He just went to bed. When he got off the computer at 10 like he said he would,I guess it was a bad time to bring up the issue with discipline from earlier today that we never resolved. I would have said something, but I didn't want him to sigh, turn off the computer and make it such a sacrifice for him to stop his game and talk to me about the way he handled the discipline today.<P>Recently we decided that he needed to not use corporal punishment because it's too easy for him to leave marks. Whether or not this has to do with anger or control problems, we have not yet concluded. I have had such a hard time when he deals with them because my heart just shouts for me to stop him, even if he's not touching them. I can't tell you specifically what it is. Maybe the tone, the words (sometimes harsh), or maybe he reminds me of my stepdad who was abusive with us. I don't see him as abusive (my H) and he isn't an angry person. I don't know what it is. Anyway, he toned it down a lot and I thought we had decided on some effective ways to keep all of us happy. I just felt today that he was getting too frustrated and acting like it, which was not ok. You can't expect a 6 year old to stop crying on demand because it annoys you. That's unrealistic.<P>He said I wasn't recognizing the efforts he's made (maybe true) and that I didn't have to bring it up right at his bedtime (also true). I was afraid if I let it go and he got annoyed enough, he might go in and use other ways that are just as awful as hitting to make her stop crying and obey. Threats, yelling, all that stuff. I think there are alternatives. He was too frustrated to see them, in my opinion.<P>Now, he has to work in the morning, I understand. He always cuts off our conversations at this time of night regardless of whether or not I'm bawling and not sure if we're going to stay married (I know, ridiculous, but I'm emotional what can I say). I know an argument never means the end. It's just not an option.<P>In my eyes, this isn't something I can let go so easy. We have to resolve this before it causes emotional damage to the kids or before the state gets involved and takes the kids (he had left a mark a few years ago on my daughter-older 2 kids from previous marriage-and we went through SO much! Another story tho...).<P>AM I being a "nagging wife" and need to "shut up and pray"? Or is this valid? How do I get through to him? Or should I even bother? I"m hurt that I don't mean enough for him to miss a couple of precious hours of sleep. That he doesn't see this as an important issue...important enough to deal with immediately. I'll be up all night half crying, half praying, wondering whether or not I'll eventually be forced to leave by the state or lose my kids. That's taking it pretty far, I know. But it's not totally impossible. Anyway, let me know what youthink.<P>Thanks<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Love...bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS..."-ICorinthians13:7,8

If you don't protect your daughter, who will? If you let her be harmed now, then who will she hate as a teenager and adult? The one who didn't protect her. Scripture says do not provoke your children. <P>I used to do foster care for severely abused children. They had a lot of behavior problems due their previous lifestyle. They needed to learn that there was a difference between discipline and abuse. I always gave them a chance to obey by slowly counting to three, dragging the one by its sylabbles... Onnnnnnnnneeeeeee, etc. <P>The children learned that when they heard it, they had better move. When we were in public, I would get their attention, via eye contact, and slowly count on my fingers, no words. If their behavior warranted correction, it usually was in line with the behavior, loss of privileges, the need to do chores around the house to earn money to replace a broken item, that kind of thing. The single soft swat on the behind if necessary was the affirmation that the child had really erred. The children also learned to recognize that if I lowered my voice, rather than raised it, they were in trouble. <P>The purpose for discipline is to teach them in the way they should go, to help them to discern and to make right choices, to develop integrity, self-control, etc. I had a mother who liked the power she felt in threatening to give me something to cry about to stop the crying from the spanking received. I learned that it is not okay to have feelings, much less express them. I learned to not cry when she spanked me and then she would hit me more in efforts to make me cry since it obviously wasn't enough to make a point. I cannot begin to tell you how difficult undoing this learned behavior has been. On the postive side, I learned how to NOT parent from her and my children were blessed for it.<P>I have learned that the anger shown for bringing up issues, such as you did last night, is an attempt to control the effort to make changes, control through anger. The anger is his problem and he does need to deal with it. You need to protect your daughter and to teach the both of them how to do things differently. <P>You know, the kids and I could wrestle and leave bruises on each other, but a soft touch, a single finger to the leg, shoulder or whereever, eye contact and a lowered voice could bring a child to tears and know that they made an error. <P>My children are adults now, parents themselves and as we talk about discipline issues, they now are in awe as we discuss the whys for the things I did as a parent, as they grasp the understanding of the purpose for discipline and they are amazed at the changed behavior in their own children when they switch their tactics to the ones I used.<P>Find ways to build your husband up, to boost his self-confidence so that he doesn't have to use "power" as a means to feel good about himself, but be firm in those areas that affect the future of your children. I will be praying for you.

Ya know, each time someone responds I think maybe I didn't explain it right because they seem to think he's got issues with power and control, or that he's abusive and angry when he deals with the kids. For some reason that doesn't register with me. When we went through all that stuff with the "spanking incident" I sided with him, knowing he didnt' mean to hurt her and that everyone was blowing it out of proportion. I can see at this point there are some issues in his need to control the situation, mostly stemming from teh way HE was raised.<P>I've experienced abusive behavior, and I wouldn't categorize him as abusive. I would say he doesn't understand children's behavior, and how to effectively deal with it. He doesn't understand what they're capable of doing, and which demands are just unrealistic (for example, "quit crying right now!"). He was raised to be controlled by his father and he learned to obey quickly, no questions asked.<P>I want to understand his need for obedience by the kids and I want to support his efforts to make a peaceful environment. I just see him going to a different version of the same type of reaction to their behavior, instead of stopping and talking to me or thinking about the most kind and loving way to handle the situation.<P>My greatest fear is that my "nagging" combined with being fat, an awful housewife, a mediocre cook will push him away. He'll feel that he can't make me happy and leave, without ever understanding WHY I chose to make such an issue out of THIS particular thing. I know he won't leave. I don't want his life to be unhappy, yet I can't let him scar my kids, so to speak.<P>NO matter how I explain it, it's always seen as abuse. Maybe I need to take a closer look.<P>What about the fact that he doesn't use spanking anymore? He stopped immediately at my request. I think it shows he wants to work on it, just that maybe he doesn't know how. And in the heat of his dealings with them may not be the best time to give him pointers.<P>I need suggestions I think.<P>Thanks! <P>------------------<BR>"Love...bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS..."-ICorinthians13:7,8

Delivered! <P>I don't recall whether you have been specifically referred to the book, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/031022151X/104-2872626-0343119" TARGET=_blank>Boundaries in Marriage</A> by Drs. Cloud and Townsend yet, but it is a wonderful start for dealing with a husband who has control issues. <P>SueB is the expert on boundary setting here. She is also an awesome expert on raising children. I read her link to her own history several days back. Most of us couldn't believe it was really her at first, too incredible to imagine such a full and exciting life. Many of us just thought it was one of those heroic inspirational stories we sometimes post to each other! <P>Just read your response to SueB. You need to get into more counseling. If you don't see what he does as emotionally abusive it indicates that you have a problem. Your history of abuse does cloud your perceptions. <P>Believe us all. You are in trouble, but not necessarily terminal trouble. Read a lot more about issues of child abuse, emotional abuse, controlling behaviors if you can. Better is to go to a good therapist who can help you see things as they are. Not as the therapist sees them, but it will help to get a bigger picture.<P>If you need to get more healthy before you make any decisions then do that first, but do not put off protecting your children until H's bedtime. You need to react at the moment he does something outrageous, like demand that a six year old immediately stop crying. <P>Your issues with weight and housekeeping are also spiritual matters, symptomatic of many things including your past. Self control is not easy. SueB once gave a link to a email list that really helps people who have trouble with keeping house. The name for this is Sidetracked Home Executives! Cute, huh? One of the volunteer mentors is FlyLady at <A HREF="http://www.egroups.com/group/FlyLadyMentors" TARGET=_blank>http://www.egroups.com/group/FlyLadyMentors</A> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited June 14, 2000).]

Don't know if this makes sense or not, but sometimes when we see things occurring that kind of waves a red flag in our mind, we tend to compare it with out life experiences...so what you see occurring may pale in comparison to what you experienced as a child and therefore not seem like child abuse. Your comments about him possibly not knowing how to deal with issues could be well true. I know my husband didn't realize how his screaming impacted the children here until he saw me doing differently. He has improved his skill tremendously in the last few years. <P>So perhaps it is team meeting time, a date with just the two of you with a pad of paper to write down all the different ways you could handle the behaviors that come up, you affirming the progress he has made so far and how you desire to support him, but also sharing your concerns. The two of you come up with consequences for behaviors and then perhaps you make up some kind of chart that is on the fridge so that your daughter can see it and know what those consequences will be. The goal is to catch them being good so that they will increase their desire to continue that behavior rather than focus on the negative consequences which give the information that they are bad people. It also takes the sting out of having to make immediate decisions in the midst of a behavioral crisis, because the consequences are already up there on the fridge for all to see.<P>For example, we had three rules in my house:<BR>1. You may not hurt yourself.<BR>2. You may not hurt anyone else.<BR>3. You may not destroy anyone else's property.<P>Those three rules covered a lot of behaviors. Notice they had the freedom to destroy their own property but the natural consequence of such is that it wasn't replaced unless they saved their money and replaced it themselves. As everyone needs a sanctuary, their room was their sanctuary and in their room they could be angry, cry, etc. If after disciplining a child and they begin to cry, I let them go to their room to cry and when they were finished, they were able to come out and then we would talk about the event, so that their feelings were acknowledged as well as mine and they would understand that I had the job of raising them in the way they should go. It gave enough space for all of us to get a breather and then be able to hug them and to affirm our love for them in spite of having to deal with disobedience etc. It also showed them that we loved them in spite of their behaviors just as God loves us in spite of ours....<P>I do think you need to pay attention to your red flag warnings, but if he has stopped spanking after your saying something then perhaps you will now be able to progress to the next stage of teamwork. <P>Father, thank you for showing us the examples in your word for how you discipline us and how you love us in spite of our humanness. I lift up Delivered and her husband and ask that you intervene with your wisdom to guide them in developing a plan for discipline so that incidences like the one that just occurred can be eliminated. I ask that you bind this couple together and help them to be united as a team. Give Delivered words of wisdom to be able to affirm her husbands efforts and soften his heart to hear her without feeling condemned and not good enough. Be with them in their discussions and let Your spirit control the atmosphere. IJN, Amen.