Okay, an update first:<P>H still here at home, nice T-day, horrible fight that night. The fight?! Well, let me begin by saying that he will be very angry if I say what it was about. Do I continue? It's a total lovebuster if he reads it. He gets very upset when I tell you about the things he does - he gets embarrassed. I spew my guts about my mistakes, and of course it would be okay if he spewed his guts about his <B>own</B> mistakes, but if I write about them, it's wrong. But, if I told you, maybe you could understand where <B>I'm</B> coming from. Not sure about that one.<P>Here's the thing, kids... I read the posts here, and just this morning, I read that the betrayer is trying to "justify" the affair, and there can be no justification. It always makes me angry. It doesn't matter what the betrayed did, no affair is justified. It doesn't matter if they hit you, emotionally batter you, or had an affair themselves. Can't be justified. How can we seperate "justify" and "reason" or "out of my mind pain" or anything else??<BR>Okay, so there's no justification for having an affair. <P>And then there's the way the betrayed person is treated afterwards. I've been the betrayed, I know pain. But I would swear on a <B>stack of Bibles</B> that I treated my H much better than he's treating me now. I am suppose to be grateful that he's still here. I deserve to be left alone because I made the biggest mistake that a spouse can make. So, yes, he's physically here, kinda sorta (which was part of the problem to begin with - he's a workaholic) and nothing changes, but he's here, dammit, and that should be good enough. Again, I'm brought back to "do I tell you what he's doing while he <B>IS</B> here??" Again, I can't. <P>I want my marriage back. He won't give it to me. I want peace and harmony. He can't give it to me. I'm suppose to wait, and watch him do things that I know he'll regret because he's in pain and can't help himself. So, where was he when I was in pain and couldn't help myself?? It's okay if he goes out to bars alone (and I won't even tell you what he's done there) because <B>he's hurt</B>. <P>Who's justifying what??<P>Yes, I'm angry today (maybe hormonal? ). But let me tell you... this has been one hell of a horrible ride! If anyone thinks I have it easy, because I was the betrayer this time around, you are gravely mistaken. <P>

My H was the betrayer and he felt like you. Tried and tried to make things better. Said alot of words and showed me love. Of course I feel that it was all head games because he left. But as you said you talk about watching him do things he will regret. No, please don't watch him do those things. Thats what my H did and it broke my heart even more and spun me deeper into depression. It is the pain and probably depression that is talking. Not him. Believe me I know. I said and did a lot of things that I can't believe. Just try to understand. Try to hold and don't try to fix. I didn't want him to fix, didn't want him to say a lot of words, just wanted to know he understood. I wanted him to support me in counseling and hold my hand and I wanted to feel his physical presence. That's all I had ever wanted. We, as human beings are so easy to please and be pleased. Just let him know you are there and that you will always be there. He needs to hear it is ok to have these feelings and that you, as the betrayer, understand them. You may not believe them to be true, but they are his feelings and allow him to express them without you taking them personally. I'm sure he is not trying to hurt you, just trying to verbalize his pain. Give him a big hug. Let him know how you feel. Please....I wished I could have heard those words more often. After about 2 weeks after I found out about the affair those words stopped. I feel sorry for both of you, please understand that I felt sorry for my H even though I didn't show it. No one is perfect and everyone knows that. He will come around, but it will take more time than you think you can handle. Do not abandon him, I'm sure that is his biggest fear. I know it was mine. Prayers for both of you

Sheryl,<P>I am sorry you are so mad today, but this is such a good place to deposit ALL that anger and hurt!<P>I didn't really understand the theme of your post - maybe I missed thoses posts with "justifications". Seems whatever you read really hit a raw spot for you. Doesn't take much while we are all so fragile to bring the hurt right up to the top again, does it?<P>I don't have a lot of time right now - I will re-read your post when I get back on in a bit, and whatever you reply and others post here, so I can understand a little better what you are feeling - sounds alot like PURE FRUSTRATION, friend. I just didn't want to tread this and not let you know I am sorry you are hurting yet again....<P>Roll Me AWay<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Mental,<P>Yes, I understand what you've written, and you've written it well. As I said, I <B>am here</B> and I haven't let go - on the other hand, <B>he has let go</B> over and over again. He is in constant punishment mode. I come here, tell the truth about what I'm going through, but can't tell what he's doing because it's a love buster, and that is bad. So, who can I talk to? Yes, he's hurting, and I so totally understand the pain. It doesn't help that I still work with the OM (I've written extensively on the reasons that my H and I both realize that I can't quit, but if you need it again, let me know). But <B>honestly</B> the OM is <B>NOT</B> the problem anymore. Well, that's not true, exactly. Because <B>I</B> still have to deal with him on a daily basis. I have to see him, I have to decide how to handle the "let's put all our names in a hat and pick names for Christmas presents", I have to see my walking/talking mistake paraded in front of me daily, and I suffer - I truly suffer. The affair has been over for twice the time it lasted by now (3 month affair, six months over). It was short, stupid, terrible, and I couldn't be more sorry for it. I began writing while still in withdrawl, last August, and I felt very blessed that my withdrawl was shortlived. I've wanted to work at the marriage since before I came here. Then I went through a "don't work" let it happen, and "give it to God" phase, and a "screw it" phase... I don't even know <B>where</B> I am now. <P>RMA, <P>I look forward to your words of wisdom. <P>

Hi, Sheryl.<P>We all need to vent sometimes! Better to yell here, than...you know!<P>You don't need advice. Just a break. So I'll just send you about a million hugs, ok?<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Sheryl}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Luv ya!<P>Lori

Thanks Lori,<P>Yeah, a vent...<P>But the thing is... I hate it here. I hate my life right now. I don't know what to do. I'm sick of his justifying his actions, but I can't justify mine. I'm just sick of the whole thing.<P>I'll take those hugs, and send a prayer for peace too, okay??<P>He's at <B>his</B> church again this morning. Teh one I'm not invited to, the one with the "meaningful hug" and "I just can't get her out of my mind" that I'm suppose to ignore because he's in pain. Makes me feel all warm and cozy all over... sheesh!!

nb -- I'm late to the party as usual...<P>I don't believe that <B>anyone</B> thinks you've had it easy. You've been thru h@ll and back several times and I don't think that you're out of tickets for the ride yet...<P>I am now believing that in <B>most</B> cases, the betrayer <B>does</B> try to justify the affair. In my case, over the last few months I have come to realize that W and I have been in parallel universes for the last 10 years. According to her, the marriage has been mostly sheer agony. The funny thing is, that it wasn't that bad until OM came along. I admit we've had a few bad times and didn't really try to work on our problems(the two biggest ones were honesty/communication and neither of us knew how to argue effectively and non-destructively). But we were reasonably happy and quite close a lot of the time. At least that's how it was in <B>my</B> universe.<P>So, don't get too angry about all of this. It seems to be the normal behavior.<P>Let me ask something(and don't get angry at me). Did you find yourself trying to justify <B>your</B> affair? If so, what was/were your justification(s)?<P>Maybe the attempt to justify is not only an attempt to assuage or eliminate guilt, but maybe rationalization is necessary to convince one's self of sanity.<P>Just my 1/2 cent worth.....

Heartpain, hey!!<P>Okay, get ready for my justifications:<P>He is never here - he's a workaholic<P>He never helped me with our special-needs son. He didn't even know what his disabilities were until last year, because I nagged him into learning about him. Our son is now 15 years old. So, from the time our son tried to hang himself in second grade (BIG wake-up call!) until last year, I was alone in this.<P>He had affairs which he never called affairs because although he kissed and fondled, he never had "sex". I was way out in left field for being jealous and/or hurt.<P>He moved me 100+ miles away from my family and lifelong friends to get away from the OW's... double-edged sword, yes he was away from them, better for rebuilding, but bad for my psyche. Plus, it was to the desert, which I hate!, that he moved me.<P>He wouldn't go to counseling. I went by myself for years. I KNEW there were huge problems in our household (dare I tell you about the bankruptcies [yes, plural], the huge weight gains [I weighed almost 300 pounds at one point], the anti-deps I was on for years, the churches we joined and unjoined and joined again, the molestation of two of my children by a family in the church, and other things that I can't say or it would be a "lovebuster" again?).<P>How's that for a start?

nb --<BR>Quick!!! Call the fire department!! We've got a seven alarm blaze going here and it's threatening the entire neighborhood!!<P>Seriously, what you listed were <B>extremely</B> good reasons to divorce or threaten with divorce, but <B>not</B> good enough for an affair. But you already know this right???<P>As for your H, I cannot understand what kind of fog he was in! Man, it's like when God offered to give him a clue he thought God said "brew" and he replied, "No, thanks, I'm a Scotch man, myself".<P>You've mentioned your son several times before. What was your H's reaction to the 2nd grade incident. It was definitely a BIG wakeup call for you. How did he respond? I apologize in advance for these questions you have probably answered a million times before, but I'm too lazy to search the posts. Which reminds me, it would be nice to have a better search engine to traverse the archives with.<P>Anyway, cool down a little. You do have good reasons to be angry, but make sure you vent here and not at home. We all have big shoulders and can take it!!!

Re: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Seriously, what you listed were extremely good reasons to divorce or threaten with divorce, but not good enough for an affair. But you already know this right???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Right, I know. And I should have divorced him.<P>Our son... well, he basically ignored the whole thing. Our son was not breathing when he was born. He was "normal" or so it seemed, until he went to school. I chalked his slowness up to being the "baby" in the house. Couldn't ignore it once in school. It would take days to explain everything that's happened with our son. How can I put it in a nutshell? He was having complex/partial seizures, the kind that blank you out, but not throw you to the gound, he has severe motor skills problems caused by diseases with super-long names (and the only reason I don't write it all here is the anonymity factor; they are very unique diseases, and if someone happened along who I knew, they would know who I was), and the only way I found out exactly what was wrong was to fight the school district, the HMO, and the doctors for testing. Luckily for me, during the last test I pushed for, an EEG, he actually <B>had</B> a seizure. Thank God! Then there were the meds to worry about, the school problem, etc. Even to this day, we fight with the school system. I, again, won't go into detail, but our son is now on what they call "hospital home care" where a teacher comes to our house. It's that bad. My H has disagreed with most of what I've thought was important for both our son and our daughters. Take braces for their teeth. Of course, the kid with disabilities had the WORST teeth, coming out from all over his mouth, and he was called horrible names. I was able to get braces at half price, and I knew my H would disagree, so I just had them put on all three kids one day. For real. He was very angry because it cost us $60 a month for around three years. But this is one of those things that I felt was so important. Relatively cheap and important. He never had his teeth fixed, so didn't understand why they should. See what I mean?<P>By the way, I <B>know</B> that there is no actual justificaton for having an affair. I honestly do. I'm just hurting right now.<P>

nb -- Thanks for the detail. I hope I didn't exacerbate your pain by making you go thru all of that again. Your H <B>does</B> appear to be a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. Maybe he resents your taking action since he is so reserved about it. Most of the time, that's a good match because one partner picks up the slack for the "lazy" one, but in your case, it seems to have devolved into resentment. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm just hurting right now<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know this and I'm really sorry for you right now. <P>With you, me and several others here feeling that way right now, maybe it's time for a "pity party"! Well, at least a "party". So, in the spirit of past MB posts, take the chip/dip bowl and help yourself. There are sodas and beer in the fridge and I've got some burgers and hot dogs on the grill. BTW, you'll like the dip. It's Asiago cheese dip!<P>Many hugs and much love(platonic/brotherly love as I told lostva earlier) to you. We will all get thru this, especially if we stick together......<P>

Yeah, heartpain, we're stuck alright!!!<P>Have a lovely Sunday, and pass the dip!

Sheryl I'm here. E-mail will be there soon <BR>and do you know what? sometimes life really sucks - even without all the added stuff. It's o.k. to feel unhappy about it.You're o.k.<BR>Hugs to you<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Sheryl,<P>Not sure if it helps or not, but here is my theory:<P>In the same way it took me a long time to get over what my ex wife did to me, it'll take her a long time to get over what I did to her. Then there is the time it will take us both to get over what we did to ourselves. In my case it took longer than either of us were willing to wait.<P>I think a mistake I made, and I think I have seen it repeated time and time again on this board, is that we all want our relationships back the way we want them exactly when we are ready to have them that way. We put the onus on our partners to be ready when we are. We never think maybe the onus in on us to give them some time.<P>All that aside, there is only so long you can wait. Only you know how long that is.

Sheryl,<P>Dearest friend, you guys are a family in a crisis that keeps on going like the Energizer bunny!<P>First, I understand about your son and those issues - I am Director over Neuroscience programs for a children's health sysem:epilepsy program, EEG and muscular dystophy and spasticity, etc. Ojne thing few can understand is this: When your child has problems of this magnitude - it affects the ENTIRE family - child, parents and the siblings! Heart goes out to you all for the long, long road you are on!<P>I wonder if your H is reacting to your children's problems in an unhealthy way - the inability to deal with it all coming out in all sorts of negative ways.<P>If any family ever needed a break - is sure is you guys! I am reading this book I bought yesterday and I highly recommend it: "The Solo Partner" by Phil Deluca. It relays alot about how we REACT to each other as a couple. MIGHTY interesting. After reading your post, I wonder if you and your H are caught in a cycle of unhealthy action-reaction-action-reaction. If so, the cycle CAN be broken and MUST be broken for BOTH of you to reclaim some happiness and move forward.<P>None of us see outselves and our own situation. It is so FRUSTRATING to feel like you are doing, giving and giving some more and seeing no rewards for all your efforts. Give this book a little look, Sheryl. It might offer you a different perspec tive and approach. You really have nothing to lose at this point.<P>Keep on venting, too. You still have so much anger and frustration and need to be able to purge yourself of this.<P>Oh, and just curious.....Is this a PMS Day???<BR> <BR>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi Sheryl,<P>In a way, I can empathize with you (even thought I am the betrayed) because I can see firsthand how much pain & suffering my H is going through. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, how much reading have you done on this subject? I found a very enlightening book (and no I don't get any royalties off this) called, "After The Affair" by Janis Abrahms Spring.<P>There is a section called - Stage Three - Recovering From The Affair. <P>On page 137, there is a section titled, TRACING THE TIMELINE; SEEING HOW CRITICAL LIFE EVENTS AT THE TIME OF THE AFFAIR MAY HAVE KNOCKED YOU OFF BALANCE. <P>The book encourages us to identify the critical events in our lifes that may have contributed directly, or indirectly to the affair. So, even though some say there should be NO JUSTIFICATION, it's important for all of us to understand the possible underlying events that may have contributed to our vulnerability.<P>Some of those critical events might be illness, or accident, death, being uprooted, a shift in status, personal failure, life transitions, or substance abuse.<P>I was shocked when I read this, as in my situation, we had six out of seven of those mentioned within a five year period. I think it's a wonder that we both didn't have an affair!<P>This book also forces us to explore our early life experiences to see how they may be undermining our present day relationships.<P>One other thing I learned from this book (as sucky as it is), it's often harder for men to recover from their wife's affair than visa versa.<P>You mentioned (I think) that your H won't go to counseling. Perhaps, he will agree to do some reading? There are probably other books out there that may even be better than this one. But, I did find this one to be very valuable in trying to understand all of this mess.

HI Sheryl,<BR> I so sorry for your pain. I wish you didn't say one thing though " I should have divorced him"<BR> I REALLY DON'T THINK YOU MEANT THAT.<BR> Maybe you guys should have been to a GOOD counseler OR gave it to GOD sooner. Or have you to this day???????<BR> Hang on my friend it's always in GOD's time. PRAYERS & HUGS FRANK<P>P.S. I don't remember WHY you need to stay in your job. BUT, is it possible that as you are upset at your H for not "Loving you back" He is upset that HE moved you guys FAR FAR away from his OP and you can't quit your job? It would SCARE the H*** out of me!!<BR> MONEY? INSURANCE?? Are you SURE that there's no other way? Could OM leave HIS job? He owes your marriage something too!! Just some thoughts. FRANK<P>

Hi Sheryl,<P>I can't find the words to express what I would like to say to you, I feel so much for you.<P>all I can say, and I believe it with all my heart, is that there is light at the end of the tunnel. You are stuck way way down, and can't see the light, but it is there.<BR>You will find the exit.<P>Do you guys have respite care over there?<BR>Over here, families with children like you son, who need so much care, can call on the local council and they will provide either someone to come into your home and babysit so you get a break, or they will arrange for the child to be admitted to a respite care home. That way, your son would be looked after, and you and your H get a break.<P>I'm not sure how you would feel about that, after what has happened to your children from church members (sick), but it is an idea.<P>Can relate to the desert. I can see beauty in the desert, for about 10 mins !!! Not my cup of tea at all.<P>You sound as though you are about to crack - is there anyone who can come to your home (parents, sister, brother, best friend) and give you some time out.<BR>I get the feeling you need time to yourself - even just a day would be enough.<P>I wish I could help you out, I would willingly babysit for you at anytime, to give you some time for you. (Take me a while to get there tho!!!)<P>Please hang on, your friends are with you, and behind you, all the way.<P>love, hugs and prayers to you<P>Jo

Boy, you guys gave me alot to think about: <P><B>Kat1</B>, <P>Love ya sweetie... keep the email coming! <P><B>nonplused</B>,<P>You are one of the most respected of the posters around here, at least by me! <P>Re: your theory- boy, did you hit the nail on the head when you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>we all want our relationships back the way we want them exactly when we are ready to have them that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're right. It's what I want. Where's that 2x4, Sheba. Here's my head!<P><B>Roll Me Away</B>,<P>The Energizer bunny! hahahaha... true enough...<P>Thank you for everything you said re: my son's disabilities. His disabilities are myriad, but he is able to be somewhat independent. He can, for example, spend small amounts of time at home alone. I try to stick to 1/2 hr. or less. Not more. He has matured to about the stage of a 10-12 yr. old, and every so often I see the 15 yr. old in him. So, it almost makes it more difficult for him. Sorta normal, nope he isn't, there it is again a little bit, nope gone again... you understand what I mean?? Again, so true about affecting the ENTIRE family. You are very wise.<P>I'll look into the book you recommend. The part about the cycle of unhealthy action-reaction-action-reaction... good grief, that's US!!<P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and just curious.....Is this a PMS Day???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NO DAMMIT! Uh, hmmm... well, ah, (she asks quietly now), How did you know?<P>Hi <B>sidney</B> <P>I read all the ding dong time, have read tons on the subject, although I don't remember the section in After The Affair that you've mentioned: that stage re: critical events. Boy, does that make sense. Gotta find that book and re-read... and for us... all but the substance abuse. So six outta seven for us too! Yes, I remember about it being harder for men to recover from their wife's affair than visa versa.<P>My H doesn't like to read, although he's read Surviving Infidelity and another book on the subject. He doesn't have a lot of time to read, it hurts his eyes and he really has a hard time with it. Not an option, but a good idea nonetheless.<P><B>PLEASE HELP, aka Frank</B><P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wish you didn't say one thing though " I should have divorced him"<BR>I REALLY DON'T THINK YOU MEANT THAT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry Frank, I meant it. Only because, look at the pain. I did go to counseling, I have given it to God (okay, I snatched it back!) but he wouldn't. <P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't remember WHY you need to stay in your job. BUT, is it possible that as you are upset at your H for not "Loving you back" He is upset that HE moved you guys FAR FAR away from his OP and you can't quit your job? It would SCARE the H*** out of me!!<BR>MONEY? INSURANCE?? Are you SURE that there's no other way? Could OM leave HIS job? He owes your marriage something too!! Just some thoughts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can't quit because it took me 7 yrs. to get this job in my area, it's very specialized, and I couldn't make a 1/2 (or maybe even a third) of the money I now make. We've struggled so much financially that my H and I both agree it would be financial suicide for me to quit when we finally have a chance to pull ourselves out of the horrid mess we created, especially now that two of our daughters are college-aged. Oh yes, we both wish OM would leave!! He was even offered something elsewhere on campus, but is waffling. He's an a**hole. I'm praying he leaves. My H is praying God's will be done in our situation. We'll see. <BR> <BR><B>bonnet</B> <BR>Re: Respite care...Sweetie, that's so nice of you to suggest, but honestly, my son needs care, but not that kind of 24 hr. care. He is more like a 10-12 yr. old in a 15 yr. old body. He may or may not ever catch up to his actual age, nobody knows. But he isn't bedbound. Thank you for the suggestion though. <P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure how you would feel about that, after what has happened to your children from church members (sick), but it is an idea.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For years and years afterward we were honestly afraid to have friends. These were our best friends, the pianist in the church and her H, the second in charge choir director. We have forgiven them because they are so pathetic. Their whole family broke apart after Child Protective Services got into the picture. The school principal for our son called them in. We had no idea. Dense? Yup, we believed that they were wonderful friends to us, even had our kids spending the night there. God! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can see beauty in the desert, for about 10 mins !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HAHAHAHAHA, ME TOO!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You sound as though you are about to crack <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I am. Luckily, I go to the doc tomorrow, think I need more Xanax???<P><B>And a general apology to all for being such a bummer today.</B> I don't even know who I am any more. Certainly not the person voted "Most Humorous" in High School. <P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!! <P>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited November 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited November 28, 1999).]

Geez, NB- I can sympathize with you completely! It was about the time that we found out our youngest has epilepsy and her seizures are absounce with a myclonic content, meaning about the same as you. She too has severe motor skills problems and I too am fighting the school. It seems right around this time period that my H had his affair. I am afraid I neglected his needs in pursuit of better conditions for my daughter and trying to find answers to my questions. We as Mother's (and this is a proven fact) are willing to face the problems and try to find a better place for our children, Father's have a MUCH harder time with these issues and have a tendancy to run. ( I was told this by a counsellor from the local epilepsy society!) Anyhow, I know that kind of hardship and how it puts a strain on the whole family unit.<BR>Are you both in counselling as a family? That seemed to be the basis of our problems and something happened while we were in the family counselling. <BR>Gosh, wish I could help more, but you are a strong woman and know what you need to do! I will say prayers for you and for your family as well! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>