That is exactly the correct way to set the boundary on your anger. Youre more generous than I would be though, think I would have said I needed to know 2 hours in advance, since child will be upset anyway, for the loss of visit and at least then you could figure out something special to do with the rest of the day.<P>So sorry about the vacation! That is so yuch! Any chance that there is a camping spot near where you work where you could camp with the kids and go back and forth to work from camp? Take another adult friend with so the kids aren't without adult supervision? Then at least you all would have some fun for a week. We used to do that all the time in Nebraska.<P>And I know you have mixed feelings about the divorce papers. <P>Father, disappointments are so hard to deal with, especially for children. Wrap Kozee's children in a blanket of your love that they can weather the wishy washiness of their father. Strengthen Kozee to stand firm in her boundary and give her wisdom in how to deal with her husband in light of his saying that he will be bringing divorce papers tomorow. Father, you know that Kozee has held firm though a lot of things with this man. Give her your peace and comfort, knowing she has fought the good fight, and that the outcome has never been something that she could control. Help her to rest in Your love and fill her to overflowing. Work out the situation of her vacation in such a way that the children will have opportunity for some fun before school begins again and that Kozee will have the peace of watching their faces smiling while still being consistent with in the work place. Father, give her wisdom about the work situation so that her transportation time is not so long. Open up doors closer to where she lives, use the body at hand to be good resources and references for her talents. As always, Father, we give you the glory for answered prayer, IJN,Amen.

<B>1. What did you appreciate about the lady's approach to her less than satisfying marriage?</B> The fact that she had no hidden agenda, in that she just wanted to be what God wanted her to be. <BR><B>Did you notice that she took action to fill the holes in her marriage rather than continue to expect him to fill them for her, and that it appears that he NEVER filled those holes in their marriage?</B> Well I didn't notice until you mentioned it. Filling our own "holes" seems to be a way to keep from being disappointed. We've still got to ask God to fill those empty places our husbands don't. I read somewhere that if you don't expect anything from your spouse, you won't be disappointed. I need to work on lowering my expectations.<BR><B>2. When will you follow her lead and ask your spouse "What do you see me doing that hurts or bothers you?"</B> As soon as David comes home from CA. In a way I have already asked him this as several times before he left I had asked him what I was doing or not doing that caused him to want to go. There's been several times when we were talking that I have asked him "what can I do more of, better, less of, etc. that would help you feel good about being home". He would just say keep doing what you're doing...... <BR><B>3. When, if ever, have you or your spouse set personal boundaries that made you or him better to live with? What current need is there for you to set boundaries on your own character?</B> I have never set personal boundaries that I know of, but have tried to become someone that is easier to live with than I used to be. I may be wrong here, but I think David has unconsciously set boundaries that he doesn't want me to cross. I.e., he doesn't want to be questioned after being late coming home, so he stays gone later and later. He is a hard person to understand. I have so much to work on in the boundary setting area, that I don't know where to start!

<B>Withdrawal from Relationship</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Failing to make and keep connections is a serious character issue. T & C, p. 72<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Pulling away and avoiding to be open/vulnerable with one another can occur by one or both spouses. Reasons for this vary:<BR> • Basic trust injuries<BR> • Fear that relationship will control them<BR> • Fear that relationship will hurt them<BR> • To feel free by cutting off relationship<BR> • To set limits by cutting off relationship<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Emotional isolation withdraws the most basic part of ourselves from the source of life: relatedness to God and others. p.72<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Emotional Absence-withdrawal manifesting itself in this way can be seen in these examples:<BR> • Husband who is "there, but not there"<BR> • One spouse can give love and support, but not receive it.<BR> • one spouse, connected at one level, who disengages when the connection goes deeper and more emotional<P>Most couples battle with the tendency to withdraw their hearts from one another as it makes them feel safer and more protected. What we are checking here for our own assessment and growth is how we have allowed withdrawal to go unchecked and to continue which will drag our unions down and condemn them to a slow starvation. T & C remind us that "marriage requires love to sustain itself" (p. 72)<P>For those who recognize themselves in these examples, here are some ways to disengage yourself from the withdrawal and avoidance behavior and to set boundaries on this tendency.<BR> • "Enlist the aid of your spouse. Ask him to let you know when he notices you pulling away. Ask him how it affects him. Does it hurt him? Make him lonely? Finding out how your avoidance influences others is a way to limit your disconnection."<BR> • "Discover why you withdraw. You could fear rejection, being controlled, or being judged. You could be punishing your spouse for hurting you. Understanding the reasons can help you set limits on this behavior." <BR> • "Say no to your tendency to avoid relationships, and expose yourself to others who can help you connect" (T & C, pp.72-73)<P><BR>I have had to reread this a few times to clarify the thoughts in my mind. We are not talking about physical withdrawal, something we might do to put a boundary on being exposed to verbal abuse, but emotional withdrawal, where we feel nothing, dead inside and couldn't care less. I found a couple of spots where I do this...now the self assessment time where we are challenged to dig deeper...<P> • If you tend to withdraw, seek what is behind the behavior, a struggle to trust, fear of being controlled, or of being hurt. Does this withdrawing behavior help you to feel safer and more protected? <BR> • Which of the 3 steps listed above will you take to help set boundaries on the tendency to withdraw from relationships?<BR> • If your spouse tends to withdraw, what might you do to help him first recognize and then set boundaries on that behvior?<P><BR>It is interesting, in the two scenarios where I am aware that I do withdraw emotionally, I found myself saying yes to each of the possibilities, but the bottom line I think was emotionally sealing off all feelings, not wanting to feel anything. Cause if you feel it, then you gotta deal with it...LOL ... Sigh ...<P>As far as my spouse goes, I am sharing with him some of what I am learning and I use those words, "I am learning" so it might look like this "I am learning XYZ from this study and wondered if that is some of what you are going through too. I discovered this about myself and this is what I can do about it, since I am the only one who can change me. It's pretty interesting!" This way I am not making any accusations that he can "deny", I am taking the risk to be more open to him and share a part of me with him and at times, I can apologize about some thing I learned or I can dig further to gain greater understanding of my husband if he does respond positively as it being something he can relate to. If he does deny that he is going through anything like that, I say "Oh, okay, just wondered. It just fit for me because...." It also provides an opportunity to ask for his help in an area, like we have been challenged to do. There are a couple of areas where I haven't gotten brave enough to approach and will have to keep it in prayer and continue learning here. (I reread what we all have written as well!-at least we won't have torn tattered pages on the puter!)

<B>Irresponsibility</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Ever since the Fall, we have protested the reality that our lives are our problem and no one else's.</B> T & C, p.73<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I laugh every time I think of Eve and Adam passing the buck. I feel sort of human and a kinship to them when I catch myself in this predicament. It's one of those things I have known, but, in recent years had gotten kind of blindsided about it. The authors maintain that this is how chldren and immature adults go through life, howling that "its not fair" that they have to handle (or shoulder)their own responsibilities and avoid the consequences of their actions (or inactions as the case may be). I guess I never thought of it in terms of adults and that is where I got shortsighted. I spent so many years asking my 7 children where it was written that life was fair and putting their responsibilities back on their shoulders. I've told some of you that on my fridge was a sign that said, "Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" to help them recognize the importance of planning and communication. I somehow thought that when people grew up that changed, and I do admit that often when my H pulled his tantrums, I did feel just like when the kids were home, dodging that which wasn't mine, only building resentment up at the same time...I never thought about irresponsibility in terms of "feelings" per se, could visualize it in specific "behaviors", visual actions, that maybe the kids wanted me to assume responsibility for. <P>So I could relate somewhat to what the authors were saying about shirking responsibilities except in the "feeling" area until a 150 watt lightbulb went on in my brain after reading: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Or you may argue when others say no to you. The inability to accept another's no indicates a difficulty in taking ownership of your own disappointments and sadness and a struggle in allowing other's freedom.[/b] T & C, p.73<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A lightbulb because this is exactly where my H is at! Now, I know we aren't supposed to be looking at anyone's behavior except our own, but this insight into my H was key to understanding for me, as well as a major help in me seeing that my response to his inability to hear no was vital to my growth. That my allowing resentment to build up due to his expectation that I should make him happy at all times was MY problem and MY irresponsibility showing its face. (Told you I was a slow learner at times)<P>I am finding it is a two-fold thing. I can be empathetic to my husband, understanding that he struggles in the area of owning disappointments, sadness and allowing others freedom and I can encourage him to verbalize these things, ask him what his options are for handling his feelings and how can I encourage him in this area (without assuming responsibility for his stuff) and I can take ownership of my resentments and decide how I want to respond to my H in light of God's truth. Don't know if that makes sense or not but it is helping me.<P>For the obvious shirking of responsibilities, beginning projects and not finishing them, chores or financial tasks undone in hopes that someone else will do them, T & C offer these suggestions for self boundaries:<P>"Submit yourself to safe people who can confront you on your irriesponsibility. p.73" Ask them to help you to be accountable, i.e. "I want you to tell me when I bug you with my flakiness. It really helps me to change."<P>"Accept both consequences and feedback for your problem. Tell others to stop enabling you and, for example, to leave for the party without you if you're late. Realize that consequences will help you structure your life better. p.73"<BR>"Tell your spouse that his silence and/or nagging aren't helping you. Ask him to love you, but at the same time to provide limits for you when you don't set them on yourself p.74"<P><BR>

Okay, new situation.<P>The annual summer party is coming Friday. H has decided to stay with his present company. So he feels he needs to go (show loyalty). We have always gone. He said the kids would probably enjoy it. When I was there today briefly he said think about you going. Well, this is my current thinking. I do not want to do this as any form of revenge but for my own feelings. So please comment how this comes across.<BR>my thinking. Since as Sue pointed out to me the whole idea and end goal is to be his wife in total. Therefore if I go I am "playing the role of wife for show" To me this lets him have his cake and eat it too.<BR>So I am thinking of saying something like: <BR>You know how much I always enjoy the summer party and seeing everyone. Yet, I feel it would be too hard for me. J, I want to be your wife in total and for real. So I am not content to "play your wife." If you are inviting me because you want to spend time with me, or want to see how it feels to be together as a family because you are thinking of trying at the relationship then lets talk about it. (I don't know whether to say anything about next week such as. Also are you still planning to go on vacation with her next week at her brothers? If that is the case then you are probably not thinking about coming home.) So it would hurt too much to play your wife knowing that you are still thick with her.<BR>J, I want to be a support to you in your career and I want to be supportive of you. But I find that hard to do while you continue this relationship with someone else and with you making it clear that you are in a relationship with her and not with me any more.<BR>So please give me your thoughts. I may have to say something tonight, but hopefully not until tomorrow.<BR>Thanks all... See you at prayer time.

HW, I know it is scary doing new behavior, but I do think you have the right idea about the whole thing. Can you do it as a "matter of fact" information deal, minus the emotion, but out of genuine concern for the both of you? I especially like the affirmations that you want to support him in his career, etc. You have done a lot of praying and soul searching I think. Your comments are of a desire to honor both you and J and the relationship. I suspect he is very comfortable knowing that you are there for him. Maybe this is the time for the comfort zone to be shaken a little, the responsibility bag back on his shoulders. I am only one voice, but I say go for it.<P>Father, in this business of discernment, of separating responsibilities and understanding your view of honoring one another, we seek your face in the matter of HW and Jack and their relationship. Father, give HW your mighty insight into how to speak the truth in love, to set boundaries on her hurt so that resentment does not creep in, to be able to present to Jack her thoughts and concerns and desires in a loving way, so that Jack is given something to think about. Father , we know you hate divorce and we know you can soften and harden hearts. We ask that you soften Jack's heart to hear HW's concerns for their future together as it stands now, her willingness to work on the relationship and her unwillingness to be a stand-in wife when the time is appropriate. Father, help him to see what he is doing to his family, his children, his future with you. Father take his blinders off and let him see the full force of the consequences of his behavior before there are no more chances. Turn his heart towards his wife and give him the courage to let go of the evil around him. Put a hedge of thorns around his mind and remove all thoughts that are not of your character and integrity. We know you work all things to the good Father, and we wait in expectation for the joy that You will bring in your time. We give you the glory, IJN, Amen.

Sue,<BR>God was with us on this one. I just took him home. he stopped by. Anyhow he did not bring it up tonight. As he closed the door he said lets talk tomorrow. Yeah! Praise the Lord. This is a little matter, but I did not want to talk about it tonight because i had not entirely worked through this and I want to pray. Sue, I know that this probably won't bring us closer together in the short run, but God is still working. I know that you are right, in that I need to look toward the ultimate, I want to be his wife in every sense. Thanks for the support and feed back. I know that T & C say when you start the process of putting boundaries in place you need support. It is great that we can all support each other in this way. Thanks again. If anyone else has thoughts please fire away.

I haven't been saying much, but want to let y'all know I'm reading this thread. <P><B>When we confess who we are, we are being emotionally present with our husbands and we are allowing them to minister to the vulnerable parts of us. When we take out the blame and hold out the truth of our own responsibility and failures in certain areas, this then frees the spouse to be the man God designed him to be. </B><P>I think I'd probably have an apoplectic fit if my H ever ministered <I>me</I>. "Emotionally absent" is an apt description of my H, something that's bothered me a long time. Now that I'm reading this thread, I hope to get some more tools in my box to change that. I didn't realize what a wretch I am until reading this thread. <P>Oh dear, now I can't see the post that was before mine. HW? Your idea for setting boundaries on the company picnic sounds good to me. I've made progress communicating with my H on quasi-sensitive subjects by keeping my voice calm and low. A high pitched voice shuts down his ears, and shreiks give him a cerebral cortex shutdown. Good luck!

Okay.....<P>I want the Lord to change me "gently", I just can't handle it when I have an impatient father with a whip behind me demanding that i start changing or else.... <P>I am so glad that the father that I know in heaven is always standing behind me, in front of me and beside me, and that is because he surrounds me with his love, and holds me in his arms as he gently teaches me to change.<P>I recently wrote this to my husband.....Okay, guys - this means I am wide open and vulnerable.... say a prayer for me! This is a little scarey, but I also consider it "faith in action".....<BR>TNT<P>Dear Mr. TNT,<BR>I need you to help me on more than just personal boundaries. I need help to deal with "irresponsibility". Also, do you realize that you enabled me to be irresponsible this morning? Bye helping me and writing me a check. I need to talk to you - not while you are work, but tonight, and I just want to let you know that I am really trying to "gently" grow to be a Proverbs 31 wife for you. I really do love you, and want you to be happy, and I really am trying to grow. I've been praying about this for some time - so, I think it is time to talk to you - to ask you to help me do this.<BR>TNT

WOW! TNT- this is really phenomenal! Look at all the risks we are taking to get these logs out of our eyes! I am so excited! Do you have specific ways thought out in which your husband can support you in this. It isn't a help if you don't have a specific plan. Heard a joke on Dobson this AM that Freud at the end of his life felt he had pretty much figured out everything except for one thing...what is it exactly that a woman wants? Our husbands do desire to help us, but we have that responsibility to tell them how they can help us in specific ways rather than just a general way...the general way leaves lots of room for failure and is an open invitation for hurt and misunderstanding. You two have come so far! Plan for success! And thank you for sharing this major risk that you will be undertaking. It is an encouragement to us all.<P>On another note, do you guys ever listen to Charles Stanley with In touch ministries? I don't know if he still can be heard via RealAudio at <A HREF="http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/broadcasts/daily_sermons_76101.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/broadcasts/daily_sermons_76101.html</A> or not, but his sermon today is dynamite. <BR><B>url address is now correct to go to the message!</B><BR>Thought a lot about HW when listening to him and the risk she will be endeavoring on. Anyways, if this is a series he is doing, I am going to pray to get the money to buy this one! It was great!<P>And it is good to hear from you lonesomeheart. I am sure God is going to do some great things in your life through this whole ordeal! So glad to see you post! How are things changing for you since you started reading here. What things are God making you aware of, both personally and in your relationship? Keep us posted!<P>Karenna, you mentioned rereading giver and Taker. In light of you feeling as though the boundaries area of your life is in pretty good balance, are there things in Harley's book that would tie in with what we are learning so that we can glean from that as well?<P>Will try to get the next section up soon. Keep looking up and inward ladies. God is growing us!<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 09, 2000).]

<B>Self-centeredness</B><P>In view of the hurts we have experienced in our marriages, it is natural to think more of our situation rather than another's, to get caught up in the mode of thinking "What about me?" T & C state however, that this is one of the most destructive, marriage-busting character issues.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Marriage cannot be succesfuly navigated without our giving more of ourselves that we are comfortable giving....self-absorbed people often attempt to live as a single person within marriage thinking theycan get what is important to them and still pull off the relationship.</B> pg 74<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Results of this type of behavior leaves the spouse feeling lke an object or feeling as though her own thoughts and feelngs aren't valued.<P>T & C identify the structure of marriage as anti-selfish, in that the relationship or process of living with one another exposes our weaknesses and failings to the other person as well showing ourselves the limits to our own goodness. This probably ties in with the giver/taker part of Harley's stuff and hopefully Karenna will shed additional light on this for us soon. <P>Some of you can relate to the feelings of not being vaidated in your relatinships, but have you also heard the retort from your spouse regarding not feeling affirmed. since we all struggle with selfishness in one degree or another, T & C suggestions for putting limits or boundaries on your own self-centeredness are as follows:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ask your spouse to tell you when he doesn't feel that things are mutual between you, or when he thinks he has to constantly see reality your way. (hate to admit it but this one stung me!)<P>Learn to let go of the deman to be perfect or special. Accept instead being loved for the real you, warts and all.<P>Say no to the urge to be 'good' and learn the skills of forgiveness and grief. Forgiveness and grief wil help you accept the reality of who you are and who your spouse is. p.74-75<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I first read this section, I felt it fit my hubby more than me, but since I am praying for the truth of things to be revealed, I do have to admit to struggling with perfectionism. Gonna have to pray more, for the first boundary limit exercise is one I have frequently heard from my hubby, that he feels he has to accept reality my way. In terms of my setting boundaries on what I believe is God calls me to do in the process of living a holy life, I do desire acceptance, warts and all...(more about this in the control section coming up) and that does surround accepting my reality for myself in this area. Hopefully God will clear this up as we continue to search out the truth of things.<P>The think about questions pose opportunities for thought.<P>In what ways, if any, are you trying to live as a single person in your marriage? What unrealistic and sef-centered dreams, if any, (like wanting life to be put on hold the minute you return home from work...hmmm, or the minute your spouse walks in the door) are interferring with your marriage?<P>If you have problems with self-centeredness, which of the steps identifed above will you take to help sets limits on this behavior?<P><BR><B>Judgmentalism</B><P>Another of the struggles, couples experience is with judgmentalism, judging, criticizing, or condemning others. An individual may experience difficulty accpeting differences in other and tend to see differences as black and white. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And they often misread a person's actions out of a need to be lved and accepted: they hate both the sin and the sinner.</B> p. 75<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This behavior is called the great "love killer", for to live with a judge means that one is on trial at all times, creating an atmosphere of fear where the judged spouse walks on eggshells to avoid the wrath to come. look at 1 John 4:18 which identifies there is no fear in love and recognize that fear had to do with punshment.<P>In the loving 'discipline of growth", love grows due to the knowledge of consequences, things are above board and expectations, etc. are clearly identified by both parties. The very soul and character though, in the person living in a fear of punishment enviromment are "tried and condemned and then cast out of the relationship" p.75<P>Help for setting boundaries on the judge role, if you see yourself here, might utlize these tasks for growing out of this position:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ask for feedback on how your attitude hurts those you love. judgmental people are often surprised at how wounding they can be.<P>Become aware of your own attacking conscience. Most judging types have a very strict internal judge taht punsihes them. Learn to receive compassion and forgiveness from God and others for your own failings. This can help soften the conscience.<P>Develop compassion for the faults of others. Remeber we are all lost with God's help. p.75<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The main point in this section is that while these characters issues that we have been discussing create much disharmony and strife with our marriages, when we "own them and set limits on their hurtfulness, and submit them to God's process of growth, love can flourish." (p.75-76)<P>Self-growth-<P>Have you found yourself to be the judge in your marriage? When do you find yourself hating both the sin and the sinner?<P><BR>If you are the judge in your marriage, which of the tasks above will you undertake to remove the judging behavior from your character?<P>If you are the "condemned" person in your marriage, what limits can you undertake to promote a love and growth environment rather than one of fear? Of the things we have learned so far, how would speaking the truth in love apply and how does understanding this part of your spouse's character help in response to you being responsible for your feelings, etc?<BR>

Okay Sue, here goes. i am going to try to paste in this poem I got today that so fits this thread. if it doesn't work....<P>all right it didn't work<BR>So I will write it out.<P>Letting Go<P>Letting go doesn't mean to stop caring,<BR>it means I can't do it for someone else.<BR>To let go is not to cut myself off,<BR>it's the realization that I can't control another.<BR>To let go is not to enable,<BR>but allow learning from natural consequences.<BR>To let go is to admit powerlessness,<BR>which means the outcome is not in my hands.<BR>To let go is not to try to change or blame another,<BR>I can only change myself.<P>To let go is not to care for,<BR>but to care about.<BR>To let go is not to fix,<BR>but to be supportive.<BR>To let go is not to judge,<BR>but to allow another to be judged by God.<BR>To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all outcomes,<BR>but to allow others to effect their own outcomes.<BR>To let go is not to be protective,<BR>it is to permit another to face reality.<BR>To let go is not to deny,<BR>but to accept.<BR>To let go is not to nag, scold, or argue,<BR>but to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.<P>To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,<BR>but to take each day as it comes.<BR>To let go is not to criticize and regulate anyone,<BR>but to try to become what, by faith, I can be.<BR>To let go is not to regret the past,<BR>but to grow and live for eternity.<BR>To let go is to fear less and love more.<P>unknown<P>Now if this does not sum up all that C & T and BIM is all about. Wow!! I thought this was great. In this poem is all that God has been trying to show me and for me to get ( I too am a very slow learner LOL)<P>Hope you all enjoy it. I will have to try harder to see if I can get this down. You know Sue I did it once, but I don't remember how I did it. Oh, well.....<BR>I have aol, maybe someone can help me with this. I am trying to write off line and then paste here.....<P>Thanks<P>

Well, J came by and we talked and I said so what did you ant to talk to me about? He said are you going Friday. I was very calm and matter of fact and I said what I shared above. He said he understood and I was probably right. But as we talked about other things he blew something out of proportion and made an issue out of it. I argued calmly and said I was not going to let him off the hook and we discussed it. He said that he didn't hink he could love me the way I wanted him too. I said that was a choice. If he came back he would resent it. I said that's a choice. If you choose to resent it then yes you will, I said I of all people should be resentful but I have let it go because it does not solve the problems....<BR> It was easy saying what I had to say and I guess his geting upset at something else sort of threw me off but it should not have because that is the way he oftren reacts. So. I prayed afterwards and let it go. It is in God's hands and I know that I did as God wanted. <BR>I have not allowed him to reep what he sows. I have robbed our marriage of that. I shared a few things of what I have been learning, purly me though. I trust God for this, and I think this is really what God has been saying to me as far as putting Him in the "middle of my marriage". For myself I am going to stay in praise and prayer for the rest of the evening. This is the kind of thing that in the not too distant past would have thrown me back into the pit. But I feel confident in God. In the short run this probably will not help the relationship but it is the long run we are interested in. God is good. He was with me and supported me by keeping me calm but also in not backing down.....Praise to our Great Lord... Please pray for me to remain in praise and prayer and draw closer to him. It is worth it....

Father, trusting you for the outcome, we praise you for your faithfulness in being with HW tonight as she spoke the truth in love to her husband. Continue to minister to her now in the aftermath, in the name of Jesus,we rebuke and bind any spirits of evil that might surround her in this time of vulnerability. We lose all spirits of comfort, serenity, joy, peace and contentment that she feels the full measure of your love for her. We thank you for being our tower of strength and fortress. <P>We thank you for how you will use this for your glory in Jack's life. We thank you for helping us to have a desire for your long range vision. Help us to be like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Paul who each were willing to join you in your work, your plan, though they knew not what it might entail to begin with. They were obedient to your call even when they didn't have the full picture in front of them. Strengthen us and increase our faith that we might be equally obedient to your direction in our lives so that we too can join you in your work. IJN, Amen. <p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 09, 2000).]

Thanks Sue for the prayer. I hate disappointing him, but I know I did what God wanted me to.<BR>Thank you Father, for being with me tonight. Thankk you for showing me how I need to change and how I need to take myself out of situations that are so hurtful. I must acknowledge my feelings and seek to change me through knowledge of You. I praise you Lord, for this forum and for the women here. Thank you for using each of us to support, love and instruct each other in your own special way. Thank You Jesus, in Your precious name, Amen.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And it is good to hear from you lonesomeheart. I am sure God is going to do some great things in your life through this whole ordeal! So glad to see you post! How are things changing for you since you started reading here. What things are God making you aware of, both personally and in your relationship? Keep us posted!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sue, thank you for your confidence and your prayers. I've been at the computer all day and am a bit crosseyed right now. I don't know how to answer your questions. <P>HW, you poor thing, typing all that text!! Anytime you have some text highlighted (even on a webpage you can click and drag to highlight), use your keyboard shortcut to copy (ctrl c). When your cursor is in the place you want to paste, press ctrl v. Then there's the third keyboard shortcut that NO one should live without -- ctrl z. Undo! HTH<BR>

SueB wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Self-centeredness</B><P>In view of the hurts we have experienced in our marriages, it is natural to think more of our situation rather than another's, to get caught up in the mode of thinking "What about me?" T & C state however, that this is one of the most destructive, marriage-busting character issues.<P>quote:<BR>---------------------------------------------<B>Marriage cannot be succesfuly navigated without our giving more of ourselves that we are comfortable giving....self-absorbed people often attempt to live as a single person within marriage thinking theycan get what is important to them and still pull off the relationship.</B> pg 74<BR>---------------------------------------------<P>Results of this type of behavior leaves the spouse feeling lke an object or feeling as though her own thoughts and feelngs aren't valued.<P>T & C identify the structure of marriage as anti-selfish, in that the relationship or process of living with one another exposes our weaknesses and failings to the other person as well showing ourselves the limits to our own goodness. This probably ties in with the giver/taker part of Harley's stuff and hopefully Karenna will shed additional light on this for us soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pressure!! I can't take it anymore!!!<P>Oh. That's ok. Nevermind. I can do this. Thanks, Sue, for the voice of confidence.<P>I think Dr Harley was making several related points. Taken separately they are confusing, but as a whole they are not incompatible with T&C as described above.<P>First, H is the first to agree that selfishness does destroy relationships. As soon as one person acts uncaring or worse, much that had been built is brought to ashes.<P>Second, if you are waiting for a FAIR balance of caring, kindness, forgiveness, decency or what have you, the marriage is never going to be fixed. Someone has to make a first move in generosity, love and unselfish Giving in order to move towards intimacy. That jibes with T & C saying you have to Give more than seems fair. It isn't comfortable to knowingly be in a one-down position. <P>Harley admits that your Taker won't take it for long without sabotaging something. Thus he stresses the importance of both of you learning to care, give, negotiate and work by POJA. T & C seem to realize that it is asking a lot to have one person doing all the sacrificing to bring the relationship along too. <P>In fact, <B>the collateral damage from living as a Giver for a long time is the whole point of BOUNDARIES!!!</B> When you lovingly define yourself, set your limits and show them to others to see, you are protecting your exhausted Giver for one thing. Not that you are letting the Taker run things either, but you have the self-respect to know that both aspects are you, are valuable in and of themselves, and deserving of your OWN self-respect.<P>Boundaries make possible the ongoing Caring and Protection that must come before Romantic love.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Pressure!! I can't take it anymore!!!<P>We are all a bit self-centered and testy these days. I know I am being a bit self-indulgent and wrapped in self-pity and worry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you Karenna, I do appreciate it a lot. I guess my motivation was three-fold, one, I think it is important for us to glean and use all the tools available to us, two, the comment in your prayer request led me to ask for your participation for out of grief can come good, and thirdly, hmmmmm....I <B>selfishly</B> missed your input! Thank you for sharing! <P>I guess I feel the more we see the common bond in all these resources, the easier it will be to accept responsibility for ourselves in that we cannot deny or rationalize it if everyone is saying the same thing! If I overstepped in asking, please forgive me.

Not at all! Just kidding and trying to lighten things up. Obviously participants here get a bit of ego boost when others directly ask for their opinions. My weakness too. <P>Thank you so much for all your important and insightful work on this thread. It is getting great endorsements on other forums! That is a real compliment. You have a compassionate, service-oriented perspective combined with extensive, deep, in-the-trenches real world experience that is invaluable and unique. We are so blessed to have you!<p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited August 10, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Marriage cannot be succesfuly navigated without our giving more <BR>of ourselves that we are comfortable giving....self-absorbed people <BR>often attempt to live as a single person within marriage thinking theycan <BR>get what is important to them and still pull off the relationship.<P>Results of this type of behavior leaves the spouse feeling like an <BR>object or feeling as though her own thoughts and feelings aren't <BR>valued<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"<I>living as a single person, get what is important to them & hang <BR>onto relationship"......</I> to me, this is the epitome of an <BR>alcoholic. My husband's behavior has caused me untold grief. But, through this <BR>study I am learning now that the agony and grief over <B>his</B> <BR>behavior is my problem, I have no control over his behavior, and his sin is <BR>not my fault nor my problem. It is between God and him. My involvement <BR>is to pray for him. <P>Yes, I admit that David's going off to CA when he knew how much it was <BR>hurting me makes me feel unvalued, unloved, uncared about. I am trying to <BR>resolve this within me. When we talk now, I try to avoid saying <BR>anything about him coming home (though it does slip out sometimes). I have <BR>stated lately when he mentioned that he may be out there another 2 weeks <BR>that I miss him and am anxious for him to come home. I pray and pray <BR>hard that the Lord moves him to homesickness and a desire to come home <BR>right away. On most occasions when he calls, I can tell he has been <BR>drinking, sometimes he is stinking drunk. I'm trying to change my <BR>reaction to this by not making any comment about his state of inebriation, <BR>just talking about what son and I did, etc. I have slipped up and cried a <BR>couple times, though lately, not about his drinking but because I am <BR>disappointed that he has to stay longer. <P>One thing that I have noticed, that I believe is a result of prayer, is <BR>that David's attitude towards me is softer, and he does not cuss as <BR>much. Praise God.<P>The verse in James "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much" keeps coming to mind. Hmmmm.... Need to keep praying don't I.<P>Lord, I am so thankful to You for giving SueB and the other praying wives the wisdom and right words to say in this forum, helping each of us to better understand the biblical principles behind boundaries. Thank You dear Lord, for your unending love. Thank you for providing for our every need during our trials. I praise You Lord, and wish I could thank you more for what You are doing in our lives and marriages. Father, pour out your wisdom upon us, help each of us to better understand Your Word. Give each of us a deeper hunger to know You and Your Word. IJN I pray, AMEN<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Alcoholic's Wife (edited August 10, 2000).]