Hi Diane<P>Welcome! We are studying The Power of a Praying Wife by Stormi Omartian and you can find both the book and the study guide on Amazon.com or look in your local bible book store.<P>The focus of this study is praying for the things in our husband's lives that affect both them and us, since as Rootbeer (Alcoholic's wife) said we are one flesh and what happens to our spouses happens to us. The most important chapter in the whole book is Chapter one- His wife- in that we need to be making changes in ourselves to be the kind of wife our husband needs. <P>This will be the third time we have gone through this study, so you can do a search on Chapter one on all our posts and find the original discussion and the study guide questions through the bible study thread. God pulls us back to Chapter one a lot!<P>Sometimes God allows yuch in our lives to get our attention, to pull us back to where we need to be. Perhaps this is so in your case. At any rate, we are blessed to have you in our study group. On Tuesdays, we write out a prayer thread and pray together in our homes in one spirit for the other in this group. <P>There also is a large thread on this forum from the Boundaries in Marriage book that might be helpful to you as well.<P>Again, God bless and welcome.

Thank you for the warm welcome, I will work on getting the books, and check back in. I agree with ,god throwing us in the yuch to get us back where we belong, I do think that is so in my case.Once again thank you,Diane

Hi SueB, where do I find the largethread ,Boundries in Marriage book? Thank you Diane

The tough questions<P>As I have shared with you before I am working on a Step four of the 12 steps program for healing of damaged emotions from a biblical based study called The Twelve Steps-A Spiritual Journey from RPI Publishing, Inc..<P>As in any 12-step program, step four is the process of making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves, based on Lam. 3:40- Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord.<P>This is not something that can begin and end in a day. The moral inventory is a list of our strengths and our weaknesses, also identified as wrongs, character defects, faults, and shortcomings. It is prayerfully accomplished with God's help for our benefit.<P>Many of us developed survival skills in childhood to cope with growing up, with living in our immediate households. Some of us may have had tough childhoods, with abuse, etc. Others of us may have had the stress of high expectations, a life filled with perfectionist expectations. The purpose for such an inventory is for self-discovery, not to place blame for our problems on environment or family of origin or anything else. It is to discover how we coped as children and how those coping skills traveled with us into adulthood and into our marriages. It is the rooting out of behaviors that once may have had a place in our lives for necessity but no longer serve a purpose and keeps us from forming those intimate relationships that we desire. <P>I kiddingly told Karenna that I hate to go through the hard stuff by myself, but my motives for this post is much more. In my life experiences I have found that if there is an area that I need to work on, there usually is someone close by who also needs to work on the same thing and God tells us that two are much better than one. That we all desire to become the woman God would have us become, He is the third strand in the unshakable cord of three strands. Though we often look at this verse in relationship to marriage, I believe it is applicable to believers in general and our sisterhood in Christ in specific that this applies to us as well.<P>So, as I ask God to change me, I am going to delve into some of this step four stuff and throw out information and questions to spur you to greater in depth thinking. HW mentions the sorting out the differences between the word "fear" and the word afraid and how they apply to us as believers. Rootbeer is going to share some of the things she too is learning from the book she is reading. I am just sensing God challenging us to go deeper this time. Taj is a marvel at remembering many things from previous readings and also provides a wealth of information for us. Karenna also brings gifts to the forum with her honesty and truthfulness. We have new women joining us and we have another opportunity to get to know one another and to grow from them as well.<P>I am excited about this. ?. So let's begin.<P><BR>

SueB,<P>I have to comment on the strength and weaknesses assessment, probably because it was one of the questions asked at my job interview today. I was able to off the top of my head verbalize what I viewed as the things I could bring to this job which I considered and asset as well as those things which potentially could be a hindrance. Interestingly enough the very things which I listed as weaknesses are things which in the Kingdom of God are considered strengths! I was taken aback as I considered later on how we really need God's guidance through such an assessment.<P>Let me give an example. I am a people person. I enjoy people and have the ability to empathize with people in their situations. I feel for their pain and want to enter into that pain to the degree that they feel support and sensitivity from another. That sounds well and good from God's perspective but from the worlds perspective that is becoming too personally involved and essentially loosing perspective. So, my question is, "Is that a strength or a weakness?"<P>We must be very careful as God's children to weigh ourselves on His scales and not the scales of this world! The evil one would have us accentuate what the world considers the positive and God considers the negative. I would rather flounder from the world's perspective and excel in the eyes of the Creator!<P>Just some thoughts!<BR>Taj

PS 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;<BR> test me and know my anxious thoughts.<P><BR> PS 139:24 See if there is any offensive way in me,<BR> and lead me in the way everlasting.<P><BR>I agree fully my sister. It is from the scriptures that I want us to search for the truth regarding our strengths and weaknesses as God reveals them to us.<P>The example you cited is of course a strength. Where it becomes a weakness is when you do the feeling FOR them, when you do not allow them to solve their own problems but attempt to solve them for them rather than continuing the at their side as support while they go through the struggle and solve their own problems, which gives them a sense of mastery and confidence to continue to grow. As a side supporter you instill in them a belief in themselves, and a willingness to stand firm with them through the tough times rather than controlling the situation and fixing it which undermines their sense of worthiness and ability to fix anything.<P>As with anything, the evil one wants to muddy up stuff so that is why I want to compare anything we do with the word of God. Thanks for the reminder.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited January 04, 2001).]

John 1: 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.<P><BR> RO 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."* [8] But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. [9] Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [10] I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [11] For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. [12] So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.<P><BR> RO 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.<P><BR> RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [15] I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [16] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [17] As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [18] I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.* For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [19] For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. [20] Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.<P><BR> RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [22] For in my inner being I delight in God's law; [23] but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. [24] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? [25] Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!<P><BR>1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. [6] If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.<P><BR>Step four helps us get in touch with our "shadow" that part of us that we have hidden away for so long--our repressed nature. We will understand that our shadow is an integral part of our nature and must be accepted by us. This part of our nature hides our resentments, fears, and other repressed feelings. As we begin to see ourselves, we will learn to accept our whole character -the good and the bad- which will free us to discover survival behaviors that began in childhood. While "shadow" sounds very unlike Christian terminology, the idea of a battle between light and dark is a biblical truth as shown in the above verses. Just as on a sunny day our shadow follows our every move, our dark side or fallen nature is always with us. The darkness we carry within us, the sin nature that Paul talks about, is most evident when contrasted with the light of truth, God's word. <P><BR>Col 3:5-8 challenges us to get rid of those things that belong to our earthly nature so that we may develop more the character of God. I John 1:9 tells us to confess with our lips those sins of ours and yet, if we do not dig and identify with God's help, those areas that need to be exorcised.<P><BR>So I challenge us to look at the survival skills we developed and more than likely have perfected as we became adults to protect ourselves, which interfere with receiving the fullness of joy. Three specific areas to investigate are denial, resentment and fear. Other categories fall under these three areas and we will investigate them a bit at a time. For now, let's look at denial.<P><BR>Denial is a key survival skill that we learned in childhood. It stunted our emotional growth by keeping us in a make-believe world. We often fantasized that our situation was better than it really was. Denial protected us from our feelings and helped us repress the pain we felt around us, whether it was the family environment, perfectionist tendencies, unrealistic expectations, etc. Our shame and guilt caused us to be silent, rather than to be honest and face the fear of being ridiculed by others. This withdrawal hindered us from developing into mature, emotionally healthy adults. The inability to control our environment utilized denial as a way of dealing with the confusion, instability or perhaps even violence of the adults around us. We rationalized what was happening, and invented acceptable reasons for their unacceptable behavior. By doing this, we ignored the chaos and denied the overwhelming problems. As we matured, our denial continued to protect us from the need to face reality and helped us hide behind our delusions and fantasies.<P><BR>Question #1. In what ways do you tend to deny from reality?<P><BR>JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things<BR> and beyond cure.<BR> Who can understand it?<P><BR> JER 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart<BR> and examine the mind,<BR> to reward a man according to his conduct,<BR> according to what his deeds deserve."<P><BR>Question #2. Describe an action or behavior that reminds you that you have a deceitful heart.<P>Remember that Peter could not imagine that he could possibly ever come across a situation where he would deny our Lord and yet, as the Lord told him, he denied Him 3 times. When the rooster crowed and Peter realized what he had done, he was devastated! In much the same way, when we realize what denial has done to us, we experience feelings of self-hatred. It is now that the denial needs to be acknowledge and resolved.<P><BR>Question #3- Explain ways in which denial causes you pain or embarrassment.<P><B>Types of Denial<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Simple denial:</B> To pretend that something does not exist when it really does. (i.e. discounting physical symptoms that may suggest the presence of problems)<P><BR><B>Minimizing:</B> To acknowledge a problem, but refuse to see its severity (admitting to an over usage of prescription drugs when in fact there is overt addiction or admitting anger problem in the home when there has been actual physical attacks)<P><BR><B>Blaming:</B> To recognize the problem, then blame someone else for its cause (i.e. blaming others for your tendency to isolate)<P><BR> <B>Excusing:</B> To offer excuses, alibis, justifications, and other explanations for our own or others' behavior (i.e. calling in sick for a partner when the actual cause of the absence is drunkenness)<P><BR><B>Generalizing:</B> To deal with problems on a general level which typically avoids personal and emotional awareness of the situation or conditions (i.e. sympathizing with a friend's unemployment when you know the underlying cause is irresponsibility)<P><BR><B> Dodging:</B> To change the subject to avoid threatening topics (i.e. talking about the weather when your spouse is discussing the overdrawn checkbook)<P><BR><B>Attacking:</B> To become angry and irritable when reference is made to the existing condition, thus avoiding the issue (i.e. arguing about work conditions when the boss addresses tardiness)<P><BR>quoted from The twelve steps-A Spiritual Journey-pp72-73<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Question #4- In what areas of your life do you suspect that denial is most active?<BR>Galatians 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. [4] Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, [5] for each one should carry his own load.<P><BR>Question #5- How does pride keep you from being honest with yourself?<P><BR>Remember Stormi reminds us that it's impossible to truly give ourselves in prayer for our husbands without first examining our own hearts. We cannot go to God and expect answers if we harbor unforgiveness, bitterness or resentment. If we find that we see ourselves in some of the examples above regarding denial, then surely we have more to ask forgiveness for.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited January 03, 2001).]

<B>Question #1. In what ways do you tend to deny from reality?</B> I'm really thinking hard about this stuff..... and having a rough time. I think I have denied reality in that I want so much to believe that my husband loves me..... when his behavior (the reality) indicates he doesn't. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Our shame and guilt caused us to be silent, rather than to be honest and face the fear of being ridiculed by others<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is true for me....in the here and now... not my childhood. That part was good. I don't make things up but instead do not mention my husband or family life to others, especially my co-workers, as I am ashamed that I have allowed this man to treat me like a piece of dirt he kicks around with his boots. <P><B>Question #2. Describe an action or behavior that reminds you that you have a deceitful heart.</B>Have been tempted to verbally attack husband back, even think out the words I would say that I thought would hurt him as much has he hurts me. This is sin and I confess it to the Lord. Even though I did not actually do this, it is still evidence of having a deceitful heart. I have had a difficult time overcoming negative thoughts and sometimes words about others and to them - i.e., old bosses I didn't like, computer users at work, the OW, etc. Lately I pray and ask the Lord to show me what I need to repent of and if there is anyone I need to forgive or ask forgiveness of. <P>I am trying, really trying, yet many times I feel overwhelmed and that I will never get it right. Satan attacks, sticks negative, degrading thoughts in my mind and I get discouraged. Which is exactly what he wants to happen. It is all a spiritual battle and the battleground is our minds. Praise God we have the Savior we can call on to lift us up and fight the battle for us. My problem is remembering that I don't have to fight the battle, He will, and then <I>let him</I>.<P>Will tackle more questions tomorrow.... my mind is weary tonight.<BR>

Oneday - your post was wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing it. I am thrilled about all the positive changes the Lord has brought about in your husband, and your life. May He bless you abundantly and I pray that you have favor wherever you go, and in whatever you do. Wow, it is so great that your husband went to the altar and prayed!!! That just made my day.

It is wearying to think about these things AW. That's why I didn't answer anything last night. Had to think on these things a bit. What I just caught myself doing was rationalizing and minimizing my childhood!<P>I too was going to write that I didn't think my childhood was affected, but my choices as an adult is where I made my errors, but I just heard that gentle voice asking if I was rationalizing and minimizing...wow, I was going to say that my mother worked really hard to overcome her abusive childhood and do something different to break the cycle of abuse, which is is true, but the reality of it, also which is true, is that she became so rigid in her attempt and really hadn't developed any other coping skills herself, that verbal abuse that occurred in our house probably cut to the heart far deeper than any physical striking. My poor mom had such a need for control and to feel powerful in her part of the world. Funny, I had worked through the anger part of this 15 years ago and worked on understanding her hurt, which I can, but I realize today, I minimized the pain I experienced through this all. Her comments to me that I didn't have a clue what abuse was and that she would be glad to show me abuse kept me in the fear mode for compliance. That combined with my father's perfectionism which stated I should try harder really instilled the need to perform to be loved modis that I have operated under all these years. I think more than anything that is why I cry when I realize what Christ did for me because of the love God has for me in John 3:16. I didn't have to DO anything, I didn't have to perform or earn the love.<P>Wow, so yes, I have to admit that I have not been living in reality, that my childhood was abusive, that I was raised in fear and rigidity, that though I did not receive physical marks for the most part, the implied references for what could be as I was backed in corners with threats, with ample words of how worthless I was and how powerless I was, the gleam in her eye as she bragged about loving to back me against the wall and slap me in the face to humiliate me...hmmmm hadn't thought of these things for years. <P>To see how it played out then and how I have continued to try and perform all these years to keep the peace. To realize that when I did try to stand up for myself, I felt shame and guilt for doing so, and how I then in turn developed a sensitive heart for those who were in abusive situations and could fight eloquently for them, build them up to do the very things I couldn't do for myself. To realize that since I considered myself as not worthy, it didn't matter what happened to me but it mattered what happened to others.<P>And so this is clicking for me in my growing process of trying to understand that as a daughter of the king I do not deserve to be spoken to in the manner that I have allowed and the Boundaries stuff seems to make more sense to me. Have to think on this more and probably do some grieving...will write more later...<P>Father continue to shine your light that the dark corners of our lives become clearer, that we understand the truths around us, the patterns of defensiveness that we have developed over the years. Show me the offensive areas of my life that I may be healed and a useful vessel that You are able to work through. IJN, Amen.<P>

SueB: Your last post struck a deep chord within me. Minimizing, experiencing childhood abuse, and feeling that everyone else deserves ggod,except for me. I know the Lord has been trying to work on these issues with me and that they are certainly key for me to grow. I have been praying to understand why all this emotional stuff is now surfacing in my life. And yet, I know that God has been dealing with me about old hurts as he has been healing me. Several years ago, I had a clear understanding that he wanted to heal me of hurts going back to my childhood, as well as the recent hurts from my H's adultery. Yesterday,I posted about all of the awesome changes that have happened this year and I am awed and full of gratitude. And yet, I know that all is not resolved in my life. I am learning to trust God deeply, but I do not trust myself. I feel as though I am helpless and inept on a personal level. I know our Father has a work to do in me. And....yesterday proved that. H called and wants D to return to him. He has free pre-school and told me (once again) that I need to make the concessions to finalize the completion of our reuniting. I recognize he has many changes to make (yelling, cussing, and generally abusive behavior). I do have hope that God can change his heart and continue to pray for that. Recent changes give me a tangible reason to hope for this. At H's demands, my heart began mourning at the thought of being separated from my D again. I want to share her (as I know he misses her as I do), but I see that the ideal would be to live in the same home. I prayed that God would show me what I should do. I guess I have become content with seeing H frequently and leaving him with his Mother while God takes off the rough edges. I now feel pressured. I have to give him my decision today. His reason for putting D in daycare and keeping her with him, is financial. My finances are actually better now than ever and although the absence of a daycare expense would help me to get out of debt quicker, I can manage to pay my bills and daycare and I have not asked or received any help from him to do so. Our daughter told me that she wants to stay here with me (because Daddy yells) and have him come be with us. In favor of him coming to live here: I own a house and I have a good job. Moving to where he lives would mean sharing one room with H and D as he lives with his Mom. He does not have a job at this time. The economy is tight where he is at and it seems as though the changes I would have to make to go to him would be monumental compared with the ease with which he could come back here.In favor of his request, I love my m-i-l and have concern for her living alone, the place he lives is beautiful, the pace of life is more peaceful (perhaps I could use that) and it is away from here where our problems began. A fresh new start. M-i-l pointed out that all these concerns can be taken care of if this is God's plan. I tried Karenna's wonderful suggestion about praying the possibilities and finding an answer this way. My only clear answer is rooted in my childhood pain and that is "I do not want my daughter to feel unwanted, abandoned, or unloved." As she said she wants to stay here with me, I do not want to send her away. I was hoping that God would arrange circumstances to make this stand for me, like H changing his mind, the daycare not having room, etc. He didn't. I am now praying for strength to stand up and tell my H that our feelings (mine and D's) are important. Money isn't. I need to tell him that the fair thing to do would be for him to come here until we can all plan and make this move under better circumstances. By this I mean with jobs in place and the ability to quickly get a home of our own. I feel like a frozen little rabbit, afraid that H will bully D away from me. I understand that his motives are somewhat pure in that he is seeking to put our family back together. I would probably be more comfortable with the move if he had a job and some security to offer. He is expecting me to come over and be the breadwinner. I don't want the sole responsibility of starting over. I don't want to give up having a home of my own. I don't want the pressure of needing to quickly find an adequate job in a harsh economy. I have looked into job possibilities and pay is substantially less and good jobs are minimal. I know it is not impossible, but after putting this decision before the Lord, I would expect at least a seed of emotion spurring me to make the move. On top of H's move to pressure me in this way, some work related concerns were magnified and the old pressure cooker began boiling on that front. I can only trust in God, I have asked him to change my life, to weed and sort and prune it and plant worthwhile things in it. So, I guess this situation is highlighting the fact that I minimize issues until they overwhelm me. I avoid conflict until I have no choice and then I face it with an out of control response based in panic. Others see me as patient, easy going, calm, a strength in the midst of great stress. What I am is afraid to do anything that makes things more unpleasant. I work hard at pleasing all the people in my life and that is impossible. I love the scripture stating "The battle is mine, sayeth the Lord". I do not want to fight any battles in my life. My tendency to minimize rationalizes that this non-confrontational stance is consistent with the Lord's desire for us. Partly true, partly untrue. I think that God wants to have children who are willing and able to be obedient to all tasks he calls us to perform. This means that my weakness in this area can become a hindrance. On a professional level, I have learned to be fairly healthy in my responses as it is easy to set my emotions aside. I can match my response and show of strength, in a manner consistent with the requirements of the given situation. But on a personal level, I am a whole different person. I am afraid of losing the love and esteem of those I love and in response, I am ineffective and weak. A lot to ponder. It is amazing how God puts these issues right in front of our path and we have no choice but to deal with it. I am praying that he gives me the strenth and wisdom to do what he sees is right.

Oneday, I do so appreciate your honest response. I really do think God is trying to free us so that we can experience love as He designed it.<P><BR>In response to your struggle, I will pray for you for wisdom and boldness. You are right,you and your daughter are worthy of being loved and not being yelled at. I suspect that God will honor your limit to your husband in more ways than you will realize. <P><BR>He will reward your steps to be honest, He will reward your obedience to speaking the truth in love, He will reward that you take your responsibility towards the gift He gave you, your daughter, and are considering her best interests to not be around verbal abuse and yelling. And He will reward your desire to do right in spite of all the options before you. He will give you the answer, but perhaps it is you taking the steps of obedience (loving confrontation) first. We know He works in all things and as you have stated, there are many answers you have already seen as evidence of God working in your life.<P><B>Question #2. Describe an action or behavior that reminds you that you have a deceitful heart.</B><P><BR>The best way I can describe it is planning for safety nets, self-protection,<B>what I would do if</B> scenarios I can develop elaborate plans in my mind. I even have in the past quit sharing with those who care about me out of fear that they would tell me my plan was a bad one, or try to convince me to not make plans? I have been working hard this past month not to do that, to focus on honesty even if it is scary and that is where my accountability partner came up with the need to do the step 4 thing so that I could be accountable to my own self and admit those parts that are mine.<P><BR><B>Question #3- Explain ways in which denial causes you pain or embarrassment.</B><P><BR>I too am embarrassed by my husband's behavior towards me, and the fact that I have allowed this to continue for so long. I take one kind act and try to use it as a cover up for the 20 bad acts, minimizing the impact they have had on me. I would be embarrassed if the body knew the demands my H makes on me, so I feel my denial of the problem is dishonesty on my part and I feel ashamed. I don't embellish lies about my husband but my silence about the truth seems to be a lie in itself. I am embarrassed because honesty is important to me and I feel I am compromising myself as well as God's truth that I hold dear. On the other hand, God does call us to be discerning and to get wisdom, so my telling all would not be speaking of my husband in an honoring way, and I think of the Proverbs 31 woman who did not harm her husband. <P><BR><B>Question #4- In what areas of your life do you suspect that denial is most active?</B><P><BR>Intimate male/female relationships. With people who are supposed to love me. I can make a ton of excuses for everyone but myself. I can justify everyone's behavior. I can generalize and dodge and minimize like a pro. Saddest of all though is the realization that I deny myself, my feelings, my worth in God's eyes, the gifts I have been given, etc.<P>Father, I lay all these deficits before you, the areas where I have been deceitful and in denial, where I would have preferred to not confront and just excuse behaviors around me rather than take a stand for myself and you. Where I minimized the impact of the hurt I felt rather than expose myself. Where I manipulated with my silent thoughts hidden away and unspoken lest the darkness within me be brought before the light. You have shown me many things today and I know I will have to meditate on them more to fully understand, but I thank you for the Holy Spirit and for the tenacity you have for sticking by me when I didn't even stick by my self. Father forgive me of these things and continue to bring forth those areas that I have failed you that the slate may be fully wiped clean and the healing can occur. I give you the praise and glory.<P><BR>And Father, thank you for the openess of Oneday, for her ability to share her own struggles. Father give her your wisdom and a godly bodnes to be obedient to what she believes to be true as she seeks your face. Father, you have said that we can boldly come before the throne, and that we should be afraid of no one except for you. If then we have permission to come boldly before you, give Oneday the same boldness to go before her husband and state her limits for herself and her daughter. Contnue to soften her husband's heart and prepare it to hear what his wife has to say with great understanding. We ask these things in Jesus' name, Amen<BR><p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited January 05, 2001).]

Thank you, SueB

Thank You Lord for this forum, and the opportunity to fellowship with these dear praying wives. Father I praise You and give thanks to you for all You have done, and are now doing in our lives. Thank You especially Lord for moving in Oneday's husband's life, and the softening of his heart. We know You hear our prayers, and are answering them. Thank You Lord. I thank You for giving Oneday the courage to share her testimony with us, giving us a glimmer of hope for our situations. Lord, we KNOW you are in control, and trust You to handle everything. Help us Lord, to stay out of your way. IJN I pray, AMEN.<P>SueB, sounds like we're on the same page on this denial thing. Your answer to Question 2 is pretty much what I would have to say. I would say I have been denying the reality to my co-workers the most. Mostly, I avoid the subject altogether. I don't mention my husband to them at all. It is especially hard on days after holidays (like Christmas, Mother's Day, etc.) as they want to talk about what their spouses did for them etc. The reality of what it should be hurts me too much I guess. I am asking the Lord to take that pain away, and replace it with joy in Him.<P><B>Question #4- In what areas of your life do you suspect that denial is most active?</B>Hard one for me to answer. It's a toss up between the depth of the alcoholism and the abuse. For a long time I told myself that my husband's physical ailments were anything but what they really are - signs of liver disease. I must leave this in the Lord's hands as it is just too much for me to handle. <BR>

The threads were pretty quiet last night, hopefully all are reflecting and not turned off by the challenge to dig deeply and root out those things that cause us to all stumble. Stormie talks about the painfulness of allowing God to change us, especially when we think our spouse is the one who needs to change more than we do. She is also adamant that dying to self does not mean being a doormat or placing ourselves in abusive situations and in fact encourages us to go to a place of safety if we are in physical or emotional danger and to pray for our H within that safety.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Lev 26:19 I will break down your stubborn <B> pride </B> and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. [20] Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.<P>PS 10:4 In his <B> pride </B> the wicked does not seek him;<BR> in all his thoughts there is no room for God.<P>PR 11:2 When <B> pride </B> comes, then comes disgrace,<BR> but with humility comes wisdom.<P>PR 13:10 <B> Pride </B> only breeds quarrels,<BR> but wisdom is found in those who take advice.<P>PR 16:18 <B> Pride </B> goes before destruction,<BR> a haughty spirit before a fall.<P>PR 29:23 A man's <B> pride </B> brings him low,<BR> but a man of lowly spirit gains honor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Question #5- How does pride keep you from being honest with yourself?<P>Interesting question. I would have to admit that my pride keeps me from the honesty of admitting failure I think, and at first glance I believed this to be a kid thing as I am having the hardest time letting go of the <B> try harder </B> kid message. Part of that goes with <B> what would others think </B> stuff, the <B> performance for love </B> standard I was brought up with. Or what would all the people who gave me wedding presents and told me I was nuts to be giving everything up and traveling 3000 miles away to marry my husband say? <B> I didn't do this without a lot of prayer. </B> Again I am aware of the soft question, am I being honest with myself now, am I rationalizing? As I was reading the Word (Lev 26) this morning, I was again brought back to Romans 7 and my sinful nature, my desire to good and then doing what is wrong. I do <B> know </B> without a doubt that I was supposed to come here and marry this man. I do <B> know </B> that God has a plan for us as a couple. I arrogantly thought that I was to be used to bring this man closer to the Lord, and that indeed may be part of the plan, but I am also honestly and painful aware during this digging process that there are things that God is wanting me to get rid of and that perhaps these challenges before me are part of that rooting process in developing a closer walk myself with the Lord. My own pride in the walk I have with the Lord has hidden the truthfulness that I am not there yet, that I have much to learn and that I am sinning big time! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 2CO 10:12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The double-edged sword strikes again! My husband once told me that he thought I was too complacent in my relationship with the Lord. I discounted his words, I felt the peace I had was from my confidence in whom I believed, but gosh, this morning, I am thinking that perhaps the Lord used my husband in a mighty way and I disregarded the wisdom of His words through my husband!<P>That somewhere in here, I <B> have </B> considered myself as <B> better than </B> in regards to spiritual issues. Hard pill to swallow?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. [16] Only let us live up to what we have already attained. <P>1PE 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. [8] Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. [9] Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. [10] Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. [11] If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My mind is spinning here as I think on these things, as I realize that I took an act of kindness from my husband and tried to cover 20 acts of unkindness because <B> love covers over a multitude of sins </B> when in fact, it would have been more loving to confront the sin with truth (setting limits, not letting it slide) and to verbalize admiration and appreciation to the max for the one act of kindness so that my husband would be spurred on to more acts of the same. <P>Made the mistake of reading Passionate Marriage yesterday without my highlighter so can't find what I am looking for, but the point that I heard repeated, just as Gary Smalley or Harley has said, is that one person can make a difference in their marriage. Schnarch explained it though in a way that finally grabbed me to a greater understanding. Being creatures of comfort we dislike change, so behaviors, even yuchy ones, fill our knowledge base in terms of the expected. We do or say A and we know spouse is going to do or say B. We may not like B (and even hope for a revelation and changed response) but it is comforting to know that we know exactly what will happen in a given situation. Sort of a control thing I think, of making sense of our world as we see it. <P>When we make a change in our words, behavior, and etc. this changes the dynamics and throws our spouse off from his expected perception of how he relates to you, that is you say A and he says B, end of discussion?. So today you make a choice to say or do C and his expected response of B is still there, but he realizes something was different, you didn't react the same way. You changed the rules, you responded softly or said nothing, you apologized and told him he was right, or you set a limit?. whichever occurred, the change threw him, so he responds again, B, only this time with more emphasis! He is still waiting for the A to come from you as expected. You are getting stronger and more confident in yourself with this new mode of operation and you continue with C, so now he is increasing his B with anger, a higher intensity, etc. and you are continuing to respond with C and the man feels totally out of control and he is now in the position of deciding what he needs to do to become comfortable.<P>You have provided an opportunity for your spouse to grow. By remaining true and steadfast to your C and not wavering, you are continuing to love your husband in a positive way, you are not controlling his responses, and you are encouraging him to make choices and to grow with you. When we tire of doing good, (doing C) and slide back into A responses, so that his B responses are once again comfortable for him, our regression hurts both of us and improvement is further impaired. Gives me a whole new insight into Gal. 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.<P>I mention this as last night my husband and I were once again doing the A/B thing and I really felt led to do the C thing. This time it worked! It was swallowing my pride and acting more loving as Jesus would. My husband's behavior change continued through this morning. Will it work tonight or tomorrow? Don't know, but it was an encouragement enough for me to risk continuing it for the betterment of our marriage. <P>Father, thank you for Your Holy Spirit who guides us with Your truth and love. Father, I am so humbled at what You have revealed to me today about my pride and my sin nature. Father, take this pride from me. Forgive me for this sin. Cleanse me and continue to teach me that I can become the wife that You would have me be for my husband. Thank you for making me see that my husband did have insight so long ago about my complacency and that I dishonored him by discounting his counsel. Continue to teach us how to communicate with one another in Your Spirit, so that we hear one another with Your heart and not out of our own selfishness.<P>Bless this study today and these women that we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, to encourage one another for Your righteousness. IJN, Amen.<BR>

I still haven't received the book from Amazon-maybe it'll come today <P>Sorry, ahead of time--I don't know how to do the quotes!<P>1) In what ways do you tend to deny from reality?<BR>In the past I've really run away or reacted, but I've been learning (and still am very much so learning) to face issues and not self protect and withdraw. I've come a long way, but am still learning. Sometimes too instead of trusting what God says--I figure it out from life (I didn't use to do this, but started due to dissillusionment). But like they said in Sunday school, God's promises ALWAYS come true. For Noah it took 100 years, for Abraham some of God's promises took 2,000 years to accomplish, but all of them were fulfilled and could be relied upon! Abraham understood this better than me and I'm still struggling and learning.<P>2) Describe an action or behavior that reminds you that you have a deceitful heart. Someone said safety nets and backup plans. That is what I've come to learn and it has been learned for me. I used to have this blind faith in God, but although there was a lot of faith it wasn't mature or something (that worked for about 20 years)but life happened and I wasn't prepared and mature enough. I struggle with what is wrong with safety nets and backup plans as I felt I learned the necessity of them and seek God for them, but sometimes I know they are wrong and are based on my fear and reactions to events perceived or true and that is wrong. Honestly is too something I've really been facing this last year. Tremendously so. I didn't realize my heart was being dishonest even with myself and I was very challenged in this area. Other people in my life "got the idea" that I didn't want to discuss something (for example) and backed off and accepted it and my boyfriend wouldn't be so easy on me-and this was very good as it really challenged me to look within my heart and see my reactions and responses and how they affected him. I was always gentle, but I wasn't always honest about my heart-with myself or others!<P>3) Ways denial has caused me pain or embarassment? Well, I've learned denial is not dealing with reality (although it takes work sometimes to determine what reality is-it takes communication at least!). I can't think of a specific illustration to give-sorry. I don't know that denial has caused me embarassment (that I can remember) but it has caused me pain and does cause that as it keeps people in pain until you can get beyond it. I think it's here at MB that I've read the stages being something like: the bomb--conflict(or hearing/recognizing truth that hurts and is painful), denial, acceptance of responsibility, centering (finding the way through it), and intimacy. <P>4) In what areas of life do you suspect that denial is most active?<BR>Boy, I feel like that varies from day to day. I get frustrated at feeling like I have to do all the work (and still after I've done so much changing and growing that I still have so far to go). This is true in my relationships and just God dealing with me. It's amazing how great His patience and love is! He has patience with me when I don't with myself!

Just realized something intellectually (meaning it's a lot harder to live it!!!!) But we aren't supposed to treat our SO according to how they treat us at all or operate out of that (other than dealing with reality). So I'm not supposed to live in reaction to Mark loves me , but as a reaction to my Father's love and patience. I'm supposed to shine on Mark that response to my Father and His love and patience. <P>Hard to do though...<P>HM

I still say 1 Cor 13 is our best source of what love is and is not, so we need to use that as the guide for our actions. And yes, it does not matter how our love ones respond, we are first and foremost accountable to God. How our love ones act may give us a clue about things we need to do though, i.e. speak the hard truth in love, set limits/boundaries, etc. but we love because He first loved us...<P>And yes, it is hard to live out!

Sue,<P>This is a great thread!!!!! My silence is because I am thinking about this. It is tough material for me and sometimes denial can also serve a purpose. <P>If I weren't in denial to some extend I would not wait and stand for either my marriage or my husband. So I am serching this material to discover how denial has hurt the relationship in the past, but still choosing some denial so I can remain hopeful! Make sense? <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hw:<BR><B>It is tough material for me and sometimes denial can also serve a purpose. <P>If I weren't in denial to some extend I would not wait and stand for either my marriage or my husband. So I am serching this material to discover how denial has hurt the relationship in the past, but still choosing some denial so I can remain hopeful! Make sense? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Since we have just begun this digging, I do understand that you feel if you were not in denial, then you would have no hope. I suspect though when we get through some of this (and there is a lot!) you will realize that the denial will not be necessary and that you will be able to comfortably deal straight forwardly with the truth to be able to address J differently. <P>I know right now, the outward appearance is that he is making a life without you, but don't you see, that is why God looks at the heart, for the outward appearances are often very deceiving? Think of the masks that you can succesfully wear. How many times have you in the past gone to business functions and successfully acted out the part of the loving wife with the greatest family with no problems and no one knew any different? <P>One of the books suggested that our feeling part is the little child in us and suggested that we dig through our photos and find the picture of ourselves that we relate most to when we think of ourselves as a child. Then we are to tape that pic near our computer or desk or the bathroom mirror, wherever we spend most of our time, so that child's face is in our presence a lot. This is the face that needs nurturing and loved. When you look at her, what do you feel, what do you think about, etc. <P>I scanned mine and put her on the desktop of my puter. It has been there about a month now and I can say I do feel differently about her today from a month ago. I named her Carrie as she is someone needing care and I am the one who can give it to her. I stare at her little face and my heart is warming towards her. She is impish and has a touch of stubborness in her face and I actually smile now when I see her. I feel protective of her in a loving motherly way rather than the critical motherly way now. I feel proud of her rather than wanting to stuff her behind me so no one will see her. It really has been an interesting thing. <P>Try it. Attach the pic to your books you are studying, a binder or whatever you use to keep track of your school stuff. When friends see the pic, introduce the little girl as someone you are learning to love, do love or are caring for.<P>Like Stormie says, we have to be totally honest with God in order to break down the walls in our hearts and smash the barriers that stop communication-totally up front about our feelings with Him. There is no need to <B>pretty it up</B> for Him because He already knows the truth and He wants to see if we are willing to admit it and confess it as disobedience to His ways. He wants our hearts to become workable and moldable for Him.<P>Hugs to you. You know my email if you need to rant.<BR>