That was a wonderful example Frstd, one that could have been written from my home, except I am the bill payer and H is the money spender and debt-free so far is not in his vocabulary. Your quiet alternative responses are exactly what Dan Allendar is talking about, quietly speaking the truth and walking away when necessary. That you blew it and was sucked into responding similarly was a human thing and as Paul says in Romans, Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! <p>Our desire is to not live by the sinful nature but to learn and develop the Spirit controlled mind so that we will be able to put away the misdeeds of the sinful nature. Praise God for the part you got right, confess and repent of the part you have not gained control over and keep up the good work! <p>I had counsel this week with a godly woman who put temporary separation for the purpose of reconcilliation into a much different perspective for me. My H has multiple issues that is he refuses to deal with, instead he chooses to blame me for all his problems in the world. As long as I am around he makes me the target, with the attack, jazz and perhaps I need to temporarily remove myself so that I am not the target and to further allow God to deal with him. <p>H has said that if I ever left, he would divorce me, end of discussion, which is not biblical...do I remain as the target just to keep him from sinning in this area when he is sinning in so many other areas by the abuse, etc. I guess I am seeing that I need to act by faith, to take the steps to protect myself and if my H does indeed to follow with such a thing, then the spiritual issue is between him and the Lord. I feel like I am getting in the way of the Lord...<p>My H has so many good qualities when he is not being a jerk. I need to continue to learn that soft voice whispered answers or even no answers at all when he is in the unreasonable mode. Though I don't write as often as I used to, I am thankful for you ladies and for this part of the forum. I do not go into any of the other part.<p>Tonight we are going, at my H's suggestion, to a satellite televised conference on marriage. Pray that God will soften both our hearts and that we will hear what He has for us to hear, that condemnation will not enter in and that grace will guard our conversation.<p>Thanks!

Hey SueB,
I bet ya my hubby and I will be viewing the same televised confrence at our church tonight. And it is being held tommorow too(Saturday). We can pray for each other.<p>I am very sick right now. A virus the doc says. Low grade fever, stuffed up/runny nose, sneezing, dizzy, etc, etc. I have only worked 10 hrs this week and have been home the rest of the time sleeping and vegy-ing out. I'll be darned if I am gonna let my flesh, this world or Satan keep me from that conference! I am really not holding out a lot of hope for my hubby to change much because of it, but I hope to learn a lot so that I might be able to gain a better perspective as well as put some very valuable info into practice. <p>Thank you all for hanging in here with me. I appreciate every word, jot and tittle posted here and am blessed each time I read. <p>
God Bless,
Bev

That Tony Evans is pretty awesome! Thought James Dobson is getting old and should have planned his talk better. H doesn't like Dobson and this didn't help any. I look forward to tomorrow...<p>Continue to pray, I am praying for you Bev.

I love Tony Evans! He's on my local station at 7:00 pm M-F. He had a great series on marriage recently. One session talked about the H's biblical responsibility... H's are instructed to love their wives. I was driving & couldn't take notes, but I think the passage is in Corinthians.<p>frstrtd, I'm getting frustrated just trying to think of suggestions for you! Seems to me that your H is the one who's controlling if he expects you to sign mortgage papers that you don't understand. I think I would tell him that I will not sign any legal documents that I don't understand. If he's uncomfortable explaining it, then I'll find my answers elsewhere, but under no circumstances will I be bullied into signing something I don't understand. He can explain or not explain, the choice is up to him. <p>I don't have any experience of my own to rely on. My H was "hands off" in the financial department, which was sort of ok in the beginning. It wasn't until financial difficulties set in (due primarily to his lack of financial contributions to the household) that our downward spiral accelerated. All the responsibilities were falling on me, and to my dismay, so was all the blame for the mess we were in. To have a spouse show interest in the financial health of the household... wow, what a concept! It's one of many things absent in my marriage. I don't know how I turned into his enemy, but I sure got treated like one. <p>btw, my station has "money matters" with Larry Burkette (sp?) from 2:30 to 3:00. frstrtd, if these papers involve loading more debt onto your home, this may be an opportunity to offer a rebuke, Allender style. Funding for internet access is on again off again, but you can listen at www.kbnj.org The formula suggested on money matters is to look at money left after taxes and after tithe. No more than 40% of what's left should go to your housing (that 40% should cover mortgage, utilities, taxes, ... and maybe maintenance and insurance too).

Yea, Tony Evans was the highlight of the whole event, I agree! My H enjoyed the talk by Josh McDowell with the whole love yourself bit. But I don't think Josh took the full concept far enough. What if a person loves themselves with distortion, perversion or dysfunction and then carries that over into their close relationships with others?? No, he didn't take it far enough for me. Left a lot out. One person's concept of nurturing and cherishing may be another persons nightmare...look at "stalkers". I know thats an extreme, but you get the picture. No, it wasn't complete enough for me. <p>I am still very sick , but I sat through it anyway. And I have mixed feelings walking away from it. Partly because I wasn't real impressed with all the material and partly because of what transpired toward the end with my H and I. <p>He told me that the one thing that he lacks from me is forgiveness about the physical abuse he perpetrated upon me over a year ago. He said that he lives in fear that I may call the cops on him at any time now because of his past violent attack on me and it is eating him up inside. I sat there listening knowing that he was fishing for a way out of his own shame and guilt. But I didn't give him the chance. He wants forgiveness without saying he is truely sorry, without saying he was clearly wrong and without showing true repentance. I told him that forgiveness can only come complete from me when he can understand how he has not only been physically abusive but is NOW verbally abusive as well and needs to be aware of it, take responsibility for and sorry for all of his this behavior as well as repentant before I can truely forgive him. Almost immediatly, he tried to turn the tables on me and say that yes, verbal abuse is a problem and that I verbally abuse him. Well, I instantly told him to not change the subject and that the issue was about his abuse problems and what he needs to face about himself and that talking about me was not the issue. And I told him that when he is truely repentant of it all and truely seeks my forgiveness God's way that then I can forgive him. Then before he had a chance to counter, I politly excused myself and went to get some tea. I am still shaking ladies. <p>Any words of enlightenment or encouragement at this time would be greatly appreciated!

I did appreciate Josh McDowell a lot and I think my H couldn't possibly have taken it much stronger than that. Josh echoed what I had shared the other day and while I would have loved to have given my H the rasberry, I know that God would not have been pleased, especially since I have been praying for intervention...I know you are hurting sister, but I also hear bitterness and anger mixed in with the hurt which can keep you from reaping the benefits of the event. My H almost choked when the men were instructed to turn to wives and apologize, etc. He had a hard time looking me in the eye. He insisted on buying some of the videos though so who knows how God will work it out. I see more and more how God wants me to learn softness...more a soft boldness...pretty amazing to me. What personality did you come out? I was a Captain/Steward, only 1 point apart. My H was a navigator and then tied for 2nd between captain and social director... when you think of the comedian's comment that the social director was the anti-christ of the navigator, it hit me once again how torn my H must be. I did understand more about his need for lists...think I will pray on that and see how to best address that.<p>Hugs

We bought the 8 pack of books that were on special. The price was right and we love to read. My H particularly likes the subject about love and food and he has agreed to participate in a small group if we can find one or get one going. That is a big step for both of us. <p>I am a navigator/captain and my H is a captain/navigator. An interesting combo. I have tendencies to be the steward and my H has the social director patterns. We both enjoyed that segment of the seminar. <p>The issue about forgiveness has had me thinking all night. I believe forgiving love is an action not a just a 'thing'. We need to forgive initially for something someone may have done to hurt us so as to not let resentment and bitterness build up and to let the other person know we care about them....but the act of forgiving my H is going to take a lot more time then just the time it takes to say the words "I forgive you". For many years my H has been abusing me emotionally, verbally and physically (throwing things, holes in walls, threats, choke holds, pushes, etc)...just my saying the 3 words "I forgive you" at a time when true repentance and sorrow on my H's part are what is needed to access longlasting and deep forgiveness would only let the destructive cycle continue. <p>God forgives us because Jesus has taken our place and died for our sins...but that forgiveness is only known by us when we truly believe in God, in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit and understand that Jesus died in our place. We need to take a step to get a hold of that forgiveness to make it ours. It is by our sheer action of belief and the further action of following that belief that gives us eternal salvation. We need to act to receive. My H wants to receive from me without taking proper action. <p>I do forgive him for the initial damage he has caused me physically (and he has stopped being so physically violent for about 6 months now) but not for the continuing verbal and emotional battering that he throws my way. He needs to show some real changes before I can completely forgive and trust him again. I am not a monster. I make love to him, I cook dinner and clean the house and do the laundry. I kiss him and hug him. I work hard and give my share of pay toward bills. I laugh and cry with him and I am as loving and caring as a wife can be in my situation, but I also have been stern and clear about where I stand when it comes to his abusive behavior. I am, with as much sensitivity and as lovingly yet as boldly as possible, letting him know that I will no longer tolerate the abusive way he treats my son or myself verbally or emotionally. I will no longer be a victim. <p> I am learning to understand the difference between victimization and sacrifice. A victim has no choice in her circumstances, a sacrificial person choices her circumstances. Jesus chose His circumstances when He sacrificed himself on the cross. I am choosing to stay in the marriage so as to be an example of sacrifice for my H, not to be a victim.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>MT 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.<hr></blockquote><p>This one keeps coming back at me which is why I said aything to you. Trust and forgiveness are two different things. You can by the act of the will, forgive someone but still be cautious and not trust. In fact it is using wisdom to be discerning in those situations. <p>In our group bible study last night we were talking about just this thing, the tendency by many to believe that suffering for Christ is the same as accpeting abusive behavior, etc and I agree totally that God does not want us to suffer in this manner and we do well to set boundaries and clear concise limits. We do though have to remember the grace given to us when we least deserve it... I think of Lizzie and her latest report (Alias) of how she verbalized forgiveness to her previously unfaithful spouse and how that grace just flabbergasted him and how blessed they both were by it. God brings me to tears frequently when I talk to him about all that goes on here and how I am ready to fly the coop and how He reminds me of His steadfastness and His everlasting love even in the midst of darkness.<p>We bought the videos for the food love connection Too bad we weren't closer, we could go through them together. Praying for you.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS FORGIVE HIM." Luke 17:3+4 <hr></blockquote><p>Jesus himself said that if a person repents, then we forgive them. Somehow, we as Christians seem to have gotten the idea that no matter what the offense, we need to forgive immediately because that is what God commands. But look at the fine print, Jesus defines the way to forgive above. First He says we are to rebuke the sinning brother or sister. That means we are to point out to them, hopefully in love, what they did, how it hurt and why it was a sin. Jesus took into account that the person who sinned needs to be held accountable for what they have done or how would they learn and grow? And the person they sinned against needs to be able to know that the offender is sorry. How can a person be truly forgiven unless they understand what they have done, why it was a sin, are sorry for it and then turn from it? There is a whole lot more to forgiveness then just a kind word or two. <p>
I have pointed out to my husband many times, as have others, what his sin is. My husband has shown no true repentance about what he has done physically to me. He said himself that he wants me to forgive him because he is AFRAID that I will call the cops on him again if he ever gets physical or violent-such as throwing things, etc. He has even gone so far as to justify his violent actions by saying I made him do it and it really wasn't that bad and so on. Just a few weeks ago, we witnessed a violent attack of a man on his girlfriend in which I called the cops, and he told a friend" Well we don't know the whole story and she probably provoked him into it anyway". No remorse, no regret, no true repentance. And I live with this man. He has a violent temper and can get so mad that even strangers around him can see that he is raging and want to get out of his path. He has not truly repented of his behavior and goes so far as to justify it as he continues it. Yes, his violent tendencies have subsided a bit for now, but how long will that last without true repentance?<p>I am learning how to not be bitter or resentful as I do as Jesus commands. The key is in understanding. I now understand and even have compassion for my H. I love him anyway, but I do not trust him nor do I allow his rage to interrupt my emotional/spiritual growth. I am learning how to set boundaries and be firm, yet kind. But I cannot forgive until he truly wants forgiveness. I really do not believe that he wants real forgiveness. I believe he just wants to not feel so guilty or afraid, so he thinks that if I say I forgive him, then that will take away his shame. But he hasn't done what Jesus defines in Luke 17:3+4, so how can I truely forgive him? Not just mouth the words, but truely forgive him?

The topic yesterday on Oprah was forgiveness. The stories were amazing and had me in tears. There must be something here I'm not getting. <p>For one thing, I thought I had grieved my marriage and reached the stage of acceptance. I thought I had forgiven my H for the callous disregard and neglect he has shown me over the years. This Friday marks three months of separation. To date his effort toward reconciliation is zero. I try very hard to expect nothing from him. Well, don't ya know, I'm feeling very hurt by his complete lack of effort to salvage our marraige. My feelings of inadequacy are running rampant. The timing coincides with the loss of my parttime job last week. My plate is overflowing with work (self employment) I have difficulty getting done, but still the loss of income hurts, even if my schedule is more manageable. At first I thought the job loss would be a blessing in disguise, that God is making room in my life for something even better. Instead, things just seem more difficult. I can't make any sense out of my sudden feelings of anger. My feelings of inadequacy were extreme at the time of separation, and I was making progress I thought. I feel like I've taken a huge mudslide backwards. Has anyone else gone through something like this?

I guess I wasn't finished. The people on Oprah had forgiven terrible offenses they had suffered at the hands of others. In most cases, the offenders were unrepentent. Is forgiveness supposed to hinge on repentance? I thought Bold Love said to forgive regardless of the offender's status... that it is reconciliation that hinges on repentance.

You know I have been thinking about and praying about my stance on this forgiveness issue, and maybe I am not using the right words to describe what I am going through. <p>Maybe I really have initially forgiven my H for his past, present and future abuses, because I love him so much and want only to do what is right by him. But the only feeble initial human forgiveness I can give is so far removed from the perfect forgiveness that only God Himself can give him that I have not seen it as forgiveness at all. Maybe God is showing me that I need to be wisely safe and graciously patient and as forgiving as I can with him through the offenses so as to live out the only kind of forgiveness I can for my H. I used to forgive so immediately before as if just saying the words was enough to take all the pain away, but I think God is revealing to me a different kind of forgiveness. Maybe that is why I have not been calling it forgiveness, but I am beginning to think that it is. It is just a more mature kind that is being lived out as I remain in the marriage.<p>As for your dilemma Lonesome Heart, I feel for you. It must be so hard to let go. I just think about it and am in tears. I pray that Gods comfort is surrounding you through this trial. As for the anger that has come back, that is only natural for someone in your circumstances. It has only been 3 months, it takes time.<p>God knows we can only handle so much at a time...so like a gentle flower, He is only allowing one pedal at a time to unfold. And as each beautiful pedal unfolds to add to the sweet aroma and perfect color of your uniqueness, there is for a short time a bit of discomfort that comes with that unfolding. This too will pass and before you know it, you will be in full bloom! <p>I went through some very heart rending, emotional breakdown experiences that put me in a mental ward for 16 days just 2 years ago. Then I had a very horrible depression for 14 months afterward. I thought I was gonna die....but God brought me through it with comfort and healing. He will do the same for you my dear Sister.<p>God Bless,
Bev<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: frstrtd ]</p>

Forgiveness comes in many flavors. Each has its own validity. There are probably several more varieties of forgiveness. <p>1. You hurt me. <p>I don't know if you meant to.<p>You did not say a word when I brought it up.<p>To give you the benefit of the doubt, I forgive you and will go on almost as if nothing ever happened, but with eyes wide open.<p>2. You hurt me. <p>You even admit that you intended to cause me pain. <p>You have apparantly repented and asked me for forgiveness.<p>I forgive you, and will go on almost as if nothing ever happened, but with eyes wide open.<p>3. You hurt me.<p>You won't admit it, I believe it was intentional, you have made no move to apologize, repent or anything.<p>I understand that you did it from your weaknesses.<p>I forgive you, but will protect myself from future repetitions of the hurtful behavior. I will not gossip or punish you, but won't be as vulnerable to you either. I will not burn my insides by holding a grudge about it either.

4. You hurt someone I care about.<p>I will forgive you for the hurt that spilled over to me only if
a. you repent and make full restitution to the hurt person, and
b. apologize to me for the incidental damage I suffered. <p>I cannot forgive on behalf of the hurt person.<p>I will see to it that earthly justice is carried out in legal ways insofar as I am able to.<p>I will then let it go. Or as some would say, "forgive" you, in that I will not carry a grudge, because "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Hi Ladies,<p>Please pray for me. I am going away this week-end to a monastery for time alone with God. <p>As many of you are, I am trying to choose righteous living in an environment of hostility and little love. Too often I have not responded righteously. There is so much hurt and resentment built up in this marriage. I feel so grieved as I look at the condition of our marriage. The Lord is bringing me to repentance for my own behavior and softening my heart. Still, as Karenna mentioned above - I sense I need to protect myself from my husband's selfishness and dishonesty. I need discernment in how to do that in a godly way. <p>This week in my Bible study we learned that endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time.<p>"Let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entagles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, FIXING our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12: 1-3<p>Please pray for my endurance - so I may choose righteous and holy living.<p>Bless you all. You are an encouragement to me as I see you all - as a cloud of witnesses - also choosing to lay aside sin and not turn from God.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:
This week in my Bible study we learned that endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time.<hr></blockquote><p>Yukko! Where does it say that? Any chance that passage is being taken out of context? Second opinion please! (if wishful thinking is a sin, I'll may never get to heaven!)<p>I wish you all the best for this weekend SLW. While you're in the monastery, my H could use a few prayers for a softer heart. <p>Today has been a tumultuous day. An overdraft notice came on Tuesday. It's a joint account that I don't write checks on anymore. Yet, somehow, H was convinced the overdraft was my fault. When I talked to him on Tuesday about it, he wanted me to call the bank. I said the activity on the account is yours. I think you should call the bank. Today he was hot under the collar because I hadn't called the bank. Venom was spewing through that phone line! He accused me of being money hungry, of being sneaky, of intending to screw him out of his equity in our home. I told him he doesn't know me very well if he thinks that. As for being sneaky, I repeated what I've told him before... I share details of my life with people who show interest. I suggested (well, I was yelling at that point) that he consult with me if he wants to know what I think, what I feel, what my plans are. Without talking to me first, any conclusions he draws are a silent guessing game he plays, and his guesses are all wrong. In the three months we've been separated, he hasn't shown any interest in me or my welfare. Then he started in on a laundry list of all his problems. I responded by saying, why should I care about you, when you show no interest in me? <p>Then he threatened to have me thrown in federal prison. According to him, I stole his gun. I removed the gun from our home last year as part of my safety plan. The gun is in safekeeping (he claims it's ruined once it's placed in a firesafe). I prepared a statement that he could gain access to his gun after a professionally trained veteran center counsellor assured me that he is not a danger to himself or others. All he sees is his constitutional right to bear arms being violated. In response to his threat, I told him go ahead. I'd be more than happy to have a public record stating my reasons for taking that action. At the time, I was more concerned about him harming himself than I was my own safety, although I knew better than to rule out the potential for him being violent. If he wants that a matter of public record, FINE! <p>He told me we're getting a divorce, that there's no way he would ever be interested in getting back together with me. I told him that's the best news I've had all day. In the meanest, nastiest voice I've heard from him, he said "I hate you I hate you I hate you" and hung up. <p>Things have calmed down in the meantime. I was quaking in my boots there for a while, and I tried to remember Allender's instructions on how to rebuke with strength and kindness. How'd I do?

LH-<p>Confronting a la Allender has to be from a position of love and compassion. No selfishness can be involved. Attitude and motivation is everything. <p>The written text doesn't convey your tone, smile, warmth or charity. Normally it doesn't include yelling, although an increase in volume doesn't necessarily preclude its validity either.<p>How do you think you did? Grade yourself line by line when you have enough distance from the event to evaluate it.

Lonesome Heart,
In answer to your question, about <p>"endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time." <p>
I believe that the &#8216;race&#8217; (Heb 12:1) Paul is talking about here takes into account the physical situations we find ourselves in, but more importantly and most overlooked, Paul is referring to the spiritual situations we become involved with. There is so much going on that we do not see. The spiritual battle needs to be 'endured' and fought on different terms then the physical skirmishes we encounter. And we need the more powerful tool of prayer to 'run the race' with the kind of effectiveness that God promises we can have. <p>For one person this may mean going to a monastery to pray for a long period of time and to be alone with God to decide the best thing to do. For another it means using prayer and the knowledge and the wisdom that God has prepared in the book Bold Love, and telling your spouse the hard things that they don't want to hear. It is unique and different for each one of our circumstances. <p>First, look carefully at the above quote and you will see that it says..."CAN MEAN remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God).&#8221;<p> Each one of us must access our situation and see if we are to remain or not. That is why prayer is sooooo important. "Be still and know that I am God" is not just a command to stand and be in awe of His greatness. It means to be still, in our minds, in our hearts and be ready to LISTEN to what God is telling us to do and then HEAR it with clarity. How often have we prayed for help, only to be so blind by our own impatience and desires, that we miss the help God is sending us? Because we are too busy trying to fix things ourselves. Be still and wait for the help God is going to give. Sometimes the answer to our prayers is immediate or just plain NO, but most of the time the answer to our prayers is WAIT. We need to excersize the power of the mightiest tool God has given us too not only endure, but to fight the spiritual battles that ensnare us. And only half of the prayer tool is being used if we JUST pray. The other half of the prayer tool is up to God to wield. It is His grace, His mercy, and His answer, His ways that we wait for to complete how the prayer tool is used. And if we are not 'still' enough long enough to hear Him, we may never know what kind of power He can wield in our lives. We will go off and do our own thing and never realize the full potential of being still and KNOWING God is God.<p>SLW, you are courageous to try to "choose righteous living in an environment of hostility and little love". We are all built with different endurance levels. That you are going away to a quiet place to seek God's ways can be more uncertain and disquieting then just throwing in the towel and calling the marriage quits or leaving it alone the way it is.<p>And Lonesome Heart, talking to your husband in truth, in love and with firmness is not an easy task at all. It can be a whole lot more stressful and disconcerting then remaining in the abusive situation with a person as rebellious as you have described your husband to be. <p>We each have a separate path to walk. But if we choose to walk it with Jesus as our Lord and Savior and God as our Abba Father, as long as we are open to hear God speak in our hearts, we will each walk it as children of the Light, but we will each have to walk it differently then the other. God built us that way. He accepts us that way. <p>Hope this helps,
God Bless,
Bev

Thank you Karenna and frstrtd for your responses. How do I think I did yesterday? The situation defused quickly, so in that respect I think I did well. While I did raise my voice, in terms of "tone" I don't think I had any hatred or venom. H was blaming me for the overdraft. I asked him to explain how it could be. I told him I've written no checks, was under the impression his last statement balanced, and the only activity I've contributed to account is putting money IN to cover the automatic payment for health insurance and the monthly service charge. His tone was full of hatred as he claimed he would "prove it's my fault, and he's gonna make me pay and he's gonna make me sorry." <p>Again, in retrospect, I see myself falling into a familiar dysfunctional dance. He paints himself blameless, and I rise to the challenge of "proving" I'm not the bad guy. I went to the bank, made a deposit, got a printout of activity since the last statement. Lo and behold, the checks that he wrote caused the overdraft. We went through each item over the phone. I didn't have any tone in my voice that was accusatory, derrogatory, or "how could you do something so stupid." Lord knows I've made every bookkeeping mistake humanly possible in my checking accounts over the years. We determined the extent of his deficit without any angry outbursts or disrespectful judgments. I paused to see what he would say next. Silence. I asked, "Can we agree that these overdrafts were not my fault?" He stopped short of actually saying "it was my fault," but he did agree. More silence. I said, "I think you owe me an apology." (In the old days, I would have said a very sarcastic "you're welcome" after he failed to thank me for my assistance.)<p>He said he was sorry, with a but. He was sorry for all the mean and nasty things he said, but he's so irritable from the heat and no ac, and he has so many bug bites that he's totally miserable (he works on a farm and lives in a bug infested house). From what he described about his itching, sounds like crabs to me. But that's a whole nuther topic. In the meanwhile, I'm not quite sure what to think of his apology. Actually, I do know what I think. I think signs of repentance are absent. Now I'm wondering if I should attempt further communication, or allow him to treat the incident with silent disregard. I feel a desire to tell him that I am not his enemy and I don't like being treated like one.

Congrats Lonesome Heart,
I see so much maturaty in the way you handled the situation. It seems as if you are doing your best to stay focused and not let the emotions run rampant. I am impressed!<p>As for his living situation, I have no idea how he got to where he is, but if all he is doing is complaining, do you show any compassion in your voice or words for his plight?? He may be fishing for sympothy and there is nothing wrong with that, we all need some now and again. But if he is just having a self-pity party and inviting you in, that's a different story. <p>As for the repentence thing, you know him best. If he really is having no real repentence, then you may need to continue to keep your distance otherwise you get into playing the same dysfunctional game all over again. And as you so astutely pointed out, you know what that dance is like and your too wise now to continue dancing it over and over again. <p>I do suggest praying for wisdom in all your words and actions with your H right now. God is giving you knowledge that is growing you up leaps and bounds. Let him temper it with His will and power and you can be sure He is walking the path with you in all you do.<p>Take care and God Bless,
Bev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by frstrtd:
As for his living situation, I have no idea how he got to where he is, but if all he is doing is complaining, do you show any compassion in your voice or words for his plight?? He may be fishing for sympothy and there is nothing wrong with that, we all need some now and again. But if he is just having a self-pity party and inviting you in, that's a different story.
<hr></blockquote><p>Over the last year or so I've discovered that I see the best results when I give my H choices, lessons I took to heart when Boundaries in Marriage finally penetrated my brain. Last October I told him I wanted a separation unless he agreed to get counselling at the veteran center. He vehemently opposed the idea, said they're dangerous and evil people there. He's been drastically underemployed the entire time I've known him, a common condition for vets suffering from untreated ptsd. Had he sought treatment years ago, perhaps living with him would be tolerable, and we probably wouldn't be filing bankruptcy right now. Financial concerns are important, but I try to keep them in the lower rungs of my priorities. When I finally put my foot down, I believed he needed the treatment even more than the financial benefits. I told him he could leave or I could leave, but living with more of the same is not an option. <p>I met with a counselor at the vet center myself to scope out his options. Full disability is $2000/month, and counselling is a prerequisite. During the session, C asked about drug abuse, physical abuse, is he suicidal. I told her no (with some "buts"), and she said she could guarantee that they all think about suicide. The C told me in no uncertain terms to remove the weapon from our home. Later, after I followed her advice, I must say I felt like I was getting mixed signals. (She described a patient who worried every day that he'd have a flashback and hurt someone. Her response was, you haven't harmed anyone in 30 years. Why would today be any different. I'm thinking, well, why did she tell me to ditch the gun when H has never physically harmed me, never threatened harm, and never overtly said he's suicidal) C freely admitted the guys who wait so long rarely improve by much when they finally seek treatment. I found myself wondering if that statement reflects on the quality of treatment or the difficult nature of ptsd. But I digress. <p>H said he would leave, but he needed a couple of weeks. I said ok. Two weeks came and went. Status quo. I repeat my request. He asks for two more weeks. More status quo. I told him I'd start packing the next day because I meant what said about wanting a separation. If he doesn't leave, I will. He said again he'd leave. Well, he calls his boss and quits without notice. Said he's moving to Houston. This, from the man who wouldn't drive there by himself because the traffic stresses him out too much. He stayed with a friend for 10 days and asked to come back to talk. He got his job back (boss is VERY understanding). His (our) employer also has housing, but no openings at that time, which is fast approaching Christmas. H went back to pretending nothing is wrong. I request separation again. The second time he left, he slept in his car for 10 days. It was very hard to stand firm by my request, but I didn't back down. After a week, the effects are impacting the employer. Employer evicts a renter who's behind on their rent to make room for my H. I let H return to the house until his housing was available, which I thought would be a few days but turned into a month. The "real" separation began on January 26th. His house has no heat, no ac, no stove, no refrigerator, and no hot water because it runs on gas and H is convinced the place will blow up if the gas turns on. <p>His living conditions are miserable. If he sought the veteran disability benefits to which he is entitled, it would be a different story. The choice is his. I continue to be amazed by his choices. From what I can tell, he'd rather live in abject poverty than seek the assistance that he needs and deserves. Living with him was draining the life force right out of me. I'm doing my best to pull myself up by the bootstraps, hoping he would join me. Doesn't seem to be working out that way. <p>Had I known about Bold Love years ago, who knows where we'd be right now. I think I've given up hope of having a healthy marriage with this man, but I haven't given up on him. Does that make any sense? I might dance with him a few more times while the bk runs its course. It's too soon for no contact. I've made great strides in setting down responsibilities that aren't mine, and Friday I was there for him to pick up the pieces. Just couldn't help myself! It was my way of showing sympathy and compassion for his plight. It is, and has been, a one-way street. I don't know if picking up his pieces was the right way to show compassion or not. For this time, I think I did ok, but there'll be a next time and I want to do even better. Don't quite know what that would look like.