CJ,

I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace.

W had YD call me this morning. While she didn't want to talk to me, I did enjoy the chance to chat with Camy.

I did make sure I left her a v-mail at the apartment thanking her for having Camy call me today. (Can't rely on a 5yo to deliver that message 8^) )

From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God.

He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.

But the rest of the day has been somewhat peaceful.

I'm off to my Tuesday night men's Bible study. We are working on my "favorite" book, James. (I'll either get my hands around the words, or get them around the author's neck, LOL.)

Thanks,

Tony

Java,

Didn't mean to intrude on your post here, but I just wanted to give you a thumbs up for really trying to understand your W & make the changes necessary for you to be the H you were created to be. YAY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You'll find the answers you're looking for - God will send His Holy Spirit upon you. I think you just really have to work on patience - trying to wait on God's timing and what a better way to learn than through CJ. She has the gift of putting into words what so many of us are thinking. God bless you on your journey!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by java:
<strong> I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic.</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cute! Logical Latin into Empathetic English. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are you getting tired? Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> … I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do…</strong>
and the reply from java:
<strong> If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah ha! So you have doctor’s handwriting or something? All your notes are in Greek so no one else can read them? Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Well, Mr. Technical, if you enjoy typing that’s an option that’s likely more legible, or just jot a note in your Daytimer or PDA. Whatever works for you, I leave it up to you and trust in your decision—just take the time to write a little something, okay??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all. I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty. So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble. So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.) Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaurant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I’m going to immediately rush out and buy you red socks and tell you they are charcoal! OOOOOoooo. Zing. Listen, in my book being color blind does not get you out of organizing your socks, but it does explain why you wear one light blue and one beige sock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (teasing is now official over)

Yes, OF COURSE you get to decide what is fun. I do not mean this as dramatically as it may sound, but I have no idea what may be fun for you. Even if you were a Feeler guy, everyone is an individual and has fun doing different stuff. Thus, to be clear, I am not here to judge or critique your definition of “fun”—just encourage you to enjoy yourself (however that may be) and do something you find pleasant. And thank you for not going to Hooters—I appreciate that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.

I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??</strong>
and the reply from Java:
<strong> Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong>Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. </strong>
and the reply from Tony:
<strong> fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by Java:
<strong> Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>…I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything! Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
<strong> See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me. Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Good for you. Peace is a good thing to feel. Especially after a long winter of pain, it can feel like spring coming back to life to just feel SERENITY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God. ...He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't say, Tony--I don't know how you fast or what kind of place your heart is in when you fast. When I fast, I prepare my heart to focus on God and be still all day (and I drink OJ so my blood sugar doesn't plummet). I use fasting as a reminder that I control my appetites--ALL of my appetites--and not the other way around. I use fasting as a way to FOCUS my thoughts on spiritual things like God and the people I am praying for, and not think of everyday carnal things like food.

Tony, have you ever been in the South when it is stinking hot out? Like in Georgia during the peak of summer, when the humidity hangs in the air like wet sheets? In the South, there is NO breeze and the heat and humidity just cling to you. Have you ever been there when it's like that? They have an interesting way of dealing with the unconditioner-ed heat down South--they practice being still. During the heat of the day like that, you sit STILL, drink iced tea or lemonade (or both combined), and fan yourself AND THAT'S IT. You don't move, you don't talk all fast and excited, and you just practice being still. This may be what you need to do--practice being still before God.

Oh, I'm telling ya--I'm off to bed. The old gal is finally going before 2am!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


CJ

CJ,

I have read what you said, but I know I'll need to read it dozens of times more to fully grasp this.

I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

I'll read and write a more thoughtful (and with feeling) response later.

Thanks,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Are you getting tired?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it.

I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly.

I did observe they were trying to lock up the church, so we went outside and talked a while longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.


I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??</strong>
and the reply from Java:
<strong> Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong>Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. </strong>
and the reply from Tony:
<strong> fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by Java:
<strong> Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>…I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I never said you. I said:

"I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions."

So I'm just making a general statement.

Seems we are both a bit defensive here. You point out my defensiveness in the following text.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>


Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
<strong> See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying about how she might feel. I do understand the point of the analogy.

Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you say above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards.

I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate.

I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.

It depends, in some situations, I'm suspicious, others, I'm trusting.

I'm sure this will not be a shock to you, but when I get suspicious, I start gathering facts before making a decision.

Or I just tune out.

Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.

So, I can anticipate what you might ask about that. How did I feel when I made love to my wife. I felt like we were really united, we were one person. I was very thankful for the opportunity to make love to her, I felt complete.

How did I feel when my D was born. Incredible joy. The only days that were more joyful were when I accepted Jesus as my savior at 10yo and my wedding day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}

Ok,

The emotional message, you are really uncomfortable with opening yourself up to me or to anyone in such a public setting. You mention this is your least favorite part.

If I understand what you are saying, you are not comfortable talking about yourself. Is that what you are saying?

It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.

Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These sure are getting long. I considered thinning this out a bit as we are getting some rather long posts now 8^)

Thanks again,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh good. Then you are at least familar with the concept I am talking about--a concept that most in the frozen Great White North would be unable to comprehend! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm not the kind of person who exists well in that kind of hot, humid environment. It feels wet on my skin all the time, and it's muggy! Anyway, one way that I learned to survive and kind of feel comfortable is to sit on the porch at sunset and early evening, basically sit still, fan myself very slowly with a hand fan, and drink a lemonade or Arnold Palmer. When you sit that still in the heat, any whisp of a breeze feels so soothing and cooling, and it doesn't have to be a big wind--just a gentle breath of wind is good.

This is similar to what I think you need to do to hear God's voice. Right now your life is hot and humid and muggy and moving and frantic. I believe you need to come to a stop, sit on the porch, enjoy the sunset, SIT STILL and feel the gentle breath of God. THEN you'll hear Him, whispering in the trees. Tony, trust me on this one...be still.


CJ

Good evening, Tony! How are you today?? I am energized, but of course it is my power time of day (night). However, I think I feel particularly energized today because I'm really gaining momentum on getting my coaching going, and I'm SO excited!

(Oh man--bad song on the radio. "Open Arms" by Journey. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Clearing throat. Well...let's get right down to it, shall we??

I asked you if you were getting tired translating into Empathetic English, and you replied:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it. ...I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you're right--of course. I forgot you are an "E" and E's gain energy by being with and talking to and whatever with other people. I'm an "I" and I LOVE people and live to relate to other people, but it expends my energy. I have to recharge my battery so that I CAN go use it on being with people!

*****

Then I asked you if there was some reason why you mentioned that you don't give hugs, and you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, I don't know, but it sounds to me like you were created to hug, Tony! I'm envisioning sort of a peach-fuzzy gnome--is that about right? haha! May I ask--do you not think to offer hugs, or are you uncomfortable offering them, or are they just about as interesting as the dictionary?

*****

In the next part, you wrote about my first "empathetic listening" paragraph, and the emotional words that you found (GOOD JOB!)--and the additional, more subtle emotional words that I mentioned:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[/qb] Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aaaaaahhh, Grasshopper...most wise. Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you that the additional words I suggested were not traditional "feeling" words. They were words that might have been considered "neutral" but that carried an emotional connoctation. Remember, Tony, our goal here is to STRETCH your emotional muscle and strengthen your empathetic skills.

*****

There was quite a discussion back and forth regarding people assigning their emotions (and I suppose thoughts) to another person, aka: projection. I had said that I had not previously considered that, and after looking at myself I could see that I did do that to people--assigning them the emotions I would probably have if I were in their situation. We were both hit nerves a little, but I think we both realize now that we have some nerves that are a little raw.

*****

Here's a fun suggestion you make:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my what an intriguing alternative. Okay, here's my thought: I like the comparison of each being strong and powerful in their own environment, and each having to make great sacrifices to be with the other in their environment. I don't like the fact that this is not how it feels AT ALL. I can not speak for your W, Tony, but I did not feel like a big, strong, powerful whale free to be myself in my own environment--equally regarded and equally large.

I also did not feel powerless though. I felt like if I were left to be myself, just as I like to be, I would be the happiest, most carefree, beautiful, delicate butterfly--cruising on the air, and landing on flowers. What a lovely life!!! I did not feel or seek "fearful" power from being the master of my surroundings--I moreso wanted the power that comes from being exactly the creature I was created to be: a butterfly.

I'm not powerless against the buffalo. I can sit on his nose and tickle him---I can land on his ear and talk to him--I can ride on his back and let him care for me--I can flutter my wings and get the flies off his fur--I can give him butterfly kisses with my eyelashes. There's a lot I can do that he can not! I can soar to the heights and he is always on the ground; I can flash my colors in the sun and he is always brown; I can flutter and be cute and he has to be a big tough buffalo; I can fit under a leaf and stay dry in the rain and he has to stand there and get wet; I can fly away if I'm in danger and he has to stay and fight and maybe get hurt.

I'm not sure if you can tell, but I really identify with the butterfly a LOT more than I identify with being a whale. To me, the whole point of the analogy is not who's more refined or who's "powerful" or not...it's that if each animal is being exactly the animal they are created to be, that the buffalo can inadvertantly cause serious damage to a butterfly. The buffalo is who he is: a strong, steady, dependable, majestic, handsome creature of the land--and the butterfly is who she is: a gentle, fragile, smart and beautiful, resourceful creature of the air.

(HERE'S THE BIG POINT) BUT... if they choose to be a couple together, they both need to adjust their strengths and weaknesses to the other!!

Hey...maybe YOU aren't a buffalo!

*****

I said in my post: "Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me." and you replied:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> giggle. Can I roll my eyes??

*****

I wrote: "I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on 'might this hurt someone? Why or why not?' " and I'd like to remember that and add that to our empathetic listening assignment tonight.

*****

Then we discussed the assignments. I wrote:
1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? ...What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards. ...I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! That DOES sound like fun!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, I love Bible studdy, because I LOVE to learn! Second, I love to talk (no DUH). Third I love lunch with guys...(giggle). Oh, man, I'm in a playful mood tonight. I'm glad you actually had some enjoyable times Tony. Good for you.

*****

Then, regarding assignment #2) Vocabulary: "Suspicious", you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate. ...I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...did you notice that you equate an emotional appeal to feeling inadequate? Why is that? I mean, does one mean the other in your view of the world? In my opinion, a person can be QUITE adequate as a parent, spouse, worker, and charitable-spiritual being and still appeal to their emotions to give just a little more than is "comfortable." But I digress. I'm not trying to jangle your raw nerve here, Tony, but could this be a clue to something bigger--that emotions and inadequacy are related??

to continue:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha! At 2am in the morning, I am talking to you the next morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Okay, I have to admit you have a point--when the infomercials come on appealing to my pocketbook I tune them out. I guess I just don't feel inadequate for not needing the Deal-A-Meal though!

Regarding the Stooges, I am a classic gal. I like Moe Howard, Larry Fine, and Curly Howard--and Larry is my fav. Once Curly was gone, I never could quite get into Shemp, and Joe Besser and Curly Joe weren't even Stooges in my book, even though they performed and did live stuff in front of audiences.

*****

Regarding assignment #3) Check-ins you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think feelings should feel "strong"? I'm just curious. Boy, it sounds like you had a pretty good day, emotionally. What made the difference? Was it hard to get in touch with your feelings, or easy? "Happy" is not an allowed vocabulary word (remember?) so may I suggest content or satisfied or joyful or ecstatic? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> STRETCH yourself!!

I'm a little surprised to hear you had no emotion this evening. I wonder what that feels like...maybe like the times when I have a quiet mind and just enjoy sitting with no thought, I suppose. It's like being in second gear and driving 45mph--just cruising...neither going fast nor slow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHOA!! Boy, Tony, it feels like that only once or twice in your lifetime--and even making love is a very special, sacred thing. I hope that's not the standard to which you hold all other feelings! OY VEY!!

*****

And finally, regarding assignment #4 empathetic listening, you indicated some of the emotional words within the text (good idea--very immediate and interactive).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very, very good job. I see you are really putting some effort into this and working hard. I'm so pleased! You're looking for the words that have emotional definitions AND looking for the words that tend to indicate or infer a feeling too. Good!

Now, regarding the emotional message, I hope you understand that this was partially (about 70/30) an assignment and partially an expression of how I really feel. I just AM an open person, and I have accepted the fact that part of the price I pay for being open is that occasionally I'm going to be hurt. To me, it's worth it to be open--the pay off is worth more than the isolation of being cut off.

However, in interpreting what I wrote, you did an EXCELLENT job.

You noticed that I felt uncomfortable opening up (I'm more cautious than I used to be). You made the leap from just being uncomfortable with you personally to being uncomfortable with the public forum, and that's a good association/link!! You mirrored back that you thought I was saying I was uncomfortable talking about myself, and then just to confirm, you asked me if that's what I meant. (EXTRA CREDIT FOR THAT ONE!!)

One part that you wrote, I want to actually address in my own voice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not going to kid you, Tony. It is often difficult for me to know whom to trust. I tend to WANT to trust people. One thing for which I am very thankful is that I have learned how to judge trustworthiness a lot more logically because of my ex's A. If the words match the actions, then I can trust. If the words do not match the actions, then do not trust.

And for me, it is a FORMIDABLE task to balance the fear of trusting and the desire to connect with people. I WANT to trust them!! I really want to connect to people and see the good in them and believe in them. Sigh. This is a good example of an instance where my brain must outweigh my feelings...even if I FEEL something, I need to trust my head and intuition. My feelings WILL eventually follow.

*****

You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you are a model student, Tony! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Can I clone you?? heehee That was a great w-t-f-s, very well applied and very well said. Thanks!

My next post will be the assignments for today.


CJ

1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.

2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?

3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> 1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fun, not really sure I've taken time to have fun today. I did enjoy my presentation. I got to talk for two hours 8^) briefing my the boss of my boss on my three largest customers.

Well, I did work out. Yes, buff is becoming an all encompasing word, LOL. I spent some time reading last months Car and Driver (or was it Road and Track) with the 2005 Corvette and Mustang on the cover.

I think pretty soon, I'll be back to 90 minute workouts. Pre-Cancer and pre-meeting my wife, I used to do aerobics 3 days a week. I did a 60 minute step class followed by a 30 minute abdominal class. I never asked any of the ladies out. I got asked out a few times, and another pair questioned my sexuality since they didn't see me leering or trying to pick them up.

I just smiled and said I was straight and pretty picky.

So I guess I had fun.

Oh! I had an old jar of peanut butter, almost empty, so I turned my dog loose on it. He loves peanut butter. I recall putting peanut butter on the belly of SD and then having him lick it off. That was hilarious.

Well tonight, I let him have the jar as I said, and he struggled, but got his tongue down there and licked it all out.

Then I saved about $7 on groceries on a $77 dollar ticket, so I got probably two weeks worth of food for me for under $70, out the door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do suppose that is rather rude. I don't know if it is from being self centered, or simply so many failed attempts at getting DW to share with me what she is doing, say with the girls, that I just don't bother anymore.

I dunno if it is chicken and egg thing or what. Maybe I never asked so she never told. However, it's more likely that I got tired of asking because I a conversation would go like this:

jSC: So what did you and the girls do?

Mrs jSC: We were out.

jSC: Where?

Mrs jSC: The store.

jSC: Which store?

Mrs jSC: The grocery store...

And so on. So I guess I'm just tired of asking anymore. Of course you read my writings. I posted my grocery list two weeks ago. BTW, if you can find that thread, I paid $109.51 before taxes on 2-26-04.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>
2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Confident. How does that feel? I feel tall. I recall when I was a young Lieutenant in the Army standing before my platoon, feeling like I was on top of the world. I was in charge! I felt 100 feet tall.

I'm confident most of the time. It's probably easier to say when I'm not confident. When I'm one on one with someone. Perhaps I'm afraid to open up. But I've always been more comfortable standing in front of a group of people and talking than having a heart to heart with one person.

My confidence sometimes manifests itself or appears to others as pride. However, it is mostly positive.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>
3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is part I really hate. I'm not sure I really feel anything.

I drove to work. I listened to the local Christian radio station, but I don't even remember what the lesson was about. Oh yeah, it was about the creation story.

Lunch was a fast dash from the office to meet with a co-worker having issues with a machine he was struggling to repair. I suppose there was some irritation as well. Not really mad, and certainly not happy.

I met this co-worker at Burger King. He ordered, I ordered a Whopper w/Cheese and Onion Rings. Well the guy two persons after me in line ordered TWO Whopper w/Cheese sandwhiches and was servered BEFORE me.

So I suggested that if they didn't have the onion rings ready, that they just give me the sandwhich. (Using logic, I figured they filled the order they could fill and got that customer out the door while they were waiting to cook my onion rings.) The manager says, Oh, I'll make your SANDWICH and makes me a fresh one, and goes and pulls out Onion Rings that had been sitting there all along.

So I thanked him, but was a little puzzled why the later customer got served first. It certainly didn't ruin my day, nor did I throw any sort of fit. I was just puzzled.

Dinner time, well, it came late as I mentioned before, after 7PM, as I finished my workout around 7pm. No real feelings there either. I don't really know how to explain it. I just grilled my salmon. Made a salad, adding some fresh tomato and onion, and drank a large mug of water.

Did some grocery shopping, was flirtatous with the lady at the Customer Service counter who told me two weeks ago all men were pigs (joking, I think?) So I felt a little flirtaous as I pushed my shopping cart full of fruit, vegetables, meat and very few bread or prepared food products.

(I did get a FREE candybar, and a FREE pack of tic-tacs with my coupons.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll add more later. I suddenly hit a wall, so I'll be up at 4:00am reading and doing the rest of my assignment.

However, I sorta did some of it in an e-mail already.

"No comments on the jokes?" asks a curious jSC

L8R,

Buff

Tony,

I'm not really in the mindset to study or even really to talk all that much. Can we go a little light on that tonite?

Let's talk cars. I read a wonderful article on the way Ford is reviving the Mustang GT--that was Road and Track I think. Also, my favorite article was a comparison of the new BMW and the Benz CLK series! Yowza! Those cars are BUILT!! There was a good little article on the new 2005 C6 Corvette convertible, and how it's a little smaller and tighter. Yum. My son is an absolute Corvette FREAK. I gotta stay up to date! Hey...did ya hear? Mazda is spicing up the Miata! Oh, I love those zippy little cars!! Just imagine the cutest little hot car ever with the smallest little middle-aged woman ever! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I like cars. Thanks for cheering me up. I think I might check out www.maximum-cars.com for a few minutes of enjoyment.

Sigh. Okay...here's the truth. I just don't feel like being chipper. I'm off to read my car mags and think about restoring a GTO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


CJ

<small>[ March 12, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

CJ,

I got a late start today. So I'll come back to this later. It's probably good to take a break anyway.

I haven't forgotten, I've just not come up with the time to give it much thought yet.

We have 4 of our 6 SSE's out today in various and sundry fashion so it could become insanely busy at the drop of a hat.

Tony

I started to work on this and have to give it up, but I want to leave my text here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ: <strong>

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This last post didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did I miss something or did it not post right or something??

Did you have a good weekend off? Are you about ready to resume your studies??

Let's go over the 4 normal assignments:

1) Fun

2) Vocabulary

3) Check-in

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic response with emphasis on "How might the writer be feeling" and "Does the writer hurt?"


Did you do anything fun over the weekend?? Remember, you don't necessarily have to write what you did, just remember to let yourself have some joy in your life every day.

I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".

I realize that check-in is difficult for you because there are some times when you do not feel as if you have an emotion at that time; however I would like you to keep checking in with yourself four times a day--and try to dig a little deeper. Do you feel something but your thoughts are so strong that they drown it out? Do you feel something that you are purposely trying to NOT feel?

And finally, empathetic listening and empathetic responding. This is going to be a trick, Tony, and you'll understand when you read it. Just do your best to listen with emotional understanding and try to respond with what you think the writer is feeling:

"I usually work 8am - 5pm, but tomorrow I have a 6:30am meeting I HAVE to go to or it will look bad to my boss. So I asked my exH if he would mind driving the kids to school in the morning and he said he wanted them to stay at his house EVERY Sunday night! I just need some help, and now he's trying to take my kids away from me! Why can't he ever just help me and make my life a little easier without throwing it up in my face? If I ever admit I can't do it all myself, he uses it as a weapon against me, and yet I CAN'T do it all by myself and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate. If I give him an inch, he never says thank you--he takes a mile! AARRGGHH!!!"

So Tony, what emotions does this writer feel? Dig deeper and look for some of the more subtle emotional words. And Tony, how might you respond to this writer to indicate that you can understand how they feel? What words could you use?

Stretch yourself here, buddy. TRY--you can do it. You are doing so well, and I am so impressed with your progress! Let's get going on our week.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> This last post didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did I miss something or did it not post right or something??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing wrong on your end. I started to finish up my response and then was called away, so I just posted what I had, which was the message broken up into two quotes of yours I was going to answer.

Then I got busy with life, and late night is not a good time for me personally to try to do an inventory, checkin or vocabulary lessons.

I NEVER, and I do mean NEVER pulled all nighters to study. I'd get up very early in the morning if I wanted to study some more, but NEVER an all nighter to study.

I did pull a few of them to complete programming or other design projects, but not to just study. What is the point of wearing out your brain that way?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>

Did you have a good weekend off? Are you about ready to resume your studies??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I'm ready to return to my mental, physical, and emotional workout routines. Gotta be buff in a well rounded fashion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>


Let's go over the 4 normal assignments:

1) Fun

2) Vocabulary

3) Check-in

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic response with emphasis on "How might the writer be feeling" and "Does the writer hurt?"


Did you do anything fun over the weekend?? Remember, you don't necessarily have to write what you did, just remember to let yourself have some joy in your life every day.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I had my daughter the whole weekend, so we had a lot of fun.

Friday night we just cuddled on the couch most of the evening, snacking on popcorn and watched some Disney cartoons. I put her in the bathtub to splash around for a while, did a devotional with her and put her to bed.

Saturday, we cleaned up a bit because a friend of hers was going to spend the day with us. We then went out to Chuck E. Cheese's where I got in my fix to be competitive (not competing with the girls) but against the games. Rolled a 430 in skee-ball but couldn't get to the magical 450 and the bonus tickets. However, we did win 832 tickets so we brought home two bags full of plastic junk.

The girls played in the back yard with the dog and each other, then came inside for dress up before I took D's friend back home.

We had dinner, watched a Disney movie, ate popcorn and went to bed.

On Sunday, pretty much the same thing, went to church, out to lunch and I then spent a couple of hours in the back yard with Camy. She tried to help me rake the yard. (I have tons of gumballs and a few leaves and twigs that need policing up) and then I tried to listen to cartalk for about an hour.

She wanted no part of that, and kept bugging me about hanging a different swing on the swing set. I've been trying to work on her respect for others and showing her boundaries, so I did something I've done before. I told her I would hang the swing after the show was over. (It was about 1/3rd done when she asked.) She went away and then came back, so finally I told her that I did say I would do it after the show, and I would tell her when the show was over so she didn't need to keep asking, but that if she persisted in asking, that I would NOT hang the swing.

Well about 10 minutes later she came back and asked, and I had to enforce the boundary condition I set up.

She was mad, and I told her that I would hang it next time she was here now.

Perhaps I should have just recorded the show and listened to it later. However, sometimes Daddys need a break from a non-stop 5yo girl as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>


I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, I can relate to this word. Gee, how do I start. I never met my father face to face since I could talk. I guess there was some time I "saw" him in the court house during the paternity suit, but I'm pretty sure I was more interested in a binkie or a bottle than him.

I did finally speak to him after tracking him down on the day after Thanksgiving last year. I've spent more time in correspondance with my step-mom than with him.

Or is the the feeling that I'm not close to my mom. In fact, when I wanted her to just listen to me about this whole matter, maybe offer some perspective from a womans POV, she only wanted to talk about her computer problems. Or the fact that she worked some strange hours and left me with my great great aunt and uncle most of the time, until I was about 13 and could essentially take care of myself.

Or is it when I found out that W was lying to me about there being someone else?

Oh this is one I've felt nearly everyday of my life or at least known it was there. My therapist says that I'm very self reliant because of this. That I'm very hard on myself because I've had to be in order to survive, physically and emotionally.

So feeling abandoned feels like I am alone. Now in my HEAD I know that God is there with me, but often in my heart I don't feel this.

Maybe this is why I have such a hard time trusting God? I've been so let down, so disappointed by many of the people in my life. People that are supposed to love and care for me, that it's hard for me to trust.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>


I realize that check-in is difficult for you because there are some times when you do not feel as if you have an emotion at that time; however I would like you to keep checking in with yourself four times a day--and try to dig a little deeper. Do you feel something but your thoughts are so strong that they drown it out? Do you feel something that you are purposely trying to NOT feel?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I can check in now, after writing what I wrote above. Tears are streaming down my face right now as I write, as those feelings that I'm alone facing all of this take over. It's a mix of that and anger. Anger with myself for not being more sensitive and less self-centered, and frustration that W doesn't see what this is doing to me or how I don't want to be so hard shelled and apparently insensive. Confusion as to how someone who is supposedly so sensitive and caring could act as if my feelings don't matter and further confused as to why she would want to hide her feelings from me, or why she wouldn not want to give me feedback when I ask her about things such as how what I do impacts her, or even just answering the message about Easter Sunday.

It's the confusion that just makes me want to give up on the relationship. I don't need more frustration and confusion in my life, and if I look at the physical aspect of it all, I'm self sufficient, and am not sure I want to open my heart to yet another person and risk abandonment again.

I want THIS relationship to work. For once I'd like a relationship with someone I love to work without that person wholly abandoning me.

But I know in my head that God had given me everything I need. Maybe not every desire of my heart, but everything I need right now.

But that knowledge doesn't calm my troubled heart at most times, and that is one of my daily struggles.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>


And finally, empathetic listening and empathetic responding. This is going to be a trick, Tony, and you'll understand when you read it. Just do your best to listen with emotional understanding and try to respond with what you think the writer is feeling:

"I usually work 8am - 5pm, but tomorrow I have a 6:30am meeting I HAVE to go to or it will look bad to my boss. So I asked my exH if he would mind driving the kids to school in the morning and he said he wanted them to stay at his house EVERY Sunday night! I just need some help, and now he's trying to take my kids away from me! Why can't he ever just help me and make my life a little easier without throwing it up in my face? If I ever admit I can't do it all myself, he uses it as a weapon against me, and yet I CAN'T do it all by myself and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate. If I give him an inch, he never says thank you--he takes a mile! AARRGGHH!!!"

So Tony, what emotions does this writer feel? Dig deeper and look for some of the more subtle emotional words. And Tony, how might you respond to this writer to indicate that you can understand how they feel? What words could you use?

Stretch yourself here, buddy. TRY--you can do it. You are doing so well, and I am so impressed with your progress! Let's get going on our week.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you say "and now he's trying to take my kids away from me!" I think you are being a bit selfish if I may be so bold. My heart goes out for this guy, I feel like I identify with him. So I ask you to consider, are they your kids and your kids alone, or are they the children of both you and your husband.

When you say things like weapon or inadequate, that you can't do it on your own, I think you view this as a competition. I feel your pain, but I also have to wonder if it is self-inflicted. So I ask you, why are you competing with him? Do you derive your self worth by being a better parent than he does? What is wrong with rejoycing that you have an exH who is happy to be part of the lives of your children?

I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, because I hear you are angry, however, I feel some sympathy for your children. They probably just want to spend time with your exH. How do they feel about spending Sunday nights with him?

It's hard for me to be very sympathetic or empathetic with you because I'm in his shoes. So I hope you will accept my acknowledement of how you feel and my earnest reflections on the feelings of others. I do know this must hurt deeply for you. You lost someone you love, so are you afraid you will lose your children to him as well? Like I said, I don't know exactly how you feel. What I do know is that treating it as a competition is probably more harmful than good.

So finally, the only thing I can suggest is that you check your motives. Do your feelings really have the best interests of the children at heart, or are you trying to protect your own heart?

It's a tough situation you are in, divorce is tough. But I just want to remind you that it's not only tough on you, it is tough on the entire family.

This is probably not the empathetic response you wanted, however, it is what is on my heart right now.

Tony

Tony,

You're a cutie. I am at work and cannot write a response to your entire post, but I need to remind you of something. Just because I wrote it in my post does not mean it is "me" talking--nor does it mean that's what I think or feel or do. When I write empathetic listening/empathetic response paragraphs, sometimes it's my own words, and sometimes I am trying to stretch you a little and I write what I imagine someone else might be thinking/feeling. In my post above, I wrote what I imagined your W might be thinking/feeling, and thus I was hoping you might practice responding empathetically to her. I used her voice in a literary sense--not my own.

FYI: I have on occasion had the fear that my exH is trying to "take the kids" but I recognize that it is a triggered fear response and my own issue, not his or theirs. When I feel that way, I'm usually feeling insecure about something else, and I remind myself of all I've done for my kids, remind myself that they love me and always will, and remind myself that they are not only free to love their dad--I encourage it.

Soooo...9 times out of 10, when I feel that way, it is my problem and I need to work with myself about feeling insecure.

More later, but ((hugs)) and thanks for being brave enough to stand up to me and tell me the truth even if it might not be what I wantto hear. Good job!


CJ

CJ,

I know what you were doing. I wrote what I probably would really say if the conversation was a conversation and not exchanged messages on a message board.

Plus, it's exactly something I've heard. When I told her I wanted more time with our daughter and that I think it's reasonable that I have more than one weekend every two weeks her response, verbatim was, "Why are you trying to take away my daughter?"

I guess it is hard for me to be sympathetic, empathetic or whatever when I feel like I'm speaking with a deranged selfish person.

I guess I DON'T see how spending time with my daughter is TAKING her away from her.

I guess the logical part of me wants to say, let's see. You moved out without discussing this with me, you informed me that you were taking our daughter, and now you want to divorce.

I really don't see my desire to spend more time with our daughter as me taking her away from you. In fact, I think she has essentially taken our daughter away from me. I used to be able to see her everyday. Now, I may or may not get to talk to her on the phone, let alone see her.

So tell me, how do I become empathetic and understanding when the facts contradict what she is emoting?

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Nothing wrong on your end. I started to finish up my response and then was called away, so I just posted what I had, which was the message broken up into two quotes of yours I was going to answer.

Then I got busy with life, and late night is not a good time for me personally to try to do an inventory, checkin or vocabulary lessons.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK—cool. I was just checking if my feelings got in the way of my logic again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I NEVER, and I do mean NEVER pulled all nighters to study. I'd get up very early in the morning if I wanted to study some more, but NEVER an all nighter to study. …I did pull a few of them to complete programming or other design projects, but not to just study. What is the point of wearing out your brain that way? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh BOY are we ever opposites! I think I pull and all-nighter EVERY night. If I try to wake up early in the morning, it hurts and feels like I have the flu—but I can stay up all night easily. In fact, if I need to be up at 3am or 4am, I just stay up all night because it’s easier for me. Well, different strokes for different folks I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> She … kept bugging me about hanging a different swing on the swing set. I've been trying to work on her respect for others and showing her boundaries, so I did something I've done before. I told her I would hang the swing after the show was over. (It was about 1/3rd done when she asked.) She went away and then came back, so finally I told her that I did say I would do it after the show, and I would tell her when the show was over so she didn't need to keep asking, but that if she persisted in asking, that I would NOT hang the swing. … Well about 10 minutes later she came back and asked, and I had to enforce the boundary condition I set up. … She was mad, and I told her that I would hang it next time she was here now. … Perhaps I should have just recorded the show and listened to it later. However, sometimes Daddys need a break from a non-stop 5yo girl as well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Daddy’s sure do need a break from their princess every now and then, and princesses need to learn to respect Daddy-time, so don’t beat yourself up over this. Ya done good. You were firm and consistent without being abusive, and this is exactly the kind of discipline a child needs. Thanks for being such a good dad!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:
<strong> I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".</strong>

and the response by Tony:
<strong> CJ, I can relate to this word. Gee, how do I start? I never met my father face to face since I could talk. … Or is the feeling that I'm not close to my mom. In fact, when I wanted her to just listen to me about this whole matter, maybe offer some perspective from a womans POV, she only wanted to talk about her computer problems. Or the fact that she worked some strange hours and left me with my great great aunt and uncle most of the time, until I was about 13 and could essentially take care of myself. … Or is it when I found out that W was lying to me about there being someone else?

Oh this is one I've felt nearly everyday of my life or at least known it was there. My therapist says that I'm very self reliant because of this...that I'm very hard on myself—because I've had to be in order to survive, physically and emotionally.

So feeling abandoned feels like I am alone. Now in my HEAD I know that God is there with me, but often in my heart I don't feel this.

Maybe this is why I have such a hard time trusting God? I've been so let down, so disappointed by many of the people in my life. People that are supposed to love and care for me, that it's hard for me to trust.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay—boy I didn’t mean to start an avalanche. Are you okay? By okay, I mean, are you able to handle this or is this nerve too raw right now? I understand you are not a Feeler personality type, so I suspect having a big, raw emotion dumped in your lap can be a little hard to handle. Do you need a break or a joke to get ahold??

You have hit upon quite a deep topic here—one I’m sure that many people here can totally identify with. Our FOO’s were dysfunctional and did us great harm. Our fathers did not stay and provide a safe and secure home—and our mothers did not nurture and cherish and support us emotionally. We are all too familiar with the feeling of abandonment because our spouses have left us and have often taken our children away. And sadly many of us, myself included, learned habits that helped us survive as children that do not serve us well as adults.

Tony, I do not care to share my whole life story here and now, but I do want to let you know that I understand how you feel. I also understand what it’s like to be so self-reliant, because of course, it’s really not so much that you depend on yourself in a healthy way—it’s that you’re afraid to let go and trust other people because as soon as you believe in them, they dump you. Yes, your head knows that God is there, but PEOPLE…humans…are not. They leave. They disappear. They desert.

I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m so sorry that you have not had the comfort of a dependable rock of a family who is there for you when you need them. I’m sorry you have had to live emotionally isolated in order to survive. And trust me when I say that I will be mindful of this as we write here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, I can check in now, after writing what I wrote above. Tears are streaming down my face right now as I write, as those feelings that I'm alone facing all of this take over. It's a mix of that and anger. Anger with myself for not being more sensitive and less self-centered, and frustration that W doesn't see what this is doing to me or how I don't want to be so hard shelled and apparently insensitive. Confusion as to how someone who is supposedly so sensitive and caring could act as if my feelings don't matter and further confused as to why she would want to hide her feelings from me, or why she would not want to give me feedback when I ask her about things such as how what I do impacts her, or even just answering the message about Easter Sunday.

It's the confusion that just makes me want to give up on the relationship. I don't need more frustration and confusion in my life, and if I look at the physical aspect of it all, I'm self sufficient, and am not sure I want to open my heart to yet another person and risk abandonment again.

I want THIS relationship to work. For once I'd like a relationship with someone I love to work without that person wholly abandoning me.

But I know in my head that God had given me everything I need. Maybe not every desire of my heart, but everything I need right now.

But that knowledge doesn't calm my troubled heart at most times, and that is one of my daily struggles. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here’s a lotion tissue, and here’s a shoulder. You won’t scare me away with a few tears and some honking sounding blowing. Tony, you’re not as insensitive and selfish as you’ve been told, and there are some things in a divorce that we will never understand. So much of affairs and divorce make NO SENSE whatsoever, but sometimes we need to accept the fact that we will never know. What I think and feel about what was done to me and my spouse’s affair and our divorce may never be known or said. No one may ever know or understand what happened or how much I hurt—because no one may ever ask me. And I’m pretty sure I will never understand why my ex did what he did or behaved like he did, because I am just not wired that way. You may never have the chance to understand how she could supposedly be so sensitive and crush you. You may never understand period, and I know that’s hard for a Thinker to accept. Your brain keeps whirring away trying to figure it out.

Just claim the promises: “I will never leave you or forsake you” and “Behold, I am with you always.” Even when humans fail us and hurt us. I know that you know God is with us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> When you say "and now he's trying to take my kids away from me!" I think you are being a bit selfish if I may be so bold. My heart goes out for this guy, I feel like I identify with him. So I ask you to consider, are they your kids and your kids alone, or are they the children of both you and your husband.

When you say things like weapon or inadequate, that you can't do it on your own, I think you view this as a competition. I feel your pain, but I also have to wonder if it is self-inflicted. So I ask you, why are you competing with him? Do you derive your self worth by being a better parent than he does? What is wrong with rejoicing that you have an exH who is happy to be part of the lives of your children?

I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, because I hear you are angry, however, I feel some sympathy for your children. They probably just want to spend time with your exH. How do they feel about spending Sunday nights with him?

It's hard for me to be very sympathetic or empathetic with you because I'm in his shoes. So I hope you will accept my acknowledgement of how you feel and my earnest reflections on the feelings of others. I do know this must hurt deeply for you. You lost someone you love, so are you afraid you will lose your children to him as well? Like I said, I don't know exactly how you feel. What I do know is that treating it as a competition is probably more harmful than good.

So finally, the only thing I can suggest is that you check your motives. Do your feelings really have the best interests of the children at heart, or are you trying to protect your own heart?

It's a tough situation you are in, divorce is tough. But I just want to remind you that it's not only tough on you, it is tough on the entire family.

This is probably not the empathetic response you wanted; however, it is what is on my heart right now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you’re right. This is not the empathetic listening or response that I was hoping for. I don’t really want to get into a fact-war with you, but there are some VERY serious misunderstandings here.

First, I do not feel as if my exH is trying to steal the children from me—in fact, in real life, I wish he wanted to spend more time with them and I wish he more fully understood what it means to take the time to raise a child. He has been a distant, workaholic father who spent time with the kids “if he had some free time” (which he rarely has). If anything, in real life, I go OUT OF MY WAY to encourage and promote my kids spending as much time as they ask for, request and desire—when he will take them. He sees them or speaks with them DAILY at length whenever he wishes. I just wish HE understood the idea that they are not just my kids, and that he has some responsibility to them too. Remember, he left us TWICE for more than six months—moved out of state—didn’t send any money or help in any way—and did not care if his own children lived or died. I understand they are not just mine.

On the rare occasion when I do feel like he is trying to take them away, I realize that it is a trigger reaction on my part, probably initiated by some insecurity of my own—so I figure out what my problem is and work on it myself. I don’t put it on him, I don’t blame him, and I don’t involve the kids. It’s my issue.

My kids are WELCOME to go to his house any time they want, and stay overnight any night they want. I have some concern due to his abusive nature, mental health, and sexual addiction that the kids will learn unhealthy habits from him, but the kids and I have a very good relationship and I’ve taught them many good ways to deal with these issues. Sadly, my D spends one night a week with her dad if he’s in town, and my S does not spend any because it’s not convenient for dad’s schedule.

This is why I wrote to you that I was not writing something with my own voice. I was writing with my imagination of what your W might be feeling, and let me be frank with you my friend. I admire you pretty well and think fairly highly of you, and yet this post has quite frankly stirred up some anger in me. Yeah, I’m a bit angry. I don’t and didn’t deserve this post, and I don’t appreciate that you assumed that I treat my ex like you are being treated. I feel that you projected all over me, and I hope you will get a towel and clean up this mess.

I’m a little steamed. The way this post started off, it seemed as if you were really hurting, and I really wanted to respond to you in a sympathetic way. But I’ve decided I don’t deserve to be snapped at because you are hurting.

Time out.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> ... When I told her I wanted more time with our daughter and that I think it's reasonable that I have more than one weekend every two weeks her response, verbatim was, "Why are you trying to take away my daughter?"

I guess it is hard for me to be sympathetic, empathetic or whatever when I feel like I'm speaking with a deranged selfish person.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take that remark a bit personally. I am not a deranged selfish person and I doubt your W is either. I suspect she is insecure and your D gives her a reason to get up in the morning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So tell me, how do I become empathetic and understanding when the facts contradict what she is emoting? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Emotions have little or nothing to do with the facts. Here is how you might respond empathetically:

"I realize that you were just asking for help, and I ended up throwing a request in there. I bet that felt like a surprise for which you weren't ready. I don't want to take D away from you or harm the relationship that you two have, but I do hurt when I'm not able to be with her, and I am her parent too. I love her and miss her very much, so I was hoping... Meanwhile, I would be happy to support you in any way I can, and I look forward to the chance to spend a few more precious hours with our girl!"

Enough for tonight.


CJ

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

CJ,

I didn't mean to snap at you. I thought you were playing the role of W, and I had no idea you would take what I wrote so personally.

Well, my pager is really going off, that is what woke me, so I'm off to fix something I can really fix.

Please understand that this issue is really a sore issue for me.

I want to be empathetic, and I want to be heard. I still feel that my W is being "not so nice" when she says things like I should be happy or satisfied with the time I have and I should not take it personally when she says she hates that she has to ask me to watch our D one extra night.

You know, it does hurt, this whole stinking mess hurts. So I'm going to get some things wrong from time to time.

I just didn't think you would take what I said so personally.

I guess I truly don't understand how you can take this so personally not being involved. I image she has even deeper responses that I can't even begin to fathom.

Well off to handle a couple of service calls. We had three come in at once and there is only one FE...

Tony