I've been lurking a lot lately. Haven't been posting. It just felt like I had to step back for a while. To let things settle down.<P>I've found that the MB website is my lifeblood. It gives me a place to vent, encouragement, guidance, hope. The TOW stuff just gave me the "willies". But, I found that if I spend too much time here at any given stretch, I start to wallow (sp?) in my own suffering. So, I've tried to make my stays more infrequent and of a shorter duration.<P>The time away gave me some hope. In a strange sort of way, I refocused my energies toward rebuilding my relationship with my W. I took some advice (thanks, Falsely Accused) to try to regain my confidence. To try to live my life. To find some humor.<P>I even thought things were going well for a while. I went out with my W -- we looked into each others eyes -- just for a minute or two. But, it was such a step! We made it through events, dinner, etc without getting at each other. (For 15+ years of marriage, we never screamed at each other. Of course, that change a few months ago.) I tried not to LB -- even with given some great opportunities. Plan A all the way!<P>I think that it's all changing for the worse now. Emotional attachements don't seem to be coming back. My W doesn't touch me. No kisses, hugs. No backrub. Not even a playful punch in the arm. Zip! No sex -- haven't had that for a while. I'll take a small victory: a hug. It's not offered, and I'm reluctant to offer it since she has clearly distanced herself. We're merely living under the same roof, sleeping in the same bed, parents to the same children.<P>Super Bowl Sunday we went to a party at her friends house. These friends comprise of some adults she met through our kid's sports league. Through the games, a small group of these adults grew closer. Although I have known these adults in passing for a while, my W had grown quite close. E-mails, dinners, lunches, going out for drinks, etc. This was the first time I was actually asked to join them.<P>The distance between my W and I was really clear at this event. I was the ONLY spouse there -- (1 (un)happily married man, 1 divorced man, 1 divorcing man, 1 single man, 1 divorced female). In short, a really supportive group given our situation!<P>The entire evening, I held open the spot next to me for my W to sit. All evening, she denied the offer, only to sit on the other side of the room between two of her friends. Many opportunities arose, each time with her sitting anywhere but near me.<P>All evening, she conversed happily with her friends, trading private jokes, playfully pushing or hugging them, sharing laughs. When she went to get a drink, she asked her friends if they wanted one -- never once asked me. The body language left no mistake... <P>IT'S OVER.<P>An almost eery calm has taken over me. I think that I've actually grown to accept that she "doesn't love me anymore" and "dosn't believe that I love her". Although I was up for most of the night, trying to figure what life would REALLY be like without her, what would happen with the kids, the house, everything -- it's all starting to make sense. <P>I just don't think it's going to work for us.<P>My youngest has a birthday fast approacing. I don't want to give him the memory of his parents splitting up at that time. I think I'm going to wait a month or so. He'll take it the hardest.<P>My oldest is an adolescent. Great kid. I pray that she'll remain one with all this.<BR>She's close to her mom's friends. I don't want to break the news -- I'm convinced they don't want my marriage to work out.<P>My daughter "sides" with her mother, although deep down, I know she's most like me. <P>Maybe things will improve. I'm going to try to remain positive, but I'm also a realist.<P>A lot of you have been so supportive of me through my stay here. I can only hope and pray that your spouse is more devoted to making the marriage work instead of watching it roll over and die. I'll be lurking, maybe posting, and always thinking that you guys are stronger or luckier (or a little of both) than I've been.<P>Chin Up!<P>--keystone

Keystone,<P>What can I say to you! I sat here and read your post and cried all the way through it. Things for me are no better so there will be no words of wisdom from me this time. I have been wondering how things were going for you. I too have been lurking lately. I was going to post to you this week just to find out how things were. I'm really sorry to hear things are not working out. I like you don't have much hope for my relationship anymore. <BR> <BR>I'm glad to hear that you took some of my advice and at least tried to use it in a positive way. All you can do is try and make yourself a better person, more confident person in the end. No matter what happens I feel with our situations that I have learned from you and I hope you feel the same. <P>I have been trying so hard on my part lately. I haven't had contact with my old HS friend(OM) in probably 4 weeks. I had made up my mind that I really wanted to try and give this marriage an all out effort. There was no withdrawals on my part from the OM so I don't know how far into the EA I was or even if it was that now. I do think maybe your W is a bit further along than I was. <P>I have not been LBing and trying to fill as many of his emmotional needs as possible. Not that he even once tried to fulfill any of mine. I even went so far as to fulfill his his need for sex. I now feel used, because I gave him what he wanted and he was nice for about a week or so. The minute something happens hes all over me telling me I'm wrong and yelling at me. As my D put it last night(when all H*ll broke loose here) he is a Mr. Know it all, but in truth knows very little. Its very hard to live with someone like this.<P>My H's hours have been cut back from both jobs(not his choice). He has been home more lately than ever before. You would think this would be something positive in our lives. Instead it has made things worse. He has been miserable. The girls are miserable. I just don't see anything positive with this.<P>Something happened here this past weekend where my H downloaded something and we wound up with a virus in our computer. My D has a friend who is extremely bright with computers and he took me step by step as to how to get it out without losing everything on the computer. Well, let me tell you this has started an all out war here, because a 15yr old knew more than my H and he didn't like the fact of a 15yr old telling me what to do with our computer. <P>I on the other hand using what I have learned here just took it as it came and didn't LB. I walked away and then tried to talk nicely to him. What I got in return was him yelling at me and him telling me I don't have a clue as to what I am doing.<P>Last night when he yelled at me that no 15yr old knows more than him about our computer, my D(and I told her she should have just kept quiet) chimed in with "I'm sorry to say but that 15yr old does know more than you will ever know." <P>He proceeded to walk out yet again. I asked him where he was going and went to get up to get an answer and my D grabbed me and said "let him go, and hopefully this time he won't come back." This is the hardest part for me. My girls are hurting so bad from all his actions. <P>My girlfriend last night when I was venting to her told me my D showed up at her house last week(they had off due to a snow storm and H was home sick)and I was out shoveling for 3 hours. She asked my D why she was there and not playing with her sister outside and she said she just needed to get away from her house because all her father does is pick on her and she can never do anything right in his eyes. <BR> <BR>None of us do anything right in his eyes!! I have come to the conclusion that until he accepts the fact that he has a problem and gets help for it that this marriage will not survive. <P>I think its hard to make a marriage work when only one partner wants to work on things. For you, you are the one who wants to make the changes and work on your marriage for me its me who wants to do the same. <P>I have to agree at this point we are just two people living under the same roof sleeping in the same bed. The only thing here is that I am raising our two girls basically without his emotional support. Financially I am dependent on him because he has never allowed me to work. So I have to keep up a good front because I have no where else to turn. The way I look at it is there is no more partnership or marriage here. <P>All I can say is stay strong my friend and I will do the same. <P>By the way thanks for "the thanks" in your post! It made me feel like a person that could at least do something right for once!<P>falsely accused <BR>

{{{{{{{{{{<B>keystone</B>}}}}}}}}}},<P>I'm sorry for this rough spot...<P>You've got to hang in tougher...<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> <B>is not easy</B>!<P>The hardest part is to realize it isn't <B>just</B> about eliminating <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!<P>It is also about <B>wherever, whenever</B> depositing love units in to her <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A> for you!<P>It is about meeting as many of her <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> as is possible... only then can you rekindle that "passionate love"...<P>Don't give up yet...<BR>This is the time you can be the best H there ever was...<P>I'm praying for you... <P>Jim

NSR --<P>It's kinda hard to make deposits in the love bank when she isn't opening the bank. She won't let me meet her emotional needs. And, she's been non-responsive as to whether I'm meeting ANYTHING satisfactorly.<P>I'd like to believe I can hang tough, but I'm no longer sure. And, I'm tired of being the only one in the marriage that seems to care what the future holds. I'm growing tired of getting kicked in the gut!<P>FA --<P>I'm so sorry. Some of the things I say to NSR match your emotions right now. At least my kids seem to be supportive of us staying together. And, my relationship with them is much more solid. My fear is that, if my W and I seperate, I'll lose some of that. I don't want to give the impression that I am somehow abandoning them or their mother. And, I don't think it's fair or in any way constructive to try to explain the dynamics of our marriage to them.<P>One of the most amazing things I see these days is how much our friendship -- as a couple you start out as friends -- has deteriorated. Simple fact: She doesn't want to be near and with me. If given a choice between hanging out with me or hanging out with friends, I lose. Hands down. Not even close. I don't see that she wants to change it either. In fact, the appearance that I have is that she wants me to suffer, to twist. It doesn't pain her like it does me.<P>Forget counseling. That ended before the holidays. For a while, that was actualy a good thing, since we seemed to get less defensive toward one another. My blunder was that I did not insist on a great counseler, and switch when the one we had wasn't "up to par". It may not have mattered anyway since my W just went through the motions at the sessions. <P>I'm praying in my own way. I'm looking for hope. But, I'll do do with some renewed confidence in MYSELF. It's something I lost during the last few months...<P>I'm gonna try not to make that mistake again!<P>--keystone

Keystone,<P>Keep the self confidence growing. You are the one who will benefit in the end. <P>You will not lose your relationship with your kids as long as you stay the same dad you have always been. Be there for them no matter what. Call them, see them as much as possible even write to them if you have to. Just let them know that you are there for them not only as their dad but as their friend. It will mean more to them as they get older. <P>I agree with you that they don't need to know everything thats going on in your marriage. Thats not healthy for them to know. They will understand more as time goes on. Let them ask questions if they have any and try to answer them as honestly (without going into too much detail) as you can. <P>I understand exactly what you are saying about the friendship that you once had is no more. How can you be friends with someone who doesn't want your friendship? You can't! All you can do is hold your head up high and say that you put forth every effort to change and make things work. <P>I'm starting to get really emotional here so I will end this and say that I wish you the best! <P>falsely accused<P>

Keystone-<P>Oh my, I hadn't heard from you lately and really hoped you were doing better. I am so sorry to hear that defeated sound in your words. I want to encourage you to keep it up and if the banks not open do a night drop, eventually she'll have to open the vault. I realize that one can only give so long before the resentment will set in and only you will know when you have reached that point. <P>If you do let go and that is what causes her to turn around, will you still be able to be there? I guess it depends on length of time and issues in between, huh?<P>My guess and opinion is that she is starting to completely pull away due to her guilt. I would think it would be harder and harder to know you are hurting someone and continue to do the little things that could possibly give them hope. I would think that is maybe a positive thing? At least if she feels guilt she knows she is doing something wrong.<P>I agree with FA on the keep working on you angle. You can only make yourself feel better and in turn it will show to those around you, including her. <P>I wish I could make things better and brighter but alas, I have no power.<P>Just a quick question, I thought she never invited you to these parties? How did you come to attending with her? Was she possibly trying to make you feel horrible enough to make some sort of decision? If so, that was pretty chicken dooky on her part, I say, you show her, love her through it. <P><BR>If only it were that easy.<P>We had slacked off on the praying for you, we will add you back in. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Duck and Weave<BR>--Lori--

keystone,<P>I am sorry that things are worse for you, I have no pearls of wisdom, 'cause my situation is fairly similar, except I have the absentee H.<P>I do understand how you start feeling tired and feeling hurt and resentful that you have given so much that is ignored and rebuffed and allow your own needs to languish on the road side. Many of us are in the very same boat as you are. <P>The thing that has helpe dme the very most here is moving to PlanB. I was terrified of it beofre actually doing it, and now I see that this is the best coping plan there is. it removes you form the day to day problems and for us with a S in an ongoing affair, the day to day details of that, too. It has been the single most thing that has lifted me and my self-confidence in these past few weeks. I know you have your children and mine are older, so it makes PlanB a bit easier for me.<P>If you are not at the point of no return, think about PlanB...it will give you and her a taste of what divorce would be like.<P>Thinking better thoughts for you......<P>Roll Me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thanks, gang, for all the words and prayers.<BR>When I get emotional, it gets long...<P>This is long. Sorry.<P>FA --<P>I'm so sorry that your H doesn't realize that you're making the efforts to reconcile and rebuild. The fact that you've cut your ties to the old high school friend makes me proud. I'm sure it isn't easy, particularly since her gave you an adult to communicate with. However, it's for the best of your marriage if it is destined to be rebuilt.<P>If I recall, he didn't know about this friend. Instead, he accused you of having an affair without any proof. It's too bad you cannot tell him about your effort to cut ties with the HS friend since it may just validate his original suspicions. <P>Now your H doesn't just have to rebuild with you, but also with your D. Adolescence ain't easy -- on the kid or the parent. Don't lose your connection to her! I'm sure you'll do the right thing.<P>I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. <BR>I'm sure we'll talk again.<P>Duck & Weave --<P>Like Falsely Accused's H, I accused my W of having an affair. I felt I had the proof. I was sure it was an EA, and possibly moving toward a physical one. <P>My wife adamantly denied having any affair. She refused to accept the concept of an EA. She also denied a physical affair. "Other sex friends", and all the rest. You know the rest.<P>Cut to the chase: I'm not sure that she's pulling away cause of guilt. If anything, it may be because of anger and resentment for accusing her of having an affair, of destroying her "friendships", and of years of neglecting the marriage. I'll admit to the last point, and I've admitted it. I'm responsible. But, I'm not being given the chance to make good.<P>You asked a good question. It'll be hard to be open enough to take her back. I want to take her back now, but she's totally unresponsive. Part of "letting go" and moving forward in my life may not allow for a reconcilliation later. In short, I don't know what I'd do! I know I cannot continue to "pine" for her, though, and get on with my life.<P>Regarding the parties -- Yes, I had not been getting invited in the past. This was a SuperBowl Party, though, and maybe she had no other choice. <P>At Christmastime, she told her friends that I was "sick". I wasn't. She told me that she didn't want to "waste a sitter" on the their party. She made it quite clear that I was uninvited. I don't know if by the friends, or by her.<P>If I had another place that I'd been invited to for SuperBowl, I'm almost certain we would have gone to our seperate parties. Not by my choice, but by hers.<P>An interesting note: We dropped my youngest off at a birthday/Super Bowl party on the way to our event. My W was "normal" in terms of demenor. Pleasant, smiling, carrying on conversations. We didn't sit next to each other, but she seemed at ease with herself.<P>The minute she arrived at her friend's house, she changed. Fun loving partier, out came the beers, joking and clowning around. She was clearly a different person. It was like Jekyl and Hyde. She even got into the game -- AND SHE HATES FOOTBALL -- HASN'T WATCHED A GAME OTHER THAN THE ROSE BOWL IN YEARS! It was scary!<P>I do not think it was a deliberate attempt at forcing my hand at a decision. But, I was clearly the odd man out in a very small room.<P>RMA --<P>I worry about Plan B. It's always harder to rebuild if one of the spouses moves out. I would have to be the one. The appearance it gives is that I am abandoning the relationship and the family. I don't want that turned around on me. I don't want my kids to have that perception. If anything, the day-to-day problems would be enhanced!<P>I am the sole income provider, and this doesn't sit well with me. I guess I'm old fashioned. Granted, it is what divorce will be like. But, when I move out, it'll be for good.<P>I'm off for now. Thanks again to all. I'll hold you in my thoughts. I'll check in tomorrow.<P>--keystone<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited February 01, 2000).]

keystone,<P>To tell you the truth it wasn't that hard to pull away from my friend. I had my doubts about that right from the beginning. I am not blind to what was going on. I think in a way what I have been through all my life(stemming from childhood) has set some very deep trust factors into play and I have a really hard time trusting others(especially men) fully. <P>Unlike your W I really truly only have my two long time friends(H&W) and one other girlfriend who I keep in contact with. I basically have always lived for my family. I never understood why women had to go out with their friends to bars and all those things. I have always thought that would lead to trouble. I don't go out and never have. I don't hang out with these people or anyone for that fact. I am in my home 24/7 and never do anything other than the things that need to be done around here.<P>I did like when we had mutual friends and would spend time with them as a couple. We don't have that anymore. Nobody wants to be around my H because of his attitude, so we have lost all of our friends. Any friends I had when I was younger know I didn't like going places and doing things without my H. Now we have no social life at all and I really miss that. <P>I cannot promise to anyone that if my friend contacts me that I will not talk to him. My guard is up and I feel that in this situation I need that. <P>As far as me telling my H about him. He knows he exists. I have mentioned him to my H. I told H right from the beginning when we first saw each other at our kids graduation and he hugged me who he was. My H didn't want to know and didn't care because he was in a bad mood anyway. My H knows I ran into him at a local football game that I took my D to. I never hid those facts.<P>My H accused me of having a physical affair 10 months before I had even met up with this friend. So, there was no reason why he should have ever accused me. At that time I would have never even thought of the possibility of ever meeting someone that would stir up any kind of emotion in me. I was too hurt from what H had said. If anything I am the one that should be questioning him due to the fact he is the one with all these female friends that he not only emails with but takes lunch and dinner breaks with while I sit home and take care of our kids and our house. <P>A year ago when that all happened I started living for me and my girls. It's a hard thing to do when you are use to being there for your entire family. I just knew at that point that H was and had not been a real part of this family for so long that I needed to do what I had to do to get my girls back on track. Things were starting to get out of control especially with the older one. After the accusation was when this change started taking place. He didn't like it even more that I wasn't sitting around and waiting for him. If the girls had to be someplace to be or wanted to go somewhere we went, the 3 of us. They have missed out on so much in their lives because I always made everything revolve around him.<P>I think I remember you saying that this has been going on with you and your W for 2 years now. If I'm correct on that fact then your W is way ahead in this area than I am. I can see if this continues to be the pattern here in my life with my H not making any changes that it is a possibility that I might start turning to more than just the few friends I have now. I can honestly understand what your W is going through. <P>The one thing I have learned through all this is the resentment is so hard to get rid of after so much and all these years of it building up.<P>The more time it takes my H to decide to get help or to change his attitude I can see the harder it will be for the resentment to go away. Similar to what you are saying is happening to you and your W. Is she pulling away because of guilt?? I can't say for sure but in my case there is not a guilty feeling at all. It has to do more with the fact that this has been going on way too long and I'm tired. And yes sometimes I would like to see him in as much pain as he has put me through in the 14 of our 18 marrried years together. <P>It hard for me to continue to plan A... or whatever, and not LB because at this point I feel H is the one that should be fulfilling my needs. I have filled his for so many years and have never had any of mine filled at all. In some ways I think its my turn. Maybe this is being selfish. I don't know anymore. <P>I don't think H will ever have the type of relationship with our older D that she would need as his D. At this point it will take a whole lot for him to rebulid that. <P>I'm sorry that this is so long, but after sitting here crying for the past three days I'm really starting to get a little angry. I have tried so hard and I seem to get nowhere. I'm hurting so bad right now and have no place to turn. I just want it to all go away. <P>Thanks for your prayers.<P>falsely accused

Keystone, <BR> You'll have to correct me if some of the accuracy is off here, but you posted first in October. How long before that had you discovered your wife's affair? The first two months after discovery my husband had no hope of us getting back together. I was like a sister to him. He was repulsed by my touch. (Yes he used the word repulsed) He squirmed away when I approached him. We barely talked, and when we did it was superficial. He sat away from me at his parents house. Moved if I tried to sit next to him. Acted like his staying with me was some great act of Martyrdom. four months after discovery I could get next to him for a short period of time without him flinching. Every once in awhile if I caught him off guard he would squeeze my hand, realize what he was doing, and then drop it like a limp fish. Six months after discovery he started unexpectedly opening up conversation on difficult topics with me. They usually only lasted five or so minutes before he wanted to drop it again. I could be close to him longer. Eight months after discovery he began initiating affection. Sought me out for hugs. Conversations became more intimate. Well we're at the nine month marker right now. We've begun discussions about sex. He's told me he wants to stay with me. We've discussed children. We've discussed what our dream home will look like. We've discussed how to save for it. Gosh, so many times along the way I was ready to throw in the towel. I don't know what gave me the strength to stay. One of the articles here on this site talked about how the one who makes the move to elevate a level in communicating is usually the last to reach intimacy. I think the same is true of needs. The one who attempts to meet the others needs first is the last to get all of their needs met. That really sucks but it's true. You need to make what ever decision is right for you, but if my story can give you any inspiration then I am a happy woman. It can happen.

FA --<P>I did first approach my W about my concerns regarding her friendship with the OM about two years ago. I tried to be as tactful and non-threatening as I could. The whole episode made me uncomfortable, so it wasn't easy for me to do. I realized that our marriage was in a major lull, and a possible affair could occur. It just always seemed that when I brought it up, she didn't take it seriously.<P>She claimed to have "cut back" (her words) on seeing him since I voiced my concerns. If that's totally true, then they must have been spending much more time together than I originally thought given the time they were spending together after!<P>I also talked to my W about her increased drinking. I wasn't sure if it was an escape from our problems as a couple or what. But, I was certain that the OM helped foster the behavior. As I understand, he and his wife (my W's "best friend") would often come over, hang out by the pool, and drink beers and magaritas. On weekday afternoons. It was not a behavior I agree with, esp considering the tone it sets for my children.<BR>She even was taking to hiding empty bottles and used cardboard six pack holders. <P>Together with her recently turning 40, life's just been the pits!<P>She has on more than one occasion stated that she is angry and resentful for my accusations about an affair, the drinking, and her other sex friendships. She also -- like you -- sites that fact that I "phoned it in" (my words) on the marriage a long time ago -- and that I admitted to it -- just makes that anger more intense.<P>But, guilt over her "relationships" doesn't appear to be a factor. At least not what I can tell.<P>We've talked about my workaholic similarities to your H. Contributing to my problem is that my profession's "normal shift" runs 12 hours, plus lunch. Also, for a stretch of a few years, I was out of town for six to nine months per year. <P>I'm glad to hear that you've been totally honest and forthcoming with your H. Perhaps, he needs to reciprocate! I'm also glad to hear that you're awareness about a possible replationship with the old HS friend has your guard up.<P>I'm sorry about your H's relationship with your D. She's probably getting to the age where some rigidity and rebel-like qualities are going to shine through. Oh, boy. You need to maintain your relationship with her!<P>Have you tries confronting your H about how uncomfortable you are about the women at work, the relationship with your D, etc. Have you considered counseling? Would he even go?<P>BETH28 --<P>"Discovery" -- by my accounts, was confirmed on Labor Day Weekend this year. Found e-mails that my W and OM had exchanged that confirmed my suspicions. When I presented the fact that I had seen them -- even quoting from them, and confronted her about the other things (phone calls, trip, dinners and lunches, etc), she continued to deny anthing other than a close "friendship". She had even admitted that she and the OM had shared information about their spouses and marriage woes with each other.<P>About a week after discovery, I touched my W on the shoulder. It also "repulsed her" -- yes, her words, too!<P>Went to counseling -- a disaster. If anything, it probably made things worse since the counseler clearly had no plan other than to listen to us b***h. <P>I get no communication from my W regarding if I've improved or changed. Better or worse. Any info would be helpful, but none is forthcoming. <P>About the only thing she has said is that she doesn't love me anymore. She doesn't know if it will ever come back. And she doesn't believe that I could love her given the accusations that I've made, and the neglect I've made to the marriage. She's even now stated that she didn't think we ever had any passion in our marriage. And, she doesn't think that there ever will be. WOW, nice shot to the gut!<P>I'd be happy if our relationship was even as close as a brother and sister. Right now, we're merely coexisting under the same roof. I haven't seen much improvement over the last few months, other than we try to talk more civilly (is that even a word??) toward each other.<P>We've talked about some future plans, although none in a fashion that I would consider sincere. Home remodel, kid's plans, etc. I really don't know if I want to go through with any of it since I don't see any improvement. Not to mention, no communication or feedback about any progress.<P>--keystone<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited February 03, 2000).]

Hey keystone,<P>A bright spot in my day today and I hope you don't mind me sharing this news. My D called today while on her lunch break from HS, report cards came out.<P> 1 2<BR>Chorus B B<BR>English F A+<BR>Earth science D B<BR>Spanish B A<BR>World Civ C+ B<BR>Algebra B B<BR>Phys Ed A A<P>Talk about getting back on track. This is the best news I've had all week. I am so proud of the progress she has made for herself and her self-esteem is very high right now. The first thing I did when she walked through that door this afternoon is gave her the biggest hug I could wrap around her(at 14 she almost as tall as me at 5'11")! No matter what I will be there for her and she knows that. My relationship with her means a lot to both of us and I hope and pray I can keep it as strong as it is now. I just hope when her father comes home he can be as positive about this news. <P>In other news about a half hour after she called my old HS friend called(he knew report cards were coming out because his son is in the same school system and he knows she calls me from school), I was a little shocked , I didn't even recognize him at first. We talked about how she did and about his work. He asked if I had looked for a job yet, he knows I want to go back to work. He also said he bumped into one of the women(a friend of mine also) that works with H. She must have asked him if he had heard from me or was still contact with me and he told her yes that we email jokes and sometimes talk via email(which hasn't been as of late). <P>Now I thought(to myself of course)how would she know about any of this prior to asking him. I guess my H talks and asks her questions about him being this woman, OM and I all went to HS together. Hum.... makes you think, so I thought to myself she probably knows more of what going on in my life than I do. There's those double standards again! Anyway, it was a simple conversation and it ended and that was that. To tell you the truth I was crying when he called because I was so proud of my D(tears of happiness this time!). <P>On to your question about counseling thats out, he already told me he won't talk to others about his problems. Which in a way seems funny if hes saying anything to these women he takes breaks with! <P>As far as talking to him with how I feel about this break situation, I have mentioned it on occasion in a light hearted way about how it makes me feel. The thing is I didn't have a problem with it at first because he would always call me when he was on break, now he doesn't. The last time I had to go to that store for a few things I was very uncomfortable. The looks and things that I got from these women(and theres a lot of them) made me feel like running out of there and H was with me. I couldn't wait to finish and just leave. <P>Its hard to bring up anything lately with out him jumping all over me. Like I said no one here does anything right in his eyes! Since he turned 40(2 yrs ago) he has gotten worse with his attitude. What is it about this age, I haven't reached it yet, but I hope I don't go through this. <P>As far as your situation, well I have to agree with you with some of the facts that you have stated. I thnk thats where your W and I differ. The drinking(I happen not to drink at all, so this might be judgemental on my part) thing and being around these "friends" is not a good situation. I have to agree with you on that one, especially around the kids. If it started as an escape from the problems in your marriage well, then I just can't agree with it. Thats a cop out on her part. Maybe I'm just a stronger person having dealt with alcholism in my family for so many years. <P>I'm going to use a quote here from you:"she doesn't love me anymore. She doesn't know if it will ever come back. And she doesn't believe that I could love her given the accusations that I've made, and the neglect I've made to the marriage. She's even now stated that she didn't think we ever had any passion in our marriage." <P>I have been known to say the same thing to my H. I think deep down some where under all the resentment there might still be love there. That I'm not sure of anymore as much as I keep trying to make this relationship work. I can state for a fact there was never passion in our relationship. Our relationship was based on a friendship, communication and mutual respect for each other back then. I can back this up with the fact that our passion (sex life) even back then was an occasional thing(once every couple months or so). Thats something that differs with everyone, but the passion was not what our relationship was based on. Communication WAS the strong point in ours. Now that doesn't exist. <P>I really don't know what else to say to you except to keep your conifedence levels up. Maybe, hopefully something will snap in her and make her realize what she is about to lose, because you are trying. <BR> <BR>I wish my H would try as hard as you are trying to make changes. Then there might bring a glimmer of hope to me, but I have serious doubts as of late. <P>Hey this is getting way too long and I promised my D now that she brought her grades up that she can have limited time online. So I'm off to let her on. <P><BR>falsely accused<P>

FA --<P>Congratulations! <BR>To recover with grades like that after where she started in the first quarter is awesome! Esp English -- WOW! Don't know about you, but it seems like a Baskin Robbins Float is in order!<P>My kid's grades are due today or tomorrow. Waiting with baited breath... Hope we have similar success. 31 Flavors at the ready!<P>I've got to run. It's that workaholic thing again (just kidding!). Meetings and things to handle before it gets too late. You've brought up a lot of interesting things which I'd like to respond. But, let me leave you with these two questions:<P>Q1: Does a marriage need passion to survive? Would a marriage without passion been considered a good thing to both partners?<P>Q2: Do you think it's possible that one spouse feels that they are working real hard at correcting their flaws while the other partner doesn't see those changes/improvements? In other words, if I think I'm working real hard to change -- and I believe that I am changing to meet her needs -- is it possible that she doesn't see it? Like a perception thing? <P>Enjoy the night with your D, and I'll look for a post tomorrow.<P>--keystone

Hi Keystone-<BR>Your questions were thought provoking and thought I'd interrupt with my opinion.<P>Q1: Marriage without passion?<BR>Yes, I think that can be a satisfying relationship-IF-that is what a healthy, satisfying relationship looks like to BOTH partners. <BR>I think once you reach a level of passion (newly found in our case)you cannot go back. There would definately be something missing. I think in our case my H always felt like something was missing because everything just flowed not sizzled. I, on the other hand, thought our marriage was what marriage was supposed to be. I did not have a realistic view from my childhood, so ours seemed really good to me. After everything came out it seemed much easier for me to be passionate. (Like FA, I carry alot of baggage from childhood). I think at this stage if it all ceased I would be very unhappy. <P>But maybe in her case(?), it is hard to miss what you never had though.<P>Q2:Seeing a change in you-<BR>I think people see what they want to see and block out what causes contridiction in their way of thinking. I think she doesn't see it because she chooses not to, will she ever? I wish I had the answer.<P>------------------<BR>Duck and Weave<BR>--Lori--

Keystone,<P>Thanks!! Baskin Robbins sounded good if I could have pulled her away from the computer long enough to go!! LOL I guess the Milky Way bar that I had stashed away and the hug had to do. She was too busy playing a trivia game to go anywhere(actually she asked me to help her with some of the questions, it was fun!). Don't worry though this weekends ice skating is on me(I usually make her pay her own way). And those private keyboard lessons that she has been wanting are a real possibility now. <P>Well, my happiness was slightly shattered last night(not to mention hers too). H came home late as usual, with no phone call I had no idea when he would be home so I just made dinner and set it out. He walked in 5 minutes after we sat down, in a bad mood of course. <P>He sat to eat with us and the girls and I were talking about school(he doesn't ever say a word to them or me at dinner) and D mentioned about getting her report card. After dinner he said to me give me her report card so I did(it was sitting on the counter). He looked at it and turned to her and said (in a lousy tone), I told you you could do it, and then kind of flung it back to her. My heart sank!!!! I felt so bad for her. She asked me if she could call grandma(my mom) and tell her and of course grandma was happy for her so that lifted her spirits a little.<P>He then took his shower and left to go get his haircut(I made him a 7pm appt). It was almost 9 by the time he walked back in the door and I had no idea where he had been or what took so long. I asked if they were really busy up there and he said no. So who knows, I sure don't. <P>My D barely said goodnight to him before going to bed and when she came to me I just held her. It is tearing my heart right out the way he is treating these two girls. <P>Anyway on to you questions.<BR>Q1: I have to agree with D&W on that one. If there never was any passion and it was a mutual thing between partners then yes a marriage can survive that way. If there was passion at one time and it ended then its hard to go back. But then again H was my first and is my only so I never knew what passion was(and still don't). Maybe thats what was or is missing that would make that little spark. Hard one to know the answer to. <P>Q2:Ah, the changes! If the one partner is trying to change the other partner will ONLY be able to see the changes if they are open to it. I am open to it, and any slight(it doesn't last long though) changes my H has or had made I made sure I noticed and treated in him in a manner in which he knew that I saw them. As for your W, I think there is a strong possibility she doesn't want to open herself up to the changes because and (your not going to like what I have to say) shes afraid they won't last and she will just be hurt again in the long run. I can see that this is a pattern that is starting with my H. His changes are only ever good for about two weeks at the most then we are back to square one again. Its very difficult to start over time and time again. If you are persistent and those changes stay(and I mean for the distance) I don't see how she can avoid seeing them eventually. <P>A little side note here. I came on last night just to read your congrats to lift my spirits. I wish my H could have been happier for D. <P>falsely accused<BR>

Sorry gang--<P>Been really swamped with crisis mode at the office. I'll have to check back on Monday.<P>One quick thing, however...<P>FA--<P>I'm soooo sorry you and your D's great news got overshaddowed by your H's insensitivity. You and she deserve better. <P>Go out an enjoy the skating, get that Baskin & Robbins, and have a blast. If you do it without him, so be it. At least you two won't get dragged down. Plus, if you D doesn't get the positive reenforcement at such a critical time in her life, you're bound to have troubles in the near future. I'd hate to see what she'd resort to to get the attention she craves -- and deserves!<P>Talk at you Monday!<P>Chin Up!<P>--keystone<P>P.S. Thank goodness baseball season is just around the corner!

Hey keystone,<P>"I'd hate to see what she'd resort to to get the attention she craves -- and deserves!"<P>This is what I've had to deal with for the past 3 years now. She is moving in the wrong direction just to get that attention. It's not easy, especially when she is only 14 but looks like shes 16 or 17. I think in a lot of ways that is why I turned to this friend for advice(male advice). <P>Well, in spite of it all the girls went skating. They had a great time! Then it was off to take them for a treat! My younger one had a bowl-a-thon yesterday and I took her there, so its been a busy weekend. He basically sat in his recliner all weekend and didn't talk to anyone, so I just did what I had to do for my girls. <P>Have a good day.<P>falsely accused<BR>

Hey guys, I'm back.<P>D & W --<P>I guess I'd agree with something you said in response to the first question. My marriage, too, I guess just "flowed". I thought there was some passions, but our marriage was based on a really good friendship where each of the partners admired and respected the other. We had fun, got along great, had similar interests, etc. It just seems like that has all gone away now. And, perhaps that is why my W brought up the lack of passion question. Perhaps it really wasn't there for her - ever. <P>I wonder if it'll ever return/arrive?!<P>Regarding your second response, I also agree that she choses not to "see" the changes. It's funny, but I don't see her making many changes, either. Of course, since she views this as all my fault, there's nothing to change, is there? (Sorry, being Monday morning sarcastic.)<P>FA --<P>I'm glad you had the chance to enjoy some time with the girls. Sometimes just staying busy can be a break from all the troubles at home. <P>I pray that your D gets the attention, in a constructive way, that she needs. Adolensence and teen years are so tough without the added turmoils of family problems. I am dreading having to deal with these issues if my marriage fails. Both my W and I have good relationships with our kids, but in the back of my mind, I do worry what impact it might have on them.<P>Do you think counseling for your D is in order, or would that just further confuse the issue? Personally, I'm not big on counseling, but you know your situation best.<P>We also had a busy weekend. Son had two basketball games and a baseball practice and D had two softball practices and two basketball games. I coached D. Fun, but REALLY busy. I just wish that when we can get together as a family -- even at one of the kids games -- we can sit together and enjoy ourselves like we used to. Instead, my W sits at the end, usually with one of the kids to "buffer", and directs almost no conversation my way.<P>By the way, it's too bad your H cannot get more involved with your D's. It's so cool to see them in a "different lite" than just your kid. They're little (but, growing FAST) people. And, they're amazingly perceptive!<P>Back to my W -- I'm getting frustrated, but I'm also not going to get preoccupied with it all. I'm getting to the point where I'm gonna live my life, and SHE will have to chose if she wants to be part of it or not.<BR>Right now, I'd guess she's want out. Maybe the fear of being on her own scares her. It does me, too. But, I'd rather we all be happy and apart than together and miserable.<P>By the way, Valentine's Day is fast approaching. Have you been wondering what gift or card to give your spouse that won't be misinterpretted? <P>Have a good day, and I'll check back later --<P>--keystone<P>P.S. We may have to start a new thread. This one is getting LONG!

Keystone,<P>"By the way, Valentine's Day is fast approaching. Have you been wondering what gift or card to give your spouse that won't be misinterpretted?"<P>Good question. I just said yesterday how I dread this coming up. Its been very hard the past year for me to pick out a card or gift for him for any occasion. H knows I love to pick out cards and mail them for no real reason. H on the other hand usually never buys me a card or a gift(hasn't since we were first married). It's the old standard, didn't have time or like on Mothers Day, I get the your not my mother thing(never mind that I am the mother of his two girls!)<P>Lately, I have been staying with the funny cards. As far as gifts I usually stick to something I know he needs for work or something funny(christmas I bought him a 5 pack of Three Stooges Videos plus work stuff). Now if I told you what H bought me you would have the laugh of your life, so I'll leave that until you need a really good laugh! Just let me know when to let you in on that one! (In actuality I was very hurt, but had to laugh it off.)<P>It was really hard this past Oct when it was our 18th anniversary to pick out a card. How do you pick a card for someone your just not having those feelings for at that time in your life?? <P>Everything talks about how much you love that person and right now I can honestly say I just don't feel that. I did however find a card that was kind of plain and didn't buy him anything else. I think H was hurt, but to me thats what I have been feeling for all these years so it didn't let it bother me. <P>I would suggest to buy something nice but simple, if you can understand what I mean. If she is really at the point where I think she is, something too suggestive might just turn her right off. <P>How do you and your W handle these situations that require a card and/or gift? <P>As far as my D and counseling, I've thought about it. Especially being she is getting very negative about males in general. I don't want her to grow up like that. I want her to be cautious but not to have that hate towards them. We talk a lot more now than ever before, so I feel as long as D & I keep those lines open she will over come some of this. <P>The hard part is that she said to me the other day that last year when all this stuff started happening she was really worried about us getting a divorce. Now she says it wouldn't bother her, that there would be so much less stress around here if he would just leave. I think a lot of this comes from all the stress she is under with him, but it also comes from the kids in school. Everyday she is coming home and saying to me that another one of her friends parents are splitting up and divorcing. It has to be a little scarey for her. I think her sister would take it harder than her right now.<P>A couple of other things you said struck me. You say your W uses the kids as a buffer between you two. I find myself doing the same exact thing. When H wanted to take me out for dinner I make sure the girls come with us just so I don't have to be alone with him, because we have nothing to talk about anymore. <P>"I'd rather we all be happy and apart than together and miserable."<P>I had a talk with my mom the other day and she is totally against us splitting up "for the kids sake" she tells me. I would like to believe that. I told her how is staying together "for the kids sake" suppose to make everything better. I would rather everyone be happy. Kind of like what you are saying don't you think. Its hard to stay in a household where there is so much stress. I feel these kids have enough stress with all the peer pressure out there that they need a loving environment to grow up in and if thats not the case then something has to give. <P>Well now that I took a longer break than expected it back to my house cleaning before D walks in from school. <P>I'll check in later.<P>falsely accused <P>

My 2cents worth:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Do you think it's possible that one spouse feels that they are working real hard at correcting their flaws while the other partner doesn't see those changes/ improvements? In other words, if I think I'm working real hard to change -- and I believe that I am changing to meet her needs -- is it possible that she doesn't see it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Others have mentioned that one can only see what you are willing/open to see. Agreed. But, some thoughts...<BR>Maybe she is no longer looking for changes. Sometimes, if you want something for a long time, you give up, and when it happens you don;t notice it.<BR>Maybe what you are changing isn't really what she needs changed? Or how she needs it changed...<BR>To me, this is part of the beauty of the EN q;aires...you can make sure you are working on right things, the right way, and then use them periodically to measure progress. I know my H tried to improve some areas before we really sat down and talked. The imrovement was nice, but didn't really address my key issues, so it wasn;t helping a lot.<BR>Anyway, YMMV (your mileage may vary), but thought I'd pass on the thought...<BR>Kathi