dMac -- I don't think we've communicated much, if at all, but I think about you and Suse often and revel in your success story. When I first got to the board, I saw lots of posts by Suse and few by you. Then it turned around and I saw you more and Suse less.<P>Do you guys work in shifts or are you actually the same person? LOL...I for one am glad you both come around from time to time and freely give your inspiring message. You should take this show on the road!!! It would help uncountable couples in the throes of turmoil.<P>Anyway, glad you guys are here....

Hiya!<P>I just got the biggest laugh out of your post. Thank you.<P>Yes, I must now confess. We're actually "Suse", "Dmac", "D99", "Marcil", oh, and almost forgot...I now admit it...I'm the Harleys too. All of us. <P>All kidding aside, thank you. You did get me to laugh. And yes, I have read your posts. You really do have a good memory. Yep, Suse was here first. I followed verrrry tentatively a few weeks later. After all, I was the more-recent betrayer. Had that ol' pond scum feeling Suse writes about.<P>Hmmmm...was that inspiring? Maybe we're outstanding examples of how much two otherwise intelligent and caring people can screw up a marriage? Yep, I gotta believe hearing our story might possibly help some folks be smarter. <P>Anyhoo, thanks for your post. You made my day.

dMac -- Well, at least I've made someone laugh today. Must mean it's a good day. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe we're outstanding examples of how much two otherwise intelligent and caring people can screw up a marriage? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, this wasn't the inspiring part...it just demonstrated that both of you are human. What is uplifting is that you both managed to get above and beyond this to continue the lifelong task of perfecting your marriage.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We're actually "Suse", "Dmac", "D99"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>On the last one, is that really an alter ego of you or your evil twin? I realize that talking to one's self can be beneficial, but, really, this may be taking it a little too far.

Hey there Heartpain,<P>Sorry I missed your post back. Have been out of town most of the week and haven't been online more than a min or two at a time.<P>Anyways, thanks for the note. As for the "human" part, I can assure ya, we're both VERY. You should have seen us in the bad old days. <P>But you're right. I can't help but feel good that Suse and I made it. Both of us had times when we each thought we wouldn't. And, sometimes, I'm hesitant to mention on the Forum how lonnnnnnnng it took us to get where we are. We had some pretty discouraging times over the years. Hey, my affair was all about being discouraged that we'd never get to where we are today. Silly me, eh?<P>Oh and as for the evil twin thing? Actually, we're triplets. And, I've grown very comfy with both my evil sister and brother. I keep them reeeel close so I can make sure they don't get out much.<P>Take care and give a post back soon.

Hey there dMac, nice to hear from you. So ya been busy, huh?? I was supposed to be in Virginia all last week, but we both came down with the influenza bug.<P>Not much new to post today..If you have a lot of spare time, you can catch up on my by reading these:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010081.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010081.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010201.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010201.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010288.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010288.html</A> <P>and finally, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010367.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010367.html</A> <P>Not a lot of fun here....

real quick...just to bring this to the top...I'll read the back issues tonite then post you a note. Have a good one.<P>DMac

dMac -- Just thought I'd add the latest. Done last night while I was fuming about the latest episode in the "Days of my Crap Life". But I am getting better. Have decided that I have to get myself together and move on.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010421.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010421.html</A>

Hi HP,<P>Just did a lot of reading. I'm full of questions I want to ask you. Maybe some of them will help with perspective on what's happening for you. Here goes...<P>What is it that you really want to accomplish now? And...what are you willing to risk to do it? <P>How strong is your self-confidence? And, if it's sagging...why the HAYALL is it? Geez, from all I've read, your W's got it pretty dang good! There's a lotta women in the world who would enjoy your company and devotion!<P>What is it that your wife seems to want? What is it she says you're not doing for her? Why'd you guys get married in the first place? Did you have the starry-eyed lovers thang?<P>Is your wife basically a good woman? Is she just temporarily deranged? If so, do you know what started this?<P>Any chance she's depressed and not being treated for it?<P>You two ever done the MBTI surveys?<P>Well, that's it for now. I'm sure I'll even think of more but enough for now.<P>I read in one of your posts that you rely on your good instincts in a lot of situations. Well, so do I. My antennae say it ain't time to give up on her yet. You can stand it longer, I figure. What do you?<P>As a closing thought...please read Suse's last long post to Arik about our history. I'll bet you'll find some interesting things there. I believe it's the best post she's ever written here. And, one which most should read.<P>Sleep well and I'll read tomorrow am.<P>DMac<P>

dMac -- Thanks for the reading and I will try to answer any and all questions you have.<P><B>What I want to accomplish</B>: I need to extricate myself from this dysfunctional existence. I have a lot to offer and want to offer someone who wants to share my life. I really love the sharing of life's experiences. I have an innate need for honesty and sharing. I personally believe that you can have a good relationship or even marriage with total honesty and sharing even when the love may be lacking. On the other hand, love without honesty and sharing results in a worthless relationship.<P><B>What I am willing to risk</B>: I'm <B>not</B> willing to risk my sanity which is where I feel I'm at now. I am willing to risk nearly anything else, but I am tired of the pain.<P><B>How strong is my self-confidence?</B>: Pretty strong. Deep down I have a very strong sense of self-worth. At times, there is a surface veneer of being unworthy, but it only appears during times of self-pity. It is damaging to one's self-esteem to put yourself out completely for someone else and to have that not appreciated.<P><B>What does my wife want?</B> I really don't know. She had a bad childhood being shuttled back and forth between her divorced parents. She needed attention and love, but her rebellious behavior in response to this need was seen by everyone as being a "troublemaker". I knew this before we married and in response, I made her the number one thing in my life. Communication lack is(in my mind) the very worst problem we had. She is a conflict-avoider by nature and rather than bring problems out into the open early, her tendency was to close in and try to work things out for herself. What she says she gets from OM is "unconditional acceptance". W's therapist says OM is "altruistic" and condemns me as an abuser and controller. Interesting observations considering at the point she drew these conclusions, she had talked to neither of us. She still hasn't talked to OM, at least as far as I know. I do know she likes him a lot.<P>We got married because we connected on various levels and became best friends. We went thru a "starry-eyed" phase, but we were past it by the time we married and were just best friends who were deeply in love. We had important common interests and ideas and the divergent interests seemed to complement each other with both of us wanting to learn new things from the other.<P><B>Is wife basically a good woman?</B>: For the most part she is. She does drastic flips in moral values over long periods of time. She can be the most upright, moral person you know and at times, she moves to the other end of the scale. She has cheated in the three major relationships in her life rather than try to work things out. In the seven year relationship prior to me, she cheated, with two of her first cousins. One of these was an complete affair, emotional and physical with dreams and ideas of love. Maybe I shouldn't have divulged this last piece of information, because as far as W and I know, she, the two cousins and I are the only ones in the world that know about this. There isn't even any surety that the two cousins know about each other.<P><B>Is she temporarily deranged? What started this?</B> I really don't know. Many of her actions speak to a mid-life crisis. This affair started as a friendship at work and progressed over two years. She told me a while back that she was able to compartmentalize her life in such a way that she was able to keep OM and me completely separate and this enabled her <B>not</B> to have any feelings of confusion or crisis. We have had problems in the marriage primarily due to an inability on both our parts to communicate effectively which includes being properly versed in the way to have effective rather than destructive arguments.<P><B>Any chance she's depressed?</B> In the first part of the year, she finally went to the doctor because of some pretty bad dizzy spells she had had. The doctor responded with a nasal spray to clear her sinuses and put her on 20mg dosage of Celexa. She told me that this was also for the dizziness. All I know is that within a few weeks, I saw a dramatic difference in her. She seemed much more happy and all of a sudden, she was willing to go out and do things with me. She had been brushing off leaving the house and doing things for the last 2-3 years. Unfortunately, this was about a month before her affair became physical and she disclosed it to me. I have tried to address the fact that she may indeed be clinically depressed because of the impact I saw from the Celexa, but I have been brushed off completely by W and her therapist. My therapist on the other hand, says that W exhibits many, many signs of clinical depression. I've often felt that she might benefit from an increased dosage level of the anti-dep, but this is a forbidden topic with W.<P><B>Have we ever done the MBTI surveys?</B>: In a word, no. W doesn't believe in those kind of exercises unless they are going to reinforce what she wants to hear. She is now getting a little into astrology(something she completely disdained in the past), because she found and astrological compatibility web site that indicated she and OM were a "great" match. Early on, her therapist had recommended that we both read the Harville Hendrix book, "How to Get the Love You Want". I thought the book was insightful and fascinating. W enjoyed the book, but refused to read the last section which contained many pages of suggested exercises because she thought they were so much nonsense. Basically, they suggested work which is what I think she objected to.<P><B>Can I stand it longer?</B>: I don't think so. The lack of honesty combined with the implied threat of re-initiating sexual contact with the OM is morally, mentally and physically repulsive to me.<P>I re-read Suse's post and I remain totally amazed at the insight she displayed. Though focused primarily from the "betrayer" point of view, it does give a peek of insight to all of us. I believe that the key to success is that <B>both</B> parties have to really want it work or failure is guaranteed.<P>Anyway, dMac, thanks for listening. If you have more questions, fire away.<P>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 07, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 07, 1999).]

Hi HP,<P>Thanks for taking the time to be thorough. I've got a much better idea of what's going on.<P>You seem to be doing so many of the right things. And yes, I can identify with you because there were times when things were bad with Suse when I asked, "what the HAYALL is it that she wants? What more can I do?"<P>This may be very little consolation, but I think you've done a masterful Plan A. You've been much more patient than most of us could be. You've allowed her to carry on this insane existence without driving her out. That does take a LOT of self-confidence and guts. It shows a deep, deep caring for her.<P>Do you think she'll come back around? Said another way, most of us here so strongly believe infidelity to be a type of temporary insanity. Emphasis on the limited nature of it. Do you think she'll realize it, given time and counsel?<P>I can understand where your doubts come from. She sure has some behavioral patterns that don't bode well. And, the rebelliousness against any sort of confinement or definement is not a good sign.<P>Have you two talked about this? Or does she just blow you off? <P>I know you've written that you think once she's gone, she's not coming back. Have the two of you discussed what the future might hold? Since she's obviously still attached to you in many ways, does the thought of NOT having you in her life concern her? Or, is she willing to give you up for this "soulmate" thing?<P>HP, it's got to be so frustrating for you. I feel it just in reading about it. Nevermind having to live it. Then again, I have lived with some similarities.<P>You've been around her a long time now. Long enough to know that the "soulmate" concept is a fantasy. Do you think there's a chance she'll snap out of it? Realize that it IS not sustainable? Or, is it time to take care of "you" by going to Plan B and taking the chance she'll not be coming back?<P>Hang tough. I'm in awe of your strength and caring.<P>Dunc

dMac -- Thanks for the responses...I <B>have</B> driven her out. Not because I have insisted she stop anything, but because I insisted on honesty and forthrightness. Her reason for not telling me what the status is right now between her and OM is that she "can't trust me".<P>I don't have strong beliefs that she will come out of this, at least not returning to the place she came from. This may very well be a "temporary insanity". Usually, when a person leaves their current reality into one of these "fantasies", when they return, they come back to the place they left. I believe that W will eventually return to some(for her) place of normalcy, but it will be a different place on the reality plane. What I mean is that a return to reality may not be to the place she left it. You asked about time and counsel. I don't think that her current therapist is at the least effective in coming to the root problems she has. It's much to easy to blame me and if you just look at the surface, it would be a logical conclusion to come to.<P>I have tried to talk about things, most recently, Sunday night. As soon as she gets the least uncomfortable, she closes down and the talk effectively ends. She did say on Sunday that she was tired of feeling "guilty". I asked what about in particular and she used the example of going to workout at the YMCA last Wednesday night. Now the only disturbing thing about it was that she went alone with OM for this "workout". She just doesn't understand or want to understand why this has a negative impact on me.<P>In a lot of ways, she <B>isn't</B> ready for me to be out of her life. She has told me many times how much she loves me and lots of times, I see that in her actions. But she wants it on her terms, i.e., she wants to live alone, stay married, have the option to be free to pursue emotional and physical connections to OM, etc.<P>There is some "slim" chance that she will snap out of it, but it could take six months or six years or sixteen years. I am not a perfect person, but I was willing to work on the flaws that have affected her. There was just something in me that felt that we needed certain levels of honesty in order to keep trying. She doesn't want for whatever reason to give me that honesty. I don't see any need to try to continue in that environment.<P>I really feel that a lot of our possibilities were sabotaged by her therapist who she likes very much and has a great deal of trust in. Unfortunate, but there is nothing that can be done about it.<P>As I have commented in several posts, I really <B>don't</B> believe in the "textbook" Plan B. For me, Plan B is a complete and for all practically purposes, shutting out the other person with absolutely <B>no</B> thoughts, hopes, desires or expectations for a reunification. It is a "getting on" with one's life trying to live it in the way you most want. That is where I am headed at this moment. Only an immediate and drastic change in W's attitudes and expressions will alter this now.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 07, 1999).]