We are more than willing to discuss each step with you as you identify things to discuss Lindy. As you read things and have questions about what you read, then post.

Dear LindyKay,<P>As long as you don't dare open your mouth or take any action you will not progress. God will not force you to keep His word either. As you study <A HREF="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2PTLD073K5&mscssid=24CC92AX2MQ79LD5KTXGBE0SGT0H0PVA&isbn=0310238498" TARGET=_blank>Boundaries in Marriage</A> keep praying, several times a day, for the COURAGE to do what is right.<P>I'll pray for your courage too.<P>Love,<P>Karenna<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Got some email from a sister and want to do some excerpts from her letter and then follow up with some limit setting steps as we outlined in the beginning of this thread. This is done with her permission.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The worst came at the mall. Maybe I should give you more background. My husband seems to be a hypochondriac yet has only been to the doctor twice in about 4 years. He complains about his body contantly and justifies why he needs the $120 tennis shoes for his back or the $180 electric razor for his thicker than most men's facial hair, or the special dye and perfume free laundry detergent, etc., etc. I don't know how to respond to it, but we're already $3K in debt and he can't stop thinking of new expenses to treat himself to. We rarely get any of them, but to hear about one more expensive "need" stresses me out!!!<P> Back to the mall... He and his brother went their way, I said I would wait in some store. I found a pair of sunglasses for $6 that would be great because I'd lost my other pair (which were $1). He came back and asked if I'd found anything I liked. I said yes and he immediately cut me off and started telling me about all the things he saw he wanted. After about 5 months of hearing about all his wants and needs, I interupted him to tell him about the sunglasses since he'd cut me off when he'd asked me what I'd found in the first place. This enraged him and he loudly stormed in the store for me to get them. I didnt want them now b/c he was causing a scene and I was about to crawl in a hole. We walked back out of the store with him yelling behind me about me being a baby and showing my "[censored]". He seemed to be the ugliest to me when there were others around.<BR> His brother kept walking in such a fashion where I couldn't get beside my husband so then he began jeering at me for walking in front. We went to the food court and he got mad b/c I didn't want the same as them. He knows I hate that restaurant. When I got my food, I turned to see they had gotten a table for two and did not make any room for me. I sat alone at the table behind them. I bowed my head in prayer for the meal blessing and gratitude but also for strength. I silently cried as I picked around at my food. A lady was sitting nearby with her daughter and grandson. She came over and said she's seen me bow my head. She told me I didn't have to tell her what was going on because the Lord did. She wanted my name so she could pray for me. My husband must've turned around curiously, b/c she told him to turn around b/c our conversation didn't pertain to him. I don't know if she knew he was my husband or not at that time. When we went to leave, I again had to follow them. The lady gave me a thumbs up and told me "You can do it!" as I passed by.<P>Next email:<BR>My whole point in writing to you about the<BR>mall incident was to show how he always brings posessiveness up. Anyway, when I explained to him how I get tired of hearing his "needs" and was mad that he'd interupted me to tell me about them, he exlaimed<BR>that he knew why I was mad. He said it was because I thought he and his brother were "looking at tail." I was perplexed. What was that, I asked. He said that I was mad because I thought he and his 15 year old<BR>brother were looking at girls. You see. He never tries to validate my feelings or attempt to see my point. He just sticks me in the role of his father and he as his mother and says I am posessive. I am<BR>sick of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>My response to this sister: I fetl that this situation had multiple scenarios in it and so I divided them up so that she could see how we get stuck in the moment and how sometimes it is hard to figure out where the boundary goes. These were my suggestions and I welcome other input as well. It seems pretty overwhelming when we first try to learn something different. Encourage this sister please.<P><BR><B>Scenario Mall</B><BR><B>Event</B>- Short version- you found something you wanted to buy, H asked if you had found anything and then interupted you when you began to tell him by identifying numerous things he wanted to buy..<BR><B>Response</B>-<BR>1. you responded- to his interuption by interupting him.<BR>2. you felt-hurt, discounted, ignored<BR>3. you thought-you only wanted to spend $6 vs the larger amount of money he wanted to spend. His reaction to it was such that you no longer even wanted the item.<BR>4. you felt- publically humiliated, hurt, angry, embarassed, negated and unimportant.<BR>5. the action you took- Nothing- you stood there and took the abuse, the embarassment<BR><B>Changed Response</B>-<BR>Before even going to the mall, you must decide how much can be spent at the mall. This must be clear from the onset...if he continues on about his physical ailments, then you must calmly state that his ailments concern you too and you hope that he will soon decide to go to the doctor about it, because the home remedies he has already tried are not helping the situation. Again, there must be clarity about the dollar amount available to spend at the mall. If he cannot agree to that, then you must not go to the mall.<P><BR>Once the agreement is set about the dollar amount available, and you go to the bank and retrieve that amount of cash, no credit cards, and he asks what you found, yada, yada...let him ramble a bit, because you already know the limit you have set. When he finishes his list, restate the dollar amount avilailable and that you would like to use $6 of it for this purpose. Is that okay? <P><BR>More than likely, that dollar amount remaining will not be enough to buy what he would like to buy, so he will be angry. You can say to him that you can see that he is disappointed about not having enough money left to buy what he wants, so perhaps you guys can save that amount until there is more money to go with it so he can get what he wants to buy. I would even be tempted to hand him that dollar amount so that he can be responsible for saving that amount of money himself (which you know he won't do, but the responsibility is now off your back, when he brings the topic back up again later) <P><BR>If you know that buying lunch at the food court cuts into that amount of money, offer to make lunch at home so he can save that money so he can get whatever it is that he wanted to buy. If he yells and makes a spectacle of himself in front of others, tell him you are not going to stand there and listen to him and that you willl be leaving the mall. if he continues to be rude. If that means you have to take part of his spending money to take a cab home, so be it. If that means you leave him at the mall to figure out his own way home, so be it. Rudeness and public humiliation is not accpetable behavior and will no longer be tolerated....<P><BR><B>Scenario Mall-II</B><BR><B>Event</B>- Short version- Still feeling hurt, you found that during the walk to the food court there wasn't room for you to walk next to your husband.. H rudely made jeering and embarassing remarks about you walking in front of him..<BR><B>Response</B>-<BR> 1. you responded- continued walking and listened to his comments.<BR> 2. you felt-hurt, and embarassed<BR> 3. you thought- unkind thoughts<BR> 4. the action you took- None<BR><B>Changed Response</B>-<BR>"You are absolutely right honey! Nephew get in front of us, I need to walk next to my husband!"<P><BR>Sometimes doing the unexpected and not giving the usual expected response is the best response.<P><BR><B>Scenario Mall-III</B><BR><B>Event</B>- Short version- H's anger that you didn't chose the same restaurant as he did. He in retaliation choses a table for two where there is no chair or rooom for you.<BR><B>Response</B>-<BR> 1. you responded- went and got your own food, sat at a different table.<BR> 2. you felt-hurt, discounted, ignored, resentful that he chose a restaurant that you didn't like rather than being understanding of your preferences, embarassed by his continued lack of consideration and public humility of you in front of his nephew and others.<BR> 3. you thought-??????<BR> 4. the action you took-prayer! Good one. Were you also able to let go of the earlier hurt, etc. at that time? The hardest part is us asking for forgivenes for our own anger, desire to get even, opening our mouth and saying our own hurtful things, etc. no matter how our H's act. He is accountable to God for his own behavior, you are accountable for yours.<BR><B>Changed Response</B>- Only you know how the rest of the time went after you prayed. That God brought a woman along side of you to pray and to encourage you must have felt wonderful and you must have felt loved and affirmed. Did that affirmation change your attitude which then led to the conversation identified below?<P><BR><B>Scenario Mall-IV</B><BR><B>Event</B>- Short version- Initiates discussion to clarify the situation in attempts at understanding/reconcilliation? He redirects whole conversation into an accusation fest that you are possessive to put you on the defensive and to take the burden of his garbage off his shoulders.<BR><B>Response</B>-<BR> 1. you responded- I suppose by being defensive and denying that you feel possessive, etc. and the argument continued from there, back to the circle.<BR> 2. you felt-angry, unheard, unvalidated<BR> 3. you thought- you are sick of this garbage, you don't want to do this any more. this does not coincide with God's Word so you felt guilty and ashamed.<BR> 4. the action you took-?? what happened? More argument, the silent treatment, he left to be with his friend's to punish you, you just cried. what went on?<BR><B>Changed Response</B>-<BR>You are going to become a broken record. I felt hurt because....restating the limits, the agreement, the humiliation. You are not going to respond to his accusations because they are not pertinent to what you are sharing with him right now. You can tell him that you are willing to discuss that issue at another time, but right now you want to address this one, that you needed to share your feelings about the incident, that you realize that you will not be put in that situation again and that if this situation happened to replay itself the next time you went shopping, this is what you plan to do. end of discussion, no more comments, walk away....it does not matter right now whether he really hears you or not, you are allowing God to change you into the godly woman he desires for you to be.<P><BR>You already are very insightful into how his past affects his today. The man has a fear of abandonment and is trying to control your actions so that he won't be left alone. Of course you know he is pushing you right out the door by his actions, (boy, can I relate in my own relationship) but you must allow him to experience his fear and not experience it for him. Sometimes we are so understanding that we become doormats. God placed us at our husband's side to encourage and come along side of for support, not under his feet to be walked on. Understand that when you first set boundaries on your responses to him, he may increase his garbage in order for you to change back and continue to allow him not to experience the pain of his own abandonment issues.<P><BR>Father, thank you for the boldness of this sister to seek out ways to set boundaries on herself just as you set boundaries. Thank you for her willingness to be vulnerable and to look at herself and her responses so that she is pliable for the changes you will make in her. Father, give us wisdom in sifting through these events and in how we would best encourage this sister. Let her feel comforted that she is not alone with these difficulties and that we strive to develop the characteristics that you display in our own lives. Let her expereince your peace today, let her mind be cleared of anything that would take her away from the goal of setting healthy boundaries. <P><BR>And Father, we pray for her H today, that he begins to hunger for the one true source of fulfillment, to recognize that he is never abandoned by you. Let him experience the consequences of his actions in such a way, that he must cry out to you for help. Soften his heart, IJN, Amen.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited January 25, 2001).]

Will reading boundaries help with being able to talk to my husband about his drinking? I already know that he will not give up his drinking for me. So I try just to not let it bother me, I just try not to think about it. Everyone tells me that his drinking is really bothering me, I can't tell if it is or not. I know that when he doesn't have a drink he is very mean, I don't know if that is how he will act when he is not drinking? If it is then I don't like the way he is. Maybe he will find out he doesn't care for me if he stops drinking. It really hits home when I think that he would rather drink than have me. How can I tell if his drinking is bothering me? Does his drinking change his personality? When he doesn't drink he acts like he really doesn't care about us.

lindykay,<P>Found myelf a bit frustrated reading your post again and have had to think about it all day. Since I am working on the honesty thing, I had to go back and reread your posts.<P>Okay, here are some answers to your questions.<P>No, I do not think you should talk to your husband about his drinking.<P>Unless you are willing to take some action and do some work on yourself and learn about you, reading this book is a waste of your time.<P>It does not matter what your friends or counselors or even those of us at the forum think. What matters is what you think and if you don't know what you think, you owe it to yourself to find out.<P>What is best for your children? What kind of things do you want them to learn about how people hurt each other? <P>God bless you lindykay.

SueB,<BR>That was an awesome response to the shopping mall tale. I think about the way my H treats me and it seems so tame compared to tales I read in these forums. I think about the way my spirit withered into dust over the years at the hands of my circumstances. I try to picture myself in some of the stories here and wonder if tissue paper has more fiber than I. I have nothing to add to the shopping mall scenario. <P>To lindykay, take some deep breaths! You're moving in the right direction by seeking help here in these forums. I see a frantic frenzy of frazzled nerves in your posts. And rightly so. You're in a difficult situation. Perhaps an example my counsellor explained to me will help you. <P>In my first visit, my counsellor drew a straight line across a whiteboard. She said people often picture their lives as a line, starting with one end and moving toward the other. Then she drew a circle on the line. Often in life, we get off the track and start going in a circle where we get stuck. The purpose of counselling is to identify the sticking points and break out of the unproductive cycle. <P>The next image that comes to mind is that scene in Christmas Vacation when Chevy Chase plugs in his decorating extravaganza. The next shot is his electric meter spinning around at lightening speed. LK, you seem to be stuck in a bad cycle and travelling at record breaking speeds. I worry that you'll deplete all your resources with such stress. Nothing will be fixed overnight. It will take time to become an informed MB consumer. Reading through all the pages of this thread is a good place to start. <P>I'm a slow learner and was never a rock of Gibralter to begin with. I had things in my marriage I couldn't address at the beginning. You will see things more clearly when you're ready. In the meantime, try just one small thing tomorrow that's different from today.

**edit** I wasn't quite sure where to put this link, but decided since we are talking about boundaries on ourselves, this might fit here. I tremendously appreciated her definition of respect and examples of what that looks like. <P>It was interesting as I actually read some of Chapter 1 and 2 to my H and asked him if it fit for him and he said yes and then explained some... I found myself doing some of those exact disrespect examples all day and would catch myself and apologize to him.<P>Another interesting note. Christian friends invited us over for dinner and cards on Saturday. When the wife asked how we were doing, I decided to be honest in front of everyone and say that we were struggling and found it difficult to find others to talk with about it in line with encouraging, etc., the downfalls of our present growth group in this area, etc. Ususally my H considers anything of this sort a LB, but I really am working on this honesty thing. <P>Surprisingly enough, he even told them that we were seeing Pastor spearately for counseling. The friend H provided info that he has a men's accountability group that meets the same night my women's bible group meets. I so wanted to push my H to attend but in remembering the "respect" stuff and POPW, I kept quiet and am trusting God to lead my H.<P>I will be leaving for my son's home on the 1st. You all can reach me at this eramhoff@mail.com address. A friend's son is gettng married this weekend and she called me to make sure I knew I was invited to the wedding. Her son is just down the road from my son and he has been talking much with my son. Pray that God uses him in a mighty way so that my son will make that decision for Christ.<P>I am so excited about this trip! I went to my H and told him that I understood that he was feeling all kinds of anxieties with me going to WA, but that I really needed to do this and that I wanted him to know that I loved him and that I was coming back and that I appreciated him allowing me to go on this trip even though it was hard for him....He said "Who are you and what did you do with my wife?" I told him he didn't like that woman anyway... <P>Some other things happened in the evening and twice more he made the same comment, so it is kind of neat that just reading a couple of chapters of this book and taking it seriously has made that kind of difference in a couple of days. There is a workshop in our area in April and I am going with my H's blessing.<P>Hugs to you all.

Hi there everyone. I came across this link tonight and thought that you girls can give me some help. First of all I am a christian gal and I have read everything in the bible about marriage, wives, husbands etc... I am also happy with myself and know exactly what I want but I still have the heart ache of worring about my husband hurting himself. Just recently he has left our house and moved in with frinds in which have the same addictions that he does. I am doing pretty well because I have faced the fact that I can not MAKE him do anything that he doesn't want to do. He says he left because he couldn't take it anymore. He says we never have any money but he is putting less and less in the bank and I know what he is spending it on. I know that the reason he left is because he can't take care of the family and his addiction too. He has choosen his addiction over his family and I know that he has no control over this. I don't call or go see him, nor does he me. I am trying to ride it out and let him have time to....I don't know, hit bottom I guess. I still worry about him everyday but I know I can't put me and my kids on hold. I want him to come home and I would have never left him but now that he is gone I want him to make some changes before he comes back. Really I don't even know if he will ever even want to come back anyway. Yall have given alot of good advice but it seems to be for couples that are still together. Can yall help me?

Up to the top for someone special.<BR>

^ back to the top

I haven't gotten through this whole thread yet, but am in awe at the loving and godly support here with this issue (one that I struggle with). I was going to buy this book last month, but never got around to it. <P>I was led to this thread from a different board here at MB when this subject came up!<P>God Bless!<BR><><

Up to the top for my friend Paul.<P>Prayers for Paul<P>Father, I pray Lord that you will help calm Paul's heart, and help him understand that you have not forgotten or forsaken him. Let him know that you will help him through. <P>Lord, He loves you, and he loves his wife and is caught between love and wisdom. Please give him an extra dose of faith, strength and wisdom, in Jesus Name.<P>Amen

Bumped for Mostlyhurt