Hi, This is my first time posting anything.I was thrilled to find this website and I've read quite a bit of the others postings. To be truthful, the pain that wives of alcoholics go through time and time and time again really scares me. I know Dr. Harley says that an addict loves his alcohol so much that he is willing to put his relationships and all else in jeopardy to get it. <P>I have been in turmoil because of my husband's drinking also. I have been married 23 years. I have told myself for the past several years that when my youngest graduates I'll be out on my own in a flash. I know he really loves me. He isn't the type to go out to bars, or chase women but likes to stay up late at night and drink. Also when out fishing with buddies, etc. Twice in the last six months he has drank to the point of blacking out. I don't trust him at all, also lies about whether he's had a drink or not. Sounds typical doesn't it.<P>Last week I hadn't been talking to him much because of my hurt inside (it sounds like you all know what I mean). I went to a family gathering without him because I could tell he had been drinking and he didn't want to go with anyways. The next day when we talked again he confessed that he "did something" with his wedding ring and couldn't find it! I bet he threw it in the garbage or flushed it!! Talk about adding insult to injury. <P>He never says he's sorry. He just gets up the next morning and acts like nothing is wrong and nothing happened. What's up with that? <P>I asked him how he would feel if I punched him in the stomach every week or so and never said I was sorry or tried to stop it.<BR>Talking doesn't work does it. <P>He wants to resume our relationship again and I must say it would be so easy but I know I'm setting myself up for more of the same if I do.<P>I've been on my knees in prayer many times over the past years but God has always told me (through some means) that I belong with my husband. I know staying has helped my girls and I want to obey God. Doesn't God want ME to be happy too? I've stayed because of my obedience to Him.<P>Sorry for going on and on. Please pray for me. BonnieJ<P>------------------<BR><p>[This message has been edited by BonnieJ (edited March 30, 2000).]

HI Bonnie, If you're like me, you're dying for someone to post a reply. I really feel for you. I too, continued to stay and put up with it because I wanted to be obedient to God. If you haven't read what I've written in the previous topic, I hope you will.<P>I am so happy that I've learned what I have learned. I don't think it is being obedient to God to allow our husbands to treat us the way we've been letting them. God specifically tells them to love us as they love themselves. If we allow them to grind us into the dirt, we are not following God's plan. I guess I'm starting to think along the lines of "Tough Love". <P>You know, I know alot of women who act like I do - they are peacemakers, and try to be very nice, friendly, and helpful. Their husbands don't "cross the line". I do sometimes wonder why mine does, or yours, or AW's or the rest of them that do. Well, I really know now that we have the right (as well as the power) to say "NO MORE".<P>It's funny to me that I'm a little intimidated to pray "on-line" - when I'm not in person, but I do want to pray for you.<P>Dear Lord, I thank you for what you've been showing me - that you don't want us treated so badly. It's hard Lord, when we want to be kind, to stand up for ourselves, but You can help us. Please strengthen us. We are Your children, and are therefore worthy of love and respect. Please lead us to stand up for ourselves. Don't let us be demeaned because we're trying to be Your servants. I know our world isn't perfect, but help us set boundaries Lord - even if we do have to stand firm and maybe even take actions we don't necessarily want to take. Help us be good examples of godliness for our children, and not doormats to wipe our husband's feet. Dear Lord, Your Son treated prostitutes and beggars with respect. Help us to understand that we are worthy of respect too. Thank You for a place here where we can share our burdens and thoughts with others who truly understand because they have been through it too. Thank You for Your love. In Jesus Name I pray, Lord. Amen

Bonnie,<BR>Welcome to the prayer warriors group. It is hard when we want so badly to honor the Lord by honoring our husbands and to receive less than honoring behavior back. I think the hardest thing for me to hear from the counselor when living with Tommy before he died was that the "bottle" was the other woman in our marriage and that he couldn't love me. Like you, I knew during those periods of not drinking, I savored our relationship for it was so different than when he was drinking. I guess I am finding it interesting that we began this journey learning how to pray for our husbands which began with asking the Lord to change us, and He continually brings us back to Chapter 1. Toss in there that many of us are hearing the same affirmation that we need to set boundaries and are reading Boundaries in Marriage, trying to understand how to honor God and our husbands by setting limits and refusing to accept less from the men we love. Addiction, no matter what form, is an idol, a false god, something put above God. We tiptoe around it, not wanting the wrath to occur rather than displaying some righteous anger as Jesus did when He chased the moneychangers out of the temple. Our bodies are now the temple...<P>Paul tells us:<BR>1CO 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. [25] Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. [26] Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. [27] No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.<P>Are we disqualifying ourselves from the prize for allowing others to berate us, abuse us, verbally or emotionally, we crave godly marriages but what are we doing in our training arenas to make our own bodies our slave? How often have we lamblasted (or love busted) our spouses for their flaws and ignore our own shoddy training for ourselves, not girding ourselves with the sword of truth or the breastplate of righteousness. In the training arena, we set limits, tell ourselves no to those things that are bad for us, endure the pain of steady exercise, so that we are strengthened in the end, stronger because our eye is on the goal.<P>Paul further talks about the freedom of choice that God gives us in verse 23. Do we seek the good of others for our husbands if we allow them to continue to treat us in the manner that they have been doing? Has Satan so twisted the Word that we fear setting limits because it might seem to be only for our own good? Are we encouraging our husbands to be godly shepherd/leaders when we allow them to treat us in dishonoring ways? <BR>Have we ourselves twisted the Word and allowed fear to replace doing what is right in the Lord? <P>1PE 3:8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. [9] Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.<P>I am seeing more and more that living in harmony does not mean putting up with verbal abuse. Who of you have brothers or sisters and remember caring enough about them to tell them the truth about something? Are we to love our husbands any less?<P>I love how the admonition to not repay evil for evil coincides with Harley's concepts, POPW and Boundaries for Marriage, in that we are to speak the truth in love and not love bust. These two verses in Proverbs seem to fit as well:<P>PR 14:1 The wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down.<P>PR 21:9 Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.<P>How often do we respond with the same emotional defensiveness that our husbands display instead of knowing what the goal is, speaking the truth in a quiet, gentle voice. They do not hear us when we respond in the same way they do. They justify their actions by our reactions. <P>1PE3:10 and more:<BR>[10] For,<P> "Whoever would love life<BR> and see good days<BR> must keep his tongue from evil<BR> and his lips from deceitful speech.<P> 1PE 3:11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.<P> 1PE 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."*<P> 1PE 3:13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? [14] But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear*; do not be frightened."* [15] But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, [16] keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. <P>How often do we stop confronting in a loving way or setting limits that are good for all of us when our husbands begin their tirades and we feel we haven't pursued peace? We begin to fear their reactions and we are pulled into the dysfunction that Peter warns us about.<P>Finally he says in verse 17:<BR> It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. <P>All this is being shown to me in a whole new light this morning. It is God's will that we be helpers to our husbands, that we work for their good. We are not to be nagging drips, but calm, serene speakers of the truth. So we may suffer for awhile by their rage and hateful behaviors which previously whipped us back into silence and a quasi-submission not like the Lord described as submission. We do not honor our husbands or the Lord to allow this behavior to continue.<P>Father, You have brought us together to teach us, older and younger women, that You might be glorified, that Your Word would be firstmost in our hearts and minds. You are allowing us to go through the fire that we might first be teachable and secondly, that we become the women You would have us be. You did not give us a spirit of timidity, but one of power, of love and self-discipline. Help us to train as the athletes do that our minds and body are slaves of righteousnes, that our light reflects Your truth. Search us and show us what we need to cut away from our lives, that You might be glorified and that our husbands can see the quiet and gentle Spirit within us. IJN Amen.

SueB, That was a wonderful response from you. Thank you for reminding me what my purposes are - to have a godly marriage. I have been so relieved that I've finally found a way to break the cycle of anger that I think I forgot what the end result was that I wanted to achieve.<P>I love what you said about them justifying their actions by our reactions. There was a period of about 2 years where I tried to show him how he was acting by "giving back the same" to him. Boy, did that not work. He would accuse me of starting things. It was good to abandon that - all it did was lower me to his level.<P>The funny thing is now that I'm standing firm, my husband has seen how he's treated me. All the times he turned his back to me and wouldn't talk - he said if that was anything near what it felt like to him when I stood firm that we would go to counseling together or get a divorce, he's very sorry. He never knew what I felt. I really do think it's funny that he realized it without me trying to show him. It is great to find a place for women who have lived the same thing to support each other.<P>

Cindy M and Sue B<BR>Thanks so much for your input and for opening my eyes to some important truths about how a husband should treat his wife. I haven't had the problem of being a person who gets out of control with yelling - just the opposite. I bottle up too much inside maybe to the point of him not knowing exactly where I stand. I have been praying that God would strengthen me and give me the wisdom to do the right thing and that He'll help me with the words to reach H's heart. <P>On Saturday morning we'll have the house to ourselves and I plan on having a serious talk with him about where we're going. I don't even know what to say! If I say you HAVE to quit drinking and you HAVE to go to AA or an alcohol counselor, won't he be doing it to please me instead of because he knows he needs to? Will that work? He already knows it hurts me, that I hate it. I've been emotionally withdrawn from him for a long time already. <P>Anyways, thanks for your Godly wisdom. I printed your responses and have read and re-read them. And thank you for your beautiful prayers! I haven't been in a Bible study for a while and I almost forgot how good it feels to be prayed over. <BR>I'll let you know how our talk turns out.

Bonnie,<BR>You are welcome. The biggest thing as you sift through your options for addressing issues with your husband is to understand the consequences. If you say to him the drinking must stop, then what are the consequences going to be if he doesn't and are you prepared to back them up? If you are not, then it is an empty threat and you may as well save your breath. I will be praying for wisdom for you.

Hi Bonnie, I'm glad you're learning so much. I feel like I've learned many this week that I should've learned years ago. <P>One thing my H said, is he wishes he could just go to the counselor with me, but not because I insisted. Now, I have asked him to go probably (and I'm not exagerating) between two and three thousand times. He didn't chose to go then, and I honestly don't think he would ever have agreed to go unless it was going to cost him something (in this case, a marriage!). My response to him was, I wish you had chosen to go because it was important to your wife, not because you felt you had an ultimatum. I questioned earlied why this was happening to me, when I knew other wives who act like I do, and it doesn't happen to them. Well....I'm beginning to think it's just that some men really do want their wives to be their "mommies". I explained to him when he was asking why I was standing firm this time, that, just like with our children, if we tell them not to do something, but there's no consequence, they're not going to change their actions. Perhaps that is what it is. Do you suppose our husbands just really want us to tell them what to do? My husband has in the past said things like, "I don't want the responsiblity for leading our family" (while I WANT my husband to be the head) and he never wants to make decisions. If he does, then he can't complain about the result if it doesn't turn out like he wants it to.<P>Hang in there. I agree with SueB - if you give him a consequence, be sure you stick to your guns. It's hard!!!!!!!! I would never have been able to do it if I hadn't had my father's words ringing in my ears. Go for it!!!!! I usually act the way you said you do too, and just don't even bother to express myself (what good does it do, and I don't want to have a fight). Like I said, I did try showing him how he acted for a while, but it didn't do any good. I know the key is to stay calm and rational, but all the while stick to your guns. Good luck.

Another thing to think about Bonnie. The Boundaries for Marriage book talks about building a large support group around you so that as you go through the tough changes, you will not feel isolated and end up backing down. Do you have support people around you who will love you and pray with you during this time? Remember, one of the consequences may be that he leaves the home. Are you really prepared for the ramifications of that? Emotionally, financially, etc. setting a limit or boundary is important in marriage but we also need to be wise and prepared for success too. If I had told my alcoholic husband to stop drinking or leave, he would have left. What I had to do instead, is that when he landed in jail for a dwi, I left him there, as I didn't want to spend the money to bail him out. I let him make the choice for either treatment or extended jail time. I had my own job though and resources to take care of myself and my children. He knew I loved him but that I wasn't covering his hinney this time.<P>Though I am not dealing with alcoholism this time, the situation is in some ways more volitle in that verbal and emotional abuse is rampant with minor threats for physical abuse. I can look him in the eye and tell him he had better make it good, for it will be the last time he touches me and he backs down. Now I just need to also be as firm with the other abuses as well.<BR>

Cindy M,<P>You said something that really caught my eye.<P>"They are suppose to love their wives like they love themselves"<P>Unfortunately, that is exactly what they are doing. My husband is not an alcoholic, but I believe he has traits of narcissism. The thing about narcissists is they have such a fagile ego and an over domineering superego that they constatly hear in the heads "You're a ****ty little kid" That is what my husband hears. The super ego is the parental control of your childhood. Therefore to protect themselves they have built up an elaborate false self. They need others to constantly mirror to them how great they are, admire them. From this comes this false sense of "I am great" (even thought they are not) and unconsciously they know they are not. If something happens in their life like a job failure then that grandiosity is smashed and the hidden depression behind the grandiosity comes out. (Sorry all the psychological babble, I was writing a paper on this subject). As they look to others to tell them how wonderful they are (mirroring) they at the same time split off the parts of themselves that they cannot accept and put it on to others. Therefore the other person (often a spouse) becomes this bad guy in their eyes. They no longer value you, and then they need someone knew to mirror to them how wonderful they are- the ow. There is a movie entitled "The Woman". In it the wife is explaining to her daughter about her husband's infidelity. Women when they get bored they go buy a new hat, or change their hair style. Men on the other hand when they are tired of seeing themselves need a new mirror in which to view themselves. Rather than changing the image in the mirror they find it reflected back to them in another women's eyes. They need someone knew to tell them how wonderful they are.<BR>Now alcoholics can have some features of this but instead of another mirror they need to medicate the sense of failure or low self-esteem. The addiction is avoidance of feeling their feelings.<BR>So to get back to the original statement. Our husbands by their actions are literally loving us the way they love themselves. I think we need to reword this to say. <P>"Our husbands should love us the way God loves us!"<P>Lord, So many heart aches. It is soooo hard to care for someone and watch them return that caring to themselves, their bottle or another woman. But how incredible that we are not left alone. You step in and fill our husband's place. You are there, loving us, admiring us telling us how wonderful we are just because You made us. Of Father, when I think about it, it is too much to comprehend sometimes. Lord will You dance with each lady here and look in their eyes tonight and tell them how very much You love them and that You want each one of them to know that and to know You? Come to God and fall into His arms and be revived. Rest in His rest, strength, love, and hope. He is waiting for You right this moment. Father I praise You for such a love as this that overwhelmes me. How awesome, You love us so much that You substituted Yourself for my sins on the cross. Let us never forget what You have done and I ask that you increase our faith today. You are our source of strength. Praise You, Lord, for the loving women here and their support for each other and their daily prayers. Amen

HW-thanks for explaining narcissism more clearly. Sure sounds like my hubby. Would make sense since Pastor explained emeshment to him and how unhealthy it was and he disagreed with Pastor that it was a bad thing.

Wow HW - that was great. I have "named" it low self-esteem and depression, but that is exactly what I'm dealing with. And you are also right about him "putting things on me" that are actually problems he has. One thing I've really noticed is that he always says that Americans never want to stand up and accept the blame for their wrong actions. He'll tell anybody that, but yet, he's the worst one I've ever seen for that. <P>What I'm wanting to figure out is if there's really any hope at all. It just seems so deeply rooted, that I truly wonder. Your explanation also helps me realize how this could have started within the first week of our marriage. I even contemplated divorce then (sure would have been alot easier b.k.) but a friend told me God hates divorce and so I tried and tried. Anyhow, I was always puzzled how this could have started. It still boggles my mind, but you've definitely shed some light on the subject for me.<BR>

Cindy M,<P>There is an online book that is great. Warning, it may depress you. If you truely think your husband has narcissistic personality disorder, you are right it is deep rooted. However, We have A God. <P>My prayer is: I know there are many ways my husband will never change, but I release him to you to change him in ways I never expected. (I think this is in the POPW the wife? any ways<BR> <A HREF="http://www.geocites.com/athens/Forum/6297/msla.html" TARGET=_blank>www.geocites.com/athens/Forum/6297/msla.html</A> <P>The above site is for this book. It is called Malignant self Love: Narcissism Revisited by Vinkin (begins with a V anyways)<BR>A very interesting book. Another book which covers narcissism and depression is "I don't want to talk about it" by Terrance Real. This is an excellent book. Alice Miller wrote "The Gifted Child" also excellent.<P>I have found the topic very interesting and maybe I'll just study it one of these days when I get my MSW and go into counseling.<P>At least I can say that my husband is getting counseling. I see changes but it is something they will always have to some degree.<P>Many times the men have the trait of grandiosity (I'm great attitude) they lack empathy etc. and the grandiosity masks the depression on a continuum grandiosity is at one far end and depression is at the other. Well when a man displays grandiosity and they fail in a job situation where there illusion is shattered then the grandiosity will fade and the depression will become more prominate. This is what happened with my husband. He didn't exactly fail at his job but he lost an important position (Partly because of his contribution but really more about others involved, but he was the fall guy, unfortunately) this is when the depression really became pronounced. <BR>Sorry to go on and on but I was up untill 3:00 just last night reading the research for a project that I couldn't do. So it is fresh in my head. So now for the project I am examining the effects of socioeconomic status on whether teenagers who give birth finish high school. Some switch huh. But the question is easier to pin down and there is more available data.<BR>Well that is enough use of the intellect for the night. Have to get 9 year old in bed and myself after only 2 hours of sleep last night. Sweet dreams all.<P><p>[This message has been edited by hw (edited March 23, 2000).]

Sounds like my husband might have a touch of narcissism too. I don't think I want to know any more problems he has - I might be the one to leave - haha. I think I'll have to get myself a copy of the book - Boundaries in Marriage. Who is the author? I really don't have a big support group because I haven't talked about this with anyone. Truthfully, I don't want to go through all the work this is going to take. It sounds like an incredibly long process with "iffy" results. Maybe I'll wait until my daughter graduates in June and then just give him the ultimatum. If he says he's leaving - oh well. I can make it on my own, I wouldn't have this stress and constant headaches. It's how I feel tonight. I know it's not what God would want me to be. I'm tired of always being the one to forgive and work so hard at this. Thanks for your prayers, you guys are awesome.

<A HREF="http://www.ichristian.com/cgi-bin/inetcgi/search/searchlist.jsp?BV_SessionID=%40%40%40%400037495706.0953887203%40%40%40%40&BV_EngineID=ialhfddeefmbemfcfkmchgchh.0&search_area=all&s" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ichristian.com/cgi-bin/inetcgi/search/searchlist.jsp?BV_SessionID=%40%40%40%400037495706.0953887203%40%40%40%40&BV_EngineID=ialhfddeefmbemfcfkmchgchh.0&search_area=all&s</A> earch_item=keyword&search_text=Boundaries+in+Marriage&search.x=16&search.y=12<P>Bonnie, Setting boundaries when you haven't before is a lot of hard work, especially when the spouse reacts negatively in order to get you to change back to the way you were, or increases the very behavior you were concerned about to get even, etc....I do recommend the book. And while I am seeing the importance of boundaries in marriage, I just didn't want you to be bold without all the ducks in a row, so that you were prepared. We don't have to live what you are going through and so, though we can encourage you and pray for you, but we don't have to experience whatever consequences will come your way. Cindy has been firm and the results in her marriage has been positive, however, that isn't always the way things go. In my marriage, Pastor had me make a list to determine when I would know that my safety is in jeopardy and that the time came for straight forward communication with the possiblity that I would leave the home to protect myself and to preserve the love for my husband to work towards reconcilliation.

Hi Bonnie! So glad you've joined us. There are some really wonderful, caring praying women on this forum, who'll give you sound biblical advice as well as loving support and encouragement. <P>I just got back on-line today, so I have to apologize for not responding to your post before this. I'm at work now, but will re-read this tonight and respond. As you can tell from my username, I am married to a practicing alcoholic. Life can be sooo rough living with an alcoholic. One thing that I have to remind myself of daily is that my husband is sick. He has a disease. If he had cancer, I wouldn't forsake him, nor would God want me to. So, I stay, and pray, pray, pray!<P>If you want a little background info on my story, here's a link: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000243.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000243.html</A> <P>God bless you, and please know that we're praying for you. <P>Prayers,<P>AW<P><BR>

Bonnie,<BR>I was wondering how your weekend talk with your husband went. Praying for you.

Hi SueB,<BR>I asked him what two things would improve our marriage most. His response: 1) to spend more time together 2) quit drinking. He didn't say "cut back on drinking" he said "quit." I was happy about that. I didn't give him an ultimatum because I don't have a consequence that I can live by right now. I need to get that Boundaries in Marriages book at get smarter about this first. <BR>I'm glad he knows his drinking is a problem for us. Unfortunately he doesn't want to go to an alcohol counselor or AA. He hasn't had any for three weeks now and when he sets his mind to it he can quit for long periods of time. I think that's why he believes he doesn't have a problem. For me it's peaceful during those times but I'm always wondering when it's going to start again.<P>Anyways, I ordered the "His Needs/Her Needs" tapes and we're going to listen to them. So, I'm going to enjoy this peaceful time we're having together and wait for the other shoe to drop and pray, pray, pray.<BR>Thanks for caring<BR>BonnieJ<BR><p>[This message has been edited by BonnieJ (edited March 30, 2000).]

That is pretty exciting Bonnie! Sounds like we have to pray that he can continue to not drink. That he even answered your question was pretty terrific, as he now has let you know that companionship is his biggie on his emotional needs list. And that he is even willing to listen to the tapes is pretty fantastic too!<P>Father, thank you for the way you intercede for us, that you go before us and behind us. Thank you that Bonnie's husband was willing to answer her question and that he was honest in his response. Father, surround him with your presence, teach him in his dreams, strengthen him that he might continue to resist the bondage of alcohol. Take away all desire for the drink and fill him with a desire for his wife. Such an awesome God you are, we worship you, we praise you, we desire to honor you in our marriages. Teach us how to be the women of faith that you desire for us to be. Show us how to be the helpmeets that you created us for and how to encourage our husbands so that they desire to be the servant/leaders you created them to be. IJN, Amen