I've read that book too. It was one of the first ones I read.

I WW and I are not talking, I don't see how I'm going to do any Winning or Saving.

And if I don't see God at work, then where is my hope?

TB

{{{Java}}}, you have been discouraged for so long...but God can do this.

Thats what faith is; believing God even when you can't see anything. Especially when you can't see.
Doing what he says to do, and trusting him to keep his promises.

You know he wants to bring your wife (and you)into right relationship with him, right?

And you know he wants you to be reconciled, right?

So it follows that he is working to bring this about, right?

Is anything too hard for God?

No.

You are a believer. Your wife is a believer.

From where I sit this is a done deal.

The enemy is the one who is telling you that it won't happen. But he is a liar.

This is one of those times when you just do what God says, and start acting as though it is a done deal.

When you speak in faith, not in doubt.

No more talking about how hard or impossible it is. Instead, you start thanking God for what he is doing.

The catch is , are you willing to do what he says?

As for not seeing her, you don't even have to talk to her, or see her, actually. God can do this even if you don't see her. But when you are ready, we will pray that you get an opportunity to see her and show love to her. Not a problem. Easy for God.

This isn't about you winning or saving- its all about God, and what he is going to do and is doing.

He is the one who is going to do the winning and saving. That is his business. He knows your wife better than you do, and he knows what to do with her.

Your business is to let God work on you, and to love her when he opens that door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong> {{{Java}}}, you have been discouraged for so long...but God can do this.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what everyone keeps telling me, but I'm like the man who wanted his son healed. It's not my belief that's the problem, I need something to help me with my unbelief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>
Thats what faith is; believing God even when you can't see anything. Especially when you can't see.
Doing what he says to do, and trusting him to keep his promises.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

You know he wants to bring your wife (and you)into right relationship with him, right?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, if God wants a relationship with me, then why don't I hear from Him?

I don't claim to know His ways, and that's the problem, how can I have a relationship with God if I can't understand Him.

I can't speak for God regarding WW.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

And you know he wants you to be reconciled, right?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't know this, because I've not seen it. That's what I'm asking God to tell me, what he wants to see happen here, and what is my job.

I am free of LB's around her, loving, nearly the definition of 1 Corinthians 13. So she stays away, or gets ugly if I try to pursue her.

So I just stay away from her.

I don't see any door opening, not even a crack.

So no, I don't know that God wants us to reconcile. I'll know that when He tells me that's what he wants, and shows me the way it will happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

So it follows that he is working to bring this about, right?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not until the premise above is proven. It's only a theory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

Is anything too hard for God?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, so this should already be done, right. If a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day, then God could do this at any time. Since I don't percieve time in the same way God does, it may be impossible for me to see what it is that He sees.

Perhaps it's too hard for God to speak plainly to me so that I can understand.

Maybe if He would heal me of my pain, I could understand what it is He's trying to teach me or tell me. My prayers asking for healing, for clear guidance for instruction, for that door to open appear to be for naught.

If God would just tell me He hears and the answer is in the works.

I don't get God. I know He doesn't OWE me anything, but we read about how He wants a relationship with mankind, so here I am, having given my life to God, asking Him to restore what is supposed to be the earthly representation of our relationship with Him on earth, a marriage, and He is silent.

I know He doesn't owe me anything, but sometimes I wonder how much He really wants a relationship with us.

Where is the Radical Honesty from God? I'm asking Him what He wants to do with my marriage, and He doesn't answer.

Oh, I can read in the Bible where He hates divorce. That really doesn't tell me what's happening in my situation.

That really doesn't tell me what I'm supposed to do.

I can read the story of Hosea, but what do I do?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

No.

You are a believer. Your wife is a believer.

From where I sit this is a done deal.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From where I sit, nothing is done, believers divorce everyday. People go off in sin, there is free will.

The only thing that is done is Christ has died for our sins. But that's not the end of sin.

I wish I had your faith, and I'm asking God to restore my faith, like the man with the ill son, help me in my unbelief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

The enemy is the one who is telling you that it won't happen. But he is a liar.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then let God tell me the truth. I believe it CAN happen, God has to be the one who will tell me it WILL happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

This is one of those times when you just do what God says, and start acting as though it is a done deal.

When you speak in faith, not in doubt.

No more talking about how hard or impossible it is. Instead, you start thanking God for what he is doing.

The catch is , are you willing to do what he says?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what is He saying, He's been pretty silent here.

But yeah, I'll sign my name to a sheet of paper that says Marriage Restoration Plan and leave it blank.

I'll look for God's plan on that paper.

Whatever God writes there, I'll do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

As for not seeing her, you don't even have to talk to her, or see her, actually. God can do this even if you don't see her. But when you are ready, we will pray that you get an opportunity to see her and show love to her. Not a problem. Easy for God.

This isn't about you winning or saving- its all about God, and what he is going to do and is doing.

He is the one who is going to do the winning and saving. That is his business. He knows your wife better than you do, and he knows what to do with her.

Your business is to let God work on you, and to love her when he opens that door. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm waiting, skeptical but waiting.

T

You remind me of a guy named Thomas who had to see the proof before he would believe it...

I am also reminded of the towns where Jesus couldn't do any miracles because of their unbelief.

Lord, please give Java what he needs to be able to believe that you are and that you hear and that you can and that you will.

Thank you!

Shul

Java,
Do you think that it is possible that God is answering you, and His answer is no. Or not yet.

Do you believe that God has a plan for each of us?
And if you do, do you think that there are numerous possibilities to why His answer could be no or not yet?

Maybe your WW is NOT the one He plans for you to have in your life.
(for whatever the Divine reason may be, perhaps her adultery)

Or perhaps she is praying to be rid of the <<controlling, abusive, whatever adjective/s she feels describes her loss of love for you>> husband. Then whose prayer does God answer.....yours, or hers.

Or possibly it is just not time yet.
Perhaps both you and she have not yet learned the lessons that God wants you to learn.
Maybe He is waiting for you to give her the TOTAL space she has asked for, from the beginning.

Please don't take offense at this Java.
Is it conceivable that you were controlling, and now your are not, but she can't or won't address the issue, or does not feel the need.
Perchance that is the reason she is being so "controlling" with her interactions with you regarding your DD.
She is in control of when you see/talk with your DD (minus court mandated visitations).
She is in control of the 20% child support.
She is in control of the car she drives regardless of what the resale value or gas mileage.
(on a side note, I think you are obsessed with cars, but that's just MY opinion.....and if you are, SO WHAT....that's nobodies business but yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )

Back on the first page you said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Somebody help me, I don't want to fail my YD or WW by giving up too soon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wish there was something I could do, I feel so helpless and hopeless </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My suggestion for what you can do.....
LET GO.
Better yet, Let go and let God.

Do a modified Plan B....call it Plan J.
Do not have any contact with her other than arrangements for pickup of DD.
I believe your DD is 6....she will soon be able (if not already) to call you herself without Mommy's help.
Go out and buy yourself the sports car of your dreams. Cause trust me, buddy, that would blow her mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Blow some of those bucks on an updated set or two of clothes (nothing wrong with Penneys, but not all the time, not every day..) Sometimes those geeky types tend to dress way too conservatively. I know. We have one in our home.

But most importantly never ever give up...
on God....on yourself.

edited to ask,
Have you read any of Bill Ferguson's articles about divorcing as friends?

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Nedley ]</small>

Tony,

I love you man, but you have the hardest head of anyone I know. And I hate to see you keep doing this to yourself. And I can understand why you might feel that way. But….

God’s word says he hates divorce period. You’ve read it, you know this.

You also know that God doesn’t ever go against freewill.

What you see, is your W not responding to anything God does in her life.

So if she chooses not to return to the M it’s your W’s choice not God’s. God’s will is clear.

God is going through the same anguish as you are over her. She has turned her back on Him as well. The same frustration you feel is what God feels when someone chooses to turn away from Him.

GOD KNOWS HOW YOU FEEL! AND HE WISHES YOUR W WOULD CHOOSE THE RIGHT THING TOO!

But she isn’t. So what do you do?


You take an inventory of yourself and find out what it is that you did to contribute to the situation and decide whether or not it’s important enough for you to make changes in yourself. Speaking as a BS myself, I learned that I had a lot of changing to do. I didn’t know if my M was going to survive. But I realized the whether it was restored or not, I needed to make those changes if I had any hope of having a good M later. …and whether it was with Mrs. S&C or with a new Mrs. S&C.


You say you deal with hard cold facts. Well here they are. Everything you read above is fact. Anything else is denial.

God loves you, God loves your W. He gave both of you His Son’s life for goodness sake Tony. Why would He deny you anything else if He’s already given you His most precious gift?

I thought long and hard before writing this to you Tony. Because I know you weren’t going to like what I said. I’m sorry. But I have a hard time just sitting here watching you go through this the way you are.

Bless you ((((((((Tony)))))))).

S&C

Lord,

Thankyou that you love Java and his wife, and for making them one, and for the awesome thing you are doing in their lives. Please help Java to believe you.

Well, I've read what you've all written.

I've made the changes, taken the inventories, sold the car because WW too thought I was obsessed with cars. So I think the sports car is not a great idea right now.

(Not to mention that I don't have the spare cash and since the debts were/are so high, credit is an issue for another year or so.)

I just grow weary of the roller coaster. I can make an effective argument that why do I want to be married to a woman who treats me this way, has no regard for finances, and has such poor self esteem that she depends on others for her happiness.

The other side of that hill is we have a daughter together and I owe her the best life possible, and a mother and father who love each other and love God is the best foundation for raising a child.

So I look at my blank piece of paper and wonder what God is going to do, when is He going to fill in the plan?

Thanks,

TB

So what do you expect God to do? Do you think God should beat her up and carry her back to the M and say; "Here Tony, I brought her back to you". "She's been brainwashed to love you, do what you say and never run away again."

By the same token, I can just see God saying to you; "Oh Tony, your W agreed to be brainwashed only if I did the same to you and so you would act exactly like she wanted you to".

It seems like that is what you want God to do. Make your W do what you want her to do.

So maybe instead of the question being, "What is God going to do", it should be, "What am I going to do"? Because God isn't going to beat your W into submission or brainwash her to do what you want.

Maybe you need to start writing your plan down on that blank piece of paper, based on the possible choices you may be faced with.

Blessing to you.

S&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> So what do you expect God to do? Do you think God should beat her up and carry her back to the M and say; "Here Tony, I brought her back to you". "She's been brainwashed to love you, do what you say and never run away again."

By the same token, I can just see God saying to you; "Oh Tony, your W agreed to be brainwashed only if I did the same to you and so you would act exactly like she wanted you to".

It seems like that is what you want God to do. Make your W do what you want her to do.

So maybe instead of the question being, "What is God going to do", it should be, "What am I going to do"? Because God isn't going to beat your W into submission or brainwash her to do what you want.

Maybe you need to start writing your plan down on that blank piece of paper, based on the possible choices you may be faced with.

Blessing to you.

S&C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not ask God for a plan?

It's obvious my efforts have failed.

My plan to:

Eliminate LB's, specifically AO, IB and DJs has not worked. While I have eliminated most of them, her position has not changed.

Meet her EN's. I've asked her specifically how I could better meet her needs, I've tried trial and error. My efforts to meet her needs for Admiration, Affection, Family Comittment and Financial Support have all failed.

Draw closer to God. Reading Scripture, Praying and Meditation have brought me no closer to God than I've felt when this first started.

So I'm asking God to provide a plan, I've been asking him what HE wants me to do.

So why do you suppose He isn't talking?

No I don't expect him to beat her up, I expect him to show me what to do, what can I do to be the husband she wanted and deserves. What can I do to be the spiritualy leader His scripture calls me to be. What can I do to be more appealing to her than her choice of pursuing a relationship with the OM. What can I do to demonstrate by my life, that a right relationship with God is what God really wants.

She says that God says it's ok for her to divorce. Ok, let God tell me that he's said that to her, or help me change to demonstrate that the is another message that God has for her.

I don't presume to know what God wants to do, or the best way to do it. That's why I don't feel qualified to fill out that plan.

I do trust that God IS qualified, so I will execute HIS plan.

Even if He writes on that piece of paper, wait and trust me, that's what I'll do. And if you know me, you know that that would be the toughest message for me to hear.

Oh, there is one tougher, if he said, the divorce is OK with him.

No, I don't presume to know what God would have me do. I do know that God knows what to do, and I don't know.

T

Java,
I think what S&C said is very important.
So if she chooses not to return to the M it’s your W’s choice not God’s. God’s will is clear.


You sound like you are mad at God for not answering you. I actually feel the same way sometimes, yet I think S&C's point is VITAL. God is NOT going to say it is ok to divorce. God is NOT telling your W that. I heard that bull from my WH Nov. 2003 and it took a LONG time for him to realize it was bull. He was in a fog. Your wife is too. What God does say- is he loves you. And he loves your wife. But your wife is NOT listening to him. She has to choose to, and there is NOTHING you can do to make her. You can pray for her, you can wait, you can hope, but if she doesn't choose to listen to God's will and God's prodding, she isn't going to change. God gave us free will- so you know His plan. His plan is for you to be married- I just read Proverbs 5 and 6 the other day- talking about God's plan to only be married to the wife of your youth- but God's plan is not always the plan that people choose. And if she doesn't choose you, you can't make her. Now, when to let go? I don't know. That is the tough part I am dealing with too- because my ex-WH now knows the damage he has done and is sorry for it - but he hasn't REPENTED. He has to, or nothing will come of us. And it stinks.
You sound like you think you should be able to 'fix it"- I am a fixer too- but you aren't God- you can't save her, and she has to choose to Let God save her. If she does- she will come back to you. If she doesnt', I think God will honor your faithfulness.
Take care Java.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> So what do you expect God to do? Do you think God should beat her up and carry her back to the M and say; "Here Tony, I brought her back to you". "She's been brainwashed to love you, do what you say and never run away again."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that what I asked? In case it's not clear, I'm asking God what I need to do, for Him to give me HIS plan for saving our marriage. If that's not HIS plan, then I'm asking HIM to give me HIS plan for my healing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

By the same token, I can just see God saying to you; "Oh Tony, your W agreed to be brainwashed only if I did the same to you and so you would act exactly like she wanted you to".

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above, btw, this sarcasm doesn't help much, but I'll ask again where you get this out of what I'm asking of God.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

It seems like that is what you want God to do. Make your W do what you want her to do.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I've written a thing about asking God to do anything other than let me know what he wants me to do.

We agree that divorce is not God's will, so I'm asking what must I do to be in His will. So again, I ask where I wrote that I want God to reprogram her life.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

So maybe instead of the question being, "What is God going to do", it should be, "What am I going to do"? Because God isn't going to beat your W into submission or brainwash her to do what you want.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So are you saying I can make any plan? I don't think so, again, I ask, what is wrong with asking God for His plan, for His will, and for His instruction in my life?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

Maybe you need to start writing your plan down on that blank piece of paper, based on the possible choices you may be faced with.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't trust my ability to plan, given my history of failure.

It's not my place to presume to know what God has planned for my life.

I'm open to His plan, isn't that where I'm supposed to be, willing to do what God calls me to do.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong>

Blessing to you.

S&C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have my e-mail, I think I have yours, so feel free to e-mail me. I am dead serious that I'm ready to do what God wants me to do, and have no idea where He wants to lead.

I'm sorry you find my ignorance so offensive. If you can promise not to be offended by my ignorance of what God has planned for me, then I can offer not to take offense at what appears to be sarcasm on your part.

Seeking God's Will,

T

Tony,

I've been reading this thread w/interest & yet haven't found the words to give you what you're looking for. It sounds like when you ask God to speak to you, you expect a supernatural sign of some sort. I got something in my e-mail today from Mountainwings & I'd thought I'd share it w/you b/c you're the first person I thought of when I read it.

Here goes:

========
Many of the requests to us seek guidance in some area of life.

The following are generalized principles that are applicable for many areas in your life. If you need guidance in an area of life, perhaps you should READ and FOLLOW this now.

Most often, God sends divine guidance and wisdom through anointed people and not supernatural signs.

You need wise counsel.
Wisdom is usually gained by successful experience.

Everyone has experience but only a few have successful experience.

Many live in a continual cycle of action then regret but wisdom either successfully breaks bad cycles or never gets in bad cycles.

It is usually far less painful to benefit from the experience of others than having to go through it ourselves. When you successfully go through something, you usually have wisdom.

Follow these guidelines:

1. Spend ONE HOUR in a quiet place undisturbed. If the decision involves just you, spend it alone. If it involves others, ask them to join you. Take one sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle then draw another line down each half. Your paper should have four columns.

Most guidance involves a choice between two alternatives.
To marry or not? To move or not? To take the new job or not? To leave or stay? To buy it or not? To try it or not?

At the top of the first column on the left put a (-) minus sign. Put a (+) plus sign in the next column, then another minus and plus sign in the last two columns.

At the top of the first two columns write alternative one. Example, "Marry." At the top of the third and fourth columns write alternative two. Example, "Not Marry."

During the hour, write ALL of the plusses and the minuses of each alternative that you and whoever is with you can think of in the proper column. Write the good (+) and the bad (-).

The last thing to write on each one is the extreme.
Write the worst that can happen.
Write the best that can happen.

Make a copy of your results.

Study your results. It's possible that after you look at your honest answers, the right decision is clear to you.

If not, or if you are not totally sure, then go to step two.
As a matter of fact, it's a good idea to go to step two anyway.


2. Find someone who has his or her life in the condition that you want your life. If you are having relationship problems, find someone who has been in a happy marriage for a long time with successful children. Don't ask someone going through major problems themselves. The advice they will give has a high probability or sooner or later getting you in the same shape they are in.

Remember that important point.

It's not that those in trouble and a mess themselves can't give you good advice. It's just that the advice they give you has a higher probability of getting you in the same shape they are in so choose wisely where you get your advice.

If you are having financial problems, find someone with their finances in order. If you are having health problems, find someone whose body is in the shape that you want yours in.

3. Sincerely ask them for their advice.
Most often, you will find that people will freely share with you as long as they sense that you are sincere. Most successful people will not want to waste their time with someone they feel isn't serious and has no intention of really changing.

3. Do what they say.
Understand that if things aren't going right in your life and hasn't been for a long time, that usually means you have to make changes and what you have been doing isn't working.

If it were something that you WANTED to do you would have already done it. Usually the changes we need go against our habits and thought patterns but that's why we need outside advice and help.

God sends us guidance but in the vast majority of cases,
it is through a wise person.

Also, make sure that you are under solid spiritual leadership.

Go to **edit** and click Advice Answers then read "Is Anyone Out There?" if you don't have a solid spiritual leader.

I wanted to point out a few things -- The first sentence really struck me.
Most often, God sends divine guidance and wisdom through anointed people and not supernatural signs

Are you looking for that supernatural sign to positively show you what He wants you to do? I think you are. You have several people on here telling you to just keep your eyes focused on God right now. It seems as if you have your eyes on God for a while, can't find Him yet & then divert your eyes back over the what your ultimate prize is -- your W. You have to remember, Tony, that your W is not the ultimate prize. Your M being reconciled is a wonderful thing if you can achieve it, however, the ultimate prize is a R w/God. You haven't found that yet. I know you know this already, but it seems as if your attention keeps re-focusing back to Did I change enough for her to come back? instead of Did I do what I could do today to praise God & show His love to others?

You were in a Bible study at one time if I remember correctly. Are you still doing that? If not, we can start one here for you, for all of us. This did get started before but then kind of dwindled out. I think that would be good to get it started again. If you're having trouble hearing God's inner voice, then we need to do something so you can hear it loud & clear. Why don't we go over the Love chapter Cor 13 & see if you have changed to show God's love?

Love is patient -- Are you patient? I think this area still needs some work.
Love is kind -- Are you kind to everyone you meet or do you need work in this area as well?
Love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude -- Do you get jealous of others' success in whatever area, do you brag (be honest), are you rude, or think you're a little bit better than Joe Schmoe? I'm not saying you are these things, I'm just asking questions to get you to dig deeper about yoursel.
Love does not insist on its own way -- This might need work too. Seriously think about this.
Love is not irritable or resentful -- Do you get irritated w/God or resent God b/c He hasn't given you what you want yet?
Doesn't rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in truth -- I'm sure this area you have mastered! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things -- Do you believe, in your soul, that God will do what He has promised to do? Do you still have hope or have you lost it? Do you need to work on being able to endure the pain & suffering that comes along w/sorrow, knowing that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how long that might take.
Love never ends --Do you believe that God's love is neverending? Is your love neverending for God?

I don't know what possessed to write that scripture for you, but I felt compelled to do it. This Wed is Ash Wed. Are you going to go to church? I think it would do you some good. Taking the communion, confessing your sin to God, having quiet time w/Him to try to get a little bit closer to Him. Listening to the hymns, praising Him despite of the circumstances around you. God's will for people's lives usually has nothing to do w/M at all. I've discovered that. What He wants from everyone, including you, Tony is for you to feel close to Him. If you're not feeling that, that's what you need to work on. Let's see if we can brainstorm to figure out a way you can do that, something that will get you in tune w/God so you can smile more often than you cry. That's when you will know that God is working all around you. It just might not have anything to do w/your W at all. Your W might just be an added bonus at the end of your journey.

Thinking of you,
Y

If you need to e-mail me, my address is **edit**. Drop me a line anytime you need someone to talk to.

Love in Christ. God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
So what do you expect God to do? Do you think God should beat her up and carry her back to the M and say; "Here Tony, I brought her back to you". "She's been brainwashed to love you, do what you say and never run away again."

Is that what I asked? In case it's not clear, I'm asking God what I need to do, for Him to give me HIS plan for saving our marriage. If that's not HIS plan, then I'm asking HIM to give me HIS plan for my healing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His plan is to provide situations for you and your W where you choose Him. If both of ou choose Him then IMHO, a good M is a by product of an intimate relationship with God. If one of you choose Him and the other rejects Him then it gets harder. So again the question becomes, do you continue to have an intimate relationship with God if your W rejects God and the M. If you become bitter that "God isn't working to save your M, when it's your W that made the choice. If she doesn't make that choice, then the only way your M is going to be saved is for God to force her to change her mind; and God won't do that.

The plan to be healed will take place after you accept the possibility that your W may not come back. But if you keep asking God to bring her back and you know she doesn't want to, then you are hanging on to the hurt that God wants to remove. And He won't take something you aren't ready to surrender.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
Originally posted by steadfast and committed:


By the same token, I can just see God saying to you; "Oh Tony, your W agreed to be brainwashed only if I did the same to you and so you would act exactly like she wanted you to".

See above, btw, this sarcasm doesn't help much, but I'll ask again where you get this out of what I'm asking of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I apologize for the sarcasm. But I don't believe I am the only one that is under the impression that you continue to ask God to save your M knowing your W isn't ready to do that. And like I said if she isn't, then the only way it will be saved is if God chooses for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
Originally posted by steadfast and committed:


It seems like that is what you want God to do. Make your W do what you want her to do.

I don't think I've written a thing about asking God to do anything other than let me know what he wants me to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...to save your M. You continue to ask God to "save your M" or give you His plan to "save your M". You are asking God to go against free will. Which He will never do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
Originally posted by steadfast and committed:


So maybe instead of the question being, "What is God going to do", it should be, "What am I going to do"? Because God isn't going to beat your W into submission or brainwash her to do what you want.

Well, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So are you saying I can make any plan? I don't think so, again, I ask, what is wrong with asking God for His plan, for His will, and for His instruction in my life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing. The problem is when you ask and ignore His answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
Originally posted by steadfast and committed:


Maybe you need to start writing your plan down on that blank piece of paper, based on the possible choices you may be faced with.

I don't trust my ability to plan, given my history of failure.

It's not my place to presume to know what God has planned for my life.

I'm open to His plan, isn't that where I'm supposed to be, willing to do what God calls me to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if He is telling you that your W will never return to the M. Then His plan is for you to make a life without her. Maybe even with someone else. Are you willing to follow that plan?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have my e-mail, I think I have yours, so feel free to e-mail me. I am dead serious that I'm ready to do what God wants me to do, and have no idea where He wants to lead.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do have your e-mail and mine isn't hard to get. If you don't have it, it's in the post my link points to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry you find my ignorance so offensive. If you can promise not to be offended by my ignorance of what God has planned for me, then I can offer not to take offense at what appears to be sarcasm on your part.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not offended. It is frustrating to see you seemingly blame God for clear choices your W has made. And I believe this is directly affecting your relationship with God. Thus your recovering and/or healing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seeking God's Will, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if it doesn't come directly from God's mouth?

Blessing to you.

S&C

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: steadfast and committed ]</small>

Ok, I do I know that any one person is telling me what God wills for my life, our marriage, etc?

Some are telling me that it's over, I need to let go. Others tell me it's a done deal, God will restore the marriage.

Both seem to claim to be speaking God's will for my life.

So what's wrong with asking God for His input? Seems the messages I'm getting from the people are contradictory and confusing at best.

T

It is confusing listening to different people's opinions. Most people would think I was off my rocker for even thinking about my ex at all. You should read my thread in emotional needs when I got slammed for what was perceived as me getting in the way of ex and OW since they live together and have a child together.
The point is, you can't listen to people's opinions ultimately when you are dealing with matters of this magnitude. You ultimately need to listen to God and I think that S&C is trying to tell you that. God may be silent right now, but as you spend time with HIm, read His Word, worship Him, and stop blaming Him for your wife's faults, He will speak to you and to your heart. You will get peace. I think letting go can simply mean stop controlling. You remind me of myself- I need answers now- I don't understand now- I don't want to just wait now- But sometimes we have to. This time needs to be about you, not W, maybe not even about marriage. Just step back and look at your own life for a while, and see what happens.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Well, then I'm better off without her. Read all the warnings about the adultress in Proverbs.

Or should I read Hosea and take her back? (Given the chance of course.)

Even scripture seems to be contradictory.

I know, I should forgive her.

I do each day, but then she stays away for another day, so I have to forgive her again.

Do you know how that wears upon someone?

Especially when I've confessed what I believe my sins were in the marriage, and have even asked her to share any more she percieves that I may have missed.

Well, I've not felt forgiven, by her, nor have I been given anything other than she feels we forced God's will by getting married.

So, I'd just like God to clear it up for me a bit. Prayer and meditation since 9/6/2003 hasn't brought any clarity.

I've been listening, I don't know how to listen any better than I am already.

So I'm asking God to be a little more clear, so I would understand Him.

T

LOL again you sound like me because I have questioned scripture myself. I think Hosea was an exception used by God to show an example of God's faithfulness. But then I wonder if I am supposed to be a modern day Hosea- or if you are !? I dont' know. I also wonder about forgiveness because we forgive to ease our own pain- yet the scriptures I read talk about forgiving when the person asks for it, or repents. If you do a search on forgiveness without repentance some interesting things come up. Such as how can you forgive when the person is still in the same sin?> I mean, you want to forgive to let it go, but what is there to forgive if they keep doing it? If they say I am sorry, but continue in it without even trying to stop? I don't know. Food for thought. Proverbs is very clear on how foolish adultery is. And God says to flee from sexual immorality- an affair is immoral so should we flee from our spouses? Bad company corrupts good character...oh I could go on and on. Just like Jesus tells the adulterer- go and sin NO MORE. Not ok, I forgive you, now continue on. That's why I think Hosea was a lesson about bigger things. Look at David, he was a man after God's own heart- but he REPENTED of his adultery. I think repentance is vital. I understand you are worn out. I have been divorced almost 2 years and I am still praying about it. I am not sure if I picked up an old wound or if I am looking to completely heal. I just have to have faith that God will answer me in His time- just as he will you. In the meantime, try to concentrate on doing some things for you, praying for you, thinking of you and what you want/need.

Tony,

In it's simplest form, I'm trying to tell you that you need to be able to be whole without her. I am NOT saying you should be without her. I am NOT saying you should dump her. What I am saying is, it's possible your W won't come back. If she doesn't, you still need to trust God and make a life for you and your D. You've never (to my knowledge) even considered that possiblity. And therefor have never started planning for a life without her.

Right now your W has you emotionally wrapped around her finger. She does something and you react. You need to break loose of that. When you do break loose, that's when you have truely turned this over to God. It wasn't until I was ready to write my plan b letter that the fog lifted from my W.

You have given your W authority over your life instead of God. When you put God ahead of your W, I think you will start to hear from God. But right now, anything that doesn't produce the outcome you want couldn't be from God. This is just MVHO.

You're the one hanging on to the hurt. God wants to take it away but you have to release it to Him.

Blessing to you.

S&C

Hugs {Tony}!

I'm feel so...I don't know the word to describe how I feel about you not feeling God's presence. It saddens me. I can see God speaking to you through everyone here & it saddens me that you can't see that. I think everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing -- you need to concentrate on YOU & getting YOUR R w/God in order FIRST.

As far as believing if God will restore your M, I had doubts about it too when I was separated but I kept seeing little things, hearing little things that ordinarily I wouldn't have given it a thought. When I was at my worst sometimes, unbelievably shaken & broken, looking around at my circumstances & thinking, But God promised! That's when I would hear that song, Angel, that my H always sang to me or when he got his new phone & seemed as if he was moving on w/o me & I discovered that the last 4 digits of his phone # were both our ages put together. Little things like that are how I believe God speaks to us. There was also this nagging feeling that I had to be PATIENT & WAIT. I know it's a cliche, but that ole saying, Good things come to those who wait is so true. We have many examples on this forum who did just that & received the promises that God had given them. The promise of restoration. Either they were restored themselves & no longer thought about the pain or their M was completely restored. S&C, singleguy, FaithfulCJ, Lupolady, Gentle, I can go on.

I really do believe that if you put your whole efforts into seeking God just for the sake of being his & his alone, you will see yourself not thinking so much about your W's choices & be able to be really happy, despite the fact that your W is still astray. If you cannot hear His voice speaking to you, Tony, then this is the answer. You must try whatever means possible to get that R w/God in order. It seems as if you are making changes w/in yourself & then looking around you going, Did my W notice yet? Well God noticed. He also notices if you're doing it to get your W back, or if you're doing it b/c it needs to be done. I don't know the reason your W's heart hasn't been turned yet. Maybe God has hardened her heart right now & wants to bring about a miracle as in the case w/the Pharoah & Moses. I don't know. But I do know that He is longing for you to feel Him around you & I really pray that you can find something to connect yourself w/God so you can feel His presence.

Please remember to not look around you at your circumstances, b/c most definitely you will fall & be hopeless. This is exactly what satan wants from you & it seems as if he's getting his wish.

Praying for you always,
Y