because I do. The message I'd like you to take away from this is I don't know how to change, how to suspend my heavy reliance on logic.

I'll read your message again in a few hours. I just got up in the night and checked. So this is my first look at what you wrote while in my PJ's and without my glasses, LOL

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I already have, months ago, back in September before she even left, and for some time after she left, and she is not willing, as you suggested.

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

First, I wasn't saying I wanted to give up being a thinker, but rather know when and how to be a feeler when it is more appropriate to focus on those things.

Like I said, thinking is great for my job, so I don't really want to lose those talents.

Being a thinker, almost exclusively, has destroyed or nearly destroyed every one of my relationships. I'm not even that close with my mother.

So I'm not saying I want to perform a wholesale overhaul of my personality. Rather, I just want to be able to appreciate and understand the feeler.

I guess neither of us can sleep. I do have my glasses on now, and no I don't own a flat screen. (I'm too cheap!)

Ok, why can't I sleep? Because I'm a thinker, and there are a million thoughts running through my head right now.

So, not to dismiss what you are saying, but I've just realized something. It's a parallel event in my life, but it provides me with some insight.

You know I went on a couple of drives this weekend. Actually three, I went for a drive Friday night as well after SD wouldn't let me see YD.

What I just noticed this morning is that when I drive just to drive, I don't get frustrated. Now maybe it is because there isn't much traffic as I like to do these things on the weekend. However, when I do have to be somewhere, and before you say just leave earlier, it's almost impossible to leave for a customer site BEFORE the pager goes off. So yes, I'm talking about a trip in response to a page and the time pressure to arrive, meeting a response window. I get stressed big time when there is a set destination and time target.

Ok, what does that mean? It means I'm probably not at my best, not my most attractive when I'm under that kind of pressure.

So I go back to James.

How do I find the joy in these trials?

Ironically, it seems to me all of this stuff is focused on the destination. Dr Harley's books focus on you stopping LB's, but nothing about HOW to get there.

Same thing with the understanding the mind of a woman book. Not a single thing that helps me understand the mind of a woman. A lot of rationale why it is important. But it says become more Christlike, and yet no plan on how to do that either.

Combine this with either my inability to pay attention to, or the unwillingness of the Holy Spirit to show me the way at this time and I'm frustrated.

(And why do I have more questions than answers?)

Ok, I want to sleep now for a couple of more hours. I'm throwing some laundry in the dryer to get it 1/2 dry and will finish it when I get up for real to shower etc.

While I can function on 4 hours of sleep. I'd like a couple more...

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,


Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would probably be easier if I made a list of what I did right. It seems I did everything wrong.

A) I kept a good job the whole time
B) I didn't drink away my paycheck
C) I didn't have any affairs
D) I didn't beat the wife or kiddos

Ok, that about covers it. I did everything else wrong. Or at least I feel that way.

CJ, I know what you are doing and I do appreciate it. I've been at this step ONE for 6+ months.

I'd really like to move to a new step.

Tony

Well, I've had a frustrating day at work, no real progress in 6 months of trying to win my wife back.

Nor am I happy with my progress either. In fact, I'm still impatient.

So I'm going to work out and try to sweat out some of this frustration.

Will someone either provide me with the solution or just solve all of these problems for me so I can have a happy, healthy reunited family and marriage.

Maybe if I do 50 pushups everytime I get frustrated about the destruction of my marriage and my inability to win my wife back (or even to understand her) I'll have some huge arms or learn not to be so frustrated, LOL

I really am seeking God's will and his plan in all of this. I just find it frustrating that I have failed so miserably up to this point.

I am not used to failure!

Tony

Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay??

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.

I'm frustrated with me and God more than I'm frustrated with any person. God tell us in His word:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">James 1:2-8
<strong>
James 1


Trials and Temptations

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm asking for wisdom here, I want to know what words God would have me speak to my wife. I want to know what actions God wants me to perform. If He doesn't want me to talk to her, then tell me.

You mention later that you are proud of her. I'm proud and troubled.

When she moved out and told me she just wanted to have her space, I SUPPORTED HER IN THAT. I HELPED HER MOVE!!!

I didn't say that what she was doing was wrong. In fact, when her family thought she was nuts, I was IN HER CORNER SUPPORTING HER AND TELLING THEM THAT I UNDERSTAND THAT SHE NEEDS TO DO THIS.

So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive.

But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>


Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do.

I don't see an affair as the "things you are supposed to do" in a relationship.

I understand why she had the affair, she felt hurt, insignificant, etc. Furthermore, my attempts to "take her pulse" were met with answers like, "oh, I'm just tired" when I asked her how she felt, or when she would just park herself in front of the TV in the bedroom and run me out.

She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away from her soap operas or reality shows.

I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation. Now we don't.

So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation meet. I went online and talked about cars, autocrossing, motor oil, whatever...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. If I wanted to hurt, I'd say something like (and I don't say these things) that two timing so-n-so (fill in your favorite prejorative) is screwed up in the head.

I've NEVER said anything like that, to her, or anybody else.

Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the question I've been asking. It seems God is uncharacteristically silent on this so far. Maybe you are His messenger, I don't know. All I know is I WANT to know what to do.

I don't want to skip to step 4, because I know I have to open or wait for her spirit to open.

However, I think I made the case for not spending more time on step 1. I've been in step #1 for 6+ months. I don't disagree with you regarding the things I did wrong.

I just need to see these things BEFORE I do them. I can see them AFTER they've occured, but I don't have that filter. I don't hear the Holy Spirit guiding my words, and that is what I want, or want to learn.

Again, I'm willing to do the work, I agree that there is merit to understanding how she feels and how can I anticipate how she will feel about anything I might say BEFORE I say it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEAH! Now you are speaking my language. I do want to say that I have no problem with expressing my feelings and W even says that.

My problem is that I cannot see how my words and deeds make others feel, nor can I even anticipate how someone might feel and adjust my words or actions based on a potential for hurt feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank You!!! You are right, I never thought of it that way.

I can see your/her POV. See, I have no idea how she might see/feel about these things.

That's the kind of information I'd like to hear from her. I would welcome that information and thank her for that, much as I'm thanking you right now.

So since she can't tell me and it is impractical to bring every scenario to you, how do I learn to anticipate this?

I will perform the exercise you mentioned, but I'd like you to tweek the exercise so I can learn to anticipate the feelings of others.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You read what I read before as well. I too am proud that she is taking steps that she thinks will make her a better, healthier person.

Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try to call before 8PM as she tries to get YD to bed by 8:30. I called Sunday night at 7:30PM, and that isn't a typical dinner time. So how am I supposed to know she is eating dinner.

Didn't try to force a relationship talk. In fact, I asked her about what happened with SD on Friday night. I've NEVER just shown up at the apartment. I've NEVER asked to come over to the apartment. I only come when invited, and SD asked me to bring her something Friday night, and I simply wanted to visit with YD and was not allowed to.

So I asked W about this, and the conversation went to W having her own problems with SD and how she didn't have anyone to help.

So I shared the fact that I'm still willing to help, and she got upset about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above, I've never just "stopped by" I do call to talk to her, and I think that is appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I wasn't as sweet as you were, but I said I was there to help.

She used to have me get the girls three days a week to take them to school in the AM as on MWF YD has pre-school at 9AM and SD (14yo BTW) has school at 8AM, and they both are still in school near our house and 20 minutes from the apartment.

So three days a week, I was driving over there, getting the girls and driving back.

SD has basically become impossible with me, saying things like I'm going to kill her, I killed her cat, etc.

(I only kill bugs, and the occassional trout while fishing.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, please help me come up with an exercise where I learn to predict the emotional response of others to what I'm saying or doing.

It's not that I'm devoid of emotion, but rather that emotion is a very small part of my decision making and word choice.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks,

Tony

I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all.

I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty.

So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble.

So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.)

Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaruant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do.

Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered.

I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions.

For example, let's say I was buying a car. I've examined the numbers, looked at horsepower, handling, reliability and cost. So let's say that when I examine two cars, one is fast and less expensive. The other handles well and is reliable. I value all four equally, so I have a tie.

It is only then that I would look at something other than the facts. I may begin to consider intangibles. How do I look in the car. Which made the more favorable first impression, etc.

But I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do.

But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel.

I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial.

However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary.

(You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fun
enjoyed
love
disappointed
satisfied

The reader's digest or ESTJ summary would be:

You had a busy day at work. While you didn't accomplish all you wanted to accomplish, you felt good about your day.

A secretary was out, so you had to pick up her slack. You got a chance to re-connect with customers you haven't talked to in a while as well as have some fun with the locksmiths.

(Notes: I checked to see if you indicated the secreary was female, I did not assume.

I take it you don't normally talk with these folks???)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Done, I think!

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. (Is that too confusing?)

So tell me this, turning the exercise around, when I say, "My wife had an affair" what feeling words did I use?

NONE!

So don't assume I'm trying to hurt her.

I'm not angry here either. If I'm angry or feeling any other things, I'll express them. I have no problem expressing my feeling. I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions.

Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone.

You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose.

Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly?

Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% spot on! Continue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that the job of the Holy Spirit, to move me to speak the words to God that He wants to hear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying to do that, I've prayed for that as well. I just need to do a better job of it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, I don't think what you said rises to the point of me being hurt, but if you feel you need to be forgiven, then I want you to know that you are forgiven.

I didn't even think you were speaking harshly. I just felt you didn't truly understand, or perhaps you were projecting your feelings onto what I did/said.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly.

I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflys from buffalos.

Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality.

How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarly the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time.) and then ran out the door.

So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out.

So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago?

This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgement, but simply my perspective on how I percieve what is going on.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are welcome. Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler.

Why not the other way around. Often it feels like only the thinker should change.

Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work.

But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker.

So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler?

Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times.

I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers.

Do many thinkers stick around here?

I wonder...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you go back to the message where I was responding, you mentioned a good portion of communication is non-verbal. However, I don't get those non-verbal cues talking on the telephone. There is no body language. I cannot see what she is doing with her hands, her eyes. I can probably start picking up on the tone of her voice, but I need to learn because I'm just listening to the words and what they mean, not the tone and feeling it conveys.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company.

Ok, that's a lot for the past hour or so, so enjoy.
Please remember, the ESTJ is not trying to hurt anyone, because hurt is not logical and it serves me no purpose to hurt you or my W.

Tony

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>