My husband refuses to associate his affair with our divorce. He says she had nothing to do with it, even though he is still heavily involved with her. He has completely put all the responsibility for the divorce on me, even though he didn't leave until I caught him cheating. At first he admitted he had cheated on me, but now he says he didn't sleep with her until the divorce was final. Early in this mess, I asked him if he would have left if I hadn't caught him. He said no. Now he says he would have left soon anyway. Is this typical?<P>AD

I am sure it is. My H insisted at one point that he didn't leave me for her, that he knew her but didn't "date" until after he left - even though when he moved out he immediately went to stay with her. He must have thought I was a complete moron if he thought I would believe him, especially since he knew I had gotten her phone number from his cell phone previously. The therapist confirmed that he had been having an affair when I told her I'd found out - when I told him he accused her of lying!<P>He told our son that he "didn't want to have had to get a divorce", and has accepted no responsibility except that he "made a mistake marrying me".

AD,<P>Yep.. Yep.. Yep..<P>My W did the same thing...<P>My W also wants me to do all the leg work on the divorce... (so maybe I'll pay for the whole thing!)<P>Only difference in my case... W had to admit adultery early on... e-mail evidence I had was overwhelming...<P>They have been abducted by aliens... haven't they?!<P>Jim

Hi Already Divorced,<BR> <BR> It sounds like your H could be the poster boy for the Private Lies book. Frank Pittman says that the betrayer can't connect the affair to the divorce and that in long standing marriages, it is almost always infidelity that wrecks an otherwise good marriage. The betrayers do the damage and then try to justify it all and run and along the way try to convince everyone else how bad it was.<BR> How are you managing? Are you getting any stronger? If it's any consolation your H will surely crash in the future......Lu

Yeah, it's a common thing to say. My Wife told me wankboy (om) had NOTHING to do with her leaving me & the kids and moving across the country to live, work & move around with him.<P>"I love you kids with all my heart."<BR>Then why couldn't you stay in town if he had nothing to do with it?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

AD,<P>Two words come to mind: DRUG ADDICT<P>My beautiful W is the addict, the OB is the dope.<P>Jim nailed it, they have been abducted by aliens.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Although we are together and working on the marriage now, when we were in the extremely early stages(we've still got miles to go) Arik said that if I couldn't get over the "no contact" thing then our failed marriage would be my fault. I think they get so caught up in feelings of guilt that they want to place blame anywhere but on themselves.

"Oh dear....of course the marriage was bad, that is why I had to go out and have the affair (16 months ongoing prior to discovery). It was just a red herring to all the problems in the marriage!!!" is what I was told. Of course the reason for the affair was all my fault and the fact that I am divorcing him is my fault and has nothing to do with his actions since discovery etc.<BR>Betrayers often have to play the "victim" and distribute a lot of blame elsewhere in order to continually justify their actions<P>Does not make it any more truthful or sensible

Typical, Typical, Typical!!! My H denied his affair, until he could no longer deny it when I dug up the truth. He said he had to leave me "to find out why he was so unhappy". What a lie!!! Read Frank Pittman's "Private Lies" - it is one of the best books on the subject. Many adulterers who are unable to take responsibility for their actions try to tell themselves, their parents, friends, and especially the OP that "I was not happy for a long time/the marriage was really over for a long time before this" , etc. in order to justify their affair(s). Funny, isn't it, that they forgot to tell their H/W that the marriage was over!!!! It is so typical that one almost thinks that the wayward spouses must read the same book to find their lines/excuses!!

It seems that they are all cast from the same mold.<P>My W, after my discovery of her affair, said that the OM had nothing to do with where we were at in our marriage.<P>The fact that the affair had been going on for 6 months and she had withdrawn from me over that period of time from what was a fairly good relationship both emotionally and sexually seemed to have no attachment.<P>The saddest part, I think, is that they honestly believe this to be true themselves. <P>It may be the way their mind copes with the guilt that they feel over their actions. I guess there has to be some reconciliation within themselves.<P>What do you think?<P>Fairenough

Fairenough,<P>That it what bothers me the most. I think they do believe everything they say and I am afraid my H will always feel justified with what he is doing.<P>AD

Yes Yes Yes My H did the same thing and still does. Everything is my fault. When I found out about the affair he said I saved his life. Now adays, I just made it miserable. He tells all kinds of lies and acts like he was the victim of abuse......from me. HaHa. He forgets and lies in front of the children and since they know the truth, he pushes himself further and further away from them. They can not stand to be around him and he blames it on me "brainwashing" them. I wish he would just look in the mirror, then maybe he would see just what monster is doing all the damage and ruining all of our lives.

Already divorced<P>I believe that whilst they are still in the emotional high with the OP that it matters little what is said to them by whoever as they have formed their justification in their own minds and nothing will change that.<P>Once the high romance is over however I believe they may see things in a different perspective. I'm sure that this causes the eventual breakdown of the relationship with the OP as things become clearer as to the mess that has developed.<P>Unfortunately who knows how long that will take in each case?<P>A friend of mine that was involved in an affair told me that he had advise from all kinds of people during the romantic phase, it meant absolutely zip to him at the time but all became very clear when it fell apart.<P>Hang in there.

AD,<P>I don`t post here very often, but this thread interested me alot...<P>My ex. and I were most definitly having our problmes.. Through out our whole marriage, I was the one to make all the moves on helping our marriage get as far as it did.. I was the one who always broke the ice, and the one who had to finally say, "we need to talk" and try and creat some kind of compromise, and kiss and make up.. I had grown tired of being the only one working on this marital relationship.. so the last yr of our marriage, I finally started to mirror his personality back to him.. and this is where it lead us... seperated for a yr, and paper work pending..<P>Now I am in no way!! taking any of the blame here.. I did all I could for as long as I could.. even after finding out about the OW.. SO! I KNOW IN MY HEART, IT WAS NOT MY FAULT AT ALL, WHAT SO EVER..!! <P>My ex. also admited to me, when I approached him and demanded the truth.. he wanted out, and hadn`t started any thing with this OW (perdue!!) yet... but that he wanted to persue this woman, being he use to know her and never had the chance back then... (mind you she is *still* married) this was/is and old freind from high school, that was his ex wifes best freind, back then... (oh yes I was his second marraige) H, and I met up with OW, and I even started to socialize with her and her husband, before my ex left me... (heck, I even entertained her and her husband and daughter, and daughters fiancee` at my house, last summer) My ex, and OW, jumped at the opportunity for each other, being they both thought they were so unhappy in their marriages.. WHAT PERFECT TIMING FOR THEM BOTH...!!!<P>any way, my point is, that in most (not all) seperations/divorces, there *ARE* reasons that they do happen... and me and my ex, most defintly *WERE* having problems... I knew we were both unhappy, but I also, felt it was a one way marriage for so long... and it seemed it had always depended on me to hold things together for us..<BR>He left me when I was going through some very bad times, with loads of things going on in my life, that I really needed him there for.. but this OW, had already sunk her teeth into him... and he responded to her, with pleasure... <P>I will always KNOW..! that he is the one with the problems, and just doesn`t have the ability to talk and get out all his ill feelings.. he went around telling every one but me, he didn`t love me for the last 3 yrs of marriage... what a guy huh!! never once did he take the time to reveal this to me... never once..! <P>I always tell freinds and family, exactly how I am feeling.. with total 100% honesty and that was another thing.. he hated hearing any thing *negative* anymore.. so he now chooses to run away from it all, instead.. not my fault, once again... <P>I am, and always will be, better half, because I am the willing party between us, here.. he is not.. and that is all there is to it.. There is a name for this, and it is called self indulgence... <P>sorry for such a long post...! I do still get so angry, and can write about this stuff for ever.. I promise, though, that this is the end... <P>AV<BR>

Already Divorced-<P>Many points of view on your particular issue. John M. Gottman, Ph.D., One of the country's foremost relationship experts believes in his recent book "The Seven Principles For Making Marriage Work" that when couples have issues and relationship problems that are not acknowledged, discussed with each other and joint efforts to solve together for a "Win - Win" out come...then a marriage is over time very likely to fail.<P>Gottman goes on to say, "Sometimes a couple at this stage of marriage will come for counseling. On the surface it may seemlike nothing much is wrong. They don't argue or act contemptuous or stonewall. They don't do much of anything. They talk calmly and distantly about their relationship and their conflicts. An inexperienced therapist could easily assume that their problems don't run very deep. But actually, one or both of them has already disengaged emotionally from the marriage....some people leave a marriage literally, by divorcing. Others do so by leading parallel lives together. Which ever the route, there are four final stages that signal the death knell of a elationsip.<P>1. You see your marital problems as severe<BR>2. Talking things over seems useless, You try to solve problems on your own.<BR>3. You start leading parallel lives-Polarizations sets in.<BR>4. Loneliness sets in.<P>When a couple gets to the last stage, one or both partners may have an affair. BUT AN AFFAIR IS USUALLY A SYMPTOM OF A DYING MARRIAGE, NOT THE CAUSE! The end of that marriage could have been predicated long before either spouse strayed."<P>mrrlk<P>

mrrlk,<BR>I don't agree. I have read far to many stories where the betrayer continued to act like he/she loved the betrayed (and actions speak louder than words) right up until he started the relationship with the OP. Even many cases where the betrayer himself said there were no major problems in the relationship. <P>All the stages you listed often don't happen until after the affair has started. One would assume that stage #2, "talking it over seems useless" would require that there had been at least some attempt to talk it over, and in many cases that never happened. There may have been problems in the marriage; there probably are in most marriages; but if they were severe enough to cause the marriage to fail, many marriages would fail without affairs.<P>If affairs didn't occur unless the marriage were dying, why do almost all long-term marriages that end in divorce involve infidelity? Why wouldn't many marriages end without one of the partners getting involved with someone else?<P>In many cases the problems are not so much with the relationship as with the betrayer. Frank Pittman said that often the betrayer is looking for someone "he hasn't hurt yet", someone who admires him, when he is feeling like a failure.

Hi there,<P> I agree with Nellie.....and in fact Frank Pittman disagrees with Gottman's theories. He says usually one person is in an affair and then the marriage becomes truly awful....the lies, secrets, withdrawl undermine the once functioning marriage. He claims there are some what he considers "awful" marriages with no infidelity and the people will stay together.Very rarely do couples in established marriages divorce without infidelity.......Lu

Nellie1 & Lu you both point out some important imformation. I was providing what I had read so far in Gottman's recent book to give AD additional information that related to her specific question.<P>Nellie1 - I have also read where the betrayer acted like he/she love the betrayed right up until the affair started. I have also read that many times an affair came about in a relationhip after issues, problems went unacknowledged and were not addressed for a considerable amount of time. An interesting questioin...if you consider the "Emotional Needs" that Dr. Harley, Jr. outlines as part of what keeps couples on the road to "Affair Proof their marriages, how would you think both betrayed and betrayer (after discovery) would honestly comment how each was truly being met (or not being met) prior to the affair?<P>I'm not aware of the exact number regarding..."why do almost all long-term marriages that end in divorce involve infidelity?" Do you happen to know what that % is, I've been trying to search around after I read your post to better understand that number.<P>Something I did find that is related and interesting...Peggy Vaughan, Ph.D. at dearpeggy.com just completed a research survey on affairs and her "general" numbers (if I remember my college statistics class/chi squared stuff, ug!)seem to point out that of her respondents, both men/women,betrayed/betrayer...close to 75% stay with their partner after the affair and remain married vs 25% that do not. Numbers and raw data was just recently posted to her site.<P>Lu-<BR>I'd really like to learn more about information you shared, (thank you) from Frank Pittman. Any specific book of his you suggest before I go searching on the book sites?<P>Nellie1 & Lu-<BR>From your exprience and what information and knowledge you have gained after each of your situations, do you feel that in the majority of cases the affair is the primary "Earthquake" in the marriage that is the event that starts the breakdown and eventual failure of what was once a "Health" marriage?<P>mrrlk

Hi Mrrllk,<BR> <BR> Hope I got your initials right!...The book by Frank Pittman is "Private Lies" and is excellent and another of his is "Grow Up" .<BR>In "Private Lies" on pg.228 in the chapter Infidelity and Divorce he explains the infidelity and divorce connection , ....there's alot of info there but generally he claims a marriage without infidelity rarely breaks up after it's established(kids etc) but a marriage with infidelity will have a hard time weathering the everyday strains of life. One person is unfaithful , wrecks the marriage and then flees the wreckage.....<BR> In my personal case, yes, I could've been more loving , more attentive but honestly it was a good marriage with wonderful kids(4). My H felt lonely and depressed (could've been midlife) and the affair was the fix....even he will admit this, although when the affair was discovered at first, we had a "horrible,awful" marriage(according to him). The various counselors we went to tried to understand his point of view about the "terrible marriage" and seem bewildered. The whole thing is very hard to sort out, I take some blame for being complacent in the marriage but I think so much was about HIM.....hope this helps....what is your story? I'll look at your profile.....Lu

I read somewhere (lots the source, it was on the internet. Might have even been this site) that the number of divorces involving a third party (waiting in the wings or involved) is something like 90%. Especially if counseling is declined. That is a major indicator. Makes sense when one considers how much higher the "affair" rate is than the "divorce" rate. The other 10% are mostly made up of cases of "serious" abuse or incapacity. (Not the kind of "verbal abuse" popular these days. In my opinion that stuff is pretty hard to sort out and both people usually end up looking like both the victim and the aggressor.)<P>I personally don't believe that anybody divorces unless they think they have somewhere better to go. Why in the hell would you trade the devil you know for the great unknown? Your marriage would have to be pretty bad. Really bad. Fact is, most people aren't that different, and you are just trading one (bad or good, probably both) relationship for another.<P>I think that Gottman stuff is just a bunch of self-justifying crap. It just victimizes the victim even further. If the relationship was over, why is there an affair before it ends? Fact is the relationship was better than the alternative (being single). That is why the leaver waited until a "better" opportunity came along. Otherwise the person would have left without an affair, and just kind of moved on single. I think almost everybody prefers to do it the way people switch jobs: You don't give notice you are leaving one until you have another. It's only if you get fired that you pound the pavement unemployed.<P>I think you have to be careful with self help books and what not. People like Gottman write for money, and he writes primarily what his target audience wants to read. (To be fair, Pittman does exactly the same thing.) There will always be lots of cheaters out there who need justification, so his work provides a "cheat sheet" of handy, self-effacing, blame shifting crap. I don't believe anything unless it requires people (both parties) to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions. Saying "the relationship was effectively over when I had my affair" is doing anything but that. Define "over". Who gets to decide what "over" means? The cheater? Why not the betrayed? Why not a third party?<P>Typically in North America a judge decides when a relationship is over, not the cheater. If you have (or had) a new lover and no separation agreement, the problem is you, not the relationship. As Plato said (quoting Aristotle I believe), "The actions define the man." Words really are meaningless. If you want to really figure out what happened, look at what the parties involved did, not what they said about it afterwards. Words are easy to control and can be designed to manipulate. They can even be used to distort a person's understanding of reality. But the "real" reality still exists, and the actions that are part of that reality can only come from the "real" person.<P>If you keep your mind sufficiently open, there will always be someone to come along and fill it full of crap for you.<BR>