Bit o' rambling ahead.<P>Married - 19 years, 9 months, 22 days.<BR>I'm 38, she just turned 38.<BR>Two daughters - 14 & 8.<BR>First affair - 10 years ago.<BR>Current affair - Started Sep 98 'till present.<BR>She's been gone - 9 months, 10 days.<P>What a life.<P>Here I am. Waiting. For what? Well, now I'm just waiting for time to pass. I'm starting to believe she won't return. Why? Guilt. Guilt over what she is doing now & what she did 10 years ago. Also...<P>There was an "incident" that happened in '82. We were at a party. She was EXTREMELY drunk. She got very, very pissed off at me because I told her we needed to go home. She could not even stand up. I told my "buddy" to keep an eye on her. There were plenty of others around. I went & checked on her an hour later and they were gone. I walked around & found them in another building sitting in a dark stairwell. I sorta surprised them. I didn't really see much because it was very dark, but I think she was doing the "tube steak boogie." They both sat up when they heard me. I asked if she was okay & they said they were just talking.<P>Last Christmas when I asked her about this incident, she said, "I don't remember, I was too drunk." How would she remember anything about it if nothing happened & she was too drunk to remember it anyway? Also, he was over a few other times with other people when we had parties. He stayed one night (we lived about 25 miles away in the middle of nowhere. My Wife didn't come to bed & they stayed up all night alone "talking."<P>Well, I'm not gonna beat myself up over it. I have thought about this ever since then & I believe something did happen. I also believe it has been eating at her ever since. Along with the two known affairs, she has gotta have some incredible guilt built up inside after 17 years.<P>So here I wait. Wait for me to heal. I so much need female companionship (not sex, not even close to ready for that again) and if I were to start up anything it would not be good for either of us. Besides I'm still married. It doesn't matter what she has done, I can't go against my vows to her & to God.<P>What's gonna happen? Not much. I'm still in Plan A. No sense going to Plan B as I have so little contact with her and it doesn't hurt to talk to her & I don't love bust at all.<P>Here's what I think will happen. In a year I will divorce her. Also, within two years, she's gonna do something extremely drastic.<P>I'm doing fine folks, so don't worry. It's just that it's very hard to understand all of this. I truly believe this whole thing is about her & not me. Yes, I wasn't the perfect husband & I had/have my faults which I am learning to correct. I'm not blaming our marriage difficulties solely on her. We were equally to blame for what was wrong. But I think she has some MAJOR issues to deal with within herself which are not related to me.<P>I'm gonna start sending her a card every 3-4 weeks. Just somethng simple. I'm gonna invite her to come to Christmas & my daughter's b'day with us. Not expecting a reply, but I'll give it a shot.<P>Do I sound a bit extreme? I don't believe I am. I'm still here folks & still <A HREF="http://www.energizer.com/bunnystuff/facts/" TARGET=_blank>waiting...</A><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

chris, you are really something special. i wish i could say more. yeah, if i were your wife, i think i would feel guilty, too. if only there were a way to take that guilt away from her so she could come back home to you and your daughters...

Chris,<BR>Hang in there. I know what it is like to be waiting. Guilt is getting the better part of my W. She has gone to threatening suicide. She won't go see a counselor because she thinks it will mean that she is crazy and that no one will want to be associated with a crazy person.<P>I had another discussion with our pastor yesterday. I think it finally sunk in that I was telling him the truth about my W. He wants me to provide him with the proof to substantiate my accusations about her. He is now giving me the same advice that a lot of other people locally hav been giving me: to leave her. I can't do that. However, she is free to leave whenever she chooses. I didn't hold a gun to her head to make her marry me and I am not going to hold a gun to her head to make her stay.<P>I do plan on taking care of her as long [censored] GOd gives me breath because I consider that to been a part of our vows to each other before God. I even told her that I have been at his forum. I don't know she took that because she didn't comment on it.<P>I can still thank God for allowing her to come into my life. She is God's gift to me in spite of what anyone says. I refeuse to be selfish and do what my flesh wants to do: leave and be mean and hateful. But God has not been that way with me nor will I be that way with her even though she is doing that to me right now with sleeping on the couch, not saying I love you, no hugs, etc.<P>I am giving her all the necessary space by trying my hardest to implement the tough love concepts in Dr. James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. I must get the book and read it. I have the tape of the show where he discussed the majority of the contents.<P>I'm praying hard for you my firend. MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Chris - Its' really too bad she does't realize how lucky she could be and how special you and her children are.<P>(((((((((((Chris)))))))))))))<P>Lori

I worry too that my H will never come home because of the guilt. I worry about suicide if he ever wakes up. His lawyer asked if I had any suggestions for getting him and the daughter who won't speak to him to reconcile, and I honestly don't believe either she or the eldest ever will, and some day he is going to realize all that he has lost and discover it was not worth it.

{{{{{{{{{{<B>Chris</B>}}}}}}}}}}<P>I am so impressed with your resolve...<BR>I'm not sure I have as much as you do... because I am starting to lose (slowly) the "good" feelings for my wife...<P>I still pray...<BR>I still hope...<BR>I still am doing the "good" No <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A> path...<P>But some "not so good" thoughts are starting to enter my mind... (probably Satan's influence)... or just holiday doldrums...<P>If these thoughts continue... my original idea of moving to Plan B in Jan/Feb of next year will have to happen... <P>I have a few questions...<BR>(Don't take me or my questions as your Satan though... They aren't meant that way... I love and admire what you've been able to do... and to be the "rock" of Plan A-ers)<P>How long do you think you can last in your Plan A?...<BR>Can it go a full year... 2 years... 3 years... or more?<BR>Have you spoken to Dr. Harley about the duration... has he said "years" in Plan A is in some cases reasonable?...<P>Have thoughts like...<BR>"It won't work out..."<BR>"Her mind is too far gone... brainwashed..."<BR>"Recovery will be too long... or be impossible"<BR>"A marriage <B>can</B> die..."<BR>ever entered your mind?... <BR>If so, how have your fought it?...<P>In a not so recent reply to di(SDS) a while back she asked for input on Catholic annulments... and in my readings I came across a booklet... <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089243810X" TARGET=_blank><B>With Open Arms :</B> Catholics, Divorce, & Remarriage</A> by John Hosie.<BR>While <B><I>almost... kind of... but not completely</I></B> ruling out the "exception" of divorce... (i.e. unfaithful spouse)... the book mentions that scholars still debate if a <B>marriage can die</B>...<P>I'm nowhere near the point where I see my marriage a dead... far from it... But... when my wife is constantly saying to me... "it's over...", "I'll never come back to you...", "I hate you..." and so on... <P>I can't help but feel... has her mind been poisoned beyond recovery?... has she been brainwashed?... has her mind (and spirit) been pummeled into a deep hatred of me?...<P>Of course I do say to myself...<BR>She's just protecting her fantasy world...<BR>She's enjoing the "prodigal wife" life too much...<BR>Deep down, she has love for me, otherwise she wouldn't be giving indications of her guilt...<P>Some ideas?... Chris?...<BR>or anyone else?...<P>Jim<BR>------------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...

Chris,<P>Your strength and patience is amazing to me. You are holding on because it is right and it is truthful. What God joined together, let no man put asunder.<P>I can only hope that one day our spouses will be able to see the light that shines through us, through God's grace, and that they will come back home where they belong.<P>I think that espcially when children are involved, it makes it that more difficult for us to give up hope.<P>I know what you mean about companionship (not sex). I long for someone to hold me and walk w/ me and talk w/ me. That is the hardest part.<P>Sending you hugs and continued prayers.<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

hi chris, very noble of you to invite her for christmas and birthday party. You are an amazing person-truly you are. I am glad you have shared this with us. I think sometimes we get so lost in the pain that we forget why we are here. Most of us are here because of LOVE, and you show it so often. Thank you. I think the cards and invites are great, if you want to do it, and can deal with the rejection if there is no response. Hope the girls are behaving for you! (((hugs)))

Hey Chris,<P>Make God bless you. You are to be admired.<P>I too never think my stbx will return and that is why I am going thru with the divorce. I think that pride has now taken over, she HAS to understand what she has done. I can understand the affair, but the lengths she has carried it now is unbelievable. She has put down the om in front of me numerous times but she is taking him back and he is still married. How else can you explain that other than guilt, she knows he won't leave his wife and I guess this is her way of punishing herself.<P>I would imagine your w is going thru the same thing. I still don't understand how they can give up on their kids. Mine were gone for 2.5 days and I have been a wreck till they got home this morning.<P><BR>Hang in there Chris!!<P>God Bless<BR>Bob

Chris and NSR,<P>I really admire both of you and many others on this forum for your committment to "hang in there." I'm not sure I could have done the same if I had known my H was involved with someone else. However, I did "hang in there" while he was displaying many of the same behaviors as your spouses. For about 9-10 years. Yep. That long. I didn't know why he was changing so much but all I knew is that he was different. I guess I was in Plan A without realizing it. I was told it was me and I believed him.<P>My point is he did eventually come around to the guy I remembered. The affair did end upon my discovery and he has had NO contact since Jan 98. He's back to the guy he used to be and even better, wiser, more mature, more appreciative. I believe the affair was ending anyway at the point when I discovered it. Would he have been so anxious, willing and cooperative if I had found out at the height of intensity. Who knows? <P>No, the love did not die. We are closer and more committed now than we ever were before. We are older, wiser, more mature and more grateful for each day together. More sensitive to each others needs, feelings and moods. <P>Am I suggesting that you wait for 9-10 years? No,,no way. I wouldn't have been able to hang in there for that long if I had known that's what I was doing. I am saying your W's will wake up someday and realize what they have lost. Perhaps too late. For your sake, I hope they wake up soon.

Hi Chris! Dropping in pretty infrequently here.<P>All this focus on meeting needs and plan A. It makes you think there really is something you could have/should have done/can do to fix things.<P>Sometimes it really is about them, not about you. <P>I'm realizing that now. My husband is one really mixed-up in the head person. Now that I'm moving on and feeling okay about it, I can really see how messed up he is. It's terribly, terribly sad, because I still love him. But I can't fix this for him. <P>Don't wait another year. That's my advice, for what its worth.

Hey Chris,<P>You are an inspiration to us all. That album that your thread title is from, "Foo Fighters- The Colour and the Shape" is really just so appropriate isn't it?<P>It has the right mix of anger, longing, love, and bitterness: all about breaking up and making up. A good description of the roller coaster ride we've been on together.<P>I've found it very helpful... Good luck to you sir.<P>Eric

chris, <BR> <BR>I'm with you thru this pain we are getting. I think it's us and shattered,rwd with wives gone from home. Based on RWD experience and other non success, I just don't think it can come back (the marriage, the trust). I am beginning to see we both deserve better, we both have chosen to stay as the victim, hoping for some kinda turnaround. I admire you for hanging in their so long. I think at one time you said it might have been easier because she is out of state. I might agree with you. I still know where my wife lives, when she's not home, what she is probably doing. For now she is not actually living with OM, though she spends nights when child is not with her. I'm with you we have waited for what....for me I think I've waited til the pain has subsided and for the magic 6 mth mark. Then it's time to move on. I know we are both great guys that deserve better, and can find better. I totally agree with you, about this being about them and their issues. You are so right, but we can't do a damn thing about it. <BR>

HI Chris,<BR> Sorry to hear your pain. I understand BELEIVE me!! Especially about <BR>"""""So here I wait. Wait for me to heal. I so much need female companionship (not sex, not even close to ready for that again) and if I were to start up anything it would not be good for either of us. Besides I'm still married. It doesn't matter what she has done, I can't go against my vows to her & to God."""""""<P>I am thinking the same way you are. What do I wait for? She dosen't seem to care if she hurts me. Oh Well, I'm not much help today. I think I'm going to Plan "B" (see my post) Good Luck and Prayers FRANK

<B>NSR</B>,<P><B>How long do you think you can last in your Plan A?...</B><BR>Don't know. I feel I can go on forever (but I won't), but if we start having it out then I won't last long. It makes no sense for me to go to Plan B at this point.<P><B>Can it go a full year... 2 years... 3 years... or more?</B><BR>I don't intend for anything to go on past Christmas next year.<P><B>Have you spoken to Dr. Harley about the duration... has he said "years" in Plan A is in some cases reasonable?...</B><BR>I have spoken with Steve Harley (Dr H's son). He asked how I feel about what I am doing. No suggestion to go to Plan B.<P>Years? I think I could if I wanted too, but I don't. I'm outa here next Christmas. I have no plans to go on & on & on...<P><B>Have thoughts like (below) ever entered your mind?... </B><BR>"It won't work out..."<BR>Yeah, I'm a bit afraid of that. I know I can do it, but if she is not willing then it doesn't matter how much I try.<P>"Her mind is too far gone... brainwashed..."<BR>Yes.<P>"Recovery will be too long... or be impossible"<BR>I don't believe it is impossible <B>IF</B> people are willing to try.<P>"A marriage can die..."<BR>Again, if both parties are willing to try, then I <B>KNOW</B> it can work out.<P><B>If so, how have your fought it?...</B><BR>Well, I guess almost everything I have read says it is possible. Also, it is VERY probable the affair won't last. I feel that I owe it to me, my children, my Wife and my God to do everything in my power to try & make it.<P><B>Nerlycrzy</B>, You (along with Dmac & Suse) are some of the very reasons I'm still around. Living proof it is possible to go on.<P><B>Annie</B>, I now really believe it is about her & not me or us. Yeah, there were a few problems, but nothing that could have been very easily worked out.<P>I feel I need to wait another year for a few reasons. One is for the marriage. She's screwed up. Another is because I need this time to get over the relationship. If I bailed now, I would be saying, "what if" to myself forever. Also, I don't think I could develop a healthy relationship with someone else until I'm "over it" more than I am now. I want to start out knowing I gave my all.<P><B>izzy</B>, Yeah it is MUCH easier to deal with without her around.If they were both here, I think someone would have a few dozen slashed tires/broken windshields .<P><BR>I did talk with her today. I'm at her sisters house. Her brother died this morning. She called her sister & I had the privilege of talking with my Wife. (Wow, I'm really gonna score some points now eh? )<P>I told her I was sorry about her brother. She said she spent all day crying. She was talking to her sister & asked if she should go to the funeral and what should she wear. Good ole SIL told her off a bit. I am going to go to the funeral with my SIL. It's in San Francisco next week sometime. Don't know if the Wife will be there or not. Should be a very tense time for her when she sees me. I'll be very good. No love busters and Mr Charming. I don't expect to talk to her before then. We'll see what happens.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris,<P>I thank you for your response back to my reply...<BR>You are a pillar of strength!<P>Again, my condolances to you and your family...<P>I pray for your wife to get some spiritual insight... whether she goes to the funeral or not. Our time on this earth is so short... our chances to share love with our children... our true spouses... and all around us so fleeting... <P>I hope... I pray... that a gentle touch of her heart... when/if she sees you... could move her even a small step closer to bringing her back to you and your daughters.<P>I candle burns this week on the east coast... for all here... and especially for a friend on the west coast.<P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

Hi Chris,<P>Dayam, you're good! Stop makin' all the rest of us menfolk look so limited. <P>Seriously Chris, you're a gem. Like just about everyone else here I admire your fortitude, your compassion, and devotion. You've shown something I aspire to: grace under fire.<P>It's been quite the year, eh? I guess I have the tendency during the holidays to look back and see what it was all about. Some years are more of a personal test than others.<P>You're character's been tested this year, for sure. And...this may sound strange even...but you've got plenty of which to be proud. Maybe you can't even admit that, but it's true from my perspective.<P>Nope, "it" is not about you. You're working to grow, to learn, to be a better guy. After this year of getting to know more about you and about your wife, I'd say she hasn't much to show for her year.<P>Maybe there are some times when you feel like bein' a better guy isn't much consolation. Then again, consider what you've done for your kids. And, consider what you offer others. <P>I'm proud to know ya!<P>Be well.

Chris -- I replied to your post concerning your BIL, but after reading this thread, I felt that I had to try to add something more.<P>As many others have said to already, you are truly an inspiration. It was six months that my W and I were separated, and my entire world was a shambles the entire time, and yet here you are at almost a year and you are still hanging on. . .not only to hopes for your marriage, but to your sanity as well.<P>I too hope and pray that when (if) your W sees you at the funeral for your BIL, that her heart will soften. That there will be at least a spark which will eventually lead to your reconciliation.<P>Men like you and NSR are so good with words. You are able to share your compassion with all of us who are in need. I wish that I could be half as successful at expressing my self as you seem to be.<P>I continue to pray for you and your ENTIRE family. May God give you peace my friend.<P>God Bless

Chris,<P>I do admire you for many things: morality, deep sense of commitment to family and God, acceptance that people (especially W) are human and you love DESPITE the human failings, determination to give it your all, fortitude to be a decent and loving role-model for your children, caring enough to help the rest of us out by uplifting us through this forum.....the list goes on and on, Chris!<P>OK - you have a plan and a timetable. But, give yourself the flexibility to change them based on your own changing expectations.<P>Don't consider your time as "waiting" until your W decides to do whatever she is going to do. <P>Consider this a time of GROWTH for Chris. You talked about it being your healing period, and that is definitely true. You have to heal from this most deadly of assaults to your being. But, as you have already done, this time can be one of growth - strengthening yourself emotionally and spiritually. You have done a FANTASTIC job of growing in both areas and are still going strong. Give yourself CREDIT for how far you have come under the direst and most stringent of circumstances!<P>I have no idea how these things will end for the majority of us - you nor me nor really anybody else. I DO see that virtually everyone of us here sees the necessity to assess, evaluate and change to become a better and stronger person.<P>I see virtually EVERY ONE of our wayward spouses, no matter WHAT the individual story is, as people who refuse to assess, evaluate and change ANYTHING about themselves, except to change the partner - US, as if WE could be the SOLE reason for another's unhappiness. So, our spouses "run away" from us, and look to some other person to make them feel happy and fulfilled. <P>The truth is that each of us is responsible for our own happiness. As proof of that, think of it this way - each of us should be able to go on and live a happy and fulfilling life if our spouse would have died, once the grieving time was completed. In essence, if the spouse runs away and refuses to work on the marriage and divorces us, then in a way our spouse is "dead" to us and to our relationship. <P>I think those of us who are willing to see ourselves with a truthful, critical eye and who are willing to say "I see room for improvement and I am willing to do what it takes to grow as a person" are more mature than our wayward spouses.<P>Philosophical ramblings on a fine Sunday morning.....<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>