My H desperately wants to send the OW a birthday card next week. We are 3 months into withdrawal, and he's not yet withdrawing!! I tried to approach it from the standpoint of what is the intent, it may hurt her because she won't know what to think, and I mentioned my feelings even though I know they don't matter. He just seemed frustrated and angry and felt I was telling him what to do and that he is wrong. I tried to reinforce that I can't tell him what to do, my thoughts are only for what is best for our marriage. He felt I was being hypocritical because I mentioned her feelings when I don't give a d$#mn about her. This is true, but I felt it might impact him.<P>I'm at a loss. I can't help but think if it's so important then why do you say that you want to work on us?

jj:<P>I'm not a betrayer... but... I'd like to give you my encouragement...<P>Your H should <B>not</B> send anything to the OW!<P>Just a few reminders from <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to the betrayed spouse. (page 55 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Without total separation, marital recovery is almost impossible. (page 56 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Have you and your H written a letter to OW to let her know that the relationship is over (like the letter on page 58-59 of SAA)? That is the first signal of H's acceptance to really withdraw from OW. (Much better than a BD card!)<P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

Remember that your H is is an addiction and that no matter what YOU say, he will take as you being the BAD person here. Sometimes it is best to use tough love. NO CONTACT!

I am a former betrayer and the answer is NO. If he is intent on getting over her, he MUST NOT have any personal contact, none. The loss of the friendship is the price you pay for having stepped over the line!<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

jenn,<P>It just doesn't sound to me like your husband is really truly committed to the idea of making your marriage work. Hope you don't get too discouraged by this, but I think right now he's just giving lip-service to the marriage so he doesn't come out like a bad-guy. My gut feeling is he's just sticking it out and waiting for <B>you</B> to leave. Yuck... I hated saying that... sorry! Have him read my reply -- see what he says. I hope I'm wrong.<P>I know you're in Plan A and you don't want to do any love-busters, but there has to be a limit as to what you will put up with! Sending the OW a birthday card is bad! It hurts your feelings and it sends all kinds of signals that he just isn't trying.<P>Tell him to go ahead and send the card, but if he does, it's just one more thing that hurts you and therefore makes the rebuilding process all that more difficult. Say to him that this is totally <B>his</B> choice to make matters worse. You have nothing to do with it. Does he really think there's nothing wrong with sending her a birthday card? Is he still in high-school?<P>Contact is contact. Whatever it is. He agreed to no contact. I'm sitting here getting kinda frustrated with your husband (just like you are, I know)!<P>take care,<BR>--andy

I will try to avoid my typical book-post and also I should warn you that I am not as patient and forgiving as the others here. For me, it was spinelessness that allowed me to continually justify my affair and as I rebel against the 'old me' if find myself intolerant in certain aspects. <BR>I can imagine what's going through his head, and would probably guess that his intentions regarding the card are a lot less than you might attribute to them. <BR>Nonetheless, it's not really the point is it? My OW was a client. A very influential client who could have brought me enough business to keep my reno business going indefinately. Hell, the business is so new that I could actually say that her help alone would have launched it to success - (80% of my work this summer came from her referals). She and I at one point even agreed to stop the affair before things got out of hand and agreed that we would maintain a 'friendship' on a business level. LOL LOL LOL! <BR>The truth is all that was lost the minute, hell, the second this all started. <BR>I made a commitment to do anything I could to 'keep' my wife- to save our marriage. (And you know what? It hasn't been one hell of a great marriage.) <BR>'No Contact' was one of those things. This was before we came to this board so you can see that it seems to be a standard theme. There are innumerable reasons why there should be no contact, and they all boil down to a few simple concepts.<BR>One of which is commitment. (this is my 'key-word')<BR>Have him read this post, or tell him straight out that: If he really wants your marriage to work, all his thoughts and actions should reflect his commitment to your marriage. <BR>Send a card, even if he doesn't even sign it indicates that his thoughts are going out to her. <BR>He knows that would hurt you. And if he is willing to hurt you That would indicate, to me, a lack of commitment. <BR>As you two explore what has happened and why, there will be plenty of pain. For both of you. If you are committed to honesty, this pain will be unavoidable, because you are going to have to face certain things head on.<BR>The kind of pain HE would cause YOU by sending this card is not unavoidable. It is volontary. That sucks.<BR>It's a Lovebuster.<BR>And no matter how small, it displays a lack of commitment to put you first.<BR>He (maybe even you too) may feel that your pain is irrational. And that to sacrifice a 'friendship' or a 'friendly work relationship' over a card is unreasonable. Maybe so; if you remove the emotional impact of an affair.<BR>But that would be kind of silly wouldn't it? (not that we haven't all become confused before - how many betrayed's out there have already logically justified the betrayal?)<BR>Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought here...<BR>Ok, lemmee try to sum this up. Commitment means making certain sacrifices. There will little ones and big ones and sometimes the little ones for the husbands are the big ones for the wives and vice versa. Commitment means taking them ALL seriously because they are profound statemenst of your love and dedication. <BR>It means realizing the there have got to be new standards of personal conduct established. (For both Betrayer and Betrayed, of course).<BR>And you know what? When a betrayer fully REALIZES how badly he has hurt the one he loves, and sufficiently restructures his character throught the pain of his shame, he comes out like a butterfly. Not right away, naturally, but over time.<BR>The rewards are profoundly immense. <BR>I personally can attest, for anyone out there still 'on the fence' that not only am I, through my commitment, actually saving my marriage (Dylan, also committed, is doing the same) and helping my wife (whom I have horribly wronged) deal with this trauma, but I am finding that I like the person who I am becoming. It feels good.<BR>It feels like my whole life is changing on a profoundly fundemental level.<BR>I'm enjoying my marriage.<BR>I want to be home.<BR>I don't feel like escaping anymore.<BR>I have the stregnth and desire to do the things that need to be need to be done.<BR>Without the commitment, I would still be unclear.<BR>ttfn,<BR>Deut<BR>ps, I try to be careful with spelling, but generally I make a specific point of not re-reading my posts, so please excuse the errors.<BR>ttfn

What everyone else says....NO CONTACT! I hope that your H will do the right thing. Good luck...

My two cents worth: NO CONTACT. NO CONTACT. NO CONTACT. Be strong and stand up for what you believe is right.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Just a little note to Deut -- I'm very happy you've come to the forum!! You're post was very insightful and very informative. I really like what you had to say, and I completely agree (my post was roughly the same as yours, 'cept shorter... you gotta work on that "book-like" aspect of your posts... LOL!)<P>Anyway, keep up the good work. It's good to have another male betrayer around that can answer some of these posts, especially with the passion and fervor of your posts. Lately I've felt like I'm shouldering the burden all alone here! <P>--andy

I agree with everyone that HE SHOULD NOT SEND THE CARD. I sent a C.D. and then a letter over the course of a few months after I had ended my affair over the phone(two years ago). Why? I think because after I had ended it on the phone, I decided I really did not want to end it. I missed the OM and didn't want to give him up. It is the nature of the addiction. I wanted it back again. Finally I stuck to my guns because I realized that there is NOTHING that we could say to each other that would help. It was OVER, it had to be OVER...we could not be friends.....he had to be DEAD to me.<P>It is very hard, but your husband HAS TO LET HER GO. He just does not want to really let her go right now and wants to send a little message to her. So, what if she responds? What if she calls? What if he wants to send an "I'm thinking about your card."? What if she gets the card and thinks...."He misses me too." He is still in withdrawal and will be for a while but trying to connect doesn't help.

Hi All,<P>My H isn't home from work yet so we haven't talked more about it. But, part of me is thinking that if he has to do what he feels he has to do, be prepared to walk out. I have felt TOO MUCH disrespect and inconsideration for many months now. <P>His commitment to "us" right now is to "try", so not the type of commitment many of you are probably thinking of. I don't want to be a doormat, but I also think that during withdrawal aren't your feelings mostly with the OP still? I don't want to end our marriage over this, but I can't just stand by passively and let things like this take place without putting up a fight for what I desire and know is right. My greatest hope is that eventually he'll make it through withdrawal and see these things clearly. Am I dreaming? Am I ignorant? Am I crazy? (well, I know that one is true after all of this) Am I wanting something that isn't healthy to want? I'm soooo confused and sad right now.<P>I will hang in there as best I can.<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Jenn,<P>Geez, I'm sorry you're feeling so sad right now! I wish I could tell you something that would make you feel better.<P>I've been thinking about my responses yesterday, and maybe I'm being a little hard on your husband... It's good that he's home (not with her) and it's good that he's trying.<P>I guess the thing that frustrates me is his insensitivity towards your feelings. I just don't get that. It seems weird to me that he would think you'd be okay with him sending the OW a b-day card. Yes, during withdrawal his feelings WILL be mostly about the OW, but he seems to be taking advantage of that, and making that his excuse... "Hey, don't get mad at me for thinking about the OW! I'm in withdrawal! It's okay for me to do that! You have to let me!"... <P>Anyway... just my take. I think he will eventually come out of it if he follows the NO CONTACT rule.<P>--andy

Hey Andy,<P>Thanks for your input. I thought your first response seemed kind of stern coming from you. But my H read the whole thing and can agree with everything you all say, but still isn't sure what he'll do. I'm sure you'll be hearing from me.<P>Jenn<BR><P>------------------<BR>

Andy,<P>My husband decided it would not accomplish anything to send the OW a birthday card! I told him that I greatly appreciate the sacrifice. He said he just had it in his mind that he would do it and that he actually thought he would be with her by now.<P>Your post about the OW's e-mail made us think as well. That type of communication just seems to muddle things up and not accomplish anything. Matt says the thing that is the most difficult for him through withdrawal is not knowing if the OW has moved on or is waiting because there isn't much finality. This must prolong some of the feelings. I sure hope you are doing OK with the result of her communication.<P>Matt seems to be understanding my feelings better lately. He even tells me now that there isn't much reason to leave home, and he has written in his log about the risks of going with the OW. He says the only risk he sees with us is falling back into old patterns of focusing mostly on the kids and not expressing emotions, both things we have changed quite a bit recently.<P>It does give me hope to hear these things. He said that right now one hard thing is that after he and I spend a day together, he feels a type of rebound in his thoughts of her. They are more frequent and more intense for him and he is frustrated with why this happens. Sound familiar at all?<P>Hang in there!<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

Andy,<P>My husband decided it would not accomplish anything to send the OW a birthday card! I told him that I greatly appreciate the sacrifice. He said he just had it in his mind that he would do it and that he actually thought he would be with her by now.<P>Your post about the OW's e-mail made us think as well. That type of communication just seems to muddle things up and not accomplish anything. Matt says the thing that is the most difficult for him through withdrawal is not knowing if the OW has moved on or is waiting because there isn't much finality. This must prolong some of the feelings. I sure hope you are doing OK with the result of her communication.<P>Matt seems to be understanding my feelings better lately. He even tells me now that there isn't much reason to leave home, and he has written in his log about the risks of going with the OW. He says the only risk he sees with us is falling back into old patterns of focusing mostly on the kids and not expressing emotions, both things we have changed quite a bit recently.<P>It does give me hope to hear these things. He said that right now one hard thing is that after he and I spend a day together, he feels a type of rebound in his thoughts of her. They are more frequent and more intense for him and he is frustrated with why this happens. Sound familiar at all?<P>Hang in there!<P>Jenn<P>------------------<BR>

One day the kids will grow up and move out. In the end, all you will have are each other. While being a good parent is fundementally important, you should not be sacrificing or neglecting your marriage for it. keep the whole picture in mind.<BR>deut