I thought this might be a topic of discussion for all of us. We are all in similar situations and yet unique in that we are individuals from different religious backgrounds etc.<P>I think there is alot of confusion out there in regards to the admonition for "wives to submit to their husbands". So I thought this might be a way of sharing what God as shown us in our personal walk with Him.<P>I'll start: I believe submission to my H is done not only in obedience to God but out of love for him. Submission comes when a decision needs to be made and after much discussion an agreement cannot be arrived at. So, God has put my H as head of the home and because of his headship I choose to relinquish my will for his.<P>I do not believe submission is being a doormat. I do not believe submission is allowing a man to rule with an iron rod over a woman. It does not allow him to be emotionally or physically abusive. God says, "husbands love your wives as God loves the church(body of Christ, believers).<P>I am anxious to hear how others see submission and I think we can all learn from each other.<P>Blessings, Taj<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

The Amplified Bible is particularly wonderful for 1 Peter 3:1-7, the submission passage.<P>"feel for him reverence including to respect, defer to, revere, to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, in the human sense to adore him, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love & enjoy"<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited January 26, 2000).]

Hi Taj, interesting subject!<P>I agree with your description. In my own experience, I have come to realize that submission to my husband is a very active DECISION. I choose every day and in every situation to continue to believe that God is sovereign over my husband, and that I am called to trust God's goodness and His plan for me.<P>For those who have suffered at the hands of a betraying husband, this flies in the face of reason. I agree with you that we are never commanded to put up with abuse, nor are we to submit to demands that are in opposition to God's word. <P>I think that as we voluntarily CHOOSE to be in submission to our husbands, we sometimes find ourselves in conflict, for example, what if your husband doesn't want you to go to a weeknight Bible study? Do you miss out on the opportunity for fellowship because he doesn't want you to go? What if he insists that you skip church to spend Sundays with him? I don't think the answers to this are clearcut or even that one answer applies to all situations. <P>Some of these conflicts are the result of our disobeying God and marrying a non-believer. However, several of us married men who professed faith and we now find ourselves living with someone very different than that Christian young man we fell in love with. <P>For myself, I have been brought to tears many times by my husband's cynical "God doesn't listen, stop reading your Bible, can't you see that if He exists, He doesn't care?" <P>Obviously, I cannot cut myself off from scripture and prayer to please my h. In fact, he has also said that he thinks "If God is blessing us, it's because of your faith, not mine". <P>So what do we do? Should we submit to these apostate husbands? I have found myself reading and re-reading the 1 Peter 3:1-6.<P>"Wives, in the same way, be submissive to your husbands, so that, IF ANY OF THEM DO NOT BELIEVE, THEY MAY BE WON OVER without words BY THE BEHAVIOR OF THEIR WIVES,<BR>when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. <P>Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. <P>For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."<P>I have found couple of interesting points in this scripture. <P>1) the example that is given of Sarah and Abraham--think about it, Abraham made some really dumb mistakes, including twice telling Sarah to lie and say that she was his sister (actually, she was a half-sister, but that isn't the point). God calls us to submit to fallen, sinful, selfish men, and promises to honor our submission and take care of us.<P>2) We are to submit and we will win over our husbands WITHOUT A WORD. Sounds alot like Shut up and pray, huh? I do, however, think it is important to voice our needs and desires, such as "Yes, I will skip church today and go fishing with you, but I want you to know that I feel that regular church attendance is important. But since this is important to you, I will do it."<P>3) The source of our beauty: our inner self. Think of all that you have been through as far as inner growth and what God has taught you. This strength and the beauty of a caring and pure heart has lasting value. <P>Sometimes it takes a long time for our husbands to see that the OW has a black soul, but I believe that God will honor our commitment to Him by restoring our joy, either with our husbands, or by freeing us from our ties to unrepentant husbands (remember that divorce is an option "because of the hardness of your hearts", I think this refers to a spouse who never wants to come back).<P>4) What I DON'T think this passage means is:<P>a) be a doormat or a martyr, <P>b)never speak up for what you need, <P>c) put up with mistreatment, <P>d)don't make yourself look good (God made our husbands, so He obviously intended for them to like attractive women!)<P>Anyway, thanks for starting this topic. It is a good subject to discuss, even though is is off the central theme of the book.<P>lizzie<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<P><BR>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited January 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited January 26, 2000).]

Liz,<P>Central theme of the book, No, but heart of the book, Yes! I don't believe Stormie could write such powerful prayers if she wasn't living God's design for a woman.<P>I appreciated so much your post. I agree with everything you said and enjoyed reading your thoughts.<P>What about the woman who has a Christian husband and is praying for him and yet he treats her like a piece of dirt? Certainly infidelity is poor treatment, but lets say this person is a "pillar of the church"! Then what?<P>I really feeling like stirring the pot today! <P>Blessings, Taj<BR>

I am constantly having that verse about Sarah and Abraham thrown in my face. When he told her to lie, he placed her in a position to be raped to cover his fanny. The only thing I cna think of is that the prosepcts of being raped once verse him being killed and then perhaps living a life of rape or worse, must have been the lesser of two evils.<P>This is a very emotional topic for me.

SueB,<P>Yes, this is an emotional topic and I know you are not the only one who struggles with some of the current teaching. Abraham certainly was off course many times in his decisions. God did not honor his actions concerning Sarah in the verses referred to in POGP's post. He did honor Sarah.<P>I don't believe that things are cut and dried. Also, I believe we have the fullness of revelation now that the scriptures are complete and the process was still ongoing when Abraham lied about Sarah. Today as women we need to look at the whole of scripture and what God teaches in regards to submission.<P><P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

This is a very confusing subject for me. I'm going to have to think about this one for a while before I can really participate in this discussion. I guess I would be in the "doormat" category. Will post on this subject later when I can take a while to think about it.

AW,<P>The definition of a doormat is pretty narrow. I do not for a minute think that submitting to your H in love led by God fits into that category. Each of us must do as God leads and only you know what that entails. <P>If a woman prayerfully seeks God's will and feels led to submit her will in the hope that God can use the submission to show His love......then so be it! That is godly submission.<P>You can teach us all much in this area.<P>I believe submission should never endanger us or cause us to sin. Beyond that it is a personal step of faith to the extent a woman relinquishes her will.<P><P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

Ladies,<BR>I agree with each of your comments, for me submission means that my H is the head of the household and I its heart. I dont believe that God intended for us to be walked on but be like Sarah was to Abraham.

tomorrow is the dna test, i am wound up tighter than, i don't know what.i am failing to cast all my anxieties on Him. i will keep trying. i have led lots of Bible studies on submission, and i think it is a wonderful topic. but at the moment, this is what i think of it: <P>i'll come back another time and talk about it. sorry for the lousy attitude, but what joy to know that you all understand.

There is a woman on this forum who is the epitome of a godly woman and has been such an example to me. I praise God for her and ask Him to strengthen her with His power to do His will and clearly know it. I have learned much about submission through her example in the last few days.<P>You know who you are. Thank You!<P>Blessings, Taj<P>Blessings, Taj<P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

Ok, I've done my thinking. Here's my .02 worth:<P>I feel that for me, being a submissive wife is the only way I can be a wife. As long as what I do for my husband doesn't make me feel like I am going against God's will, I'll do it. I have been led by the Lord to believe that I have been put in my husband's life for a reason -- and that reason is to show him what true Christian love is. He's never had that kind of love in his life, before me. He knows I love him, no matter what he's done in the past. Yes, I don't like some of the things he does, but have learned that God wants me to "SHUT UP AND PRAY", and not tell my husband what he's done wrong or is doing wrong. <P>My husband has done just about everything bad a husband can do to his wife. He has committed adultery, has physically and mentally abused me, drinks himself into oblivion and has basically neglected my every need. I have forgiven him for all he's done to me. For Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven. Yet, I KNOW without a doubt that God intends for us to be married, and God has a specific reason why He had my husband chose me for his wife. I stand on the verse "Wives, in the same way, be submissive to your husbands, so that, if any of them do not believe, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives." (thanks POGP). <P>Its taken me a long time to get over my selfish pride enough to submit to a man that is not a Christian. So far, he hasn't asked me to do anything illegal or anything like that. I don't think God will let him. I won't lie for him either. But I will do whatever he asks, and try to do so in a loving manner. I ask God everyday to help me be a Christian example for my husband, and to use me as a tool towards his salvation. And yes, I choose to be submissive to my husband, because I believe in God's word. <P>So, to sum it up, my feeling on this subject is what Taj said, "submit to your H in love led by God". <P><BR>

Hi Ladies,<BR>I'm submitting in every way to my husband, and at this time am not getting my most important(to me)needs met.No affection, hugs or kisses, no cuddling, no words of love. My H does not want to be married to me any more. Right now it is all for him. (Midlife crisis)<BR>I am doing the sames things I've always done for him, but now it doesn't matter to him anymore.He doesn't feel loved by me. He's getting counseling and has been getting in touch with his feelings.He just doesn't see that feelings shift and change so often, and you can't really go by them.<BR>I'll grieviously admit that I was a feminist for quite a few years before I was born again, wasn't as submissive as I needed to be, but that all changed after I began studying the Word and went to a bible study on submission.<BR>I don't have any wisdom to offer at this time because, although I believe that my husband is the head and I am the neck(I support him)I don't think it much matters now, because I needed to be more supportive and less selfish before - now he wants out. I like that about us being the heart of the home. I guess my heart really had hardened and I just plain gave up.(Infertility, moving 15 times in 12 years, building three houses together from scratch and then him needing to move again........ I don't mean to sound so negative.With all my heart I would want to "win over" my husband, God knows,in a heartbeat,if I could take those "feminist"years back, I would.<BR>Please pray for me.<BR>H did some work today for that "customer" that admitted to being attracted to him. She does not believe in marriage, and is very liberal.My feelings don't matter to her, she needs something from my H and she is "heck" bent on getting it.<BR>So grateful for everyone.I know my problems seem so minor compared to others- there I go again- the spirit of comparing- must stop that too.<BR>Love and prayers IJN,<BR>Jn<BR>

Thanks Everyone for your comments on this difficult and sometimes controversial subject. <P>There were some great and insightful comments. We all are in such difficult circumstances and yet the one resounding desire of everyone is to be pleasing and obedient to God.<P>I'd say that is godly submission.<P>Lord, enable each woman on this forum to fulfill Your command to be submissive wives. Show us the "how" in our particular circumstance. Where there is confusion as to what Your word says about this issue give us clarity. Where there might be any abuse of this command from our husbands give them Your eyes and heart to see that true submission is done out of love. Bless each woman on this forum. IJN<P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

Thanks Taj. Are you leaving today for your trip? If so, I hope you have a wonderful time. We'll all be praying for you, and will miss you while you're gone! <P>Love to you,<P>AW

Bye!<P>See ya all (thats my Texas drawl) in 10 days!<P> cool cool:<P>Blessings, Taj<BR>

While I was on our trip I was spending some time in the Word and came across this verse. I was so excited and wanted to share it with everyone on the forum. So, in conclusion to my question here goes:<P>"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure, then peace-loving, considerate, SUBMISSIVE, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, sincere." James 3:17<P>So Ladies, I decided if God calls submission wisdom then it pretty much affirms our place as praying wives to be wise!<P>Blessings, Taj<P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18

Amen! GREAT verse! <P>And it comes from heaven too. <P>

Sarah also chewed Abraham out about the foreskins and ordered him and the men to be circumcised.<P>Submission is very simple. It's a quality that will cause your husband to develop a profound respect and treasure of you that will make him think twice about cheating on you when you are much older or much less attractive than the women trying to seduce him.<BR>

Hmmmmmmm, I guess I'll have to think about that. I have always seen submission as an act of obedience not something we do to get a particular response. I feel I have always had an attitude of submission and yet infidelity still occured in my marriage. My H's sin I don't feel had a thing to do with my attitude of submission. Not sure I can agree with your last statement Cuckold, but then you are entitled to it.<P>Sure Sarah did "chew out" Abraham but in general she did her own thing. I am not sure Sarah is a good example of New Testament submission. What do others think?<P>Blessings, Taj<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18