Triggers are so hard at this time of year.<P>March*** was the 2 year anniversary of their first 'date' when she asked him to breakfast and suggested an affair. March ** is the 2 year anniversary of their first hotel tryst. **** is her birthday. *****was their 'final' breakup. <P>All these dates stick with me because there are paper reminders in several places in the house. <P><BR>I asked my h. to please put them somewhere else so our 13 year old son doesn't find them...he said he would, but its been two months and they haven't budged. There is another full set of this crap in our safe deposit box at the bank. <P>I said "Have you considered how radically your relationship with 'son' would change if he read your letter to her husband with all the details and dates of the affair?" "Yes, that would be bad."<P>Can anyone make a guess at why he keeps so many sets of this information? <P>It's like he wants very much to be part of a t.v. melodrama...<P>I pray daily to get over the anger towards her for all her sexual games and pretending to be just another nice middle class mom chatting with me at company functions...all the while she was laughing at me and boinking my husband at lunchtime.<P>I read that as recovery progresses, you begin to discover buried anger as it becomes safer to feel it. I think that is where I am. <P>My husband is trying very hard, but he still says things like "well, next year you'll kick me out". I asked if that meant he planned to betray me again and he say, "Not planning to, but I don't have a good track record, do I?" I want him to really repent before God. I want to be married to the guy who used to hold my hand and pray every night before we fell asleep. <P>Where did that guy go? Did he ever really exist? He hasn't made any more moves toward submitting himself for church discipline, like he said he was planning to do. I'm waiting for more signs of progress, more signs of true love and repentance, but maybe it's my type of 'fantasy'.<P>liz<p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited March 22, 2000).]

Liz,<BR>I feel your pain. I think he wants revenge for her betraying him. I think it is ironic that when the shoe is on the other foot my W still is unwilling to see that the hurt she feels from finding that he cheated on her as well as his W is the same pain that I feel.<P>Yet, she still contacts him and lies about contacting him. I still am showering her with text pages that show that I love her more with each day. I digress.<P>I think he wants revenge even though I am sure he won't admit it. My W kept asking me if I was going to take OM to small claims court for him breaking the agreement we made for the two day loan he hasn't repaid yet.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Rob, you are absolutely right about his wanting revenge. He has not taken well to being scorned and betrayed (ha!).<P>We talked about his backing off on plans for renewing vows. I mentioned his keeping the papers. When we got home, he threw them out.<P>He says that I am not out of line in what I want (new vows) and that I have given him more time than we agreed upon. Don't know what will happen next. I've drawn a line in the sand, I hope I can live with the consequences. He says he is 'almost' sure he can be faithful, for selfish reasons. "I tried an affair, I don't think they bring much happiness, at least not for more than about a year of 'newness'.<P>gotta go, <BR>thanks, Rob<P>lizzie<P>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited March 17, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited March 22, 2000).]

POGP... Liz, I think I like better, its more personal... Do you ever think that something in the pasts of these husbands of ours has them stuck???? Some emotional insecurity and trauma that triggers a need to run away from whatever they face... <P>I told my H that I thought he didn't like himself, hence the RPG games he lives in and the affair that started on-line.... He can be the persona of whomever he wants to be, he likes his unreal life better than his real one, its safer, it isn't out of control as often, the responsibilities are different, the rules you change yourself to suit..... <P>I think if these husbands of ours ever really found out who they are in Christ and how loved they are by God, they would be able to change.... They don't believe anyone can truely love them as they are because they don't love themselves. Yes they have to have revenge and take into control those things that they are able to cause a ruffle... I may be speaking of the top of my head, but as I talked to my H he said things about being little, and make-believe was so real back then and life seemed so simple... H is stuck... He needs to become unstuck, find those things that made him stop growing emotionally back there <a divorse between his parents at 7> and resolve issues in order to move on...<P> H suffered alot during the separation of his mom and dad... he was in the way, no one had time to deal with him and he was passed around alot feeling unloved and unwanted... I am beginning to think that many of our H's have these skeletons in their closets... Do you think your H really likes himself, much less loves himself enough to love another?<P>These are questions I ask myself alot.... Just wondering if anyone else ever lets their minds wander like mine ???? I also wonder if they test us to just prove they are no good, and we have to be the Jesus to them that shows them His unconditional, unwavering, unchanging, love.... A hard task for sure, but Christs love, grace and mercy are ours through the Holy Spirit, and when we havn't got anything to give we can use HIS, it never runs out... =)<P><P>------------------<BR>Jesus is the only answer!<BR>His blessings, Cozy

Yes, Cozy, I do find the same thing here. My H dad was killed when H was 5. His mother was pregnant with child #3, they had to move, his whole world changed. His mom tried to protect and control his world so much that he wasn't allowed to grow up and then one day, it seemed she cut the apron strings and he wasn't ready...he also is more comfortable in fantasy world and rages like an old bear if life doesn't go his way because he thinks it is time that things go his way. He has had no practical applicatin that the real world isn't a friendly place and so he doesn't like to stay in the real world. I realized today how God is softening my heart towards him, still needing to set boundaries but at the same time, find that balance some how...don't have all the answers and mostly I know the prayers of you guys are helping here as well.

They don't believe anyone can truely love them as they are because they don't love themselves, very true.<p>[This message has been edited by I_believe (edited March 19, 2000).]

Baggage from the past? Absolutely! My h.'s father verbally abused all of his children, even had pet put-downs for each. <P>This definitely impacts their need to control relationships, keep people at a distance--to prevent hurt.<P>God is working here...we have talked about my desire for re-commitment and his need for more time.<P>Therefore, I am no longer wearing my wedding/engagement rings...just the pearl/diamond ring he gave me for Christmas. He noticed during church today, and I explained to him when we got home that those rings represent an engagement he regretted, a marriage he wanted to escape, and a promise of fidelity he broke thirty times. <P>I won't wear them again, at least unless he can honestly say and mean his vows again. He said he understood why they were off, but made me promise not to sell them or get rid of them.<P>I hope and pray for a renewal of vows and a new ring...someday.<P>My mood is lifting after the shock of my sisters' death, and God is caring for me.<P>love to all, <BR>lizzie<P>p.s. the 'POGP' stands for Pearl of Great Price, which my h. said he realized he almost lost, that is why the pearl ring was my Christmas present...so even tho POGP is an ugly acronyn, the meaning is important to me.<P>"Lizzie" is what my mom called me growing up, and has nothing whatever to do with my given name! <P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Lizzie,<P>I don't know if this will help? A side from all the good views above I wonder if your husband feels that he has so control over all this by keeping the papers? During the affair I am sure he felt he had no control. Now he has some and maybe the papers represent that to him. He may be unaware of exactly what they mean to him but, I think that control may be part of the agenda even unbeknownst to him.<P>My other thought is that quite possibly this is all part of what he needs to do to process this all. It all requires certain steps. I think those are different for everyone and are very individual. I know mine seem to veer off the norm sometimes.<P>The good news is that you expressed how they made you feel and he in wanting to please you and show you that how you felt was important to him, got rid of them. I am so glad that he did get them out of his closet.<P>As far as the renewal of the wedding vows goes, I am stuck because I want our vows renewed and H is flat out refusing. It hurts me. He says he is already married to me and that he doesn't need to do it again. I have expressed how important it is to me and it doesn't seem to be swaying him. I want a brand new date. I want to do it on the anniversary of our first getting together. That was a happy and wonderful time for us both. Neither of us expected that it would be not only the first time we were together or that from that day on we never were apart and never saw anyone else. (That of course does not include the affair with the OW.) <P>So I will be waiting to see your updates on that particular subject.<P><P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B>

Samantha,<BR>I think you are probably right on target about control, and about time to process the whole mess. Thanks for the insight. Now he just has a set of the papers in his car...and someday soon, I hope, he will be ready to let them go too.<P>I must admit, I have a whole stack of evidence of the affair, and a set of the papers proving her affairs, but they are kept at a friend's house, more for legal purposes if we were to separate and divorce.<P>Thanks for giving me more to think about.<P>Happily, when I asked what he thought about the pastor's sermon today on 'work out your faith', which outlined principles for growing, he said "excellent, I can really understand and appreciate his sermons!"<BR>Of course, one major point of the sermon was "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", therefore, are you reading God's word...I wonder what he thought of that challenge? He used to read his Bible every single day early...<P>gotta go, he's home,<BR>lizzie

My heart aches as I read the posts in this thread.<P>As you all know, I drew the line in the sand, he left again and I've served divorce papers. Now he wants me, but I can't trust that any more than any of you can/do.<P>I had one day of feeling peace about the papers. The rest of the time I feel sad, failure, frustration, anger, numbness, empty. But I don't feel worse than before the papers. <P>If you draw the line in the sand, be prepared for the type of revival thing Guard has done, it caught me somewhat by surprise, but it isn't the first time he turned back to God. Those times he did another turnaround within days/weeks. I'm trying not to judge his faith...but it is very difficult to even consider trust with his last betrayal being just last month.<P>For those of us with Christian husband's (lapsed or otherwise) their fight is with God, not with us and until they right themselves with God, they cannot be the husbands we need.<P>My H constantly implies to me that I am now the wicked one because I served the divorce papers and because of my EA (no contact as of Thurs). After 2 years of being as close to God's will as I could and being God's servant to Guard, I don't appreciate being called "wayward" by Guard one bit. (D'ya hear the rebellion in that statement? I know... )<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Lor, MTAW, all my dear, dear sisters, <P>I wish we lived near each other so we could have a 'cuppa' tea and sympathy (as my dearly departed Nana used to say). It doesn't change diddly squat, but you can't beat a good cup of stiff pot of English tea and scones.<P>I tentatively plan to be patient until August 20, the anniversary of confession. He knows this, and understands that he must fish or cut bait by then, spiritually and relationally. <P>I love him more than breathing, most days, but I deserve a wholeheartedly committed spouse, no less. I have NEVER wavered in my commitment to him since he gave me his frat pin (corny, I know) in 1983 -- despite some extremely attractive offers.<P>hugs,<BR>lizzie

POGP,<BR>I too hope someday for a renewal of vows. My feeling is he broke our vows with me and with God. Therefore I would like to stand before God and renew those vows fully realizing what they mean to us and God. Although I went tot church, neither of us were Christians when we married. <BR>Of course at this point this is only a desire. Since he isn't even acknowledging he has any desire to return at this point. But God is great and with Him all things are possible. <BR>Father,<BR>I lift us all up to you. We praise you for hearing our cries and praise you for knowing the desires of our hearts without speaking them. Thank you Jesus and I pray each one of us can stand united with our husbands and recommit to the covenant that You so desire to preserve between our husbands and ourselves. Jesus touch our husband's hearts and soften them toward you. Lift the blinders from their eyes and let them look fully into Jesus' face. Amen

I, too, had hope of making new vows for this,our ten year anniversary(it was Dec 8th of '99)Still have until Dec to make it happen im my new church.A miracle is what I need.<P>At first we were married in a courthouse, then, because I needed to know it was "right" in the eyes of God,(although I do believe God was present even in the courthouse),we then had our five year marriage vows renewed in a bible believing church,and also got "re"baptized together,etc.<BR>It was right after that when H had a one night fling(who really knows how long an EA was going on first...)<BR>The enemy only seemed to tempt my husband the hardest when H and I committed to a church and to each other.<BR>It wasn't long after that commitment/vows, then fling,that H started his own business and became a workoholic and started to smoke pot after quitting for over ten years...........The church going stopped- I stopped going too..........So here we are five years after all that, on the brink of separation(He really is looking hard for a place to live) He is walking away from our mortgage and finishing our home. Now I am here, and I don't have any idea what I am going to do.<P>But you know, I thank God that all of this happened!!!<BR>He has a plan, and it is far better than any plan I could have.<P>Anyway, is the POAPW study guide/our study still happening? I ordered my study guide............<BR>Love in Christ,<BR>Jn

P.S. hw, I love your prayers so much.

Lizzie, a cuppa tea together would be so nice! It sure would be great to all be together in person huh. We've all been through so much together. I thank God each and every day for all of you, there is no way I would be able to function with you ladies. Your prayers mean so much to me. <P>I think Rob is right, that you H was wanting revenge. I'm glad he got rid of some of the evidence. In a way I'm in kind of the same situation, except that I didn't do a very good job of enforcing the "line in the sand" that I drew. I'm trusting God to tell me what to do on this. My mind is so messed up right now, any decision I make would probably be the wrong one anyway. Lor and Lizzie, I wish I had some of your strength right now. <P>I had also talked to my H about us renewing our vows. He didn't want to. <P>And also, my H has a sordid past, full of verbal, emotional, and physical abuse by his father. H has had problems controlling his temper since he was a child. He is really mixed up in his head, his priorities are a mess. I feel that his alcoholism is a direct result of the physical abuse by his father that he suffered as a child. I also feel that his disrespect for women is a subconscious result of his anger towards his mother for allowing the abuse to go on thoughout his life at home. H ran away at 15 due to his father's abuse. His father regularly abused all of them. <P>Thank you HW for your beautiful prayer! You are such a blessing. Please keep praying for us. <P>

I agree with the revenge part. If you all remember, my H made plans to take the OW to court over $1000 he loaned her. There was a court date set and everything. I finally talked him out of it with the help of all your prayers. I just wanted to put it all behind us. She was nice enough to call him and thank him for dropping it. (Guess she should have thanked me :-) Then he contacted his lawyer again when she began calling him once again to try to stop her. His lawyer is great & agreed with me on all issues to just drop it and move on. We did! I guess it is just something to work through. Blessings, J