H and I just returned from a 4-day trip. It was business related. I have one credit card left that's in good standing, and I've been holding off on bankruptcy until it was behind us. In the back of my mind, I've been contemplating bankruptcy first, then separation. After this trip, I'm ready to make a beeline for divorce! Thank goodness for Patricia Evans' book on verbal abuse. Without the knowledge from that book, the argument on Saturday night would have reduced me to tears, and I would have faced a room full of colleagues the next day with red puffy eyes. Instead, I saw more clearly how selfish, unrelenting, and dysfunctional he is. Even if he agreed to seek counselling this minute, it would probably take years for him to be a fully functional person, if ever. I believe he will blame me for any and every problem for as long as we remain under the same roof. <P>I have tried everything I know to try. The recipe for peace in the household is for me to have no expectations, no requests, and no complaints. In our first joint counselling session (January), he bitterly complained about how controlling I am. It was news to me. Then he gave an example... I'd ask him for a napkin sometimes, and by golly in his childhood home people had to get their own napkins! For one thing, the only time I ever ask him for that, I'm sitting down, and he's in the vicinity of the napkin supply. Jeepers alive. <P>Over the last two months, I've been in withdrawal. His idea of conversation is him talking and me listening. I get maybe two sentences at a stretch without interruption. I used to be a patient listener. Then I felt like a captive audience. This summer when he'd start talking, I'd count out five sentences and leave the room. Less than ideal boundary setting, I know. It's the only way I could think of to even out the amount of time we spend listening to each other. I kept looking for signs that he's interested in me as a person. He puts forth the best behavior he seems capable of, I'll admit, but I believe it's out of fear of losing me, not because he wants <B>me</B>. My self esteem and self confidence are returning during this quiet time. I value the silence because it's a way I can protect myself <B>from</B> him emotionally as I gather up the bits and pieces of my old self. <P>His complaints about my controlling behavior are etched in my mind. A request, evidently, is the equivalent of exercising control. I have resisted making any requests this year. I have tried to expect nothing from him. As the trip drew closer and closer, I was biting my tongue harder and harder. Would you believe that he hasn't had a haircut since LAST YEAR???? Two weeks ago, I asked him if he planned to get his haircut. He was evasive (typical). I tried to keep it light, and teased him about the zoo having an extra exhibit just for him to live in. He hadn't cut his nails in I don't know how long. (You see, cutting his hair and filing his nails were things I used to do for him. I don't anymore.) He got on the plane with long ragged fingernails and even longer hair. <P>On Saturday, there was a misunderstanding on the breakfast count. He was there as my spouse, and I evidently didn't realize that spouses required special registration for that portion. It was admittedly awkward. OTOH, he made no effort to be flexible, no effort to clarify which meals were covered in the registration that day, or any effort to make the best of the situation. I had a job to do in preparing for the meeting. I suggested he ask the meeting coordinator about the meal situation, since I had obviously misunderstood what was included for spouses. Later he said he felt like a fifth wheel and he didn't like the way I had snubbed him. I guess maybe I did snub him. I didn't put him at the top of my priority list, didn't talk to the meeting coordinator for him, didn't put my job on hold for 10 minutes while I tended to my H's breakfast needs and emotional comfort. <P>This breakfast snafu got my H so upset that he went back to the hotel early on Saturday. I knew he was getting in one of his moods, and I refrained from making any dinner commitments with people I would have enjoyed. I had dinner with him, just the two of us. Back at the hotel room, he said he wouldn't be going to any of the activities the next day because he was made to feel so uncomfortable that morning. We went round and round. I said he's overreacting. Sunday's a new day and it can be better than Saturday. He said all I want is for him to be miserable, all I want is to get things my way. I tried to POJA for an hour, which of course, meant that I was hounding him and not giving him a moment's peace. I didn't raise my voice. I didn't cry. I didn't threaten. I simply stated several times that I want to reach an agreement that's satisfactory to both of us, and I wasn't satisfied. He wouldn't budge an inch. Said all he wanted was to be alone all day Sunday. So what does he do Sunday morning? He gets in the van and comes along! Without shaving first. FORTUNATELY, the van made a stop at the hotel enroute to lunch. He said there was green gunk coming out of his nose, which means a sinus infection. He has an uncanny ability to be ill whenever he wants to avoid an activity. The mysterious green gunk is gone now that we're home. <P>Really and truly, ladies, what do you think? Is there any one of you who thinks I should spend time on a plan b? I think it's hopeless. I think he's unreachable, of if he is reachable, I'm not the person who can do it. If marriagebuilders were a board game, I think I'd be holding the "go directly to divorce, do not Plan B" card.

Heart, for someone going through this challenge, you never cease to have that sense of humor. I always get your remarks... It is that selfishness in full throttle. If you have stood and done all possible to reconcile, then why should you continue to be mistreated? I say selfishness because I have a challenge at hand now with my H and I will be taking off this weekend, he is not aware though. Anyway, his disregard for his hygiene and his comments are evidence of self-esteem shot to hell if you ask me. The only way he seems to be able to deal with your new boundaries is to attempt to attack your character. But I am so glad you are standing fast and not feeding that negativity. I pray for you both and think of you often. I know it is all you can do to come here and vent. Remember, you are responsible for doing the right things. And there are just some treatments you simply do not have to accept, cut and dry. <P>I also can tell your love for yourself is growing, and you do have to be willing to do all necessary to keep yourself healthy and happy. Today you can be as happy - or as miserable as YOU CHOOSE to be. Don't choose to be miserable just because he wants you to be. Keep working on you with God and praying for him. I wish you courage and strength today. LOL

Boundaries are an interesting thing. Setting limits includes such things as identifying such things which are important to you, such as, if spouse choses to dress like a slob which will affect your business dealings, you can chose not to invite him. It is so hard when you want to make that attempt to build the relationship, etc. Heard something the other day about could you and would you in relation to men. Could you or any equivilant is apparently perceived as demeaning to a man as if attacking his intelligence or something....well, of course he could do such and such. Would you, however is a more direct approach and apparently now the guy has a clear idea of what you want him to do. Would you gives the guy a choice, will he do something or won't he. <P>You and I would both be happier living on a rooftop Lonesome, but I am not so sure happiness is what this trial is about. Paul talked about learning contentment no matter the circumstances and I think that is part of what God is wanting me to learn, along with the boundaries stuff. God is my joy and He loved my H so much He sent His son to die on a cross. Arg! Such truth. The other piece, though, is that even though we are to consider others more important than ourselves, we are to take care of our own things too and I guess I am thinking that just as the Proverbs 31 wife provided great care for her family, she also took good care of herself. I think it is about self-respect as the daughter of the king too.<P>I do not know what the answer is Lonesome. I am now in an 8 week anger group within the body of our church. I fell 5 weeks ago and broke my ankle a bunch and have a plate and 9 screws holding it together. I am wheelchair bound and going nuts as the things lay around this house undone. I have to rely on a person who is unreliable or at least sporadically reliable, as the mood hits him. I too would prefer to live on my own away from the unkindness, the demands, etc. I do not yet know how to live in peace with a boundaryless person. I know being truthful is my responsibility no matter how he responds and yet, I am so keyed up by being on guard that I am ready to abdicate my responsibility. I know God does not want that. God tells me to stand firm, to not give in to the bondage of slavery. This cycle is slavery.<P>I do not know how to love this man as Christ loved. I think about you all often. I continue to pray for you.<P>

ymon,<BR>I was thinking about you over the weekend. I went to GQ and looked up your story. I am honored to have you as a friend. You have a tremendously positive outlook despite your present difficulties. As for doing everything possible to reconcile, I'm not sure that I have. As SueB aptly points out, it is my responsibility to be truthful, no matter how he responds. I took a stab at it Saturday night, and out came the verbal shredding machine. I've spent inordinate amounts of time holding my thoughts to myself in order to avoid the machine. <P>Thank you for comments about growth. It's my top priority and I've been working hard at it. I do feel stronger and happier. Who knows, maybe I can muster up the gumption to be truthful with him. Guess I'm gonna have to if we're going to have two roofs instead of one... or a roof and a bridge. I want so much to do the boundaries right. I've been exposed to his venomous words for so long, that they slip into my speech too. Maybe I should visit SueB and be her wheelchair chauffeur when it's time for anger class. <P>SueB, my gosh, woman, you scare the living daylights out of me! You work so hard to study the Bible, say your prayers, be obedient to the Lord, mentor me and others, you have the patience of a saint... and you get more catastrophes in your life than anyone on this forum! Is catastrophy what I have to look forward to?? You take a class to tackle a tough problem, and your ankle gets shattered? Honestly, SueB, you're scaring me! LOL <P>So what prompted you to take an anger management class? You don't strike me as someone who needs it, although I could see how it might help you cope with someone who *really* needs it. Maybe I should take one. I found myself getting incredibly annoyed with my H last weekend, which I've already described profusely. My H definitely has an anger problem. I think he's aware of it too, rather than putting up a wall of denial. He might as well be in denial, though, because we won't seek out any help. <P>Thanks for the would/could suggestion. I've already seen some success with giving him choices instead of a request. I also hear you loud and clear about the responsibility for speaking the truth. I haven't been doing that. I think of it this way... I'm inside a cocoon, gathering strength for the day I emerge. It will be difficult, draining, straining, and stressful when that day comes for me to emerge. In all honesty, I'd like to fast forward through that part. Fat chance, I know. <P>Ever since ymon suggested in another thread that I was being doubleminded, I've prayed many times, requesting a future without my H. When he got home two hours later than usual yesterday, I got worried that H was removed from the planet. That's NOT what I have in mind! A lesson in being careful what I ask for. I'd like very much for him to attain some peace and happiness within his own soul during this lifetime. I've been so focused on my own personal growth, trying so hard to figure out my purpose in life. I conveniently neglected to see that my H is a child of God, a child with a plan from God too. I dunno, SueB, aspiring to love our men as Christ loved is too lofty a goal for me. If I say, ok, I want to love my H the way Christ loves... I'm setting myself up for failure! There's work for me and there's work for God. I'm admittedly fuzzy on what falls where, but right now, loving my H the way God loves him is simply outside my abilities. I can aspire until I'm blue in the face, but I also need to set some expectations for myself that are realistic. Does the Bible state that we're to actually <I>accomplish</I> (or be capable of) that level of love? <P>SueB, you take care of that ankle. Remember, there comes a time in every woman's life when it's appropriate to buy new clothes instead of doing laundry. (try going a month without running the washer or dryer... you'll be amazed at how much your electric bill goes down!)

Anger class...<P>Once all is said and done, when we allow ourselves to feel the feelings the one overwhelming sense I think is the rage we experience over all the events in our lives where unkindness, etc. occurs. When we try to live in peace and to live respectfully only to have the boundaryless person continue to push and push and not respect or even recognize that it is okay to say no, I think in defense we blow... anger itself is not a bad thing....what we do with it, to sin or not to sin is the concern. For me, being angry was never okay, it was commanded as a child to be held within and so when the rage went deep, the tears would come and I was not allowed that privilege either. So now I am an adult and the examples of being angry that I saw as a child do not seem to fit within the realms of not sinning I guess, so I am trying to figure out how one can be angry and not sin. <P>I mean, Jesus threw people out of the temple, ranted and raved, etc. but this was considered righteous anger because they were in the temple... and yet, now we each are a temple, holy and pure, so does not the ranting and ravings I do because I have a H who is not honoring of my person? And yet, I am supposed to respect this person, oh where is the balance? <P>So, that is why I am in the anger class. Trying to figure out what to do with these feelings and how not to sin in the process.

LH:<P>There's a thread over on Divorcing/Divorced" posted by JJ71197 about abusive relationships and getting out. May prove helpful.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KalGrl:<BR><B>LH:<P>There's a thread over on Divorcing/Divorced" posted by JJ71197 about abusive relationships and getting out. May prove helpful.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you KalGrl. Can you describe it a little more? I can't seem to find it.<P>SueB, you light up my life. I can just see you in that anger class. I picture most people in there because they get angry too quickly and easily... and there you are... to learn that it's ok to be angry sometimes. You're one in a million SueB! God bless you.

Hi LH,<P>Sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I was on vacation or I would have replied sooner.<P>Hey I know how it feels. I can not believe your H went to your business confrence looking like a bum and then had the nerve to act all pissy because you were not at his beck and call. Sometimes I think men are the biggest babies alive. All I can say is sorry you had to deal with that. I would have been so embarrased in your place that I would pray that he would have remained in the room.<P>I wish I could give you advice. I am going through the same thing. On the beach this weekend I went off on Tony. He had a four month job contract all he needed was to give a work refrence. He got a friend to do it but then threw the job away because he did not want to do it. I was soo angry. We need the money. I just told him point blank that I put up with his affairs, his verbal abuse but I was not going to support his lazy but for one more year.<P>The best advice I can give is maybe what I have been doing. I let Tony know what I will and will not tolerate. It is then his choice. If he does not get a job or go back to school than he has to move out. I will not deal with it anymore. I really feel at peace with this. I know I have been praying for advice from God on this. <P>I am sorry I seem to be prattling on about me and this is about you. I just know we are two peas in the same verbal and emotional abuse pod. It stinks. Try and remember it is not you but him. He has major issues. You can not solve them for him becuase he will have to want to change. I have learned this the hard way with Tony. <P>((((((LH))))))) a big old cyber hug. You are such a wonderful person I just hate to see you have to go through this.

Good to hear from you Paha! I'm amazed that you still have a smidgen of patience for Tony's lack of financial support while you're on the brink of losing your house! How did your job interview go? Hope you get it! <P>Part of my routine these days is to be in my truck at 7:00 to hear Tony Evans. I'm not sure what denomination he is. Some of the interpretations are way more conservative than my own preferences, but still I enjoy his style and his messages. Tonight he talked about the phrase "the truth will set you free." The message is already fuzzy in my tired brain. I believe he said the saying is really "know the truth, and the truth that you know will set you free". I probably botched it and shouldn't be putting it in quotes. Anyway, the message was pointing out the difference between seeing the truth, and knowing it in your heart. When you take the truth to heart and make it a part of you, only then can it set you free. I can see this working in my own situation. <P>I read material at drirene.com last year and could see that the descriptions of verbal and emotional abuse applied to my H. I wanted so much for it to be untrue. Several months went by. I could see the truth, but kept it at arms' length. I harbored a lot of bitterness, anger and resentment during that time. I took my heart to the celestial heart softener many times. My prayers were answered each time, but my heart crusted over quickly. At long last, I have invited the truth into my heart. I can see now that the failure of my marriage is not all my fault. I can see that my H's treatment of me is intolerable. I can see that he has broken the covenants of this marriage. I can look at this empty shell marriage without anger or resentment now. I've seen for a long time that my H is unwilling, and perhaps incapable, of participating in a fully functional relationship. I can accept it without anger or resentment now. I can still love my H... and seek out a separate roof at the same time. Not that I've told him yet... I'm still a conflict avoider! I got another book by Patricia Evans today. I hope it'll give me the inspiration and the umph to bring about some action that matches my words.

Heart, glad to see you back and still growing.<P>Pah, I have been praying for you. Missed your posts, crap aside, I hope you found some part of your vacation to enjoy. Take care of YOU....<P>Now Heart, you said some stirring things about knowing truth vs. seeing truth. The difference is acceptance. When I know, then I begin to work toward the necessary change. I am so glad to know that God has already made it alright for you. You are in my prayers....

Hi LH,<P><BR>Sounds like you are trying to make the right decision. I, like you, find solitude in my car. It must come from the fact that we might not get it in the house. <P>I am praying for you LH that you will hear the message loud and clear and find the strenght to follow through. I would opt for Plan B. In his condition he is the only one who can drag himself out. It is hard to watch someone you love falter and allow themselves to fall into a pit but sometimes that is excatly what they need.<P>Ymon -- Thanks for the continued prayers. I have not found out about the job yet. I am getting nervouse. I pray almost every hour. I really need it. Oh well it is in Gods hand. How are you doing?<P>PS sorry LH did not mean to take over your thread.