Yes, that is right. I quit. Maybe I've become a better person, but all I know is that when I prayed to God about saving my marriage, I didn't see any results.

I've spent very little time on this since my last post in July and I feel much better. The only time I feel bad about this whole thing is when I think about it. So I just don't.

When I go to our Sunday School class, I'm greeted by people who appear to be happily married and don't know what to do with the guy whose wife left him.

When I ask God to show me what I need to do, either He is silent, or I can't understand what He is telling me.

When I read scripture everyday, I say, hey I'm doing those things, so where is my peace? Why doesn't God show himself?

I cannot keep hoping, keep having faith in God restoring my marriage without seeing something from God, so this is my last request, help me understand if there is anything else I need to do, today.

If it's just that I need to wait, then fine, but I simply need to know.

I'm willing to follow the direction of God, but it must be unmistakably a message from God and not just a well meaning message from other believers. So what I ask of you folks today is that you not tell me what you think God would have me do, but that you ask God to tell me in such a fashion is that it is unmistakably Him speaking.

I just want peace, if the marriage is over, and I really think it is because I cannot accept the one-sided blame, the manipulation, the not being heard, those things have totally destroyed my ability to love her.

So if God wants me to tough it out, then I admit my weakness and inability to go any further.

God has to do it, or make a way for me to, because today, I don't want her anymore, and simply want to go on with my life.

I want to do God's will, so if it His will that the marriage is saved, then I'd like to feel a lot more support from Him. Because I feel much better when I think about just not being with her anymore.

TB

I've been rolling this around in my fat little mind, and this is what I've come
up with.

The marriage is over, period. If God has other plans, then he will do what He
must to make that so.

However, for my sanity, I have to live like it's over until I see otherwise.

It's not really something I can decide as much as have to come to grips with.
It's over!

If God wants us back together, He will put us back together.

TB

java-
I came to the same conclusion several months ago. I started feeling much better when I completely gave up. You will feel good once again, whatever the outcome.

Praying for you Java.

May God comfort you and hold you in His arms today.


God Bless!

H98

believer:

I don't think it's "giving up" that you're doing. It's "letting go", which is a whole 'nother animal al2gether. A healthier way 2go.

-ol' 2long

Hi Tony,

I understand giving up, or letting go of your wife. But I really feel God has something planed for you. Maybe he was waiting for you to move on first?? We can't question the big guy. Make no false idol of your W.

You are a neat Christian man with a kind heart. Someone is going to appreciate the heck out of you, someone who really NEEDS you. Your W was playing a heroine role, and has moved on to another part. You deserved better. Maybe this IS God showing himself?

You have lots to give, and I bet you get the chance to do it. Please take care of yourself - Dru

Java -

I am unfamiliar with your story, but all too familiar with the frustration you are feeling right now. I read your prayer on the "Dear God" thread, one that I prayed almost verbatim for what seemed like an eternity. I, too, once inhabited that dark, slimy pit you find yourself in. And, like you will eventually do, I managed to claw my way up the slippery sides to see the light of day again. It took over two years.

But I did not escape that hell on my own, nor with much assistance from my wife. God met me at the bottom of that pit when no one else dared even peer down the hole. And it was by His sheer grace that He rescued me. A grace that I thought I knew before, but underestimated. A grace that was extended to me and, by its very nature, had to be extended in turn by me to those who betrayed me, even though it went against every human instinct in my body. It was only with that realization that I was able to go on.

God does not abandon us through our trials. He hurts for us, and yes, listens to our mournful pleas for help. He also sustains us in a way that may not be immediately felt or understood. But I have experienced enough through trials to know with confidence that He will deliver us out of our turmoil as stronger, more complete, more enlightened creatures.

But waiting for that to happen sucks, I understand that. Just know that He is always faithful, but in His time, not ours. I'll pray that you might find a little peace tonight.

JSC,

Hello.

We don’t normally “meet” in cyberspace. You have posted to me once before. I spotted a post from 2long that led me here.

I can tell you this (sorry if I offend anyone else) for sure. Of all the posts I have read from different people, you have the distinct honor (if honor it is) of making NCWalker say “WOW!”

Only a few have written words of faith and clarity to the point that I was actually taken aback reading them. You are one of them.

On to your issue. Without having to know the background, I can say that I have seen nothing wrong with what you have written. From your earlier posts, I am also confident that you have prayed about this and went to the Spirit. I can tell you know how God works and have SEEN how God works and are struggling with why it is not working for you.

Go back to Abraham and Sarah. Two key points there. The first one is obvious.

In brief: God promised the kid. Didn’t seem possible, given their age. They figured they would “help” God and took matters in their own hands. Sarah tosses the maidservant his way, yadda yadda yadda and we have Ishmael. (BTW, I once read, UNCONFIRMED, that it is Ishmael’s bloodline that lead to Mohammed and the followers of Islam. Again, UNCONFIRMED, but I have heard there is supposedly a link to the Fundamentalist Islamics, their Jihad against us now, and Abram’s mistake). Point? Don’t rush the Big Guy.

Second point: Again with this pair. Forward in time to where Abraham is telling Abimelech’s people that Sarah is his “sister” so they won’t kill him and take her. This is AFTER the promise of kids, AFTER the birth of Ishmael, but BEFORE the birth of Isaac. So Abraham and Sarah haven’t seen a lot of God’s promises fulfilled, either. And he comes up with a plan to protect himself – tells everyone it is his sister, not his wife. As if God couldn’t protect and honor Abraham. As if God NEEDED Abraham to sow this deceit “for their own good.” Wrong. Abraham’s reason for doing this? Gen 20:11. Abraham says “*I* said to *myself* “ Where is the God said in that? He brings a curse on Abimelech’s house. He says to his wife “show me you love me by lying about who you are.” How do you think Sarah felt about that? Look back in verse 6. Who is God protecting? ABIMELECH from unknowingly bringing a curse by laying with Sarah. Point? GOD is able. All this monkeying around by Abraham and Sarah. Know when God delivered on his promise for the kid (Isaac)? 25 YEARS after he made it to them. Know what else? That was GOD’S TIME, not THEIR time.

At first read, it doesn’t seem as if old Abraham did anything wrong. He just agreed to lay with Sarah’s maid (HER suggestion) and had her lie about the fact that they were married to save his life. Both seem kind of reasonable. Surely not deserving any kind of retribution. WRONG. Both choices lacked FAITH and OBEDIENCE. What more wrong can you do to the Big Guy?

Sure, there are lots of things we are not supposed to do to each other, but what really dishonors Him? No faith and no obedience.

JSC you need to be careful here. You know the line about feed the milk to the babies and the meat to the grown ups? That implies quite a bit more. More is EXPECTED of the grown ups, they know better.

My words to you are not that you are wrong. My words to you are not that you don’t have a right to be happy. My words to you are only of caution. You have demonstrated quite a level of spiritual acuity to me and I intend to hold you accountable. Just as you have done for me. Pray your head off. IF you have a peace about your obedience and that you really believe …

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The marriage is over, period. If God has other plans, then he will do what He
must to make that so.

However, for my sanity, I have to live like it's over until I see otherwise.

It's not really something I can decide as much as have to come to grips with.
It's over!

If God wants us back together, He will put us back together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">… you should be OK. Just remember, Abraham thought so too. And he didn’t get his promise for 25 years because of it. Just remember, Abraham was about to plunge the knife into the heart of his beloved son and God stopped him at the last possible instant. Are you there? At the last possible instant with so much swinging in the balance? Are you ready to hear directly from Him? Or are you just tired?

A sabbatical from your issues is not an end. A change is as good as a rest. If I were in your shoes, I would take a break. Nothing wrong with that. I would put this on the altar. (Not the state of your marriage, I am sure you have already done that. I mean your current decision, it is very final sounding to me). I would probably fast and really humble myself. I would definitely get another brother who had a strong walk to hold me accountable through this. You are too grown up of a Christian to expect God to amaze you with a miracle at this point. Look for the FAMILIAR VOICE. Read a bit on Samuel as a kid. Sam though God was Eli for goodness sake. One would think the voice of the Lord would be irrefutably divine. Inspirational sounding. Very Cecil B. Demille. Not so. Many times he speaks in a familiar voice, and that is how He is going to talk to you. Makes it harder to hear Him sometimes. Humble your flesh and hearken your heart. And remember, Satan’s favorite trick is to give you something good to keep you from the best.

I’m not saying don’t, just be careful, be sure. Find the second or even third cord and settle the matter the way you know how. Check out 2 Peter 1:3,4 and even 5-14. Have you done this legwork on this issue? Look at vs 12. We are to remind each other, even though we already know. Got it? Sometimes harder to see the situation when you are in it. Kind of reminds me of a time when NCWalker was in need and someone gave me a pivotal piece of information…

One of your posts was PIVOTAL to me. My prayer is this is the same to you. I will pray strongly that you get some kind of answer, you pray that you hear it.

NCWalker

My dear brother Tony,

First things first. I am writing to you right here, right out loud in front of everybody so that this is a transparently honest post. You know that being ignored hurt me, and that was your choice at the time; yet that does not mean that I don't still care for you in sisterly love and concern for you. What I'm trying to say is that just because one of your behaviors hurt me, I do not intend to "hurt you back" or behave in a retaliating way. I do still care about you as a fellow brother in Christ and co-warrior.

So that being said, I am going to be completely honest with you Tony, knowing what I know. Now I could be all sympathetic and comforting and blah blah blah, but I don't think that's what you need right now--neither do you need a 2x4 to the head! But I respect you too much to just say milktoast things when you need to face the truth that you do not want to face.

Tony, you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Yes, that is right. I quit. Maybe I've become a better person, but all I know is that when I prayed to God about saving my marriage, I didn't see any results.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is because you pray to God for YOUR will, and I have told you this before. In God's perfect will, both you and your wife would walk with Him and have union with HIM and with each other. However, God recognizes that we are weak, foolish, stubborn, flawed human beings, and He gives us the freedom to willingly choose to pursue His will or pursue our own will. If we choose His will, He has promised to us abundance, peace, and favor in His sight. If we choose our own will, then He is disappointed and has to use us inspite of ourselves to accomplish His will--AND we do not get the promises!

My dear brother, you pray to God to save your marriage--whether that is His will or not, whether that will save your wife's immortal soul or not, whether that is what is best for you or not--you want it your way because it hurts you to have it HIS WAY. Right now you are like Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane praying, "God don't do this. Don't do this. It hurts too much. Do what I want. I don't care about all those souls that will be lost, I don't want to hurt. I want to be in control. I want it my way. Don't do this. Give me a lightening bolt to show me that you want to do it my way. Send a flood or fire or something to stop your own will." That doesn't make much sense, does it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've spent very little time on this since my last post in July and I feel much better. The only time I feel bad about this whole thing is when I think about it. So I just don't.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So rather than dealing with the pain of having to completely melt in the hands of the goldsmith, and having complete faith in the skills of your goldsmith, you are avoiding going into the flames and remain the same old, impure, unusable piece of gold--misshappen and unwilling to yield to the pain of melting. This is avoidance, not acceptance. Acceptance would be more like, "The only time I feel bad is when I think about it, so when I do think about it, I embrace it and let myself feel sad for what I have lost."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When I go to our Sunday School class, I'm greeted by people who appear to be happily married and don't know what to do with the guy whose wife left him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be completely blunt, this is an area I believe the Church as the representatives of God has a LOT of growing to do. That I can see, there are few or no ministries for training a pastor how to counsel an abused wife--how to support a spouse who is divorced because their spouse up and left--how to re-integrate those who were "left behind" back into the body--how to morally and biblically support and encourage someone going through this. It is truly sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When I ask God to show me what I need to do, either He is silent, or I can't understand what He is telling me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I reply B.S.!! and I don't mean "Betrayed Spouse"!!! I mean buffalo pucky. God has told you and told you over again, and you refuse to listen and refuse to yield. Tony, you know as well as I do that you want to keep hold of those reins, and you are holding onto them when you NEED to let go!! If you can not understand what God is telling you, then hear this: God needs to do what is best for your wife's immortal soul. He has to do what needs to be done in order to save her and bring her to HIM. That takes priority over letting you have it your way or not hurting you. In fact, as a spiritually mature man, it is about time that you started to understand and appreciate the connection between suffering and intimacy with God!

You want a message from God that you can see and understand? How about if you GIVE to your wife and surrender willingly and graciously in your negotiations with her, rather than forcing YOUR way and demanding that she see things as YOU see them? How about if you become a bending willow rather than an unyielding but hollow oak? When we were communicating, I would specifically tell you, "If you insist on doing XYZ, this will seriously hamper your efforts at civility, wound your wife, prove her point, and install a wall" and yet you would do it anyway--providing justification and rationalization for why you HAD to do it.

My friend, you remind me of the guy who was caught in a flood and prayed to God to be saved. Along came a neighbor in a small fishing boat, and the guy said he was waiting for God. So he prayed some more, and along came another neighbor in a raft. Nope, the guy was waiting for God to save him. So he prayed some more, and along came a heliocopter with a rope ladder saying, "Climb the ladder--we have room for one more." Nope the guy was waiting for God to save him...and the flood waters rose and he drowned. So in heaven, he sees God and says, "God! Why did you forsake me?? I prayed and trusted in you to save me and you let me drown!" and God says, "What do you mean? I sent you three people to save you!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When I read scripture everyday, I say, hey I'm doing those things, so where is my peace? Why doesn't God show himself? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you will have peace when you choose to be peaceful. I have peace right now, and I have it because I chose the serenity over the bickering and over proving my point and over fighting over things I could not change. I can not change my spouse. Period. I want to with all my heart, but I can't. I have peace because I choose to accept that I will not get all the money that I "have a right to", nor will I have the loving spouse that I thought I had, nor will I ever be able to force him to hear me or love me. I have peace, because I choose to keep my focus on me, walking in closeness with God, creating peaceful surroundings, treating others peacefully, and making the decision to be peaceful.

In the Old Testament days, God used to reveal Himself with pillars of fire or lightening bolts, snatching righteous people right up into the air to be with Him, etc. He just does not operate that way as much anymore. His miracles now are often more subtle, but still just as miraculous. He does not write a billboard that says, "Tony--I want you to want MY will. Surrender to me." These days God sends a faithful, mature believer to you just as He sent Nathan to David to confront him. Was Nathan not speaking God's will and voicing God's word?? Then what makes you think that God will not speak to you through one of His faithful prophets? HuH?? David was the apple of God's eye--trust me, if ever He were going to throw a lightening bolt, it would have been for David, 'cuz God just LOOOOOVED David!! But God send NATHAN. Think on that my friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I cannot keep hoping, keep having faith in God restoring my marriage without seeing something from God, so this is my last request, help me understand if there is anything else I need to do, today. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, I'll just say that God has told you what you need to do and you refuse to do it. You justify YOUR WAY, and then complain because it didn't work and just stiffened her neck and hardened her heart even worse. Instead of asking God if there's anything else you need to do--LISTEN TO WHAT HE IS ALREADY TELLING YOU, AND DO IT!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If it's just that I need to wait, then fine, but I simply need to know. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Surely this is simple. You need to surrender to God and yield to Him, NO MATTER WHAT HIS WILL IS. You need to accept the lessons He has for you and willingly obey and serve. You need to live every day completely in His Will for your life, happily choosing His peace. And then if it is His will, He will restore your marriage. And if it is not His will, He will not. Either way, you will still firmly and joyfully be living every day IN HIS WILL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm willing to follow the direction of God, but it must be unmistakably a message from God and not just a well meaning message from other believers. So what I ask of you folks today is that you not tell me what you think God would have me do, but that you ask God to tell me in such a fashion is that it is unmistakably Him speaking. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alrighty then. Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, creator of the human heart and master of all that is, was and ever shall be. Your servant and son, Tony, will not listen to the voice of believers whom You have chosen to place in his life to speak wisdom and love to him, so I am faithfully asking You to bonk him on the head. I am requesting that You hit him so hard that he will have NO DOUBT it is You, and that from this day forward, he will never choose to ignore the believers you put in his life. As You know, Howard, we have spent many an hour with Tony, so I am going to ask that You break his will and crumble his stubbornness (just as a Master sculpter crumbles the old clay to rewet it and reform it), and renew him in the gentle, capable hands of the Master into a wholly new man and creation of Yours. I am asking that You put Your love for him ahead of his fear of being hurt or fear of not being in control, and that in Your wisdom You do what is BEST for Tony and in YOUR WILL to do. Just do it. Unleash it and let Tony know that when he is afraid, crumbled and completely out-of-control YOU ARE THERE.

Thank you!


CJ

JSC - CJ hit all the "bases" pretty well.

God is not "Santa Claus," fulfilling OUR wish lists. WE are HIS. He is Sovereign and purposes things according to HIS will, not ours.

So what to do? "Be still, and KNOW that I am God."

You want the outcome that YOU desire. Understandable. And if your wife is a born-again Christian, that outcome IS possible. But it WILL be according to God's timetable, not yours. Until you accept that, God cannot work on your behalf because you refuse to "allow" Him to be "in control."

OUR purpose in life is to honor and glorify God, not to have God "at our beck and call."

Understand that God IS faithful to all of His promises to those who love Him and follow Him in humble obedience to His commands. We don't get to "pick and choose" which commands we will obey and which we won't.

Surrender of our will to His will, as Christ was the model in Gethsemene, is our "work." Waiting on the Lord's timetable is our commitment.

Somewhere along the line it seems that you got it into your head that YOU had do all the work. If you are doing all the work, what's left for God to do?

While I am unfamiliar with your history and the dynamics of your marriage, the "answer" for both you and your wife is very simple; get your pride out of the way, surrender your stubborness and submit to God's commands, all of them, in humble obedience.

Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathasized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, becaue you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possesions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. (Heb.10:32-36, NIV)

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the assurance we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him." (1John 5:13-15, NIV)

Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may life you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. (1Peter 5:5-10, NIV)

This is how you should pray:

"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one." (Matt.6: 9-13, NIV)

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matt.26:39, NIV)

If you love me, you will obey what I command. .... Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him. .... Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching." (John 14:15, 21, 23a NIV)

As a vessel that was previously filled must first be emptied before it can be refilled, empty youself of your "will" so that God can fill you with His will. Let the Peace of God dwell in you as you let God be the master of your life and work in your life according to His will. God IS faithful to all of His promises to those who love him.

God bless and strengthen you and fill you with His wisdom.

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

I want to first start with thanking folks for what they wrote. I'm not sure everyone got what I was feeling, and that is probably because A) you aren't in my shoes and B) I probably didn't convey the message well.

I do want to say that yes it was a bit of a tantrum, and quite frankly I am frustrated.

Why? Because I don't know. Maybe it is a faith issue, that I have to stop doing anything and let God get to work.

What I do know is that no answer that I could positively know was from God and not the opinions of others was presented. Now that probably sounds like I'm dismissing you all. It's not meant to be that. Rather, I know I've had God speak to me before in such a fashion as it was clear that it was Him. It wasn't through another person, but through a dream that he gave me about reading two scriptures I'd never read before and how they fit so well into my life.

So I know God can speak to me, as I believe it has happened before.

We read in scripture about how God wants relationship with us, His creation, how he wants us to seek him out. We read the metaphor about how Christ is the Bridegroom and the church is the Bride of Christ.

Well here I am, asking for God to show Himself, that I want that relationship, I'm doing what I know to do to seek out that relationship, and I feel like He is not there.

So I'm saying, I don't know where else to look for you God. I'm not saying I want my way as it regards my marriage. Sure I'd like to not go through divorce. Frankly it's not divorce that scares me, but that when I feel I need God the most, I don't feel him.

That is what scares me.

I'm not quitting God, I'm not avoiding the furnace, I'd like to think of it as I'm asking for directions, and I want to be 100% certain that I'm hearing from God and not Satan.

Thanks,


TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I'm saying, I don't know where else to look for you God. I'm not saying I want my way as it regards my marriage. Sure I'd like to not go through divorce. Frankly it's not divorce that scares me, but that when I feel I need God the most, I don't feel him.

That is what scares me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahhhh, TB, I think I begin to understand. "when I feel I need God the most, I don't feel him." It's an emotional response you are looking for.

Be still and know that I am God. Do not be looking for "miraculous signs." You HAVE been given that sign in Jesus' resurrection.

Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. When the other disciples told him that they had seen the Lord, he declared, "Unless I see the nail marks and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. {Thomas wanted to feel God} A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me {and felt him}, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:24-27 NIV)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not quitting God, I'm not avoiding the furnace, I'd like to think of it as I'm asking for directions, and I want to be 100% certain that I'm hearing from God and not Satan. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it's directions you want, the Scriptures provide all the directions you will ever need. In the "past" God used Prophets to convey His message, but Jesus eliminated that mode of contact and gave us Himself and all of the Scripture. Or are you asking for someone to interpret a passage of Scripture for you? One thing you can be 100% CERTAIN of is it is GOD, not Satan, speaking in the Scripture.

What IS it, specifically, that you are unclear about or that you are doubting?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What IS it, specifically, that you are unclear about or that you are doubting? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe this helps. I wrote this in an e-mail elsewhere about making choices. Bottom line was I don't see where I have a choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let's go down the path most comfortable for the ESTJ, logic.

Can I decide to save the marriage? Not really, no matter how much I want to
save the marriage, it is not a unilateral decision.

So even if I come to the conclusion that I want the marriage to survive, I'm
essentially powerless to do anything about it, there is still the will of
another person in play here.

So if I decide to let her go, sure it's supported scripturally, but that really
does nothing about the pain of us breaking up, and it puts our daughter in a
place we all agree is not God's design for family. With what I believe and what
I know, I cannot choose divorce.

So I really don't have a choice do I? One is to choose to end the marriage and
the other is to hope and pray that it doesn't end, but I don't get to choose
that, do I?

So I want God to choose, and just tell me what His plan is so I can feel
comfortable with it. What does He want me to do. Not that it will be easy
either way, so it's not like I'm looking for a way out, rather I'm looking for a
way to be in His perfect will.

But I'm not hearing it, or feeling it right now, and that is what I need most.
It's easy for everyone to say rely on God. Well, I'm here telling you all that
I'm having a hard time hearing God, and it's not because I'm not listening.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Tony, my dear friend,

You have asked for Him to speak to you. Don't you understand, my friend? He has. Let me show you by your own words.

You ask us to love one another. I admit that I cannot love my wife as she continues the affair, the blame, as she refuses to listen to me.

What was your decision? I just want peace, if the marriage is over, and I really think it is because I cannot accept the one-sided blame, the manipulation, the not being heard, those things have totally destroyed my ability to love her. Don't you think He knows this? You are walking away from the battle. You have grown weary, you feel weak. He knows this. He is removing you from the battle so He can take complete control.

Thinking about the marriage has only raised my blood pressure to unhealthy levels, caused me to lose sleep and more hair. My work has suffered in the past year, and I don't feel any closer to you than I did a year ago.

What was His answer?

I've spent very little time on this since my last post in July and I feel much better. The only time I feel bad about this whole thing is when I think about it. So I just don't.

He has directed your thoughts on other things besides your M. He knows you have bad thoughts about the M, so He is replacing those thoughts w/other things.

My desires this past year have centered around knowing you better, changing in a fashion that enables me to honor my marriage covenant, that makes me so much more attractive than the sin my wife chooses, and repairing an obviously broken marriage.

Haven't you gotten to know Him better by reading His word? Haven't you changed into a different man than you were a year ago? Hasn't your focus changed more to getting to know Him better than wanting your M to be saved? Has He gotten to the other two yet? Not right now. If you're looking for when, He won't reveal that to you. Where's the miracle in that if you know when? If you know how, where's the miracle in that?

I'm going to go w/FH on this one. What makes you think that your steps are being guided by Satan or that Satan is answering your prayers? Because your M has not come back together yet? Because your W is still acting the way she's acting? What exactly makes you feel this way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong>

I'm going to go w/FH on this one. What makes you think that your steps are being guided by Satan or that Satan is answering your prayers? Because your M has not come back together yet? Because your W is still acting the way she's acting? What exactly makes you feel this way? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe my steps are being guided by Satan, but I do want to know that the voice I'm listening to about my marriage being over is God's voice.

I'm supposed to be able to run and not grow weary.

Peep here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isaiah 40<strong>
Isaiah 40


Comfort for God's People

1
Comfort, comfort my people,
says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and proclaim to her
that her hard service has been completed,
that her sin has been paid for,
that she has received from the LORD's hand
double for all her sins.

3 A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [1] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. [2]
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all mankind together will see it.
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

6 A voice says, "Cry out."
And I said, "What shall I cry?"

"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.
7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."

9 You who bring good tidings to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, [3]
lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!"
10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.
11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
He gathers the lambs in his arms
and carries them close to his heart;
he gently leads those that have young.

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,
or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket,
or weighed the mountains on the scales
and the hills in a balance?
13 Who has understood the mind [4] of the LORD ,
or instructed him as his counselor?
14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?

15 Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;
they are regarded as dust on the scales;
he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.
16 Lebanon is not sufficient for altar fires,
nor its animals enough for burnt offerings.
17 Before him all the nations are as nothing;
they are regarded by him as worthless
and less than nothing.

18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
What image will you compare him to?
19 As for an idol, a craftsman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and fashions silver chains for it.
20 A man too poor to present such an offering
selects wood that will not rot.
He looks for a skilled craftsman
to set up an idol that will not topple.

21 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
23 He brings princes to naught
and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.
24 No sooner are they planted,
no sooner are they sown,
no sooner do they take root in the ground,
than he blows on them and they wither,
and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.

25 "To whom will you compare me?
Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.
26 Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one,
and calls them each by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.

27 Why do you say, O Jacob,
and complain, O Israel,
"My way is hidden from the LORD ;
my cause is disregarded by my God"?
28 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
29 He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.
30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have put my hope in the Lord, yet I'm weary, I'm faint, and I'm certainly not soaring.

So that is why I don't believe I'm hearing from the Lord, this promise is not coming true, even if the marriage is over, then I should be able to count on this, right?

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So I really don't have a choice do I? One is to choose to end the marriage and the other is to hope and pray that it doesn't end, but I don't get to choose that, do I?

So I want God to choose, and just tell me what His plan is so I can feel comfortable with it. What does He want me to do. Not that it will be easy either way, so it's not like I'm looking for a way out, rather I'm looking for a way to be in His perfect will. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You presented only two choices: end the marriage or hope and pray that it doesn't end. There are indeed other options, Tony! I did not choose to end my marriage or choose to "give up"--I chose to continue to act in a way that was loving whether I was married or not because that's the kind of person I choose to be. I did not choose to "hope and pray" that it wouldn't end--I chose to put my hope in God and pray that He do His will. I had NO IDEA whether the divorce would be finalized or if my exH would harden his heart or if he might have a lightbulb moment and come to God! I had NO IDEA if I should give up and "get over" my exH--or if I should just ignore it all--or what! But you know what I DID know??

I knew the kind of woman God had commanded me to be. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you..." (John 13:34) The apostle Paul wrote: "...faith, hope, love abide...but the greatest of these is love." (I Cor. 13:13) To me, that means that love is a number one spiritual priority, so I studied the fruits of love in Gal. 5:22 & 23 and started to intimately understand those fruits. As a mature, spiritual, godly woman, I am COMMANDED to be loving toward my exH--even the man who hurt me, left me, defiled our marriage bed, cheated on me, lied to me, abused me and turned his back on me. Is that not loving my exH as God loved me?

I KNEW that I was commanded to love, and so I decided to behave lovingly. Tony, it doesn't matter if you become divorced or not, you are to reach out to her in love. While you spin your wheels trying to keep up with the rollercoaster of emotions that swirl around an affair and a divorce, it can be easy to lose sight of what is the very heart of life as a believer--God's love for you and His commandment to reach out to others in love.

But my dear, valuable, precious brother, do you know what I know?? You understand this intellectually in your head, and you are willing in your heart, but somehow you are stuck. It's not happening. You have the urge, but no power to perform it (Rom. 7:18). Why? Know why?? Because you can not give away what you do not have!! You are a human, and you are trying to walk in God's love, but you are doing so under your own strength. You can not demonstrate God's love because you have never stopped to RECEIVE it for yourself!!

Please look in verse 31 of Isaiah 40--the very chapter you quoted. It says "...but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength..." Doesn't that sort of imply that their strength NEEDS to be renewed?? And doesn't strength need to be renewed when the person is weary?? Then it is ESTJ logic to say that God does not promise us that we will never grow weary...just that when we put our hope in Him, that He will RENEW us. You are weary, and now it is time for you to rest and renew and recharge in the glory of God's love.

Dear brother, love has a start and a finish. First God loves us and by faith we receive His love. Then we LOVE OURSELVES IN A BALANCED WAY, we give love back to God, and we learn to love other people. Are you loveable? Deep down, do you have biblical knowing that you are loveable? God loves us because He wants to; it pleases Him. God loves us because that is His nature...God IS love. God's love is based on HIM not us!! (Boy...think about THAT for a minute!!) Once you realize that you are loved by God, not because of whether you are married or divorced, but because of HIM then you can quit trying to earn His love by being "good Tony" and simply RECEIVE IT and enjoy it.

Start by affirming that God loves you; say it out loud several times a day when you are alone. Get used to hearing it and get comfortable with the thought of it. Bask in His love, soak it in, and let it saturate your soul, your thinking, AND YOUR FEELINGS. Once your heart is filled with the knowledge of God's love, you can begin to love Him in return. Your soul will be renewed; you will soar on wings like eagles; and you WILL be reduced to love.

Tony, encouraging hugs to you and think on these things--ponder them before you just dismiss them, okay??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">29 He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.
30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have put my hope in the Lord, yet I'm weary, I'm faint, and I'm certainly not soaring.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TB, you need to reexamine your motives and beliefs here. It appears that you are equating "hope" with you doing some work of "hoping" that REQUIRES God to submit to your "demand" immediately. God is Sovereign and WILL accomplish HIS purpose according to HIS will and in HIS time. Why then has Jesus tarried in His return to establish His kingdom on earth? Is it because He is to act according to our desire or timetable or because He WILL act according to the Father's timetable to accomplish the fullness of God's will?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So that is why I don't believe I'm hearing from the Lord, this promise is not coming true, even if the marriage is over, then I should be able to count on this, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TB - The 1st 7 words of this quoted sentence sum up the problem. You stubbornly refuse to believe. You still cling to the notion that you must "see" or "feel" the results of God's promise in your timing, not God's timing. You are being impatient and believing Satan's lie, "See, God didn't REALLY mean what He said."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm supposed to be able to run and not grow weary. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God gives you the strength you need for TODAY, and only today. The future IS in God's hands and worry is merely another sin of distrusting God's promise. For today, Philippians 4:13 is sufficient.

You remain "weary" because you place "feeling" (emotions) above surrrender, waiting, believing, and trusting the LORD God. GOD, not us, is SOVEREIGN.

God IS faithful to ALL of His promises, according to His perfect will, not our impatience.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and by burden is light." (Matt.11: 28-30 NIV)

"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a tie to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
What does the worker gain from his toil? I have seen the burden God has laid on men.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. (Eccl.3:1-11a)

It IS God's timetable, not ours.

I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you. So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. (Is.41:9-10 NIV)

I am the LORD; in its time I will do this swiftly. (Is.60:22b NIV)

Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" (Jer.32: 26 NIV)

I called on your name, O LORD, from the depths of the pit. You heard my plea: "Do not close your ears to my cry for relief." You came near when I called you, and you said, "Do not fear." (Lam.3:55-57 NIV)

Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. The men were amazed and asked, "What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!" (Matt.8: 24-27 NIV)

HE is the Lord. He is Sovereign. He is the Master, we are His servants, He is not our servant. He accomplishes His will in His time.

Perhaps the following from Marriage Whose Dream? by Paul David Tripp will help to clarify and center your mind:

" Do you have a dream for your marriage? If you had to write down your dream, would you start with,

&#8220;If only . . .&#8221;

&#8220;If I could just have . . .&#8221;

&#8220;If God would just give me . . .&#8221;

and end with,

&#8220;THEN I could be happy&#8221;?

Most of us are pretty sure we know what we need to be happy. We know what we want God to do in our lives, in our marriages, in our spouses.

But sometimes Jesus takes us by surprise. He has a different plan. In John 6, for example, a whole group of people think they know exactly what they need from Jesus, but Jesus thinks otherwise. In this familiar story, Jesus turns a little boy&#8217;s lunch into a meal for five thousand people, with leftovers to spare.

The crowd is amazed. This Man is tremendous! Everyone is buzzing, saying to one another, &#8220;This is the Messiah! He&#8217;s come! Let&#8217;s grab him and make him our king.&#8221;

It would seem that this is the golden moment for Jesus. Didn&#8217;t he come to King of these people? And isn&#8217;t he the Prophet of prophets?

Yes---but notice what Jesus does. He withdraws from their presence, and even disappears. The crowd looks all over for him, determined to make him their king. But he doesn&#8217;t want anything to do with their plans. Why not? Isn&#8217;t this why he came to earth?


Miracles and Signs

Let&#8217;s see what he does next. John 6:25 reports that Jesus has crossed over to Galilee and the crowd finds him there.

When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him,
&#8220;Rabbi, when did you get here?&#8221;

Jesus answered, &#8220;I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father as placed his seal of approval.&#8221;

Then they asked him, &#8220;What must we do to do the work that God requires?&#8221;

Jesus answered, &#8220;The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.&#8221;

So they asked him, &#8220;What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: &#8216;He gave them bread from heaven to eat.&#8217;&#8221;

Jesus said to them, &#8220;I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.&#8221;

&#8220;Sir,&#8221; they said, &#8220;from now on, give us this bread.&#8221;

The Jesus declared, &#8220;I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen and still you do not believe.&#8221; (vv. 25-36)

Jesus is saying to these people, &#8220;You&#8217;ve seen me, yes, but you&#8217;ve missed the whole point of why I am here.

John helps us understand what Jesus is getting at when he describes Jesus&#8217; miracles as signs. The people John talks about in chapter 6 have experienced the miracle of Jesus and the bread, but they have not realized that it is just a sign.

What does a sign do? It points to something else, to where you really want to be. When you take a vacation, you don&#8217;t stop at the road sign with your family and say, &#8220;We&#8217;re here! Unpack, honey!&#8221; You keep going until you reach your actual destination. The sign only points you in the right direction, to the real thing.

And so, in John&#8217;s story, the physical blessing of bread---the miracle---was meant to point to a much deeper spiritual reality: Jesus himself.

Christ was saying, in effect, &#8220;You&#8217;re not getting it. You&#8217;re concentrating on the miracle of the bread, as if the bread, and not I myself, were the ultimate need of your lives.&#8221; Their bellies had been filled, but they had not yet been truly fed.

What was behind the crowd&#8217;s interest in Christ? What did the people really want? In other word, what kind of Messiah were they hoping he would be?

It seems that these people were not pursuing Christ out of humble submission and a willingness to follow him wherever he would lead. Instead, they were hoping that Christ would give them what they felt they needed for life. Thus, their pursuit of Christ was born not out of love for him but out of love for self."


" What is Peter telling us about the &#8220;now,&#8221; and what does it mean for our marriages?

He&#8217;s telling us that &#8220;now&#8221; is about something much deeper than getting up in the morning with a smile, or romantic weekends, or fulfilling intimacy.

Peter is teaching us that God is willing to compromise these seemingly essential aspects of marriage in order to produce something greater, fuller, and deeper in our lives: genuine faith.

This is what God is after in the midst of those painful experiences that cause us to wonder if he really loves us and hears our prayers; the times when we find ourselves envying other believers and even those who don&#8217;t yet know the Lord.

Such troubling experiences are sent our way because God is not done with us yet.

In the midst of trial, he is giving us the goal of our faith: the salvation of our souls. And what we need to learn to say in response is not &#8220;God, why me?&#8221; but &#8220;God, thank You. Give me more. I want everything that You know I need. I realize now that the struggle of this moment is not a mistake after all. It&#8217;s an act of Your perfect, redemptive love.&#8221;

This sort of response does not come naturally to us; it runs counter to what lies deep in our hearts as sinners. What we wish is not only that life would be easy, but that it would be a resort.

The greatest marketing concept in Western culture right now is the all-inclusive resort. You pay your money and get whatever you want, whenever you want it. Someone explained one of these deals to me by saying they include &#8220;twelve stated meals a day.&#8221; He said, &#8220;The last meal is at midnight, but at 2:00 A.M. you can order pizza in your room if you want.&#8221; Sounds like fun to me. No one can say no to you! At any moment, you can decide to do whatever you want.

If God wanted life to be a resort, this is what it would be like. But we need to look at our lives in the here and now with different eyes, and see that God has placed each one of us in the resort of his choosing!

The blessings that God gives you in your family, in the husband and wife relationship, in your physical life, are meant to point to a deeper and fuller blessing: the actual presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in your life. He is life abundant---not your husband or wife, your house, or your children. Jesus Christ is ours, and we are his.


Our Deepest Hunger

In John 6, Jesus says, &#8220;I am the bread of life.&#8221; We need to ask ourselves, &#8220;what kind of bread do I really hunger for? What kind of bread do I really want to feed on?&#8221;

Now, I&#8217;m not saying that we shouldn&#8217;t seek to improve our marriages and families. But I think that we can miss the point. We can be like the people who pursued Jesus, wanting him only insofar as he was able to keep their stomachs full.

Are you coming to Jesus because you&#8217;re holding onto your dream and you hope that somehow, some way, Jesus will help you get it? If that&#8217;s all you want from him, then you&#8217;re going to be miserably disappointed if your dreams don&#8217;t come true. If you are living for earthly bread, and that&#8217;s the source of life, you&#8217;re in big trouble when you don&#8217;t receive it.

But if you&#8217;re living for spiritual bread, for a deeper communion with the Lord Jesus Christ, then your marriage relationship becomes a wonderful place to live that out.

When two people are committed to Christ and long to know him better, more fully, and more deeply, they will experience unity and intimacy that unbelievers cannot know. Their lives will be transformed into expressions of praise and worship and glory to him.

Only by getting their own selves out of the way is it possible for them to know unity in the Spirit as children of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so a more satisfying unity as husband and wife will follow.

People whose eyes are just on the physical bread will end up devouring each other because the physical bread alone cannot ever satisfy. You will be a parasite on your mate, sucking his or her blood: but he or she will never, ever, give you enough.

There&#8217;s only one Bread---it&#8217;s Jesus. And life is found in feeding on him by faith.

Do you know what happened when Jesus proclaimed that message---when he said that unless you eat his bread and drink his blood, you won&#8217;t enter the kingdom of heaven (John 6:53-59)? Not only did the crowd forsake him, but Scripture says that many of his disciples left as well (v. 66). They basically said, &#8220;Lord, this is a hard teaching.&#8221;

And it is, isn&#8217;t it?"


" How can we different? Scripture gives us a rich example in the book of Habakkuk, and Old Testament prophet. Habakkuk looked around at the people of God and said, &#8220;God, I don&#8217;t understand what&#8217;s going on here. You&#8217;ve allowed Your people to be very wicked. You&#8217;re a holy God. I don&#8217;t understand what You&#8217;re doing. Why don&#8217;t You do something about this?&#8221;

And God said, &#8220;Okay, I will. I&#8217;ll send and evil, violent nation from the north to come down and wipe them out.&#8221;

And the prophet said, &#8220;What?!&#8221; He&#8217;d been thinking revival. Judgment was not in his catalog! He said, &#8220;God, how can You do this? How can You use a nation more evil than we are to judge us? It doesn&#8217;t make any sense!&#8221;

But after Habakkuk had this battle with God, God began to reveal his power and his glory to him. In fact, God&#8217;s love and care were so real to Habakkuk that he ended his book with these powerful words:

Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though there are not sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD. I will be joyful in God my Savior. The Sovereign LORD is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, he enables me to go on the heights. (3:17-19)

What has he just described about a farming culture? There&#8217;s nothing left: no plants, no trees, no animals. Habakkuk sees all the devastation, yet responds with joy!

If your dreams for your marriage were to crumble, if your marriage were to appear dry and bare, could you still rise and say, &#8220;I am full of joy because the Lord is Lord of my life, and gloriously, in the midst of all the struggle, I have him&#8221;?

It is truly possible to know Jesus in this way, but it requires a choice: Will you pursue your dream, or will you pursue the Lord&#8217;s dream for you?

Here&#8217;s the reality: God&#8217;s goodness, love, power, strength, and glory---and his call to you---do not change when your situation seem bleak and empty. He is still there and he still satisfies.

What is the deepest hunger of your heart today? Oh, that it would be for Christ! If your hunger is for him, your marriage will bring wonderful opportunities for mutual growth and sanctification. They may come in the midst of trial. Life may not be a resort. But in the end you and your spouse will look more like Christ and be much closer to him.

Whose dream are you seeking? May God help us to be people who see the sign behind the miracle, who can look at earthly blessing and say, &#8220;These blessings point me to a deeper, fuller reality of Christ in my life. I want my life to be about communion, fellowship, submission, love, and obedience to the precious Lord Jesus Christ.&#8221;

The Messiah has come! Let&#8217;s follow him by faith. Let&#8217;s rise up in the morning---no matter what is going on in our marriage---and say, &#8220;I am so full of joy. I am a child of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. He is in my life. I will follow him by faith.&#8221;

Lord, it is so easy to get caught up in our own desires and dreams. It&#8217;s so easy to think of You as the deliverer of our dreams, so easy to be excited like the multitude and lose sight of the spiritual reality behind the miracle. Lord, I pray that we would not just pursue our own hopes and dreams, but that we would express a hunger and thirst for Jesus Christ, and a desire to know his will in every area in our lives. We want Christ to rule in every room in our homes. We want Christ to rule in the darkest recesses of our hearts. We want to live in joyful submission and feed on You by faith. May we have joy, and faith, and courage even when we aren&#8217;t experiencing physical bread. In those experiences of trial, may we say, &#8220;Thank You, Lord, for Your love---You are completing Your saving work.&#8221; God help us. In Jesus&#8217; name, Amen."


TB, may God bless and strengthen you through this time of testing and struggle. May the dross be burned off and may the Potter shape a vessel of His choosing and for His honor and glory.

FH,

I only see the devistation. I'm asking God to show me the joy you mention.

I'm not throwing a tantrum soley about my marriage failing, although I am sad about that.

My concern is two-fold:

The marriage has failed and a I know that is not God's will, but He allows it to suit His purpose.

With difficulty, I accept that.

The second concern is that God's will, as I understand it, is to have a close relationship with Him, to rely on Him for your every need, to be able to take every care to Him and He will provide, according to his will.

Well, if it is the will of God to have a close relationship with me, and I seek the same will, why does God seem so distant? Why does comfort, not necessarily getting my way, but hearing, feeling and experiencing that God is there and working, seem so elusive?

Right now, I feel as if the two most important relationships in my life are dead, and I don't have the power or ability to do anything about either one.

One pledged to love me until she died and has broken that promise. The other in His word says He will be there, yet I don't seem to experience it.

It's not that I want my way. Rather, I want to be closer to God. Isn't that what God wants?

TB

Java --

The experience of God is not the presence of God. He is still with you, sustaining you through other means. He's in my words, and those of others on this board. He's in the sunshine and the stranger. He's not always that still small voice and the comforting presence, but let that whet your appetite and keep seeking him.

You might read "Practicing the Presence of God, by Brother Lawrence." It has a few good things to say about that as well.

And don't neglect the Body of Christ, because they are there to help provide God's presence as well.

Java--

Any time you feel you need it. Email me. I can either email you, or I can give you my cell and you can call me. I will pray with you, talk with, or just listen. Whatever you need.

I see that you found that your church was full of people who did not want to see. I can't say I'm surprised, but I am sorry.

TB - I'm afraid that I have a serious knowledge deficit regarding your situation since you've been on the system so long and this, as far as I can remember, is the first thread of yours that I responded to.

I spent a fair amount of time trying read your old posts (back to around Nov. 2003), but that was about the time your wife was leaving for her own apartment. There is much that I don't know about what led up to all of that, so I am very limited in what I can say or comment about your situation.

I have responded to this thread because another member pointed you out and asked for me, and other Christians, to try to help you. I have no interest in "arguing" points with you, especially points about subjective feelings.

I have to be very candid with you, though, that I am very perplexed that in all of the reading of your prior posts that I did, I got very little about this sin being against God. What I got was an overwhelming amount about how you felt the affair was wrong and would not tolerate the offense against you, that you laid down ultimatums, and that you practiced Love Busters.

I understand that, but where was God in all of this? Yes, I read the ONE post where you said you talked to the OM and asked him if he (he is supposedly a Christian) thinks God approves of his meddling and messing up a marriage, but again, I heard YOU, not God talking.

I heard nothing about a Matthew 18:15-20 type of intervention. But then, I also read nothing about your wife being a Christian or not.

I may be off base because I have come into this discussion so late, but it seems to be the same problem that we have been dancing with on this thread, it's all about you and your feelings, not about God.

Oh I hear the tacit acknowledgment of God, but I don't hear the surrender. I hear control. I hear TB wants it his way. I hear TB almost trying to manipulate God to give him a "feeling." I hear "God owes me what I want" even if that is not how God is trying to help me right now.

However, I also hear hopeful statements such as, "It's not that I want my way. Rather, I want to be closer to God. Isn't that what God wants?
"

Yes, that IS what God wants.

"Well, if it is the will of God to have a close relationship with me, and I seek the same will, why does God seem so distant? Why does comfort, not necessarily getting my way, but hearing, feeling and experiencing that God is there and working, seem so elusive?"

Why do YOU think that God seems so distant? Could it be a problem with trust? You need to "feel, hear, and experience" BEFORE you can trust God to be faithful to His promises. Perhaps you really don't believe God.

God asks you to release your worries and fears no matter how hard it seems to do, and simply trust Him like a child trusts a father. You simply choose to trust God and require NOTHING in return from God. God is Sovereign. You are His to do with as He sees fit, to command as He sees fit, to reward or not reward as He chooses, to break your old mishapen pot and then take the time needed to reform the broken shards into a better vessel of service to Him...all in God's time, not yours. But as a loving Father, He has promised to take care of you because he LOVES you, whether you "feel" it or not, whether you think you "getting what you want" or not. God is NOT in the "Feeling Business," He is in the Faith Business.

One of the reasons for much of Scripture, like Psalm 23, is to acknowledge that we are going to have very trying times when we do feel so distant from God, so distant that we can't see Him (or feel Him). And He says to simply trust Him to lead you, to use His rod and His staff to provide comfort. To quite your thoughts, fears, doubts, sense of aloneness...to be alone with God, in quite...."be still and KNOW that I am God."

God bless. Reach out with your hand as a child does with its father. Take God's hand and let Him lead, even though you don't know where He is leading you and even though you can't "see or feel" the proferred Peace yet. Trust God.

JSC, in case you are still reading this thread i'll go ahead and say a few words. i'll admit that i read this thread almost as soon as it was started but stopped shortly after because of what i was hearing from you. i know a little more about your situation than others and a lot less then some but I'm sorry, all i got from all of your posts in this thread is your arrogance and a slap in the face by YOU to all those here.

how can you come here and ask for help but not want to hear the things that are said? you said "I'm willing to follow the direction of God, but it must be unmistakably a message from God and not just a well meaning message from other believers. So what I ask of you folks today is that you not tell me what you think God would have me do, but that you ask God to tell me in such a fashion is that it is unmistakably Him speaking." well this is totally an oxy moron by asking us for help but at the same time saying you don't want just well meaning messages from other believers.

i don't feel like i can really add to the conversation at all, but pretty much feel everyone here is on the mark especially CJ, who at one time i thought was someone you thought of highly and talked w/often. you are not going to get the answers JSV is seeking by coming across the way you are and in truth maybe you will never have that here on MB. i'm sure if you are still reading this your heart rate has increased and you are probably getting defensive, etc. but there is something to the saying "the truth hurts." you have God's word, you are choosing not to hear it.

prayers to you, RR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by roughroad:
<strong> JSC, in case you are still reading this thread i'll go ahead and say a few words. i'll admit that i read this thread almost as soon as it was started but stopped shortly after because of what i was hearing from you. i know a little more about your situation than others and a lot less then some but I'm sorry, all i got from all of your posts in this thread is your arrogance and a slap in the face by YOU to all those here.

how can you come here and ask for help but not want to hear the things that are said? you said "I'm willing to follow the direction of God, but it must be unmistakably a message from God and not just a well meaning message from other believers. So what I ask of you folks today is that you not tell me what you think God would have me do, but that you ask God to tell me in such a fashion is that it is unmistakably Him speaking." well this is totally an oxy moron by asking us for help but at the same time saying you don't want just well meaning messages from other believers.

i don't feel like i can really add to the conversation at all, but pretty much feel everyone here is on the mark especially CJ, who at one time i thought was someone you thought of highly and talked w/often. you are not going to get the answers JSV is seeking by coming across the way you are and in truth maybe you will never have that here on MB. i'm sure if you are still reading this your heart rate has increased and you are probably getting defensive, etc. but there is something to the saying "the truth hurts." you have God's word, you are choosing not to hear it.

prayers to you, RR </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still reading, and I do have my reasons.

What is wrong for wanting to be 100% certain?

Please re-read the book of Job, there were a lot of well meaning folks who thought they were telling Job what they thought God wanted him to hear.

Then God spoke.

TB

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony,

I’ve been reading your posts ever since you started posting. I was in the group of people exchanging e-mails with you in Feb. I know you want to hear from God in an unmistakable way. According to your posts you say you’ve been reading God’s word. I’m glad, because I’m going to ask you some questions. I’m not asking you this just to hear myself talk (type). I’m really serious about it.

What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your wife, your marriage, your daughter and your life? What do you really think He wants to happen? And “I don’t know” won’t cut it. Because deep down I think you know these answers.

If you would, could you answer each one individually, because they are individual questions? Think about them for a bit before you answer. I don’t want a response, I want well thought out answers.

After you answer; there’s something I want you to do with those answers. I’ll tell you what after you reply. If you would rather e-mail me, that is ok too. You should have my e-mail address. If not, go to the link in my sig. Or just ask me for it.

Brother I’m sorry for what you are going through and you continue to be in my prayers.

Blessing to you.

S&C

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: steadfast and committed ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> Tony,



What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your wife?
</strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That she is loved by Him, but she is not honoring the vow that she made before Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your marriage?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That it certainly didn't honor Him before, that we could honor Him and have a successful marriage if we BOTH seek His will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your daughter?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That she would best be raised in a family that loves and serves God. It's God's will that all should know Him, and that parents raise up a child in the ways of the Lord. So God wants to know her as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your life?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not lived up to my potential that He created in me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
What do you really think He wants to happen?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wants His will in each of those.

Now that I've answered, why can't I say I don't know? If God wants these things, or more correctly I believe He wants these things based on what I know scripturally or in the case of His opinion of me, personally, then with the exception of me living up to my potential, why don't they happen?

I know, I'm trying to apply logic here and God's ways are not my ways. Ok, I admit that it's hard for me to accept, and I need some help with this, some major help.

So why is it when I feel I need the most help, to have the clarity to understand that I'm hearing from God and not from Eliphaz, Bildad or Zophar, that I am not sure.

I know God is not the God of confusion, so if I'm confused, it's not from God.

So I'm asking for God to clear up the confusion, to break down any barriers to me serving Him.

Doesn't mean I'll be perfect, and frankly, I think Jesus teaches us that we cannot be perfect, that we must endeavor to have a relationship with Him (John 3, for example)

People are getting down on me for questioning God, and frankly, I believe that God wants us to question Him.

Why do I believe this?

Why would God allow the doubts of Thomas or the man with the possesed son be part of scripture if it wasn't ok to doubt?

That tells me clearly that God wants us to doubt, and to work to find the answers to get through the doubt.

Maybe I'm a bit more melodramatic than was Thomas, but my doubts are no less valid and certainly are not a sin. If they were, we would see a rebuke for those who expressed doubts, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
If you would, could you answer each one individually, because they are individual questions? Think about them for a bit before you answer. I don’t want a response, I want well thought out answers.

After you answer; there’s something I want you to do with those answers. I’ll tell you what after you reply. If you would rather e-mail me, that is ok too. You should have my e-mail address. If not, go to the link in my sig. Or just ask me for it.

Brother I’m sorry for what you are going through and you continue to be in my prayers.

Blessing to you.

S&C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

If its any consolation, the wanting clear direction is driving me up the wall too.

Most of the time I am waiting for something to happen that I can respond to.

And the only way I feel sure is Gods way of responding is to apply more love.

When I don't know what else to do, I try for more love, more understanding. The love your enemies and pray for those who hurt you, bit...

I try to think what I would need from him if the shoe was on the other foot.

Frustrating, not knowing if I have a husband or not.
But its too much to bear to think that the past 20 years of loving him and praying for him have all been a waste of time.

I do not accept that.

Hers what it boils down to for me is:
Will I still love him even if we are never together as man and wife again? Would I still pray my guts out even if I knew there was nothing in it for me?


This is hard, yes?

Tony,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

“What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your wife?”

That she is loved by Him, but she is not honoring the vow that she made before Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Do you consider her a prodigal? Do you think God considers her a prodigal? Do you know the ways in which God may handle His wayward children?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your marriage?’

That it certainly didn't honor Him before, that we could honor Him and have a successful marriage if we BOTH seek His will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again. With the key word being “BOTH”. And what if only one of you is willing to seek His will?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your daughter?”

That she would best be raised in a family that loves and serves God. It's God's will that all should know Him, and that parents raise up a child in the ways of the Lord. So God wants to know her as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct again. But what if only one parent is willing to do that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your life?’

I have not lived up to my potential that He created in me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may very well be true, but that is in the past (if you’ve asked for forgiveness then God doesn’t care about it any more). The question is, are you living up to your potential now regarding you and your daughter?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think He wants to happen?”

He wants His will in each of those.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on what you know about God, what do you think His will really is for each of these? Answer them individually.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

why can't I say I don't know?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I wanted you to really think about the answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

If God wants these things, or more correctly I believe He wants these things based on what I know scripturally or in the case of His opinion of me, personally, then with the exception of me living up to my potential, why don't they happen?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why “with the exception of you living up to your potential”?

When your daughter is old enough to marry and if she finds a man of questionable character, what would you do? Will you force her to stop seeing the man? Or will you in your strongest means possible try to dissuade her from choosing him? After having done that, will you still let her choose?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

I know, I'm trying to apply logic here and God's ways are not my ways. Ok, I admit that it's hard for me to accept, and I need some help with this, some major help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it’s hard. When my W asked me for a D, it shattered my life. But Abraham didn’t know what God was going to do when he raised the knife to sacrifice his son. All he knew was that it was God’s will that he would be a father of nations. When God told me that my M would be blessed, I remembered that He never said that my M to my W would be blessed. I just knew that He would heal my heart and I would have a blessed M. It was at that point that I quit hanging on to the M and focused on allowing God to heal me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

So why is it when I feel I need the most help, to have the clarity to understand that I'm hearing from God and not from Eliphaz, Bildad or Zophar, that I am not sure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because the enemy will try to confuse you to keep you from doing what scripture says. He will tell you to rely on your feelings rather than the promises of God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

I know God is not the God of confusion, so if I'm confused, it's not from God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again. So if you are confused what does God provide you to clear up the confusion?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

So I'm asking for God to clear up the confusion, to break down any barriers to me serving Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if you are confused what does God provide you to clear up the confusion?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

Doesn't mean I'll be perfect, and frankly, I think Jesus teaches us that we cannot be perfect, that we must endeavor to have a relationship with Him (John 3, for example)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

People are getting down on me for questioning God, and frankly, I believe that God wants us to question Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think God can handle any question we have. He’s bigger than that. Goodness if he can’t handle a mere mortal questioning Him then he’s a pretty small God in my book. Where I think God gets disappointed, is when He provides answers to us and we ignore them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

That tells me clearly that God wants us to doubt, and to work to find the answers to get through the doubt.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He gave us minds to think with. He expects us to use them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

Maybe I'm a bit more melodramatic than was Thomas, but my doubts are no less valid and certainly are not a sin. If they were, we would see a rebuke for those who expressed doubts, right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right.

Sorry I’m late in responding. If I remember right there are a few time zones between us and I hope you are getting some valuable zzz's as I write this.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but if you're patient with me, I hope you get some of your answers.

Bless you.

S&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> Tony,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

“What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your wife?”

That she is loved by Him, but she is not honoring the vow that she made before Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Do you consider her a prodigal? Do you think God considers her a prodigal? Do you know the ways in which God may handle His wayward children?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any number of ways, but it seems he just waits for them to come back for the most part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your marriage?’

That it certainly didn't honor Him before, that we could honor Him and have a successful marriage if we BOTH seek His will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again. With the key word being “BOTH”. And what if only one of you is willing to seek His will?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, God get's dissed, and the one who seeks to honor God might be hurt. Sure God takes care of the partner who chooses to honor those vows, but that doesn't relieve a bit of the hurt to know that right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your daughter?”

That she would best be raised in a family that loves and serves God. It's God's will that all should know Him, and that parents raise up a child in the ways of the Lord. So God wants to know her as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct again. But what if only one parent is willing to do that?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That parent still has to do what God expects, even if the other parent doesn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think God’s opinion is regarding your life?’

I have not lived up to my potential that He created in me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may very well be true, but that is in the past (if you’ve asked for forgiveness then God doesn’t care about it any more). The question is, are you living up to your potential now regarding you and your daughter?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm getting better everyday. I probably still spend too much time here at MB instead of dealing with my customers for example, but I don't visit when I have my D with me. That's just one way I can think of.

I've volunteered to work in my church, but so far this year they have not taken me up on my offer, so I guess God (or at least this church) doesn't have anything for me to do in that regard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

”What do you really think He wants to happen?”

He wants His will in each of those.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on what you know about God, what do you think His will really is for each of these? Answer them individually.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

why can't I say I don't know?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I wanted you to really think about the answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

If God wants these things, or more correctly I believe He wants these things based on what I know scripturally or in the case of His opinion of me, personally, then with the exception of me living up to my potential, why don't they happen?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why “with the exception of you living up to your potential”?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with the exception... that part was my opinion. They are all really my opinion, and that's why I want to really hear from God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

When your daughter is old enough to marry and if she finds a man of questionable character, what would you do? Will you force her to stop seeing the man? Or will you in your strongest means possible try to dissuade her from choosing him? After having done that, will you still let her choose?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, I can't force her to do anything, I can only raise her in the way of the Lord and hope that she will make good choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

I know, I'm trying to apply logic here and God's ways are not my ways. Ok, I admit that it's hard for me to accept, and I need some help with this, some major help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it’s hard. When my W asked me for a D, it shattered my life. But Abraham didn’t know what God was going to do when he raised the knife to sacrifice his son. All he knew was that it was God’s will that he would be a father of nations. When God told me that my M would be blessed, I remembered that He never said that my M to my W would be blessed. I just knew that He would heal my heart and I would have a blessed M. It was at that point that I quit hanging on to the M and focused on allowing God to heal me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

So why is it when I feel I need the most help, to have the clarity to understand that I'm hearing from God and not from Eliphaz, Bildad or Zophar, that I am not sure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because the enemy will try to confuse you to keep you from doing what scripture says. He will tell you to rely on your feelings rather than the promises of God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

I know God is not the God of confusion, so if I'm confused, it's not from God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again. So if you are confused what does God provide you to clear up the confusion?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He provides His word, and when I read His word, I see that this is not His will. I read that He will provide peace and I have no peace. It is His word that is so darn confusing.

I'd like to ask the author for some clarification, some specifics as they relate to my life. So I pray, and I hear nothing. I've heard answers before, now I hear nothing.

Maybe what I heard before wasn't really God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

So I'm asking for God to clear up the confusion, to break down any barriers to me serving Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if you are confused what does God provide you to clear up the confusion?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above. Oh, and if you are looking for the Holy Spirit as well, I'm not feeling or hearing that either.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

Doesn't mean I'll be perfect, and frankly, I think Jesus teaches us that we cannot be perfect, that we must endeavor to have a relationship with Him (John 3, for example)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

People are getting down on me for questioning God, and frankly, I believe that God wants us to question Him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think God can handle any question we have. He’s bigger than that. Goodness if he can’t handle a mere mortal questioning Him then he’s a pretty small God in my book. Where I think God gets disappointed, is when He provides answers to us and we ignore them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

That tells me clearly that God wants us to doubt, and to work to find the answers to get through the doubt.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He gave us minds to think with. He expects us to use them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:

Maybe I'm a bit more melodramatic than was Thomas, but my doubts are no less valid and certainly are not a sin. If they were, we would see a rebuke for those who expressed doubts, right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right.

Sorry I’m late in responding. If I remember right there are a few time zones between us and I hope you are getting some valuable zzz's as I write this.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but if you're patient with me, I hope you get some of your answers.

Bless you.

S&C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I sound combative, and frankly, it's hard to just hear the "pat" answers because I really need to experience them.

Of course the problem is all mine, God is perfect, so I must be screwed up.

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
but it seems he just waits for them to come back for the most part.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that what it says happened to the prodigal in the Bible? What had to happen before the Prodigal Son decided to return? Could he still have choosen to reject his father?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, God get's dissed, and the one who seeks to honor God might be hurt. Sure God takes care of the partner who chooses to honor those vows, but that doesn't relieve a bit of the hurt to know that right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like you're saying, the one the honors God gets hurt because they chose to honor God; instead of, they get hurt because the actions of the one that doesn't honor God. If neither one honored God the hurt would still be there.

No it doesn't relieve the the hurt, because you have feelings for your W and she chooses to treat you like crap. It wouldn't feel that bad if you didn't have those feelings. But that ain't going to happen any time soon is it?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That parent still has to do what God expects, even if the other parent doesn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if it hurts to do it without the other?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm getting better everyday.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How are you getting better everyday?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've volunteered to work in my church, but so far this year they have not taken me up on my offer, so I guess God (or at least this church) doesn't have anything for me to do in that regard.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that because they feel you need some more healing or do they think you are damaged goods and undesirable for ministry?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, I can't force her to do anything, I can only raise her in the way of the Lord and hope that she will make good choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you know why God doesn't force your W to come back to Him or you. Because, it needs to be of her own free will. What good does it do either of you if she is forced to submit? And what good will your M be if she comes back to you but still rejects God? Can you live like that either? I had to answer those questions myself. That's when I realized that it was more important to have her come back to God first. Because if she didn't return to God, it was only a matter of time before she strayed again. I'd always be wondering about any relationship she had with any man. And you will too.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So why is it when I feel I need the most help, to have the clarity to understand that I'm hearing from God and not from Eliphaz, Bildad or Zophar, that I am not sure.

Because the enemy will try to confuse you to keep you from doing what scripture says. He will tell you to rely on your feelings rather than the promises of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why no comment about this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He provides His word, and when I read His word, I see that this is not His will. I read that He will provide peace and I have no peace. It is His word that is so darn confusing.

I'd like to ask the author for some clarification, some specifics as they relate to my life. So I pray, and I hear nothing. I've heard answers before, now I hear nothing.


Maybe what I heard before wasn't really God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't know. But I do know, when I want to know if God is speaking to me I can check it against Scripture to see if it agrees.


[quote}See above. Oh, and if you are looking for the Holy Spirit as well, I'm not feeling or hearing that either.[/quote]

Have you tested the answers you've gotten against Scripture to see if the answers are sound?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I sound combative, and frankly, it's hard to just hear the "pat" answers because I really need to experience them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you consider answers that refer to Scripture "pat answers"? Because 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course the problem is all mine, God is perfect, so I must be screwed up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, quite frankly God is perfect and we are all screwed up. That's why we need to have wise counsel around in the form of Godly friends and to read God's word for ourselves. Because we don't always see clearly enough to survive the storms.

When I read now I pray the prayer Paul prayed for the Ephesians Chapter 1 verses 17-20. I pray it for myself and my W.

Bless you.

S&C

try listening to this- very good.

http://www.intouch.org/highlights/thisfall/enemystrikes/webcast_39117043.html

When the Enemy Strikes - Charles Stanley - Live Webcast

Peace Out...and IN!

TB,

I read your post and told my husband, I remember feeling just like this man does. I got so upset one night I threw my Bible across the room. I was needing to hear from God and was reading His word in order to get an answer, to hear Him, or just to get some direction. I would come across a scripture and then I would think, well did God give me that scripture or was I just looking so hard I found what I wanted to hear? I became so frustrated.

Believe me that wasn't the only time I had a similar experience during the four years I waited for my husband to come home. I didn't want it to be my will for my husband to come home, I wanted to know if it was God's will. It didn't matter what anyone else told me, I wanted to hear it from God. After fasting for three days, God gave me my answer. He showed me He did want my marriage restored. That was just 11 months after my husband had left.

Yes, even after God gave me His answer, I still questioned Him at times. Again, during hard times I would ask God if I heard him right. Sometimes He would answer me right away. Other times He would seem to take forever to answer me. I would want to give up. I would go through my options and then I would also end right back were I started ... waiting.

You said you wanted to be 100% sure, When my husband first left I ask a friend why couldn't God just tell me my marriage would be restored? That way I would be all right and able to hang on.
She said, then you wouldn't need faith.

We don't know how strong our faith is until it is all we have to hang on to. Keep you eyes on God and hold on to your faith. God will answer you and when he does and then you get where it seems like you can hold on any longer, you will ask Him again.

gentle

hi all- good thread.

Gentle- what is the hits4pay link that you post?

PEACE OUT

It is a web site that pays you to read emails. You also get paid for others reading emails that you sign up. It is not much but if you get enough people you can make a little money.

gentle

Tony?

Yes, I'm still here and still rolling around the last post in my head. I probably can't write much more until later tonight after YD is in bed.

Tony,

Check out this link - Cry of the Spirit Maybe it will help you keep your faith about God's promises. Hope this helps.

Love in Christ,
Y

StandingTogether,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have to be honest and say that didn't really help. Sure, I can understand it intellectually, but it doesn't really help.

I recognize you are trying, and I do appreciate the effort.

TB

JSC--

You brought up Job, so I'm going to throw him back at you a little. Job has always been a favorite book of mine (Although, I admit, I skip through the middle.) But at the end, God says to the wretched comforters, "Shut up, you don't know what your talking about. You've slandered a righteous man, go repent and have him pray for you." Then he turns and says to Job, "Wipe the smirk off your face. Who do you think you are to challenge me? Who do you think you are to try understand my motivation for doing things? What makes you think your mind can contain what my will is?" God then blesses Job and gives him a new set of everything that had been taken away, and even more. (Paraphrased, of course.)

And unfortunately, that's where it's ended. Crap happens. We can't understand why God allows it to happen. God doesn't unhappen it.

For people like you and I (If I am not too presumptuous to once again link you and I together) it is intensely difficult to give up the question "Why?" That is the question that defines our being. And I think it's not a bad thing to ask God, and as you said Argue with him and plead with him and beg him to get a glimpse of why. But remember his answer, "You just ain't gonna get it, 'cause it won't fit in your mind." I gave you some glimpses of potential why's in my first post. There are tons of other whys just waiting to be discovered.

I guess in summary, I don't think you'll ever get your full answer, but keep questioning and you'll start getting partial answers.

I may not be correct, but to me Tony believes God keeps His promises. I believe what Tony is saying is he is just not sure what God has promised him concerning his current situation.

My apologies Tony if I am not right abut this. As I posted earlier, when I read your post it reminded me so much of how I felt many times during the time God had me in the desert. At the time I had a lot of whys and how comes. Later on it was easier to see what God was doing in my life. It especially became easier to see when my husband did come home.

It is hard to walk in faith when you don't believe you are hearing from God. It is hard when you don't know what God is doing on the other side of the mountain for you.

Tony, it took a long time for me but I finally got to the point where I begged God to put the desires He had for me in my heart. I told God I wanted to want what he wanted for me. Our hearts are in His hands, so I knew it had to come from Him. It didn't happen all at once, but when my heart truly cried out to Him, when I truly submitted to Him, things changed. It was a point were I needed my will to be His will.

I hope this helps, I do know the frustration you are going through right now. Sometimes I still am not sure what God wants me to do. There are still things to be worked out in my marriage and with my children. I grateful that God brought my husband home, because that terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach is gone. Praise God He has done great things in my life. There are still times I am not sure what He is saying to me.

I have to have faith that He is or will talk to me
when the time is right. I haven't posted much on here in the time since my husband came home. Your post jumped out at me and then after reading your post I felt I had to take the time to respond. So maybe I was supposed to say something to you. If that is the case, I pray it was said.

gentle

I'm sorry you feel that way Tony, like you I have felt that way for a long time and finally I got some good news. After the law guardian finished with her interviews, she recommended that we have shared physical custody of my 2 children without a designated primary custodial parent. I think it means that when they are with me I'm their custodial parent adn that goes the same for my wife, off course my wife can fight this, but I'm praying to God that she will not. I'm not so sure that is part of the answer that God is giving me, but I think it is all in the big plan that he had for me. Hang in there, I believe that the answer will come in God's time not our. Sometime, I wish that he give it to us in our time..lol..


Gentle,
It is good to see you back, I haven't seen you post in a while. I'm still praying for you as I do for GreggC. How are you these days. God bless!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> Tony? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what do you want me to say?

When I read the promises I get angry and frustrated because I don't see them in my life.

So that's the question, I'm asking God to show that the promises are true for me.

I understand in my head all of what you are saying. It doesn't take an ounce of the pain away.

My WW is saved, knows Christ, so I don't believe this is a salvation issue.

Bottom line is I don't know, and I really don't like not knowing.

I've learned a lot and would like to put it into practice, would like to show her that I have what it takes to love her, etc.

I'm not fond of failure.

I'm broken, defeated, and lacking orders from God, I quit.

I'll be here awaiting His instructions.

TB

Tony,

Can you tell me a bit about how this all came about and where things are at now between the two of you?

Shul

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong> Tony,

Can you tell me a bit about how this all came about and where things are at now between the two of you?

Shul </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought several times I heard God saying that my wife would come back by a certain date, that I would.

These days have come and gone without her returning home.

She is still seeing the OM, and in fact was upset with me about something and didn't even have my YD call me on my birthday about three months ago.

Of course, I made sure YD called her on her birthday a week later while she was vacationing with OM.

So obviously, I'm not hearing God right, or I'm just telling myself something I wanted to hear.

So in July, I took a couple of months off of MB and never felt better. I am a bit disturbed that I could so completely miss God, so I am asking Him to talk to me in such a fashion that it's unmistakably God and not just what others think He might be saying to me.

I do appreciate the good will expressed by the folks here, and I really don't want to be down on them.

I just want to know that I'm hearing from God, and not something that comes from the heart of man.

WW still continues down the D path, and I'm not so sure I want to drag it out. We can marry again if that is God's will, so perhaps I just let her have what she wants, and see where we go from here.

It's not like she is acting like we are married anyway, so why continue the charade?

TB

I am trying to understand this. You mentioned that your wife is a believer, but my impression is that her actions are not consistant with the teachings of Christ.

Tony, what happened to bring about the affair, her leaving etc..?

How long has she been away, how often have you talked, have you been for counseling, has she demonstrated any willingness to reconcile?

Does she express any remorse or guilt over her actions?

What does she give as her reason for leaving you?

Does she blame you in some way?

Was yours a good relationship in the past?

Shul

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong> I am trying to understand this. You mentioned that your wife is a believer, but my impression is that her actions are not consistant with the teachings of Christ.

Tony, what happened to bring about the affair, her leaving etc..?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr. Harley's theory is that I didn't meet her emotional needs. She has simply expressed that she married the wrong guy and never felt like anything she did was good enough for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

How long has she been away, how often have you talked, have you been for counseling, has she demonstrated any willingness to reconcile?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost a year now. We don't talk much anymore. I worked with Steve Harley, she refused to attend any counseling with me citing she didn't want a counsellor to also tell her she was wrong. She has expressed no interest in reconciling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>
Does she express any remorse or guilt over her actions?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The closest she came was a couple of weeks ago admitting that what is happening probably hurts me. That's it, otherwise, it's been that I'm a horrible man, a bad husband, a terrible father, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>
What does she give as her reason for leaving you?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said she married me for all the wrong reasons, but has not elaborated, that if she had had more self esteem, she wouldn't have married me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

Does she blame you in some way?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she wants to put most of the blame on me. She came closest to accepting some blame when she says she made a mistake marrying me. Not taking responsibility for her behavior in the marriage, but rather the mistake she made was to marry me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

Was yours a good relationship in the past?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes and no, I never felt she opened up to me, and I don't think either of us were willing to change to accomodate our partner.

I know I always expressed how I wanted things done, what I wanted, etc.

She was more reserved, and when asked the direct question, is there anything wrong, she often answered, nothing.

She never used the words "I'm unhappy" until she told me she wanted to move out on 9/6/2003. She moved into her apartment on 10/1/2003.

I asked her if there was another man, and she said no. I later found out this was not true, and she admits to spending a weekend with him on 11/9/2003. I got confirmation of the affair on 11/17/2003.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

Shul </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TB

Tony,

She is deceiving herself.

And she is looking for someone to make her happy. It won't happen if she is not willing to work at it. If she 'got' that she would still be with you.

But she doesn't, so this relationship won't work either.

What you can do for her is pray for her and keep the door open for when she crashes.

Shul