One of our counselors asked that question of us.....What is it? "SILENCE"<P>I am sorry to come to this forum with a burden that should be shared on one of the other boards but I really don't know many on the other boards and I guess I just feel this is the place for me. So, rather then go to Questions or Recovery I am just seeking some input from others here.<P>This has been a really bad wknd. One that makes me think that we are falling back into old patterns. There are so many threads to this unraveling piece of cloth that I don't really know where to begin. I just feel sometimes like I am the only one in this marriage who is trying to communicate. The silence sometimes is deafening only to be broken by shouts of frustration.<P>I am perceived as the enemy! That is how it was before D-day as I was the scapegoat, the one who was blamed for everything so to keep me off balance and not discover the truth of the affair. Now, I am the bad guy again. I have been trying so hard to develop good forms of communication so when we have a disagreement we can "fight fair". His way is to just stuff. He would rather spend days on end not talking then try and discuss our way through. In fact discussion is a misnomer for it turns immediately into anger.<P>I have done everything I can to show him forgiveness, support him and be the kind of wife he needs. Instead he sees me as manipulative, vindictive and holier then thou. Last night I told him he may as well just divorce me for I will never make him happy. I know that was wrong, but that is how I feel. I can't live with him and I can't live without him.<P>I can't go to my friends or my Pastor for I know I have wearied them. Heck, I am weary too. This Thursday is the anniversary of D-day, how timely.<P>We have been to countless counselors and they all go off on their tangents and never teach us the fine art of communication. We have read books and think oh ya, finally we have some tools for communication and then the first fight comes and we're back to square one.<P>Now my h has physical problems which are affecting our relationship. I will not go into this but the Dr's can't help. I know his ego is on the line but I have been unable to help him here either.<P>I feel really hopeless. I just can't see spending the rest of our lives this way. We are sleeping in seperate rooms and the air is like ice. If this was just an argument I wouldn't be so concerned but its like I said, a pattern.<P>El Roi (the God Who really sees), again I come to You for help. <P>Thanks for listening, Taj<P>One other thought! He has me on this pedastal usually which I don't belong on. Even my user name Taj is one he gave me(Tajmahal-tower of strength). My ability to forgive him and remain true to my faith seems to be like "salt in the wound" and he feels even more unworthy. I can't make him see who he is in God's eyes, and God can't make him if he doesn't want to believe it. I really think that is where all of this leads, to his sence of worthlessness. <p>[This message has been edited by Taj (edited December 11, 2000).]

My sister, so sorry that you are experiencing this after so much triumph.<P>Reading a book on feelings and one of the things he notes is this:<P>Anxiety is the fear or hurt or loss.<BR>Hurt or loss leads to anger.<BR>Anger held in leads to guilt.<BR>Guilt, unrelieved, leads to depression.<P>He further breaks it down in multi-faceted categories, but the overall question is to ask ourselves what we are afraid of losing?<P>Your description of your beloved sounds so much like mine in his silent stage. My husband doesn't want to accept responsibility for his behavior so the lashing out is to put the responsibility somewhere else. That type of anger doesn't relieve the pain.<P>He too says I am holier than thou, etc. I really have sought God to reveal to me any instances of this type of behavior on my part. My only thought is that I so much want my huisband to own his behavior so that we can get beyond this to grow closer to each ohter and Him, that I may be coming across wrongly and my H perceives it as accusing. He does a good job of that by himself internally I think and doesn't need my help. <P>I guess you have to ask yourself if that wonderful trip you wrote us about a while back was real or not. I have started prefacing my comments by saying I want to learn how to talk to my husband without him feeling like I am attacking him and that I need his help to let me know when I do hit a button for him. Some days this works. This weekend it didn't. I have had to go back to the Lord to have Him show me the progress we have made thus far because I was ready to walk out the door.<P>Father, reveal yourself to Taj in a special way today, draw hjer close to you and let her feel your presense in a mighty way. Draw her hubby too Father, continue to call his name, send your gentle whisper across his heart and let it steep inside. Wipe away any hardness and stir his heart to a hunger and thirst that he might be quenched. Father, you are the mighty judge. Help M to be able to leave the judging to you and to be gentle with himself. Help him to give himself permission to forgive himself and be free of the bondage of guilt that binds him to the past. Free him today Father and let him experience the peace that surpasses all understanding. IJN, Amen.

Deleted by computergal.<P><p>[This message has been edited by computergal (edited January 26, 2001).]

SueB,<P>Thanks for responding so quickly, the prayer was received as a drink of water to a thirsty traveler. <P>I wonder as well about the wonderful trip we took on our anniversary, for the trouble began the week following. I thought at first it was one of those valleys following a mountaintop experience, so I didn't give it too much thought, but now it is 4wks since any intimacy and I am at a loss.<P>My mind wants to wander and drum up former scenarios.......I won't go there!<P>Computergal,<P>Thank you as well for your insightful response. I acknowledge that I am not always the most tactful person....in fact I am known to be very opinionated at times and outspoken, but believe me, I have worked very hard on building my husband up and being as supportive as one could be. I virtually have been devoting all of myself for several years to meeting his needs. I consider him very high maintanence and have given up my career for all intents and purposes.<P>The last counselor we saw identified my husband as being shame based. He grew up very poor and basically was considered by schoolmates etc as "poor white trash". He truly sees himself as that to this day. Now mind you, he has a accomplished much in his life and has the ability to do so much more. People like him and he is a great friend to anyone he meets. He truly loves God and desires to serve Him. <P>My question is, "How long does one keep supporting the arms of another?" I feel I have done that for so long and to be only seen as the enemy makes my efforts look empty.<P>I would appreciate anything you feel would be helpful via e-mail.<P>Blessings, Taj

Taj,<BR>I have dealt with this exact thing. I don't know that I can help, but I have done lots of reading and maybe I have some information that will be helpful for you to understand and deal with it. I'm not sure you want to do this on the MB board, but if you are interested e-mail me at:<P> Singer412@hotmail.com <P>I'd love to dialogue with you. Until then know I am praying for you.

Hi Taj. I'm so sorry to read about your frustration. I will keep you in my prayers. I can understand your frustration at the lack of communication as that has always been an issue in my marriage. Some days I feel like I am at the end of my rope, nothing has been resolved, and what's the point anymore..... then the Lord steps in and gently reminds me that He is in control and I must get out of His way, my job is to pray and be obedient to His word. He reminds me that I promised Him that I would pray for this man every day for the rest of my life and I must bind the enemy each and every day to keep him out of my marriage and home. <P>Hw, if you haven't already, maybe you could post some of the stuff you sent me on discouragement. That really, really helped me see how the enemy is using it to drag me down. <P>Most gracious Father, I come before You tonight asking for your help in Taj's marriage. Lord, you know the complete situation, and want even more than we do for their marriage to be full of love, intimate communication, and a sense of oneness with You. Thank You Lord for hearing our prayers. I praise You Lord and give all glory for the renewed love and commitment in Taj's marriage, thank You so much Lord. Father, You are almighty, the King of all. You are the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and we can put all our faith and trust in You knowing that with You nothing is impossible. Lord, we thank You for the promise of eternal love from You. We thank You for the promise that "the two shall become one". Father I pray that Taj's husband's heart is softened, and he will be able to hear your word. Speak to him please Lord, assuring him of Your deep love no matter what. In Jesus' name I pray, AMEN <P>

Hey Taj, No fighting allowed!! Calm yourself down and never let the reptilian emotional brain run the program. Think and pray your way through his attacks.<P>My H tried that "holier-than-thou" attack on me too, but it didn't fit so he gave it up after the second try. Haven't heard it more than once all year .<P>True humility and love are not enough. An attacking H will create demons where there are none. Even if this is entirely a strawman, the response that worked for me should still help de-escalate the fight.<P>Just eat dirt. Grovel. Confess your sins, confess your every weakness to your H right then and there in the heat of his fight in the kitchen pantry or garage. Confess and repent of Pride. Do it loudly or tearfully. Add plenty of apologies and explain how you are learning to do better. Once you put yourself into confession/repentance mode it will not feel so artificial. Or maybe it is only me with the extralarge burden of pride for whom it feels artificial . <P>Do be careful not to confess something you did not actually commit or he will use it against you later if not immediately. When he then uses your confessions against you as a weapon go right back into grovelling and confessing. After a while this gets old for him too. He will see he can't get your goat with this one.<P>Has he been introduced to the concept of POJA? Has he bought into the idea of improving his marriage? Does he resent you for causing his loss of the OW? I don't really remember your story... Do you know why he doesn't like you?<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Dear Taj,<P>I will be seeing a counsellor next week about the issues, including guilt and 'haywire' physical, etc. and will write when I get some answers. I can understand how certain days are so unpsetting. It is the same for me as my anniversary is in a few days' time and I am dreading all the reminders.<P>My pastor visited last night. It has been a few months since he last visited. He said he came with the message:<P>"God wants to lead you to the promised land. He wants to give you good things and blessings. He wants you to heal yourselves of all hurts, unforgiveness, anger, jealousies, worthlessness, guilt and all the pain, so that you can begin to receive blessings. God cannot give you blessings if you stop Him and if that is stopped the blessings cannot flow from you to your child. Do not let your baby be broken."<P>He also talked about the Israelis in Egypt and how God delivered them from 400 years of slavery for them to only think about Egypt and become ungrateful. They were in the wilderness for 40 years before the next generation get to see the promised land. The pastor wanted us to see the promised land now and not forgo the good that God has for each of us.<P>My pastor did say that the devil has taken away, and had a foothold in our marriage. It is up to us to pray for God to banish these satanic attacks as we seek to recover and heal. <P>He also said that we had to heal so that we can be testimonies that God can heal broken marriages so that we can bear fruits.<P>Taj,<BR>I will pray that God minister to you and your H, and that he will send your H a dream or a person to lead him to full understanding of God's grace and the magnitude of His forgiveness.<P>God help you<BR>Blessings<BR>take care<BR>from weep<BR><p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 12, 2000).]

Hi, Taj.<P>No advice, just prayers,<P>love, lizzie

Oh, Taj,<BR> I hear and feel what you are saying, my marriage is very similiar, the difference is he is divorcing me because I can't make him happy. I will lift you up in my prayers tonight, your post have lifted me so many times. I am sorry this is happening to you, seems so unfair since you tried so hard......<BR>that hurts doesn't it? keep praying and so will I

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example."<P>- Mark Twain (1835-1910), U.S. author<P>Could this be part of the "problem"? When Satan has a stronghold and they reject every opportunity and gift of God and wife, there isn't anything you or God can do about it. God will not save a man in spite of his ongoing rebellion, and no wife has the power to overwhelm her husbands choices. HE has to consciously decide.

Where do I start my friends? Such good advice and healing prayers.<P>Karenna, Humility! You have the handle on my need. He doesn't like me because he sees me as spiritually superior. Maybe I emit that to him without trying. Groveling.....<BR>I guess I though I had already done that, but you show me that it is necessary whenever pride rears its ugly head. I will try better, now that I know better. Thanks <P>Aw, weep, carol, Lizzie,<P>Your prayers for me are priceless. I covet them and need them so desperately for I know you pray with experience and wisdom. Thanks<P>Now an update! I am beginning to back off and see that he is needing so much more then I am giving. I treat him as if he is healed. He Is Not! He is in the process yes, but complete.....only in the eyes of God.<P>It is quiet around here but calm. I will begin again to treat him as the fragile man he is. Physically he is strong, beyond that he is a Becomer!<P>I cannot tell you how blessed I have been the last several days with the support and encouragement I have received on this forum. I truly believe the individuals who have ministered to my need have been led of the Lord with great wisdom. I feel I have new direction which has been confirmed in several ways from different people. God is so good to me.<P>I feel as if a mirror has been placed to show me what I am reflecting. I am reflecting the Lord I know for he lives within me, but I am reflecting only confusion to my h when I allow my needs to come before his. Again, I will do better, because I now know better. <P>Blessings, Taj

I don't post very often, but I have received much insight and comfort from you Taj as I have lurked on different boards. I feel your pain and uncertainty. Lean on God - He will not desert you. You are in my prayers.

I can really relate to your strife, Taj. My marriage is like a strictly monitored bulletin board. Computers, gardening, politics and weather are the only safe topics. When you say "bad guy", are you trying to communicate about a touchy subject that NEEDS discussing and he's responding with LBs, anger, stonewalling, etc? That's what it means in my household. My H claims to be "henpecked" (his definition is anything requested more than once). I'm always "after him" for something. <P>Even though I firmly believe that my H doesn't know the meaining of the word henpecked, I've backed off completely. I expect nothing from him. I don't ask for a single thing. I got tired of being the "bad guy" and decided to try silence for a while. I've started counselling and read many books over the last month. I'm formulating a plan for moving out. hmmm... sorta sounds like an emotional boot camp, doesn't it?<P>A great piece of advice from Divorce Busters is to try something different when your current efforts are failing. Unbelievably, he's been on good behavior. But even so, I look at the exercise my counsellor had me do in the first session. Make a list of rewards you receive from your marriage. Then make a list of consequences. The consequences are the "price" you're paying for the rewards. Give it a try and see what you come up with. Even if you see your marriage as a total shambles, taking a fresh look at it can help. For me, a very long bout of denial ended recently. It felt like a ton of bricks came down on me. Then, things started looking rosier, even though my circumstances are just as bleak today as they were a month ago. <P>Read some books, and put your own growth before anything else. Even in my fourth week of "mentally refraining from the world", I think this work is too time consuming, it doesn't work fast enough, and it's somehow frivolous to change priorities in a way that puts me first. Taj, I hope you're in better shape than I am and that you can achieve improvements without some of the drastic measures I'm contemplating. Some of the things you mentioned were just so familiar, and I hope that sharing some things I've tried might help you or someone else here.

gatorgirl,<P>Thank you for your prayers, it is such a blessing to know there are those who will bring my situation before the throne of God. I am encouraged if anything I have posted before has been a help to you. I have stayed with the forum for over a year now to do just that. I am finding that I as well still need the strength this forum brings.<P>lonesome heart,<P>I read everything very carefully that is posted to me. I have learned that help comes in unusual places and especially from others experiences. When someone related to your circumstances it is for a reason and I appreciate your taking the time to post to me. Your advice on trying something different is sound.....in fact I have gotten that advice from several other places and yours is a confirmation that change is in need.<P>I know that God is in control and I also know that He is continuing His work of grace in my life as well as my h's. I am confronted by my lack of love in the biblical sense. Love never fails! If I am failing at this recovery phase of my marriage then I must renew my love as God requires. <P>This woman is still needing to learn and relearn and abide in the Vine. [John 15]<P>

Prayer Alert Sisters. Got a quick email from Taj that she is unable to connect via server problems but is having a tough day. Lift her up Now!<P>Father God, mighty warrior, our protector and strength, we come in Jesus's name to lift our sister to You for you are the comforter and healer of everything. Father, you see the battle in this home, you see the hurt. Father break the chains of bondage, let not the past retie all that You have already achieved in healing this marriage.<P>Let this tribulation be a breakthrough that reduces one more demon from the past. In the season of the birth, where so many past events come to haunt us and redirect us from the whole reason for the Season, we ask that you remove the evil that haunts and you bring refreshing new awareness To Taj and M, so that they not miss the opportunity to draw closer to each other and to You.<P>Father, you are the one in control at all times. Nothing is hidden from your sight. You go before and behind us. Let Taj feel the cushion you place around her and help her to unhook right now, this minute from wantng to control any part of what is going on with her husband. Father, lead him to understand that his depression and guilt affects his body in many ways and it is this revelation that will bring him peace if he will bring it to the cross. Hold him tightly Father, draw him near, hisper softly and unfreeze his protected hurting heart. Meet him where he is Father right now. Holy Spirit, encourage him to surrender, help him to realize that he does not have to cary burdens by himself.<P>Free Taj Father from the need to control, to have the freedom to allow her H to travel down this path by himself, that she can be loving and respectful in spite of the choices he makes and that she does not have to go down with him. Father, help her to release the perception of "high maintenance" and to allow her husband to experience the consequences of his choices, that her love for him can include giving him the freedom to fail.<P>Father, breathe your peace on this couple now. We give yu the praise and glory. Amen.

Dear Taj,<BR>This is the first I have been online for a few days so I am going to pray now for you dear sister.<P>Lord, thank You for allowing us the opportunity to pray for our dear sister Taj and her husband. Lord I lift them both up to you, asking for a great infilling of the Holy Spirit. Father, please guide Taj and her husband in each thought, word, and action. Order their steps and direct their paths Lord. Father, You are almighty and only You are worthy of all our praise. Lord, I pray that You will show Taj's husband in a mighty way that You don't make junk and he is so greatly loved and wanted by You. Father, please be ever so close to Taj and help her to guard her mouth and tongue to Keep her soul from troubles. Proverbs 21:23 Thank You Lord for your promises in Your Word. Lord, you are our Savior, the great One that we can come to and lean on in times of stress. In Jesus' name I ask these things and pray, AMEN.

I want to thank everyone for their prayers and especially for SueB for alerting everyone. I was almost in a panic because I couldn't get online! I did find out how much I still rely upon this forum for moral support. We have established a relationship and we are rather like family in many ways. I was so thankful I could remember SueB's email address.<P>Things are still rather strained. I don't know what we are going through but it seems to be another attitude adjustment on my part. I can't say I weathered the beginning of this storm very well. It is very difficult for me to be silent and it seems that is exactly what he wants.....no questions, no opinions, and especially no comments. Somehow I have made my h to feel like I "rule the roost". So, I will tuck my tail under and just SUAP like we learned from POPW in the beginnings.<P>I am also looking into gainful employment again. Had an interview today which hopefully will afford me a teaching opportunity in nursing. I will trust the Lord for the outcome of that. Sometimes I feel as if I am too dependent on my h and if anything should happen I would be flat on my b**t! I thought my giving up my career 4 years ago was for the best but maybe now it is time to get back in life. I have tried several times before but it has never worked out. Hopefully this time it will.<P>I have alot of anxiety at this point and also confusion. I am not sure like I said what is happening in our relationship. There seems to be a wall which he is building with some sort of plan in mind. Maybe he feels he is trying to gain more control after all this time, I am not sure!<P>Sorry for my rambling but that is the kind of situation I am facing. It would seem that sometimes the road map is very vague and this is one of those times.<P>Thought by now it would be rosy, guess I have more to learn.<P>Blessings, Taj<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Thought by now it would be rosy, guess I have more to learn.</B><P>MT 21:6 The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. [7] They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them. [8] A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. [9] The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,<P> "Hosanna to the Son of David!"<P> "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"*<P> "Hosanna* in the highest!"<P> MT 27:23 "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.<BR> But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>All in the matter of a week things went from rosy to chaotic. As His life went according to plan, sometimes I must remind myself that mine also goes according to plan. In that week's time he was betrayed, his friends couldn't even stay awake to pray with him, another denies that he even knew him and those who shouted out Hosanna in the highest were now shouting crucify. <P>It is these thoughts that give me courage to go one more day, knowing that the Lord experienced such things to be able to relate to me in my own hurt and dispair. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1Cor 1:5 For in him you have been enriched in every way--in all your speaking and in all your knowledge-- [6] because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. [7] Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. [8] He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] God, who has called you into <B>fellowship</B> with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.<P>Phil 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the <B>fellowship</B> of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Paul seemed to have a way of putting things in perspective that kind of bops me in the head sometimes. <P>Jesus said in Matt. 12:34- For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.<P>James said in 3:10- Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. [11] Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? [12] My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.<P>Yes Taj, I think we all have much to learn in this life. Humility is such a hard thing for us.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>JAS 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. [9] Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. [10] Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Father, I confess my double-mindedness, the disdain I feel sometimes towards my husband. Father, though I may keep my mouth shut at times, the anger and disgust remains in my heart towards my husband. Oh Lord, cut this animosity away from me. Help me to love as You love, to speak the truth as Jesus did, with confidence that comes from You. I know that You will give me oportunity to practice these things Father and that your patience with me is so filed with grace. Holy Spirit, remind me of these things today. IJN, Amen

SueB, <P>Thanks for the healthy reminders of the need for perspective. I so easily forget the bigger picture and zero in only on the immediate. God's word is the only safety net for perspective.<P>My problem seems to be that I have such lofty expectations. Thats what I meant when I said I thought things would be rosy by now. I don't think after all this time I would be considered impatient, but as usual my expectations are far beyond what reality is dishing out.<P>Being married is much tougher the second time around and truly this is a new ball game. I had to let go the fantasy of faithfulness and now live with the hope that lessons were learned and fruit might still be manifest. Staying is just as tough as leaving, the difference is that for me to leave would of been going against God's will. <P>I am in short supply of staying power but I know I won't turn from the will of God. So, I hang by my fingernails for the time being and trust the corner will be turned soon and this marriage will quit quaking at every bump!<P>I sound so whiney when you are going through so much. Forgive me. You never seem to complain about your situation. May God give you wisdom SueB to travel the road before you.