I'm off to bed early tonight. Trying to catch up on my rest...

I hope my comments are satisfactory <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony
Proud to be an ESTJ, LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my, java, I have given you entirely the wrong impression. In fact, I tend to like ESTJ's! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I most certainly do NOT think ESTJ is a "bad" thing--any moreso than INFP is a "bad" thing. It's just completely different that I am! The way that I interpret data and live in my world is quite different from the way that you interpret data and live in YOUR world, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

When I was with my exH, I remember thinking that it would be "ideal" to be with someone who was also an INFP or perhaps was one letter off, like INTP or something. We would understand each other so much easier! Then I realized that by living with someone my natural opposite, I had such an opportunity to learn about differences. Even though I may filter data through my feelings, it is to my advantage to at least learn about people who filter data through their throughts (analyzing, evaluating, logic). It's GOOD for me to learn how to thing (haha)!

As for the rest of it, I have to be honest with you. It's midnight here in the Mile High City, and I'm beat. I have a headache from trying to keep my eyes open! OY!

I'll write more tomorrow, I promise, but for tonight, I'm hitting the hay.


CJ

CJ,

It's just the roll eyes emoticon. Too me, it's not a positive expression.

Tony

Okay,

"NOTE TO SELF" The rolleyes emoticon is not a positive one for Tony.

Got it.

Just so you know, I always that that was an "oh brother" halfway funny one; as in when I said I like ESTJ's... Well my exH is an ESTJ and I did love him truly, and my son is an ESTJ cookie cutter of his dad and I love and like him, and most of the people I enjoy as people have at least E-T-and some portions of J. So, yep, I'm a sucker for ESTJ's and somehow end up enjoying them. So I did the rolleyes to indicate, "It figures--haha!"

I don't know what it is. I am wiped out today. I'm going to try to get to this thread earlier today than usual, so I can get to bed at 9pm!! Wouldn't that just be a miracle! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Peace be with you today, Java.


CJ

CJ,

I hope you are recovered. I don't know how much time I'll have the next few days. W asked me to keep our daughter until Wednesday morning.

Tony

Hey, Tony...

Are you ready to come back and get some schoolin'?

I will do my very best to communicate some "Feeler" type concepts to a "Thinker" type audience, but if you do not understand try to bear in mind it's like teaching a French class in German--something gets lost in translation.

Shall we start the Penalties chapter tomorrow night? I'm game if you are!

Meanwhile, tonight, I'll pray that God will use my typing to communicate with you, and pray that God will soften your heart to receive understanding. Remember, the goal here is not a witty, conceptual debate or evaluation of the facts...the goal is to gain some kind of understanding of what your wife may be feeling. If "facts" are inaccurate, listen for the message and not for perfect facts--okay?? Will you try?

Good! Me Too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, it is that 1am hour and I must retire! I've had a hurtful, triggery day and I hate when I get all emotional like that, but I do. The best remedy is sometimes just to let the day end.


CJ

I probably won't have time until Wed night, but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL

Otherwise, if you feel lead to share something, don't let me hold you back.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> ...but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Thank you, Tony, for joining in the fun! As long as you stay logical and analytical, I'll stay all touchy-feeley...okay?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I may write something tonight, because I have some time, but I'll understand if you can't write until Wednesday. Have fun with your little girl!!


CJ

Ok,

Penalties:

1. Recruiting. How will this make my wife feel? (After all, it's about feelings, right?) It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for Lori, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her.

So I try to avoid her family as much as possible.

2. Blaming, well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt, even knowing before we married that I wasn't really in tune with feelings. However, I did tell her that I didn't want to run over her feelings (this conversation was before we married) and that I may need help understanding how she feels.

But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself.

This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer.

So in that sense, I can understand how she feels, that she just doesn't want to do the work anymore. We both worked hard in our own ways, independently to build a marriage.

This doesn't work very well.

So in some ways, I can see how she feels about blame, because even blaming her makes ME feel bad.

This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her.

3. Critical Spirit

Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical, and how about 10 days ago, while on-call I noticed that the only cars I remembered on the roads were the ones with significant defects.

Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticsm is even more dangerous.

4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enought space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit.

5. Setting a Time Frame

Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.

6. Displaying Affection

No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable.

7. Overkilling

Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capible of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counselled me to see what I could do.

8. Underestimating Hurt

Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. Over two years ago, I asked her how we could get an hour a day together and asked her to tell me when she wanted to do that, what had to be done in order to have that time.

I must have asked for that on three seperate occassions and she never did say when she wanted to do this. Why didn't I just make a plan? Because I wanted her to feel like she had a lot of say in how we got to do that. If she wanted me to plan the whole thing, I would have been happy to do so, if she would have just said, it's a great idea, you run with it.

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really. I do wish she would have taken my requests to spend more time together, just focusing on US or what was on our minds more seriously, but I didn't push for it either, nor did I present my own detailed plan, but simply the rough idea that we needed time alone with each other each day.

Well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis.

9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it?

That's my quick take over the last 30 minutes or so of thought and re-reading.

Tony

Must be working on patience now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony

Ah, Java!

I am so sorry and hope you will accept my apology. I'm not dead, but I have broken my typing fingers (heehee...). No, not really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I had to do the company's payroll AND my daughter is in a play that is running Wed-Fri. this week and Thur-Fri. next week.

HOWEVER...

I have managed to write quite a lengthy reply which probably will not fit on just one post! OY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So, I have decided to post TWO (count 'em) posts, so that you no longer have wait with baited breath.


CJ

The suspense is killing me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I'm off to the autoparts store. Seems the Prizm may need some new struts. I know there is a cracked exhaust manifold as well, but that seals up quite nicely when it warms up, and besides, it passed emissions on 2/13/04 (same day I got a copy of her divorce filing)


Thanks,

Tony

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony,

Okay, here we go into the real meat of this book. These next two chapters are the most difficult for me to write about and remember, so let&#8217;s be a little gentle here. On the other hand, whilst these chapters are not so easy to face, these are also the chapters that bring the most hope if you can really take them to heart, eliminate pride, and get real with yourself.

By now, my ESTJ friend, you must know that winning back your wife is not a one-step process. There is no magic word or magic deed that you can do to make your wife go, &#8220;Oh, I love him again!&#8221; but there is a plan. There is a step-by-step process that can lead to winning your wife back. To me, that is encouraging, because as long as I can see there is a plan and hope of finally getting to the prize at the end, then I can endure. My advice to you, my brother, would be to work the plan. Do not skip steps, do not rush ahead and try to do all the steps at the same time, and do not belittle the process. Take each step and DWELL on each step&#8230; Really take the time to apply it to you and see how it affects your life. The tendency is to want to solve the problem now, now, NOW-but work the plan and find some encouragement in seeing movement and improvement and STEPS.

The PLAN:
1. Recognize the characteristics within you that are decreasing love and harming reconciliation. Get Real with yourself, be open-minded and humble, and do better.
2. Learn the things that will open a closed spirit, and develop those behaviors so you do them more!
3. Discover how to HONOR your wife and children, and start practicing it!
4. Practice sacrificial love-become a servant to your wife and family
5. Initiate change in yourself
6. Understand why some women are not able to reconcile
7. The Ultimate Goal: draw closer to the Lord
8. Develop patience and persistence
9. Find accountability partners
10. The pre-reconciliation report


PENALTIES:
1) Recruiting others to &#8220;your side&#8221;-don&#8217;t share your side with your kids or her family.
At this time, I can pretty well guarantee you that your wife feels abandoned by the man who was supposed to love her forever-even if she has OM. She&#8217;s probably just so tickled that someone found her cute, smart, funny, pretty, etc. that her defenses were lowered. Anyway, by recruiting others to your side, she will feel isolated, cut-off, and abandoned by her friends and family too. Speaking as a divorced chick, one of the things that hurt me the worst at the time was that my ex&#8217;s family just stopped speaking to me. It also hurt me when several of our business-associate-friends took his side so they could continue doing business with him, and never once even inquired if I were alive or dead or needed help. She already feels abandoned by you-don&#8217;t take her friends and family and support system too.

NEVER (I mean this&#8230;NEVER) bad-mouth their mother in front of your kids-no matter what she does. This is horribly, incredibly hard to do, because you want the kids to understand what you&#8217;re doing and why&#8230;but if you do bad-mouth their mother, the kids will be mad at YOU not at HER for how she behaved. On the other hand, if you do you best to uplift and promote their mom to the kids, they will remember that you always spoke well of her and made it not seem like a sin for them to love their own mother. This is important, Tony!! As the kids grow older, they will understand more and more and more; in fact, it never ceases to amaze me when my kids tell me what they understand or how they feel about what happened, because they get it and they came to that conclusion on their own.

BTW, recruiting can take less obvious forms than talking to friends and relatives and kids, too. Recruiting can also be going to the church&#8230;to the service she likes (&#8220;because you like it too!&#8221;) so that she has no spiritual home. Recruiting can be putting out the false façade of being a pillar of the community and beating her behind closed doors so no one will believe her. Recruiting can be talking to all the teachers at the kids&#8217; school about her and what she did. Do you catch the theme here? Recruiting is when you remove, deny, eliminate or &#8220;confiscate&#8221; her support.

Now, you may wonder, &#8220;Why should I let her lie to her parents so that they support her divorcing me?? She needs to have a little LESS support so she&#8217;ll come to her senses!&#8221; I can honestly say that I do wish friends and families were a little more courageous and stood up to their loved ones when they are clearly wrong; however, everyone deserves and NEEDS to have a family that loves them and accepts them as they are. If you interfere with her family, she will most likely see that as you interfering with someone loving her and accepting her&#8230;and she already associates you with lack of love, so don&#8217;t go there.

2) Blaming her for your marital issues-&#8220;you&#8221; statements are devastating.
When you blame her for the issues your marriage is having, there are two things going on: you are looking externally for fault, and you are not looking internally at how you contributed. Now, it would be quite easy for me to say, &#8220;I&#8217;m divorced because my exH was and abusive, mentally ill sex addict&#8221; but then I would be assigning blame externally rather than looking internally at how I contributed. My exH MAY BE all those things, but that has nothing to do with me, nor does it come close to solving our marital issues, and it certainly inhibits (if not prevents) reconciliation! Blaming is fear to face yourself. Blame is an accusation, condemnation, or criticism of someone else. Blame is holding another person responsible for you, your feelings, or the situation. Blame is very, VERY destructive and cuts to the bone-especially when someone is really trying hard and still gets the guilt job. Ultimately, though, blame is a defense mechanism to avoid looking at yourself and admitting what YOU did wrong!

In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to &#8220;make him happy&#8221; and &#8220;not make him angry&#8221; and &#8220;keep the peace&#8221; etc. I tried to control my exH&#8217;s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). Especially toward the end, I made the conscious choice to be just as hurtful and cruel and wounding to him as he was to me, because I got sick of taking it from him. I nagged, nagged, nagged. I did not let him be responsible for his own choices. I was demanding; I was clingy; I was tired and crabby all the time. I made no effort to be attractive. I allowed him to treat me poorly, and I allowed him to trample all of my boundaries.

My point here is not to have a litany of what a loser CJ is, but rather to point out that I got real with myself. My exH may have had his problems, but they are his to deal with-I had problems of my own that * I * had to deal with! If I had blamed him, none of my own issues would have been addressed or changed.

Furthermore, as a woman whose husband was a blamer, I felt HORRIBLE guilt and an unending burden to fix everything and make it right&#8230;and I couldn&#8217;t. Part of my heart actually believed it was my fault that he went out looking for affairs. Part of my Self was diminished every time I took the blame for one of his or our issues. It felt like carrying a millstone around my neck, and every time that stone felt a little lighter, he would add more weight to it. My self-esteem was demolished and my own self-image was tarnished. Also, speaking as a Feeler person (INFP), each blaming statement felt like a scourge-there&#8217;s a little whip and cut in my heart every time I&#8217;m blamed for something that&#8217;s not my responsibility, and eventually all those little cuts add up to a ground-up heart. That&#8217;s the price that your &#8220;feeler&#8221; loved one pays when you blame them rather than taking personal responsibility.

There is more to come, but for now, this is a lot to digest and I'm going to end here. I hope this stimulates some thoughts, questions, and understanding--and this evening I will post more about Penalties and see if I can respond to what you wrote too!!


CJ

Wow CJ. Pretty cool, and extensive, advise. We can all relate so well to specifics others are going through. Perhaps a little advice for me, a simple, hard-working guy, well devoted to his family (wife and children). Yet one whose wife is intent on leaving regardless.

Java - be cool and leave the vindication to a higher power. Your job is to love, whatever that calls you to do - just do it. Life's complexities are just that... complex. The simpler we can break things down, the easier it is to deal / manage matters. Best of luck. But, remember, others have free will also. And, they will exercise it, not necessarily to your liking. Keep it simple.

Meanwhile, 2P2 here has a wife that leaves and does not come home until really late hourse / early mornings as often as possible. She comes home very late/early morning puts the key into the lock and gently (and softly) opens the door like unto a thief who does not want to be heard or caught. As long as she is not caught, she can effectively deny (hide) what is happening.

She is living the single life while still (legally) married. We just saw attorneys this week and have gotten the ball rolling down that horrific path. Everyone is against this, but hey, comes back to choice... once the heart is haredened it is gone.

Feeling she is being (extremely) unfaithful to me, I feel like going out there and being more unfaithful. The reward I get for working hard to allow her to be a SAHM, is this: certain devastation (underlying details not important).

Sorry, not trying to make this about me, but keeping it simple is hard to do. The wisest of men have tried and failed. To us, it can be the only thing that secures our survival.

Hard at work - soft at play. Truly confused, all the time.

Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? I am told, once a woman has made up her mind, it is done... there is no turning back. For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?

Yikes. Life is way too complicated. Who says it makes sense. Whose trying to make sense of it? School me -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to “make him happy” and “not make him angry” and “keep the peace” etc. I tried to control my exH’s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy CJ, this is ME in and out! When I realized this about myself, I fell on my knees so hard & cried to God for mercy & forgiveness! I couldn't stop crying & asking Him to help me change! Why is it us women can be so headstrong sometimes that we are blinded to the things we're doing to hurt our men? Unfortunately, sometimes we have to learn this lesson the hard way. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thinking of you, God bless! PS, did you read my thread & my response to you?

Java - listen to this woman carefully. I'm glad you're taking the steps necessary to really understand your W. God's blessings for you!

You know, I appreciate what CJ is saying and all, but there is a second half to this.

I would like to understand her in person!

She has been gone since 1 Oct 2003 and I have very little contact with her.

So I also ask that you pray for her, like I do, that she can be healed of the hurt, and that I don't hurt her.

It's just so frustrating, because I never tried to hurt her, never wanted to hurt her, yet she tells me she hurts so much when she sees me and can never imagine us back together again.

She has filed for divorce!

I know, God COULD intervene, and I'd like him to. However, I know that we all have free will. I ernestly want to be more sensitive and have more hope. Someday's it's just hard to keep holding on to hope.

Well, since I can't really do anything to fix my marriage, I'll tinker with the cars and fix the washing machine today.

Oh, Step D. called last night and wanted some clothes, so I took them over.

SHE WOULDN'T LET ME COME IN TO SEE MY YD!!!

I was disappointed, but didn't get too upset.

I did feel like I was taken advantage of. At 9PM, I went through her closet here, got what she wanted, drove 20 minutes to the apartment, and then was kept outside the door, not allowed to see YD who was still awake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did leave a V-Mail for WW letting her know that I was disappointed with SD.

I doubt much will come of it. I left another message today asking to speak with YD.

Pray for me, I'm a little down today.

However, I am enjoying a Gyro and a Michelob Ultra right now. (Usually only one barley pop a day, maybe two on a Saturday or Sunday.)

Tony

Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2plus2:
<strong> Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? ...For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, 2p2, this is one of the topics that Java and I are going to get to at a later time...why some spouses are not able to reconcile. However, I will briefly say that it's my experience that often the reason people do not reconcile is pride. They are too proud to admit to themselves or others that the made a mistake, and so they back what they know to be a foolish and impossible decision rather than softening their heart. Eventually, they start to believe their own justifications and just CAN'T reconcile anymore.

On the other hand (OTOH), when a spouse has an affair and is willing to soften their heart and admit they made a mistake, often that marriage has a fairly good opportunity for recovery. Of course the BS also has to soften their heart and admit that they contributed too...but when the WS takes the lead and repents, the BS often has a desire to follow and repair the marriage.

Finally, there are some who just make up their mind and like a pitbull, they just refuse to let go of the jugular. With these people, I think it's a combination of FOO issues/midlife crisis and stubbornness...maybe some mental health/personality disorders. (Shrug)


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air.

I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do.

I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.

Sad existance huh?

Tony